Wealth Distribution

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:56 pm

Pessimism won't improve your situation, Sarvis.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:00 pm

don't limit your search to one link, do some damn research :P

you have to find what works for YOU
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:04 pm

Sarvis wrote:Again you misunderstand me. I never said it wasn't possible, just that it was _difficult_, and increasingly difficult the lower the class you are in.


This suprises you how?

The farther something is, the hard it is to get to?

And you think this is unfair?

Things worthwhile are hard to do.
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Postby Snurgt » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 pm

Sarvis, it sounds like you invested in computer science, and it didn't pan out. If you had picked something else, you may have done better. You can defer your loans due to economic hardship, for many years.

We all fail at things we try. It doesn't make it the rule.

I feel bad that you seem to feel like since you failed in this one endeavor to increase your standing in the world, that you now feel it is impossible, or at the least, extremely unlikely. It is not. You seem to feel it is futile to try, because due to forces out of your control, that is just the way the world works. It is not.

This way of thinking/feeling gives us an excuse for failure, and takes the blame off of ourselves, but it does nothing to improve our lives.

If you continue to think this way, I guarantee you will be right.

I wish you the best.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:08 pm

Oh, and Bill Gates did get that rich under his own power, as much so as anyone else gets anything.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:09 pm

... oops
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:41 pm

Ambar wrote:see .. THIS is a conversation, a give and take .. questions, comments, answers .. not jibes, jabs and retorts ...



Hey! I did too make jibes and jabs! ;)

Besides, I seem to remember you calling me a moron in this thread before I started any kind of jibes on you. I even responded normally and politely to your first post, but between that first post and now you made no effort whatsoever to take part in the discussion... you just called me a moron and kept harassing me for even _having_ the discussion.

Gotta head for an appointment now... will reply to the rest later. That was meant to be just a quick snide comment... bleh.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:39 pm

yup I have called you a moron a few times

other people have as well, its just me who gets singled out :)

that, or other people just say it nicer :P
Last edited by Ambar on Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:40 pm

Ambar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:What is the fully funded version of the amount?

Roth IRA's are fully funded at $250/month or 3k/year .. no idea if this is going to change or not


Yeah, that's a LOT of money when you make $9/hour.

noone is telling you not to pay your bills, what i AM telling you is that there are ways .. cut out a soda per day or so .. say $1/day


I live at home, my mom buys my food. I have a budget of $25 a week for entertainment purposes, which often ends up lasting for two weeks, simply because sitting here staring at a wall would be even more depressing than just being poor.

as another aside .. i dont think you are less smart for having student loan debt, i just think you got unlucky in your choice of major .. when i call you names or flame, whatever .. im merely stating that you have the tools to do better ... and it seems to me .. TO ME .. that you dont try to do better


I don't see many options out there. I'll look into the mutual fund thing though...


it IS possible if you put the blood sweat and tears into it ... dont let statistics stop you from obtaining your goals


What about past experience?

let YOU be the good example too! why not go back to school .. get your loans deferred and take some networking or whatever else classes .. and build yourself up?


Because I'm sick of school and don't want to take on any more debt, and I can no longer receive any other federal or state aid? (well, sure about state, not sure about federal...)

dont let anyone stop you ... dont blame anyone but YOU if it doesnt work


Right, it was my fault the .com bubble bursted... got it.

i personally think thats where OUR nation fails .. that people wants things to fall in their lap rather than work for what they want .. then when it doesnt they lay the blame on the government, the country, the president ...
again .. this is MY view


You mean like how the opportunity to write an operating system for IBM fell into Bill Gate's lap?

It's funny how I DID work for what I wanted but you still try to imply that I wanted everything to fall into my lap.

don't limit your search to one link, do some damn research :P
you have to find what works for YOU


If I wasn't researching it would I have gotten to that link?

Point is, you made it sound easy and reliable just like those infomercials on TV that promise everyone can make a fortune just by buying that product.

Idealism is far more dangerous than pessimism.


<b>Teflor</b>
This suprises you how?
The farther something is, the hard it is to get to?
And you think this is unfair?
Things worthwhile are hard to do.


You spend a page and a half trying to convince me how it's so easy to move up in class, and now you're saying of course it's hard?

Not to mention that you act as if everyone is trying to reach the same point. We aren't. You may be trying to get rich right now, I'm just trying to not be poor. It's a lot harder to move from, say, welfare to even a normal lower class lifestyle than it is to move from upper middle class to being rich.

Oh, and Bill Gates did get that rich under his own power, as much so as anyone else gets anything.


Ah, so then IBM is going to walk through my door tomorrow and offer me a lucrative contract which I can ride for as long as I need to make sure my company is a huge unstoppable empire?

Good to know!


<b>Snurgt</b>

Sarvis, it sounds like you invested in computer science, and it didn't pan out. If you had picked something else, you may have done better. You can defer your loans due to economic hardship, for many years.


3 years total , I have one left.

The problem isn't that I've given up Snurgt, it's that I don't see very many options out there.

Not to mention that this observation isn't based solely on my life, but on the lives of many of the people around me and articles and statistics such as I've linked to here.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:42 pm

Ambar wrote:yup I have called you a moron a few times

other people have as well, its just me who gets singled out :)

that, or other people just say it nicer :P


You were first, and it's really just been you, Teflor and Ensis.

Or at least if other people did, they were actually saying more at the time so it didn't stick as much. If you post three words to me and one is moron I'm a lot more likely to remember it than if you post 100 words to me and one of them is moron.

Not to mention that you have shown up doing that in about 4 threads now.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:49 pm

Can lead a horse to water, but we sure cant make it drink

o .. havent graduated yet ... no wonder ya cant find work :)

why did i think you were supporting a fmaily??

my mistake

think i may just be done trying to help this one ... cant help someone who wont try to help themself ..

*wave*

best of luck

don't drown in the self-pity pool tho
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:59 pm

Ambar wrote:Can lead a horse to water, but we sure cant make it drink

o .. havent graduated yet ... no wonder ya cant find work :)

why did i think you were supporting a fmaily??

my mistake

think i may just be done trying to help this one ... cant help someone who wont try to help themself ..

*wave*

best of luck

don't drown in the self-pity pool tho


Ambar, and try not to take this is a flame, you have serious problems with reading comprehension if you think I said anywhere that I hadn't graduated _or_ that I wasn't looking into the mutual funds thing.

Again, not a flame but a serious assessment of the situation.

Teflor tends to put words in my mouth too, but I think he just does it to be an ass...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:44 pm

You're full of shit as always Sarvis.

But hey, it's your financial situation.

You may very well be doomed to not moving up ever.

And you know what?

Come to your own conclusions.

Jerk.
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Postby Vahok » Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:40 pm

Sigh, I wasn't gonna post here but since I have an education in financial background and worked for major banks, I'll offer up some tips.

First off, I've been poor as hell (banks may make money but they sure don't share well!) but I found some easy ways to keep making money. Most people never look at debt consolidation loans, which is amazing as hell. Basically, snag a loan and cut up those credit cards except one for emergencies. Why people are paying 15% + on credit cards when they could get a loan for around 6% is nuts to me. Banks generally will give you a debt loan since, to be blunt, they want your money over the credit card companies. Also when paying the credit cards off, never just make the mininum payment. There are tons of research showing if you just put an extra couple of bucks on it, you can save years on interest payments. So if you owe $42 for mininum payment, kick in $45!

Next, mutual funds, GICs, etc. are a great way to save money as Ambar? stated. I find the best way is to have these deducted right from paycheck by bank or employer. You can't spend the money if you never had it I figure. Most companies offer some type of savings plan (ie. you deduct 1% for a retirement plan, they match it type thing) and I recommend taking advantage of it. Plus, you can always borrow against your funds so if you need a mortgage, car loan, etc. so they very nice to have.

People also don't understand "low ratio" debt. Basically, people go nuts putting extra payments on mortgages. But since the borrowing rate for these was around 7%, there is no point. Worry about saving, worry about the credits cards with high interest. You will pretty much always have a mortgage in life unless you have a good situation, so paying down your mortgage isn't a huge deal. I only recommend paying down the principle on a larger loan in the first couple of years. That's pretty much the only time it will make a difference in the amount of interest you pay per month. After a couple years, most of your payment goes to the principle anyways so why bother?

And saving cash is easier then it sounds. I started to bring my coffee to work every morning and lunch and I payed off two credit cards in 6 months. Yeah, I do enjoy a nice Tim Horton's coffee, but I got rid of 2k worth of debt quickly. Also, I saved all my change (lucky Canada has $1 and $2 coins!) and was able to buy all my Christmas gifts this year with rolled change. Nornally drink Coke and eat out twice a week? You're drinking Kool-Aid and eating TV dinners now if you want to save cash.

But hey, I'm also for having fun spending my money. When you're dead, we all finish with the same amount of zero! And if you owe debt, you can't collect from the dead. Just make sure you have insurance so your loved ones don't get stuck with your debt. Money comes, money goes..I don't really worry about it anymore to tell truth.


EDITED for horrible spelling..I doubt it is better :P
Last edited by Vahok on Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:You're full of shit as always Sarvis.

But hey, it's your financial situation.

You may very well be doomed to not moving up ever.

And you know what?

Come to your own conclusions.

Jerk.


Teflor,

You make big claims, never back anything up with links or evidence, restate people's point to be something you can disprove, and rarely even stay consistant. To top all that off, you think the height of debate is to simply shout bullshit and insult your opponent. You state things as facts when they are false, such as saying the USA was the biggest contributor to the Tsunami aid fund when they are actually third, then expect everything you say to be credible.

How the hell is it _I_ have the bad rep around here?

I'm not going to argue with you any more. It's not worth my time.

And that is coming from someone who LIKES to argue.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:07 pm

You have a bad rep because you're full of shit.

And yes, the US is the number one contributor of aid to the current tsunami crisis, as well as in the world at large, year after year after year, disaster after disaster.

You're full of shit.

Your information is full of shit.

Your interpretations are full of shit.

There has never been a point in debating you.
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:34 pm

The US is increasing its tsunami aid to $350 million, with it expected to exceed $1 billion by the time we're done. Its coming across the news now so no links yet.
Off topic, but yes its the US who always ends up being one of the first to give and gives the most to other countries. We didn't see anyone else lining up to help Florida when they got nailed with 3 major hurricanes this summer, or relief pouring in after 9/11. It disgusts me when people insinuate or bitch that the US not being generous enough, such as the NY Times article the other day.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:39 pm

Nevermind the cost to deploy a full carrier battle group to run aircraft, ships, personnel, and supplies 24/7.

Nevermind the costs of operating a hospital ship.

Nevermind the humanitarian supplies not specifically marked for the Tsunami crisis that are being deployed without thinking about the accounting department (yet).

Nevermind we contributed (both as a government, and contributions throughout the nation) the most initially, during, and when we're all done.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:17 pm

rylan wrote:The US is increasing its tsunami aid to $350 million, with it expected to exceed $1 billion by the time we're done. Its coming across the news now so no links yet.
Off topic, but yes its the US who always ends up being one of the first to give and gives the most to other countries. We didn't see anyone else lining up to help Florida when they got nailed with 3 major hurricanes this summer, or relief pouring in after 9/11. It disgusts me when people insinuate or bitch that the US not being generous enough, such as the NY Times article the other day.


Ok, though I would guess things like the NY times article would be based on the information that was out before right now. We certainly _would_ appear stingy by the numbers out yesterday if you ask me.

Interesting tidbit I heard on NPR this morning: Apparently the amount of aid pledged by various countries after a huge disaster is far greater than what actually turns up. They were talking about all countries, so I don't know which, if not al, countries would be to blame...

But thought that was interesting.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:26 pm

Vahok wrote:Sigh, I wasn't gonna post here but since I have an education in financial background and worked for major banks, I'll offer up some tips.

First off, I've been poor as hell (banks may make money but they sure don't share well!) but I found some easy ways to keep making money. Most people never look at debt consolidation loans, which is amazing as hell. Basically, snag a loan and cut up those credit cards except one for emergencies. Why people are paying 15% + on credit cards when they could get a loan for around 6% is nuts to me. Banks generally will give you a debt loan since, to be blunt, they want your money over the credit card companies. Also when paying the credit cards off, never just make the mininum payment. There are tons of research showing if you just put an extra couple of bucks on it, you can save years on interest payments. So if you owe $42 for mininum payment, kick in $45!


I tried to get a consolidation when things first started to look bad, and was told I wouldn't qualify. I'm guessing that now, with my terrible credit rating, I'm even less likely to qualify.

As for paying extra money, one of the reasons I've so little spare cash is that I'm paying between $200 and $300 a month extra towards them...

Next, mutual funds, GICs, etc. are a great way to save money as Ambar? stated. I find the best way is to have these deducted right from paycheck by bank or employer. You can't spend the money if you never had it I figure. Most companies offer some type of savings plan (ie. you deduct 1% for a retirement plan, they match it type thing) and I recommend taking advantage of it. Plus, you can always borrow against your funds so if you need a mortgage, car loan, etc. so they very nice to have.


Haven't had a chance to look into mutual funds yet, but from what you are saying they sound like some kind of retirement fund or very long term investment?

Can't say I like the idea of tying up money I can barely scrape up now, but if I could borrow against it even with a bad credit rating it could certainly be useful...

People also don't understand "low ratio" debt. Basically, people go nuts putting extra payments on mortgages. But since the borrowing rate for these was around 7%, there is no point. Worry about saving, worry about the credits cards with high interest. You will pretty much always have a mortgage in life unless you have a good situation, so paying down your mortgage isn't a huge deal. I only recommend paying down the principle on a larger loan in the first couple of years. That's pretty much the only time it will make a difference in the amount of interest you pay per month. After a couple years, most of your payment goes to the principle anyways so why bother?


Don't have any of that.



And saving cash is easier then it sounds. I started to bring my coffee to work every morning and lunch and I payed off two credit cards in 6 months. Yeah, I do enjoy a nice Tim Horton's coffee, but I got rid of 2k worth of debt quickly. Also, I saved all my change (lucky Canada has $1 and $2 coins!) and was able to buy all my Christmas gifts this year with rolled change. Nornally drink Coke and eat out twice a week? You're drinking Kool-Aid and eating TV dinners now if you want to save cash.


I'm already _doing_ that, to the point of moving back in with Mom and having her buy pretty much all my food! There really isn't much more I can save here!

But hey, I'm also for having fun spending my money. When you're dead, we all finish with the same amount of zero! And if you owe debt, you can't collect from the dead. Just make sure you have insurance so your loved ones don't get stuck with your debt. Money comes, money goes..I don't really worry about it anymore to tell truth.


Easy not to worry about it when you have some... heh.
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Postby Imis9 » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:33 pm

The answer is get a better job. Whether that means you have to start being creative and work harder might be part of what you need to do. If you plan to make 9 bucks the rest of your life, you're guaranteed to fail. Are you trying to become a driver for FedEx? I think you said you do data entry. I know folks that are drivers and in addition to the stock they got from the company, they also make a very good income. Giving into despair and hopelessness isn't the answer, and if you do, you deserve that fate.

"Lack of opportunity is often nothing more than lack of purpose or direction."
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:41 pm

Imis9 wrote:The answer is get a better job. Whether that means you have to start being creative and work harder might be part of what you need to do. If you plan to make 9 bucks the rest of your life, you're guaranteed to fail. Are you trying to become a driver for FedEx? I think you said you do data entry. I know folks that are drivers and in addition to the stock they got from the company, they also make a very good income. Giving into despair and hopelessness isn't the answer, and if you do, you deserve that fate.

"Lack of opportunity is often nothing more than lack of purpose or direction."
-- Unknown


Yeah, because I definately haven't been trying to get a job that's in my field for the last year and a half! :roll:

I'm getting 9 as a temp, I just passed the minimum time before I'm contractually allowed to move from temp to permanent employee and will be attempting to do so next week when my manager comes back. That means an extra 2$ an hour, though I should get more since I am more experienced at the job and know how to take care of more responsibilities that are outside my actual job description. I won't, since another girl who just went permanent did not... but it's a nice thought.

The ultimate plan is to try and get into their IT department somehow... but I haven't even seen any postings for that on the bulletin board where they post open positions. :(

I'm not without plans, as you all seem to think. I just don't have much hope for them to succeed...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:43 pm

For one, your biggest mistake was abusing your credit.

Many of the major credit cards have plans to assist you with overwhelming debt.

They maintain these programs because it is in their advantage to prevent you from filing for bankruptcy.

One program Citicards and Discover, as well as many other credit companies will allow you to set up a payment program, eliminate your interest in order for you to pay them back. This will, however, close your accounts.

It is a cost lowering alternative, and you won't be charged continuing interest, which can really pile up.

Alternatively, if your debt is so bad, you MUST get in touch with a non-profit debt management organization. They can really help you out, just make sure they aren't trying to rape you instead of help you.
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Postby Vigis » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 pm

Teflor, please qualify the deal the with the "non profit" folks that help manage debt. Unless it is a government backed agency don't touch it. By and large, these companies say they will help you settle your debt for less than you owe. . . and they do. The first thing they do, is have you stop paying all of your bills, then they wait six or nine months, after that, they go in and tell the collectors that they will give them half of what you owe. The collectors jump on it because they haven't seen a dime for so long. Meanwhile your credit is shot to shit, sure you saved a little bit of money, but now you can't qualify for certain jobs, loans, etc. It is NOT the way to handle debt. Picking up a second or third part time job is.
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:51 pm

Sarvis, it possible to declare bankruptcy while still a student, or would that screw you for getting college loans? Or maybe finish college then do that, so the only thing you'd have is the student loans? I have no clue how much debt you have so this is just a thought.

Oh yeah about the NY Times article. Yes they could say the govt was being 'stingy' by the first numbers, but that was even before anybody really knew the scope of the whole situation. Its hard to throw a huge pile of cash (not that 35 mil isn't small to start with) without knowing how much relief the whole effected area really needed. I just thought that the NY Times reporters should have more journalistic decency to give it a couple days before jumping in with a knee-jerk reaction to the initial relief funds... but then again isn't "journalistic decency" an oxymoron these days? ;)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:05 am

Vigis wrote:Teflor, please qualify the deal the with the "non profit" folks that help manage debt. Unless it is a government backed agency don't touch it. By and large, these companies say they will help you settle your debt for less than you owe. . . and they do. The first thing they do, is have you stop paying all of your bills, then they wait six or nine months, after that, they go in and tell the collectors that they will give them half of what you owe. The collectors jump on it because they haven't seen a dime for so long. Meanwhile your credit is shot to shit, sure you saved a little bit of money, but now you can't qualify for certain jobs, loans, etc. It is NOT the way to handle debt. Picking up a second or third part time job is.


Actually, those are the organizations they feature on dateline.

There are debt management organizations that provide real help. Call 'em and talk to them.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:06 am

rylan wrote:Sarvis, it possible to declare bankruptcy while still a student, or would that screw you for getting college loans? Or maybe finish college then do that, so the only thing you'd have is the student loans? I have no clue how much debt you have so this is just a thought.

Oh yeah about the NY Times article. Yes they could say the govt was being 'stingy' by the first numbers, but that was even before anybody really knew the scope of the whole situation. Its hard to throw a huge pile of cash (not that 35 mil isn't small to start with) without knowing how much relief the whole effected area really needed. I just thought that the NY Times reporters should have more journalistic decency to give it a couple days before jumping in with a knee-jerk reaction to the initial relief funds... but then again isn't "journalistic decency" an oxymoron these days? ;)


I would like to point out that $35 million was the largest initial contribution to begin with. And that's just cash.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:13 am

rylan wrote:Sarvis, it possible to declare bankruptcy while still a student, or would that screw you for getting college loans? Or maybe finish college then do that, so the only thing you'd have is the student loans? I have no clue how much debt you have so this is just a thought.


Ugh... how did everyone get the idea I hadn't graduated yet again?

I HAVE graduated, a little over a year ago in fact!

Anyways, I certainly could declare bankruptcy... I just don't want to. It's as much a point of honor as anything else right now really. Though if something happens to my current job I'll probably have to...

Oh yeah about the NY Times article. Yes they could say the govt was being 'stingy' by the first numbers, but that was even before anybody really knew the scope of the whole situation. Its hard to throw a huge pile of cash (not that 35 mil isn't small to start with) without knowing how much relief the whole effected area really needed. I just thought that the NY Times reporters should have more journalistic decency to give it a couple days before jumping in with a knee-jerk reaction to the initial relief funds... but then again isn't "journalistic decency" an oxymoron these days? ;)


I don't think it's entirely fair to expect a news source to wait several days to report on important world events...

Now with that said, they shouldn't be calling any amount of releif stingy. They should just report the amounts donated by various countries and let people draw their own conclusion when they see that the UK donated 95M and we donated 35M... heh.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:01 am

How may times do you have to be told that your facts are incorrect?

UK's initial pledge was 15 million pounds.

Roughly 28 mil us
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:30 pm

Am I the only one that feels its not the government's business to be giving out taxpayer dollars for disaster relief in another country? I am incredibly sympathetic to the plight of those in SE Asia. Thats why we have private charities, which have been taking in dozens of millions of dollars in contributions over the past week. It pisses me off that the government feels it can be so loose with taxpayer dollars.

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Postby Imis9 » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:40 pm

You're not the only one Corth, especially to areas which either have been very indifferent to us or outright hostile like the Aceh area.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:19 pm

Why am I not surprised...

Certainly helping people after a disaster would do nothing whatsoever to improve those peoples' attitudes towards us either!


It would be interesting to see just how much private charities manage to come up with. I tend to doubt they'd be able to come up with nearly the amount governments can...
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:35 pm

You might be right Sarvis.. since people have gotten used to the idea of government taking care of everything for them and no longer have a sense of personal responsibility in such matters. Another corrupting aspect of big government.

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Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:38 pm

Corth wrote:You might be right Sarvis.. since people have gotten used to the idea of government taking care of everything for them and no longer have a sense of personal responsibility in such matters. Another corrupting aspect of big government.

Corth


I was thinking more along the terms of greed dictating people hold onto every penny... but either way I guess someone with power better decide for the mensch, right?
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Postby rylan » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:22 pm

Actually I was going to donate to some charities for the Tsunami relief until I saw how much the govt already pledged of my tax dollars.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:49 pm

Population of US: 290,342,554
Amount of Aid Pledged: $350,000,000.00

Amount Each Person Paid Individually: $1.21


Yeah, I know that we don't all contribute exactly evenly. But it's probably a good rough approximation.

Also, that's the whole population rather than whole tax paying population. But even if only half the population is paying taxes at your level the government used $2.41 of your tax money for this.



Hell, even I could afford a small $10 donation! But I guess that's the kind of financial decision that'll make sure I'm always poor... just not greedy enough I guess. :(
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Postby rylan » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:40 pm

You know I would've made a huge bet that you'd come back with a post exactly like that with the pledge versus population. You obviously don't know anything about who actually pays taxes in this country if you assume that 1/2 of the population pays federal taxes.
I've given plenty to various charities over the past year, especially to help the people in Florida. The point is, as several previous posts eluded to, is that I would rather choose to give of my own free will than having my money taken and given to other countries (who don't like us to start with) when we have enough problems in this country. Not to mention if the govt takes 1 dollar from me you'd be lucky if even 50 cents gets to the necessary people for aid. Charatable organizations have much higher percentages.

Edit:
Sorry about thinking that you weren't done with college before. I was skimming through the piles of posts and interpreted some of what I read incorrectly.
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:13 pm

For me, its not the amount of money that I have an issue with, its the fact that its being given out at all. Let me put it this way. If I'm holding a client's money in escrow, and decide that it would be nice to donate a few dollars of it to charity, without asking the client if they consent to such use of their money, I will lose my license. Its not my money to give away.

Granted, the government certainly has more discretion over the use of tax money than I do with my client's money. On the other hand, when we are taxed, its generally understood that the money is being taken to be used for the benefit of those of us within the taxing jurisdiction. My feeling is that this type of government charity towards people outside of the US is outside the scope of the understanding that we have between ourselves and our government as to how our tax dollars will be spent. Now I am completely in favor of private charities collecting money from willing participants, but I do not like the idea of being compelled into making a contribution towards a particular cause.
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Postby Imis9 » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:26 pm

Will the money we're giving to the Aceh region make them like us? Probably not at all, since they are muslim rebels for the most part who have been fighting their government for years.
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Postby rylan » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:28 pm

Corth nailed it.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:44 pm

Sarvis wrote:Hell, even I could afford a small $10 donation! But I guess that's the kind of financial decision that'll make sure I'm always poor... just not greedy enough I guess. :(


Sarvis, this is more of an issue of intelligence (information gathering) than anything else.

You must have a complete financial picture, knowing what you're hauling and paying, and seeing the path of your financial future. If you have all of that information in place, yes, you can make a donation knowing full well what will happen to you in the future.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:47 pm

rylan wrote:Actually I was going to donate to some charities for the Tsunami relief until I saw how much the govt already pledged of my tax dollars.


You don't have to donate to tsunami relief specifically. Make a yearly pledge to some sort of organization, be it a local organization like legal aid, or to a national organization like the American Red Cross.

If you can spare ten bucks, that is.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:50 pm

Sarvis wrote:Certainly helping people after a disaster would do nothing whatsoever to improve those peoples' attitudes towards us either!


This is probably true. The USA provides half of North Korea's food aid. When we ship it over to the country, everything we send is wrapped in packaging labeled "USA". When the North Koreans recieve it in country, the military immediatly removes all the packaging and repacks it before it sends it out to the people the party believes to be most deserving.

Sounds unnecessary? So are most features of 'practical' communism.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:54 pm

Imis9 wrote:Will the money we're giving to the Aceh region make them like us? Probably not at all, since they are muslim rebels for the most part who have been fighting their government for years.


Likely, a good bulk of Federal Aid will be going to the UN office of Humanitarian Affairs. The money will be dispersed by that office according to how they see fit to spend it.

Aid provided seperatly by the US will likely be targeted either as the US sees fit, or in accordance to requests by allies or the UN.

Some of our Aid will inevitably end up assisting areas highly unfriendly to the United States, but we have to remember that humanitarian aid is about saving lives, feeding children, treating the sick and wounded.

If Government is good for anything, it must be for actions such as this.
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Postby Raiwen » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:25 am

Sarvis,

I've read up on this thread, and while I don't have much to add to the original topic as I feel it's been hashed enough, I would lke to offer this insight.

I've been where you are.

I haven't lived at home since 18, but I had to use the hospitality of friends and old room mates. For about 6 months, I was struggling to find a job. Any job. I, too, am in IT, and while I could say that 9-11 was to blame, I won't.

I made bad choices. I followed the wrong people to the wrong jobs, and away from my home state. However, it wasn't a mistake. I've met new, wonderful people, and my son would not be here had I not made those choices.

My home town had (0) zero in the IT market. In a town where everyone in the industry knew everyone else, your job was pretty well locked in. It took me a new state and two cities later to find a job that I was happy with.

I've flipped burgers in my past. I've mowed grass. Two years ago I gave a go at outside sales. Picture this: an IT guy, programmer, unix system and network admin by trade in an outside sales position. I had to make people like me.

Hey, it was an experience. I'm a better admin and manager because of it.

Your posts have an air of depression about them.

Don't give up. I believe you are making the right decisions. Make a budget. Stick to it. Make a budget for EVERYTHING. Even budget those chips you eat on your snack break at 6pm (if I remember you work 2nd shift).

The IT world is HARD right now. Jobs are not plentiful. Sometimes we must do other things. You may actually find something other than IT that makes you even happier. Some of our jobs are being outsourced. This, too, shall pass. Some jobs can not be outsourced (even some IT jobs). Believe it or not, the United States is a nation that enjoyes "face time". People like getting warm fuzzies from other warm bodies - not from voices coming from cold telephones.

Just as eBay has a place in the consumer world, so does outsourcing in the computer world. However, neither have spelt the doom of their industry - only augmented it.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:26 am

rylan wrote:You know I would've made a huge bet that you'd come back with a post exactly like that with the pledge versus population. You obviously don't know anything about who actually pays taxes in this country if you assume that 1/2 of the population pays federal taxes.


Wehy, I said the number would be a little innaccurate. It is probably a good rough estimate though.

Want the actual amount? How much did you pay in taxes last year? Divide that by the total amount of taxes collected, then we have the percentage of your money that was contributed to the tsunami aid.

I've given plenty to various charities over the past year, especially to help the people in Florida. The point is, as several previous posts eluded to, is that I would rather choose to give of my own free will than having my money taken and given to other countries (who don't like us to start with) when we have enough problems in this country. Not to mention if the govt takes 1 dollar from me you'd be lucky if even 50 cents gets to the necessary people for aid. Charatable organizations have much higher percentages.


On what basis are you assuming those numbers?

Edit:
Sorry about thinking that you weren't done with college before. I was skimming through the piles of posts and interpreted some of what I read incorrectly.


No big, a couple people actually got that somehow...


Granted, the government certainly has more discretion over the use of tax money than I do with my client's money. On the other hand, when we are taxed, its generally understood that the money is being taken to be used for the benefit of those of us within the taxing jurisdiction. My feeling is that this type of government charity towards people outside of the US is outside the scope of the understanding that we have between ourselves and our government as to how our tax dollars will be spent. Now I am completely in favor of private charities collecting money from willing participants, but I do not like the idea of being compelled into making a contribution towards a particular cause.


That makes a lot of sense.

I still don't mind the government using "my" money to help people whose lives have been devastated.

Besides, it really doesn't matter with Bush bankrupting our government anyway! *duck*

Will the money we're giving to the Aceh region make them like us? Probably not at all, since they are muslim rebels for the most part who have been fighting their government for years.


Umm... no logical connection there dude.

Fighting their own government would have little to do with them hating us, unless we were propping up that government.
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Postby Gerad » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:37 am

Sarvis:

I didnt know anyone else even really knew Rhapsody existed... awesome band that will never see airtime in the states under the clear channel monopoly.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:28 pm

Gerad wrote:Sarvis:

I didnt know anyone else even really knew Rhapsody existed... awesome band that will never see airtime in the states under the clear channel monopoly.


Heh... my ex-roomate is a metalhead. Rhapsody is one of the very, very few metal bands I liked.

About the only other metal band I can remember is Opeth, and that is because I hated them more than the others. ;)


<b>Corth and Rylan</b>

A couple last points on the tsunami aid thing:

1) $350M may sound like a lot, but he's preparing to ask congress for another $70 <b>b</b>illion for Iraq.

2) This is the government _you_ voted for.

I'd mention that Bush just cut the number of people elegible for PELL grants, and the size of those grants after making such a big deal about how he wants to fund education during his campaign... but that would be off topic right? ;)
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:31 pm

Raiwen wrote:
Just as eBay has a place in the consumer world, so does outsourcing in the computer world. However, neither have spelt the doom of their industry - only augmented it.


I think one of the biggest problems with outsourcing is that they tend to ship off the "easy" stuff. Which is of great concern because it would be basically the stuff an entry level person would be doing...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:56 pm

Friend of mine works for a government contractor based in Northern Virginia. Currently, he is working under contract of a government agency, reviewing code that has already been under the care of six programmers before him.

He says that there are comments all over the program made by each of the six programmers. Some new comments, some new code by each, some comments on comments, some uncommented and recommented code, neither of which works, and overall, a program that won't compile.

Here's a question.

Why not outsource this to India?

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