Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Osod
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Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Osod » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:50 pm

I've never had opportunities to make passionate speeches about community or freedom. In fact, I don't even read this board anymore, but I want to put a message out to the admins of this mud. The best way for me to do that, and make it known that you got this message is to post it here.

I love this place. Don't get me wrong. I play here on a fairly regular basis, I play an enchanter because personally, IMO, there's not a bot that can really be written for it. At least not to any helpful effect. So I can always have fun with this class. I really don't make it a point of playing other classes, except to maybe help balance the classes out, which is becoming harder and harder to do as the enchanter base is growing. But I digress.

I'm writing today to express my concern over a few of the things that have been happening for a while. I'm not really going to name names, but there are friends of mine involved, and some of them I feel are being treated unjustly.

The issue at hand is all the snooping that's been going on recently. I have one friend who has been snooped on a regular basis upon logging into the mud. I have one friend who was caught doing something he probably shouldn't have, and has since been labeled an 'offender.' I have another friend who was just accused of something. In all of these and in fact, any situation, spying on these characters has taken place. And at what cost are we doing this.

I would say that all three of these players are quality players. We should want to have them on our team. They've got personalities on the mud, people like them. They're friendly to newbies, they add to the community. However, and in no way do I really intend to demonize the administrators, I feel that snooping while well within your power, may not have been the course of action to truly better our mud. There are two things that we should have here, law and order, and a larger pbase to enjoy the glory wrought somewhere in Reston, VA (they didn't move it did they)

In one case in particular, my friend was caught aiding an alleged bot. That he was helping is bad, but isn't it more a symptom of a flawed system, that certain roles in the mud have become easier to write down a few lines of script than to actually play them? That the gameplay for some characters is nowhere near as challenging and randomized as it is for others? In the economizing his time, he may have decided something else was better for him; he may have been out flying a kite, or reading a masterpiece. Gaining the levels is nowhere nearly as fun as gaining the equipment is. And we all like pretty strings of ansi.

In fact, this should really not be the case.

My friend was caught because someone was spying on him. I know you guys are probably going to dole out some great big punishment on him for being a repeat offender and all, but in punishing him, what was really fixed? If you ban him from the mud, isn't that another player we've lost, whether it's the type you want or not? ultimately, numbers are starting to thin, you don't want to aid him in his decision to quit. Already, the idea that being spied upon is turning him off to the whole idea of the game. And the ultimate problem of a system that you CAN bot goes unfixed.

Someone was accused of leaking some info, but perhaps this is really an issue with how you handle the information. Perhaps it would be better if you maintained some sort of operational security regarding new stuff that's going in. But you can't give the secret to everyone and expect every last one of them to keep it. Also another change that you guys should probably make in your system.

Now I know that rules are rules, but it seems to me that as we grow as a community, so does our ability to examine the system. You guys wield the power, we cringe in fear of it. But you forget that as the wielders of power, your purpose is to preserve certain things on the mud, promote it and make it better, attempt to gain and retain new players as we recruit our friends, family and total strangers. But most importantly, you uphold the law, and you and you alone have the ability to enact changes as you see the need. We do our best to abide by the laws because we enjoy 'citizenship' here. And as citizens, we should have rights. A Right to enjoy the game, to pursue wealth and power, to be the best of our potential as game players.

I feel that right is infringed upon when you are able to spy on us with out what a court would define as probable cause. In a way, there should be a warrant before any trailing becomes involved, and that warrant should not be an indefinite right to watch this person, waiting for them to commit wrong. As creators and governers of this world, you should do your best to make it so that no wrong can be done. Like Benjamin Franklin once said, 'Anyone who sacrifices a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and loses both.' I really don't want to see Toril mired with discontent over your version of the USA PATRIOT act.

Often times, in doling out punishments, precedent is usually examined, to give a fair punishment that is fitting to the crime per past incidents. Perhaps you're going a little hard on these guys.

I want to say again that I love this place, and I think you guys are doing an okay job of it. I wouldn't keep coming back if I didn't feel that you guys were. However, this silliness has got to stop. Now coding a solution takes time, but in a way, you could just look at this as, you found a bug that deteriorates gameplay, and now it's time to fix it. Or you can ban two players, and make two more players feel uncomfortable enough to not want to come back. I forgot the most important reason that I keep playing. It's friends. And most of all, I don't want the politics of the mud to keep me from seeing my friends.

Osod, the Enchanter
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:22 pm

Frankly, I'm not sure you know the details around the situations you're speaking about. Lets make a few things clear.

1) Snoop is level limited, only certain trusted staff members have the ability to snoop.

2) Nobody is ever snooped without cause. All snooping is logged and reviewed to ensure that nobody is violating the privacy of our players without good reason. This principle is VERY important to me.

3) Punishments here very much take into account the past infractions of the player. The punishments are generally very light until you start amassing a bad record.

4) Botting is bad for the game and against the rules. If you choose to bot, you lose all of your rights and will be punished accordingly. There is no gray area here; I will not sacrifice the integrity of the game to try and keep a couple more people playing here. That would lead to a kind of anarchic administration style that I doubt many of you would appreciate playing under.


You concern for your friends is admirable, but perhaps you should try and get the entire story before jumping to conclusions. It might be more worthwhile to urge them to follow the simple and very old rules of this MUD instead of immediately pointing the finger at us.

I have been a staff member on all versions of Sojourn since the original TorilMUD. I've seen ALOT of bullshit and I have long been an advocate of the players' rights and a "kinder and gentler" style of administration. I can honestly say that this incarnation of the MUD embraces those principles to a degree unheard of previously on Sojourn. This might explain the shocked reactions when somebody actually does get punished - in earlier years nobody would have blinked.

I consider that progress.

Please enjoy the game and try to follow the rules. Thank you for your feedback.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Jenera » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:32 pm

That is true, hehe.
I've been here for 10 years. I remember my first character getting deleted because I was just a lvl 20ish warrior exploring and I ran into ZK when ZK used to be aggro good. I died and I panicked because I had some loaner eq on me and I had no idea how to get back or any idea how to get my corpse. A druid (I think it was) offered to help me, but he was going invis a lot and I couldn't talk to him and so I went on ooc, despite the blinking red letters it had at that time saying don't talk about mud things, and tried talking to him. I think I got warned once, but I don't remember or I didn't see it. I did it again, only because I was panicking, and I got instantly deleted. I got no sympathy.

This mud has come far. Even if it doesn't make everybody happy. If the staff just tried to make everyone happy, it would certainly go into anarchy and just a game or not, it's still a community.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:48 pm

Osod wrote:I feel that right is infringed upon when you are able to spy on us with out what a court would define as probable cause. In a way, there should be a warrant before any trailing becomes involved, and that warrant should not be an indefinite right to watch this person, waiting for them to commit wrong. As creators and governers of this world, you should do your best to make it so that no wrong can be done. Like Benjamin Franklin once said, 'Anyone who sacrifices a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and loses both.' I really don't want to see Toril mired with discontent over your version of the USA PATRIOT act.


One: This game isn't the USA... it's a game, and it's owned by somebody, thus making it open to any system the owner chooses to operate it under.

Two: They make it fairly clear that they need no probable cause, as anything that goes into their system is open for their scrutiny. In spite of that, as far as I can tell, they've been really good about not snooping in this incarnation. It's nothing like it used to be... nothing.

Three: "As creators and governers of this world, you should do your best to make it so that no wrong can be done." You're kidding, right? Not only is that impossible, it's completely unrealistic. People do wrong, they get caught, they get punished... if they know they're doing wrong then they should expect to be punished when they get caught. To expect the staff to protect players from themselves is one of the most outrageous demands I've ever heard on this BBS. That's like saying that the government's responsible for every crime committed, because they don't "fix" our system so that it's impossible to commit any kind of crime.

There are so few rules here compared to what it used to be like. The staff seems to ask very little of the players. If your friends are incapable of following even those rules, then what's next? No botting. No multi-play. Those are the two general biggies that I remember.

I'd like to add that I'm wholly against rampant snooping. I find the idea of snooping wholly distasteful, except in circumstances where the rules are posted, and there's a player who is obviously breaking them. In that case, snooping is better than deleting and banning the player's account without taking steps to make sure of the situation, don't you think?
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:19 pm

Yes bot smiting is once again being rigorously enforced. I've had 2 friends slapped on the wrist in the last week.

Your friends need to change their play style and add a new trigger:

#act {petition} {#beep}

----

I'm also getting irritated at the sudden crackdown. However, I haven't seen the heavy handed administration that we've seen in the past either. I have always found that the administration gives frequent warnings and is very light for your first couple of infractions.... its only after you've established a history of rule abuse that they smite you which is more than generous.

The thing I am most concerned about is this concept that you can be botting even if your not running any triggers. Things like skill practicing on wraithforms, grouped following and getting exp even though your not sending any commands to the mud.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Osod » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:41 pm

my apologies, I was sleep deprived, and later after a nap, I realized how stupid half of this must've sounded. Anyhow, this case was just an example, however, I have heard of other snooping incidents involving who I think of as law abiding mudders with high notoriety.

A thousand pardons, I've definitely become the horses ass today
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Postby Shar » Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:56 pm

Just to clarify, this "crackdown" has been policy since the beginning. The only reason it seems to be more apparent lately is because there have been a rash of botters. If you bot, stop. If you don't, you'll be caught. When you get caught, you'll be punished. The rules are simple and they are *very* easy to follow. The spirit of the rules should be realized and adhered to, not nitpicked and overanalized. There is no way to make a rule or change a rule for every single situation. Its why we have a disclaimer which states : "These laws are subject to change at any time without warning and may be amended based on the situation at hand and as unforeseen situations arise. The interpretation of these rules and how they apply to player situations is SOLELY at the discretion of the TorilMUD Staff."

If you can't follow the rules, play somewhere that would allow you to do what you'd like to do. Not in a mean way, but if you want to break our rules, you are being a problem which indicates that you probably aren't happy here. Evaluate what you want on the mud vs. what you get on the mud. It may just be time to move on. If not, you can adapt to rules. Everyone lives within rules in one way or another. This is not new nor is it invasive. Our rules for players and Staff guidelines are *extremely* non invasive. If you don't like it here, chances are, you enjoy a non controlled environment found in online shooter games (such as Wolfenstein online or Counterstrike).

We love our players but we will not amend GOOD policy for the exception. Honestly, the exception is why the rule was created in the first place. We will protect the functionality of the game along with the majority of non-rule-breaking players. We *always* will. This aspect of TorilMUD will *never* change. Nothing has changed about the way we police since TorilMUD opened. It must be the players that are doing the changing. It is only natural to change, no shame in it, but don't do it to the detriment of the entire community. If you do, (like the rules say) you will be given a suitable punishment.

In the end, it boils down to enjoyment. *hugs* and enjoy your time here. It should be a hobby not a source of stress. We want you all to be happy and feel at home. Just keep in mind that our home, while beautiful and vast, has rules, just like IRL. In my house, you don't track mud all over my carpet and then lie about it and refuse to clean it up. Nor do you call me names for having the mud in my yard to begin with. I could get rid of the mud, but I can't stop the rain from bringing it back. The mud is *always* there. You know it is there so stay clear of it. Don't track it into my house.

anyway, this turned out to be a much longer and lamer post than I intended, but these issues pop up and need attention, so you got it. :)

I really do love all the players here but some of you (if not most of you) don't care or believe that. You are just here to have fun, so go! Stop reading and go play :)

LAST NOTE, promise!! Remember, if you are having trouble, we are here to help, not to hinder. If you feel hindered by us specifically, you have choices. You don't have to abuse the rules.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

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Postby Shar » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:01 pm

Ok, i lied. It wasn't my last note. Kiryan, your post is over the line but I'm leaving it up unedited because I wanted to let others see what a perfect example of manipulation of rules you gave us. Thanks!
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Snurgt » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:40 pm

Osod wrote:I play an enchanter because personally, IMO, there's not a bot that can really be written for it. At least not to any helpful effect.


pm me for trigs
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Diel » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:44 pm

Osod wrote:I play here on a fairly regular basis, I play an enchanter because personally, IMO, there's not a bot that can really be written for it. At least not to any helpful effect. So I can always have fun with this class. I really don't make it a point of playing other classes, except to maybe help balance the classes out, which is becoming harder and harder to do as the enchanter base is growing.



Lies. Chanters are one of the bestest botting classes and I've been busted enough times to prove it! :D

So yeah... teh pbase is slowly eroding to nothing because people don't have time to xp anymore. Bots rule! Go bots!


I'm out.
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Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'

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Postby Diel » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:47 pm

O yeah one more thing related to my last post. Names have been edited due to recent whackings. And FYI I was at the keys during this just to demonstrate:D

Gaiboi enters from the east.
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Gaiboi tells you 'ds'
c 'dragonsc' Gaiboi
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std > You start chanting...
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: dragonscales *
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: dragonscales
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
Gaiboi's skin transforms into hard-plated dragon scales.
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Gaiboi tells you 'blur'
c 'blur' Gaiboi
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std > You start chanting...
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: blur **
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: blur *
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
Gaiboi's form becomes blurred and difficult to make out!
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Gaiboi tells you 'haste'
c 'haste' Gaiboi
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std > You start chanting...
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: haste **
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
Casting: haste *
< 733h/733H 523p/523P 132v/132V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
Gaiboi starts to move with uncanny speed!
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:54 pm

The problem, Osod, is with what you believe the 'problem' is.

Where you say that to punish those who break the rules does nothing to fix the inherant flaws in the system,

I feel it is my due diligence to remind you that fixing the system will do nothing to fix the inherant flaws in the players who seek to abuse it.

*two solid clinks in the jar, accompanied by some rattling*
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:11 pm

Just thought I'd give my thought on botting. Skillbotting.

You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

I am praccin hide right now. in 2h 7m I have notched from 77 to 79.

You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

< 371h/371H 114v/114V P: sit > You stop trying to hide.
You attempt to hide yourself.
!

I have 20 hours of skillprac left, for hide alone.. gotta go back watching my screen.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:53 pm

Wonder why so many people are botting?

That's a rhetorical question. Here's another.

Which is better, 100+ logged in complaining or 25 logged in who are praising?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:35 am

What if 75 of the 100 are botting?
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:48 am

If this were old school Toril, so many people would have been deleted because of this thread that the Jedis would have felt it.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:51 pm

How odd. I managed to do every bit of my skill practice while I was at keys. Sometimes I'd just spam in commands and sit there while watching TV and glancing at my screen, sure, but it never really seemed like the brutal torture people tend to make it out to be, even if practicing 'hide' is the loneliest skill practice there is. Yes, yes, I'm just a rogue, but since that was the example used above, that's what I'm responding to.

Except detect/disarm traps, that is. It's like taking cod liver oil, I tell ya! But I guess that's the whole point of working towards a goal, no?

Anybody else notice this trend where the people who did it ages ago had to do it with more steps, more rules, harsher punishments, longer times, etc, etc, etc, and managed to do it just fine, but as things are made easier and easier, more and more people tend to bitch about how hard it is? It doesn't get much easier than what it is now, without just handing new characters all their maxed skills as soon as they roll.

Uphill... in the snow... both ways, dammit!

Oh, by the way, Osod... hats off for that reply.
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby Ihazim » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:27 pm

i heard most of the older rogues had a much easier time practicing assassinate. i would trade all of my skills for a few notches in assas. if i still played :p.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:35 pm

I was just having a discussion with another player, and felt the need to boil down what I've been saying all this time, just in case anybody has ever missed my point.

The easier this game gets, the more we seem to attract people who only want to bitch about how hard it is. The easier it gets, the more whining we hear about difficulty. The easier it's made for the players, the more the players seem to think everything should be handed to them, instead of them having to ::gasp:: WORK for anything, or make any kind of investment into their gameplay.

Once upon a time if you got one character to level 50 in a year's time, it was considered an accomplishment. Now half the people who are bitching the hardest have multiple level 50 characters, and it's still not easy enough.

When is this game going to stop pandering to the people who feel like they deserve something for nothing? The more you give 'em, the more they think they should have had.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:52 pm

What she said...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Gura » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:18 pm

Shevarash wrote:3) Punishments here very much take into account the past infractions of the player. The punishments are generally very light until you start amassing a bad record.


but ssissiv had no previous infractions!
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:14 pm

Gura wrote:
Shevarash wrote:3) Punishments here very much take into account the past infractions of the player. The punishments are generally very light until you start amassing a bad record.


but ssissiv had no previous infractions!


Ha ha, check out Gura trying to get the thread downgraded like himself. :)
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:20 pm

Ssissiv had a record that was 22 counts of pkill long. :P
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Postby Diel » Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:53 pm

wow 22 counts of pkill :P

that makes my problems sound so mild :D
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
Jenera
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Postby Jenera » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:01 pm

I wonder if anyone noticed that Osod apologized for posting what he did, yet everyone is still posting about what he said.

Hehehe, I'm feeling ornery today.
Memorable Quotes from TorilMUD Gathering 2006



Sotana sez, 'I'll take it dirty.'

Teflor sez, 'Bobo, show me on the doll where the barbarian touched you.'

Duna sez, 'Is there anything else that needs to go in my backend?'

Pril sez, 'I'm too pretty to go to jail.'

Boboloppe sez, 'The only reason I joined Imphras was because of Sotana's ass.'
Gura
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Postby Gura » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:42 pm

Shevarash wrote:Ssissiv had a record that was 22 counts of pkill long. :P


oh cmon they all got ressed! we were RPing! :)
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Pril
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Postby Pril » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:06 pm

I personally felt that Osod's apology was NOT heartfelt. I think he "apologized" just to stop the thread, seeing as it didn't work all i have to say is he's a witch! brun him! BUUUUURN him!

*nod self*
Jenera
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Postby Jenera » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:35 pm

Pril, I'm going to feed you lots of pork when you get here. Maybe that will make your brain work right! ;)
Memorable Quotes from TorilMUD Gathering 2006



Sotana sez, 'I'll take it dirty.'

Teflor sez, 'Bobo, show me on the doll where the barbarian touched you.'

Duna sez, 'Is there anything else that needs to go in my backend?'

Pril sez, 'I'm too pretty to go to jail.'

Boboloppe sez, 'The only reason I joined Imphras was because of Sotana's ass.'
rylan
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Postby rylan » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:15 am

Mmmmm pork
Ruxur
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Postby Ruxur » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:16 am

LIES!


mori is the one that kills the pbase!
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'
Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'
Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'
Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
shalath
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby shalath » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:51 pm

Osod wrote:We do our best to abide by the laws because we enjoy 'citizenship' here. And as citizens, we should have rights. A Right to enjoy the game, to pursue wealth and power, to be the best of our potential as game players.


A mud can survive without players. It cannot survive without immortals.

If you have a good team of immortals, and if they create a world which is good, players will appear. "If you build it they will come".

Simply playing a game does not give you any rights.

Spending your time to improve your own character does not give you any rights.

Investing thousands of hours to gather equipment for yourself does not give you any rights.

-thalash
[Profile edited by Board Admin. If you can't be civil, we'll fix it for you. -ed]
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:05 pm

If you're going to apply the label of "bot" to certain triggers, like attacking a mob, casting a spell, or things like that, then you might as well ban the use of anything but telnet. It seems to me that you're picking the triggers that make the most boring part of this game a little more bearable, while allowing the ones that give us power in zones to remain. Fix the way we do exp, and the botting won't be as big of a problem.
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Postby Hyldryn » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:36 pm

Funny thing about that, you can be botting using telnet. Ain't that right? :roll:
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bottage

Postby muma » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:07 am

Hi, i have never botted before, but i don't see why it matters if other people do. I mean, people have their own way of playing. i don't know what's exciting about botting, because well, the person isn't even there right? but why is it such a big deal that someone is not interactively playing? it's not hurting anybody right?

all i'm saying is, why does anyone care?
Es gibt keinen Löffel!
Miax OOC: 'Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Shevarash.'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:15 am

Hyldryn wrote:Funny thing about that, you can be botting using telnet. Ain't that right? :roll:


Technically you're _always_ using telnet... it's a protocol. ;)
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Snurgt » Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:07 am

shalath wrote:A mud can survive without players.


Sounds like a fun place. I think i'll go play solitaire.
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:39 pm

shalath wrote:
Osod wrote:We do our best to abide by the laws because we enjoy 'citizenship' here. And as citizens, we should have rights. A Right to enjoy the game, to pursue wealth and power, to be the best of our potential as game players.


A mud can survive without players. It cannot survive without immortals.

If you have a good team of immortals, and if they create a world which is good, players will appear. "If you build it they will come".

Simply playing a game does not give you any rights.

Spending your time to improve your own character does not give you any rights.

Investing thousands of hours to gather equipment for yourself does not give you any rights.

-thalash


I don't know that i agree that a mud can live without players.

I sure as hell don't beleive that "if you build it they will come" There are thousands of "good" muds out there that no more than 5 people play 3 of which are the gods who code the mud.

Nothing will kill a mud faster than immortal abuse. coder exploits, a mystra personality, and stripping players of their "rights". And players rights inculde being treated fairly by the immorts and retaining things you have earned (chars, equipment). This also includes having gods fix broken things and reimbing you when you got fuxord by their broken things.

You may not think its fundamental for success, but I firmly believe that players must have rights inorder for a mud to survive.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:04 pm

Congratulations to everyone for completely missing the point and the opportunity to have anything useful come out of this thread.

While I'm not particularly looking forwards to defending either players or the administrators of the mud, nor am I looking forwards to attacking them, there's a few simple things that must be said about where we all stand.

The playerbase as it stands is pathetic. 25 zmud zombies, 25 diehard fans, and about 75 casual players that watch idly bemused as we discuss how the administrators of the game are unfair to a select few, while everyone else feels that they have been treated fairly. We listen as everyone else complains about how zones are too easy and everything is unfair.

The best thing you all can think of to do is bot, and cry foul that 'the mud made you do it'. It's called an imagination, something many of you players are fully lacking. This is a fantasy setting, the features such as the racewar built in to facilitate role playing. Taking us into a world where no, not everyone can "git along" and elementals don't always behave as we would like them to.

In the meanwhile, the game languishes, staring down a crossroads with so many directions to take in which to develop upon the mud and make the game more interesting. There's the concept of kingdom code, player alterable environments, and so many other cutting edge ideas that could alter the landscape of our gaming and attract hundreds of fresh faces.

And the immortals want to hire more Admins? Helloooo?

Now to the point:

The administrators of the mud are fully in the right to aggressively enforce the rules set down in the mud.

However, I recommend highly that they use restraint. Benevolent administrators do not foster encouragement for cheaters, but provide professional assistance to legitimate players.

If you see someone using a tank by telling them what to kill, do not delete them both off hand. Jail them both, and mwrite them a specific statement as to why they have been jailed for a specified amount of time.

If you see them later, give them a chance to defend themselves before deleting. Handing down punishment on the spot has never been a good way to handle things. Sort of like a judge, jury, and executioner.

As for the players, shame on you all. I hope they downgrade all your 'elite' equipment and hide all your quest mobs.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:53 am

Ashiwi wrote:Once upon a time if you got one character to level 50 in a year's time, it was considered an accomplishment. Now half the people who are bitching the hardest have multiple level 50 characters, and it's still not easy enough.


I think you've got a two-headed problem here. Yes, when I played Sojourn, having one level 50 character was a really big deal. I can probably count the number of people who had multiple level 50s by the end of S2 without taking off my shoes. Judging by the who list, and talking to old friends, it seems like experience is much easier now than it used to be. When I leveled, you did 45-50 in zones, wizzies, elites, or soloing Tower. Doesn't seem like that's the case anymore, but skill practice probably HASN'T sped up any. So while it took me 9 months to get Ragorn to 47, my skills were nicely maxed when I got there from constant use. With easier exp, you have to PRACTICE skills, something which is quite boring and arduous. So, in a way, easier exp is what's causing the angst over skill practice.

The other blade of the sword is that the lower playerbase almost forces players to have multiple level 50s. When there were 150 people online all the time, forming groups was easier. With 50 people on, you've gotta pull out your cleric/enchanter/warrior whatever the group needs. So now everyone's dealing with maxing skills on not one character, but two or three.

The result of all of this is a lot more skill grinding, and that's probably what's causing all the bot angst.

I've got no solutions, just observations.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:07 am

yes, you have people pleveling to 50 in under 5 pdays now .. their skills suck but .. gee damn they have a lvl 50 something they cant play :)

gleader 'warrior x you are on rescues"
warriorx 'errm rescue only at 35'

gleader 'rogue y, sneak/hide to the middle of zone umptysquat'
rogue y 'hidden?'
rogue y leaves the group.
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:12 pm

Ambar wrote:yes, you have people pleveling to 50 in under 5 pdays now .. their skills suck but .. gee damn they have a lvl 50 something they cant play :)

gleader 'warrior x you are on rescues"
warriorx 'errm rescue only at 35'

gleader 'rogue y, sneak/hide to the middle of zone umptysquat'
rogue y 'hidden?'
rogue y leaves the group.


hell yes.

Or they dont even know how to follow a bash assign or when to garrote, or when to breach.

Make exp hard. It should not be possible to get to level 50 within a year unless you are ELITE.
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Pril
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Postby Pril » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:02 pm

I've also heard this:

PaladinX: "Please fix paladins they can't ride indoors!"
Gods: "What's your mount skill at?"
PaladinX: "12, why, does it matter?"

and ofcourse the altime favorite:
Groupleader: "Gormal bash 1.priest"
Gromal: "My bash is 10 but my hitall is 99, i'll hitall instead!"
Groupleader: "*sigh*"

Ya rock gorm :p *pet*
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:29 pm

Two Zones that Absoultly MUST Die:

DS
Ship

Graveyard (Zombies S of WD) needs a huge zombie xp downgrade. I mean, when you're two levels above them playing a grey elf caster, you still get 1-2% off of 'em.
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Diel » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:40 pm

Snurgt wrote:
shalath wrote:A mud can survive without players.


Sounds like a fun place. I think i'll go play solitaire.



got room for another?

and btw, you try playing the same game for over 10 years and see how much you enjoy doing xp over zoning. the reason for having multiple lv50s is so that groups are more flexible and you don't have to sit around and wait for hours for someone to log on to get a freakin group moving. so whine whine whine blah blah blah shut up and quit calling us cheaters because some of us would like to stay around and enjoy the game just as much as everyone else, but we just don't have time to do everything while at the keys. i'm sure most "cheaters" would agree with me, otherwise screw off cuz we don't wanna hear it anymore :P

kthx luv u byebye
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Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby Snurgt » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:32 pm

Diel wrote:got room for another?


Of course! Plenty of room on the server. :wink:
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Postby Imis9 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:34 am

Just remember a few things. Players doing xp means that there is an available pool of players to find when you want to form a group. Also, if you make xp harder, there should be more low and mid lvl folks doing xp. I think that's why alot of new folks don't stay, they have no one to hang out with.
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Re: Please stop the snooping, you're killing our pbase

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:53 am

Diel wrote:so whine whine whine blah blah blah shut up and quit calling us cheaters because some of us would like to stay around and enjoy the game just as much as everyone else, but we just don't have time to do everything while at the keys. i'm sure most "cheaters" would agree with me, otherwise screw off cuz we don't wanna hear it anymore :P


"I'm sure most 'cheaters' would agree with me."

Yes, llike minded people would tend to agree.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:44 am

Imis9 wrote:Just remember a few things. Players doing xp means that there is an available pool of players to find when you want to form a group. Also, if you make xp harder, there should be more low and mid lvl folks doing xp.


the group exp penalty must go away or making exp harder will just make people get more restrictive on group membership. the right 2 or 3 man exp group will do far better % per hour than a 6 or 7 man group especially for certain classes even in DS.

Imis9 wrote:I think that's why alot of new folks don't stay, they have no one to hang out with.


Yep, because no one wants to group with them. They are a liability. First you have to hold their hand, tell them where DS is or how to get onto ship ect. Second because they are dragging down everyone's % per hour.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:26 pm

New people are a liability because you have to hold their hand? Isn't that called an "investment?" Everybody out there who enjoys spending every spare minute in this game should be happy to make that investment, because it has the potential to increase our pbase.

Certainly anybody who has ever complained about the lack of pbase wouldn't see new players as a liability, but as an opportunity. Wouldn't they?
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby rer » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:35 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Certainly anybody who has ever complained about the lack of pbase wouldn't see new players as a liability, but as an opportunity. Wouldn't they?


The Mudder mind is not nearly as logical as you give it credit for Ashiwi.

I agree with you, one would _THINK_ that the prospect of increasing the PBase would be enticement to help newbies, but it has been my experience that there are about 10 players dedicated to the cause of helping new players, and most of those, only when they are approached by the newbie.

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