FIONA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Larem
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FIONA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Larem » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:31 pm

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......Fiona Apple is hawt!


FIONA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby rer » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:21 pm

ROFL. And, yes, yes she is!!!!!
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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:23 pm

Just think, if you actually flew to New York for that protest to release her new album ... that extra body to bring the count from 6 people to 7 people just might have pursuaded the Sony Execs !!

:(
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:32 pm

As hot as a Cardboard Match! The wooden ones would make her look too fat.

Grummy
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Postby Larem » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:16 am

don't be insultin my FIONA!!!!!

and, had i been able to take time off work, and still pull in the cash to pay the bills that got racked up when my dad had his heart attack, then i woulda been at the NY protest, what really pisses me off though, is all you NY mudders who didn't show up, like RYLAN!! um....forget who else is a NY'er

MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

F I O N A ! ! ! ! !
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Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:04 am

I thought Rylan was in Maryland...
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Postby rylan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:09 pm

Wow both of you can't read which state I'm from! :P
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Postby Kifle » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:28 pm

Wrong! It's not that we can't read, it's that we just don't care. Now get back in the hole before it gets the hose again!
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Postby Ambar » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:33 pm

is it her waiflike appearance? the fact she has less figure than most 13 year olds? what is it that appeals ..

great voice .. but i dont see the appeal ...
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:46 pm

Ambar wrote:is it her waiflike appearance? the fact she has less figure than most 13 year olds? what is it that appeals ..

great voice .. but i dont see the appeal ...



Not all guys think giant boobs are the epitome of all that is woman.

Granted, I haven't SEEN this girl since I was 13... but I remember thinking she was hot. Maybe it was just the fact that she was wearing practically nothing in her video... ;)


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Postby rylan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:19 pm

Ambar wrote:is it her waiflike appearance? the fact she has less figure than most 13 year olds? what is it that appeals ..

great voice .. but i dont see the appeal ...


Yeah shes too waify for me. Maybe if she had a few curves and a less boney face.

Sarvis wrote:<b>rylan</b>

Massachussettes. Do I get a prize? ;)


Nope! :P
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Postby rer » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:47 pm

I like 'em skinny, with small boobs personally... and 5'4" is almost too tall... I'm weird tho, I guess... I just have a thing for small chicks. (I'm 6'2" for the record)
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Postby Larem » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:11 pm

Ambar wrote:is it her waiflike appearance? the fact she has less figure than most 13 year olds? what is it that appeals ..

great voice .. but i dont see the appeal ...


okay, ambar, let me put it this way, guys, all guys, prefer women who aren't obese, and have small natural boobies. It's the guys who can't attract these women that settle for the one's who aren't quite what they dream of. Just like rer, i'm a man, and i like slender women with small boobies. There isn't a man alive who would pick the "perfect woman" who doesn't have those 2 qualities. As for fiona, the fact that she is talented, and can make money, is just an added bonus!!
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Postby Pril » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:17 pm

rer wrote:I like 'em skinny, with small boobs personally... and 5'4" is almost too tall... I'm weird tho, I guess... I just have a thing for small chicks. (I'm 6'2" for the record)


For the record Rer likes 12 year old boys.

*duck*

Nah i'm with them on this one. Big boobs can be fun to play with for a while but in the long run i think most guys prefer petite girls.

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Postby Larem » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:30 pm

and by petite, pril means not fat, sorry kifle, you were just a high school fling, i hope our relationship has had no long term effects on your lifestyle. Someday I will grow up and realize how I took advantage of you in your "I'm a fatty who no one likes" stage. But, for now, I'm disregarding any responsibility for your depression that lead to even more massive over eatting and lack of showering.
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Postby rer » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:32 pm

Hrm... When I met Kifle, it smelled like he hadn't showered in years - last time must have been during your "little" fling in HS Gerin... :P
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:49 pm

Pril wrote:Nah i'm with them on this one. Big boobs can be fun to play with for a while but in the long run i think most guys prefer petite girls.

Pril



Agor tells you 'speaking of which, gods should make it so there's a like 1% chance that when you relo your close don't (kinda like a messed up beam me up scotty) :p'

And chicks prefer guys who aren't Star Trek geeks.

You guys just keep going, and don't forget, I've seen pictures of most of you, if not met you in person. Listening to some of you talk the way you do is a real hoot.
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Postby rylan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:31 pm

I actually like longer legs, so taller women are good. As for boobs, I don't want huge or anything like that since they end up sagging to the floor :P
I'd take nice C or Ds over flat As, especially if they aren't all saggy. Either way its gotta be natural.
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Postby Pril » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:34 pm

oh too true. They have to be natural.
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Postby Vahok » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:33 pm

Big and tall. Short and small. I like them all.
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Postby rer » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:22 pm

You may like 'em all Big V, but yer lucky if you can get ANY! :P
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:44 am

I don't understand the *perfect* woman thing, since none of us are perfect. Seems the geeky or ugly guys talk the most smack about women. I am neither fat nor thin, but *someone* finds me sorta perfect ...

100% agree on the natural thing, do NOT understand the women who pay thousands to make themselves into Pamela Anderson Lee (MTV's I want a Famous face) ...

The average woman is neither fat nor thin, but TV and other propoganda dictate we should be grossly thin, like the models and .. girls like Fiona (is she anorexic by the way?? any story I seemed to Google had anorexia somewhere related to her name)

It gets so bad that it turns into eating disorders ... a girl at work wore a girdle and drank slim fast at the beginning of her pregnancy so she'd stay thin ..

I'd personally like to see the girls you guys end up marrying :P bet it's not the childlike girls ya date :P ...... and we all saw the pics of girls Rer made out with (buahahahah)

-my two cents, dont take any offenser cause none was meant (except for Larem .. his obsession for some girl built like a little boy scares me)
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Postby Duna » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:48 am

Ashiwi wrote:
Pril wrote:Nah i'm with them on this one. Big boobs can be fun to play with for a while but in the long run i think most guys prefer petite girls.

Pril



Agor tells you 'speaking of which, gods should make it so there's a like 1% chance that when you relo your close don't (kinda like a messed up beam me up scotty) :p'

And chicks prefer guys who aren't Star Trek geeks.

You guys just keep going, and don't forget, I've seen pictures of most of you, if not met you in person. Listening to some of you talk the way you do is a real hoot.


I gotta agree with Ashiwi on this one.. after havin met some of ya it is funny how yer talkin :)
And I want a definition of 'petite'... at least from yers guys' perspective....
I know in some ways i'm considered petite because of how short I am.. but i wanna know what you guys think petite is...
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Postby sok » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:02 am

i'm 5'4" but my nickname in elementary school was short round. now i have a eating disorder, where i eat 2-3 meals a day without stopping to count calories. sometimes i feel bad and drink soda cuz i can't stay the tasteless water anymore. once, i was so hungry i fished kiryan's pet catfish out of the dumpsters, cooked it, and served it for dinner. it's all cause people called me short and round. why couldn't they call me big and long?

sok, dang my parent even gave me a short name, i'm gonna need to buy a big suv or truck or something.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:11 am

What Pril means by 'petite' is 'non-threatening'.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:35 am

Ambar wrote:I don't understand the *perfect* woman thing, since none of us are perfect. Seems the geeky or ugly guys talk the most smack about women. I am neither fat nor thin, but *someone* finds me sorta perfect ...


That's because the non-geeky or ugly guys are too busy sleeping with those perfect women to talk smack...

100% agree on the natural thing, do NOT understand the women who pay thousands to make themselves into Pamela Anderson Lee (MTV's I want a Famous face) ...


"the fact she has less figure than most 13 year olds?"

Sound familiar?

I'm fairly certain that 90% of the insecurities women feel and try to correct through makeup/surgery/dieting are caused by other women. Your comment almost certainly would make some girls feel like their chests were too small. Me, I kinda like small boobies. Most, seriously almost all, guys will agree that small natural breasts are better than big fake ones. But you get the girls out there saying those girls look like little boys, or have no figures and such. If a guy dates a non-voluptuous girl a lot of women will rag on him saying he wants to date little boys.


The average woman is neither fat nor thin, but TV and other propoganda dictate we should be grossly thin, like the models and ..


Correction, the average non-American woman is neither fat nor thin. Far too many Americans are getting far too fat, let alone just women.

Of course, these days we know things like if you eat right and excercise you might end up looking like Jennifer Garner. IF you sit around eating Doritos and bob-bons you end up looking more like Roseanne. There's a middle ground there where women can still be fairly attractive, but frankly I think that's VERY difficult to find. Not to mention that if you're in that middle ground when you're young the chances are you'll just keep getting bigger when you get older. Especially if you're in that middle ground because you're sedate and like junk food.

girls like Fiona (is she anorexic by the way?? any story I seemed to Google had anorexia somewhere related to her name)


Another chance to degrade your fellow women? Anyone who isn't carrying around an extra 20lbs must be anorexic, right?

My quick google didn't show anything about anorexia, and searching for "'Fiona Apple' anorexia" only came up with one site in which she was being interviewed by Dr. Drew and they jokingly asked her about it.


"It gets so bad that it turns into eating disorders ... a girl at work wore a girdle and drank slim fast at the beginning of her pregnancy so she'd stay thin .."

That's insane.

Don't blame men. Or the media.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:37 am

Ambar wrote:I don't understand the *perfect* woman thing, since none of us are perfect. Seems the geeky or ugly guys talk the most smack about women. I am neither fat nor thin, but *someone* finds me sorta perfect ...



Naw. Ambar's Ship-Shape.

And Sarvis, while your criticism is pretty, you manage to lack any real relevence, much because you never suggested what a true cause might be (read on, you'll need the rest of this before you hit the reply button).

Eating disorders being diagnosed are on the rise, so is the effect of such issues becoming more pronounced in society - and yet treatment options are as limited and immature as they have been when the problem was first noticed with the clinical community unsure of the causes and suggesting such dubious treatments as hypnosis to tend to the sufferers.

Honestly, your attack on Ambar's input was - for the most part - ineffective. All you've really got is "Don't blame men. Or the media."

While you say that "I'm fairly certain that 90% of the insecurities women feel and try to correct through makeup/surgery/dieting are caused by other women."

Quite frankly, Sarvis, why do you think women are so competitive amongst each other? Answer that, and you've got yourself a real argument.

(Nevermind that we haven't even broached the subject of genetics or chemical/biological influences.)
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Postby Duna » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:49 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ambar wrote:I don't understand the *perfect* woman thing, since none of us are perfect. Seems the geeky or ugly guys talk the most smack about women. I am neither fat nor thin, but *someone* finds me sorta perfect ...



Naw. Ambar's Ship-Shape.

And Sarvis, while your criticism is pretty, you manage to lack any real relevence, much because you never suggested what a true cause might be (read on, you'll need the rest of this before you hit the reply button).

Eating disorders being diagnosed are on the rise, so is the effect of such issues becoming more pronounced in society - and yet treatment options are as limited and immature as they have been when the problem was first noticed with the clinical community unsure of the causes and suggesting such dubious treatments as hypnosis to tend to the sufferers.

Honestly, your attack on Ambar's input was - for the most part - ineffective. All you've really got is "Don't blame men. Or the media."

While you say that "I'm fairly certain that 90% of the insecurities women feel and try to correct through makeup/surgery/dieting are caused by other women."

Quite frankly, Sarvis, why do you think women are so competitive amongst each other? Answer that, and you've got yourself a real argument.

(Nevermind that we haven't even broached the subject of genetics or chemical/biological influences.)

What Pril means by 'petite' is 'non-threatening'.


Okay, god i don't believe i'm doing this.. but i'll broach the genetics and chemical/biological influences...
Thanks to genetics i'm 5'2".. thanks to chemical/biological and lifestyle I'm overweight.. no i'm not sayin by how much :P
I personally know that you can look anorexic without being anorexic.. at 16 years old I only weighed 105lbs. and wore a size 4.. yes you could see my ribs when i wore shirts that showed my tummy... Yes i did eat 3 meals a day. :)
4 years later i was 120 lbs. and wore a size 8, that's when i got pregnant for the first time.. now, due to medical problems during the pregnancy I gained 50 lbs. with my first child..
point is.. thanks to the chemical/biological influences from getting pregnant I gained weight. thanks to lifestyle i've had problems takin it off ;) and as far as genetics... I was a B cup when i got pregnant the first time.. you can ask anyone who met me in Indiana.. they're no longer a B cup.. think it's due to the pregnancies all ya want.. but i know that i'm in for trouble.. things getting larger as I age, are hereditary in my family :(

Now for that 'non-threatening' comment... I know you couldn't have been talkin about lil ole me ;)

Now as far as the insecurities are concerened.. women don't make me feel as insecure about my size, as most guys do. And yes, media does have a bit of influence in it as well..

And yes Ambar's right.. actually NO ONE is perfect.. you may find someone who is perfect for you.. but that's a whole different subject :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:28 am

Media, media, media. Who controls most of the media? What makes the most money? How is that best stimulated for that audience?

Men. Sex. Visually.

Men are visually stimulated and the plethora of visual stimulation for them abounds. Compare sales of media featuring scantily clad women for the male audience to the opposite for the female audience. Dig into the male brain a bit and you'll come up with why they're stimulated the most by breakable women with large breasts.

The majority of fashion designers are also male... or did you think a woman designed those corsetted dresses of past centuries that caused women such physical agony? They wore those dresses because women were little more than property and were expected to look a certain way in order to attract a husband. Women of wealth were trinkets to be looked at, eye candy on the husband's arm.

A middle ground between Jennifer Garner and Roseanne where women can MAYBE be attractive??? What???? Since when? Oh yeah, since it became a really big media sales technique to show women as less than acceptable if they're actually fairly average, healthy size. Maybe none of you guys ever thought Marilyn Monroe was attractive, but a woman doesn't have to wear a size five or less to be beautiful.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:01 am

Ashiwi wrote:Media, media, media. Who controls most of the media?



Viewers.

What makes the most money?


Sex. Agreed.

How is that best stimulated for that audience?


Visually.

Yes, but think about what that means. It doesn't mean the media gets to really force it's desired image of hotness upon people, it means that if they don't show what people want the show will fail. You could show nothing but Roseanne's on TV and men aren't going to suddenly find 300lb women attractive, why do you think it works in the other direction?


Men are visually stimulated and the plethora of visual stimulation for them abounds. Compare sales of media featuring scantily clad women for the male audience to the opposite for the female audience.


Why? More importantly, is taht true in all societies or only in societies where women are taught that having an interest in sex makes them sluts?

Dig into the male brain a bit and you'll come up with why they're stimulated the most by breakable women with large breasts.



Actually research has shown the most common trait for beauty is a specific waist to hip ratio (7/3 I think, but really not sure) NOT breast size. And isn't it funny that you use the term breakable, as if being thin were somehow the same as being defective. Again cutting down your own gender because in your own mind you don't match up.

Would you call Gabrielle Reese, or Anna Kournakova breakable? They're just as thin as any model, and in fact Anna has a similar figure to Fiona, but they'd probably kick any of our asses in a fight! (Well not mine, my ego... I mean mad skillz would keep me safe. ;) )

The majority of fashion designers are also male...


And gay, so I really don't see how their opinions matter at all.

or did you think a woman designed those corsetted dresses of past centuries that caused women such physical agony? They wore those dresses because women were little more than property and were expected to look a certain way in order to attract a husband. Women of wealth were trinkets to be looked at, eye candy on the husband's arm.


What's that got to do with fashion designers?

Oh, and do you REALLY think men would care if women didn't wear those things?

Ok, I don't know the history of the corset... but let's take another example from more modern times: shaving your legs.

Do you think that if not one single woman in America shaved her legs all men would stop dating and give up sex? No, of course not. But because a few of you shave your legs to get an edge you all have to. Same thing with makeup, even though half the time I think the women would look prettier without the makeup.

A middle ground between Jennifer Garner and Roseanne where women can MAYBE be attractive??? What???? Since when?


Since when what? Look, yo uwant to sit in that middle ground you take your chances. If the excess fat gathers in _just_ the right places (boobs and hips) you'll be more attractive, if the extra 10lbs gathers in your gut or butt you're going to be less attractive.

Oh yeah, since it became a really big media sales technique to show women as less than acceptable if they're actually fairly average, healthy size.


Has nothing to do with media. It has everything to do with viewers not wanting to see that.

Oh, and define "healthy size." BEcause last I checked being healthy meant things like getting regular excercise and not eating a bunch of junk food. Most of the women who do that probably get called anorexic by other women though...

Maybe none of you guys ever thought Marilyn Monroe was attractive, but a woman doesn't have to wear a size five or less to be beautiful.


I just looked at a bunch of photos of Marilyn from google... I don't think she's the "middle ground" between Roseanne and Jennifer. Her stomach is quite flat, for instance.

Here's a hint: flat stomachs are sexy! Round bulgy ones are not, on women OR men. (Well, I'm guessing on the men thing... but I don't see many girls drooling over me... heh.)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:57 am

I'm sure the girls go crazy for you Sarvis.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:36 am

I like'em small myself. The shorter the better :) I'm not too big on tits either. What a woman has to have is a an arse and hips...other than that, just short :)

Oh, and I just bathed yesterday. I finally got over the way you sexed me and left me, gerin. It took almost 10 years, but I finally did it. Kim is happy now that I don't reek of rotten tuna and poo-poo. Even still, there is a part of my rectum that still yurns for your touch :(
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:09 pm

actually, fairly recently the trend was to have a little "pooch" belly and wear belly shirts to emphasize it ..

Yeah I do agree that traditional healthy is eating right and exercising, but even exercising can be bad for you (anything in excess, etc..) ..heard of the guy who keeled over while running his normal ten miles?

in some cultures, *healthy* is a woman who has borne children, has a big belly, thick thighs and hips, and large breasts ... in others it is having ZERO fat

I guess as long as you are happy with who you are, get regular booty, and the person you love finds you attractive, you are perfect in your own way :) (go me!)
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:07 pm

Ambar wrote:in some cultures, *healthy* is a woman who has borne children, has a big belly, thick thighs and hips, and large breasts ...


Happen to know what the average life expectancy is for women in those cultures?
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:22 pm

the perfect woman is subjective.

keep in mind that the majority of top-tier fashion designers are either gay or partake in a similiar lifestyle and prefer models that wear their clothes to look as much like skinny little boys as possible (this straight from the mouth of several different runway models i've known).

i dont approve of it myself even as a photographer. i've seen too many ladies fall to bulemia in the last 5 years, and those that survived have scarring on their hands and damaged teeth to have to deal with.

i think fiona is sexy, but not so much for the way she looks as how she acts in her videos :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:58 pm

Ambar wrote:I guess as long as you are happy with who you are, get regular booty, and the person you love finds you attractive, you are perfect in your own way :) (go me!)


There, Ambar said it very well. And if any of you guys happen to be bitter dorks sitting at home staring at a computer monitor, lashing out at everybody because it's been so long since you've had any bootie that you've forgotten who ties whom up... well... I'd warn you about glass houses if you had any stones to throw, because until you've experienced life as a woman, you really have no clue. In truth, there's not much glass to your houses, because while you feel like you can sit and pelt stones at women for not being your physical ideal, you're not expected to be that much of an ideal, yourself.

Try being raped and being told you brought it on by wearing a short skirt. Try watching TV and seeing almost every single woman who isn't stick thin being portrayed as a vicious shrew. Try banging your head against that glass ceiling that still exists in a great number of corporations. Try putting your husband through medical school, bearing his children, and getting left for a younger model who never put on five pounds due to childbirth. Spousal abuse was an accepted practice for ages, and only recently has it become acceptable to speak out against it, or heaven forbid, leave your husband because of it, because not only were women not supposed to talk about it, their husbands were part of the local good ol' boy system.

You really think women place all this burden on themselves? Well yes, we do to a point, but it's going to take many more years before the reasons that still exist which cause women to behave in this manner become something women, as a group, will overcome. We put this purden on ourselves in the same way that some intelligent women act stupid, dumbing themselves down because it's difficult to find a man who isn't threatened by a woman more intelligent than him. We put the burden on ourselves because every woman's body is different, and while some women hold the "perfect" size easily, others have to struggle every day to try to keep their weight down, and instead of being demeaned and ridiculed for their weight on a daily basis, they'd rather take speed, vomit, or destroy their body in another manner than spend another day "fat." We put the burden on ourselves because our own bodies work against us as we age, with half the conditions that can occur with our feminine organs causing weight gain as a side effect, and so many men are so concerned with how they're being visually stimulated, that weight gain on a woman can often be tantamount to divorce. We put the burden on ourselves because women who have to tolerate harrassment in the workplace, in a bar when they go out with their friends, or just walking along the street, have to put up with being labelled as militant lesbian types if they speak out... unfun, frigid, uptight, can't take a joke or ribbing... or flat out liars just out to make trouble.

You don't think men in media play any part in it? You must never watch prime time TV. Go count the ratio of "flawed" men to "flawed" women. Men can be heavy, balding, unattractive, plain, short, gangly, have big noses, large ears, bad haircuts, and still get a substantial role. Do you know how many up and coming actresses and models break their bodies down and ruin their health for the rest of their lives trying to achieve and maintain those "perfect" looks? If an actor puts on ten pounds nobody notices, but if an actress puts on 10 pounds it could jeopardize her career... not to mention make it into the tabloids flashed with lots of demeaning remarks about her looks.

Women started out fairly normal sized, healthy, but as the years have progressed, you see more and more stick thin, fake-breasted women on TV, and yes, that's because the male viewers want to see it, but it's like anything else that the public becomes accustomed to seeing, or desensitized to, on TV and in the movies, the more they see of it, the more it has to be seen to make an impact. Even the media giants have copped to promoting an unhealthy bodily image for young women in our society, and it's all done for money through the promotion of an unrealistic "average" through the visual stimulation of a man's sex drive. They run commercials promoting healthy bodily images for women, then fill their shows with the exact opposite. They don't HAVE to buy into it, but sex sells, so they intentionally continue to promote the image.

I'm sorry to have gone on a rant about this. I'm not some militant, lesbian feminist, I'm just an average woman who has seen the damage from the woman's side of the fence, and I have always believed that if you deny the problem exists, or support the problem, then you are part of the problem. How in the world you can live in this country and not see that there's a problem, I don't know. Just because our women aren't being led out onto a tarmack and shot in the head doesn't mean that they're not still subject to inequality and unfair treatment. Women put their bodies through torture and sometimes kill themselves trying to maintain an equal footing in a lot of arenas, and that's not equal at all.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:14 am

Ashiwi wrote:There, Ambar said it very well. And if any of you guys happen to be bitter dorks sitting at home staring at a computer monitor, lashing out at everybody because it's been so long since you've had any bootie that you've forgotten who ties whom up... well... I'd warn you about glass houses if you had any stones to throw, because until you've experienced life as a woman, you really have no clue. In truth, there's not much glass to your houses, because while you feel like you can sit and pelt stones at women for not being your physical ideal, you're not expected to be that much of an ideal, yourself.


Wasn't pelting anybody, just pointing out that my idea of attractive tends to include being physically fit. Part of the reason for that is actually that if I'm spending time with someone who shares my flawed lifestyle I'm just going to get worse.

The only stones thrown around here have been by the women, like Ambar saying Fiona's got the figure of a 13 year old or accusing her of anorexia.

Try being raped and being told you brought it on by wearing a short skirt.


Yes, this sucks.

However I read an article a while back about these teenagers in a mall who followed a woman around masterbating because she was dressed provocatively. (Not in America, but I can't find the damn article...) What realy struck me is that they asked a couple old women for comment, and they said the girl deserved that and should be raped for dressing so provocatively.

It's not _men_ who have this attitude, it's traditionalists who have always grown up with the idea that sex and the human body is evil and should be hidden. You tend to find a lot of women with those attitudes though it seems.


Try watching TV and seeing almost every single woman who isn't stick thin being portrayed as a vicious shrew.


Haven't noticed that at all. I'll point out the one woman in Yes Dear as a more "average" sized woman who isn't a shrew. I know, that's only one... but I don't really watch a whole lot of TV... at least not TV that isn't animated. ;)


EDIT: What about the mother on That 70's Show? In fact the two most mean girls on the show are also the thinnest: Jackie and Foreman's sister.

Try banging your head against that glass ceiling that still exists in a great number of corporations.


Heh... watch me fail to care about your glass ceiling when I can't even get a steady job. :(

Try putting your husband through medical school, bearing his children, and getting left for a younger model who never put on five pounds due to childbirth.


I'm sure there's no record whatsoever of a woman doing that to a man, ever in history. YOu also never hear about women marrying rich old guys just so they can get the money when the man dies.


Spousal abuse was an accepted practice for ages, and only recently has it become acceptable to speak out against it, or heaven forbid, leave your husband because of it, because not only were women not supposed to talk about it, their husbands were part of the local good ol' boy system.


You got me there.

You really think women place all this burden on themselves? Well yes, we do to a point,


More than just "to a point."

but it's going to take many more years before the reasons that still exist which cause women to behave in this manner become something women, as a group, will overcome. We put this purden on ourselves in the same way that some intelligent women act stupid, dumbing themselves down because it's difficult to find a man who isn't threatened by a woman more intelligent than him.


No it isn't. You just have to stop dating pretty boys and shallow bad boys. Try out some of us nerds some time maybe. I may want you to keep in shape, but I tend to be intrigued by women who are smarter than me.

We put the burden on ourselves because every woman's body is different, and while some women hold the "perfect" size easily, others have to struggle every day to try to keep their weight down, and instead of being demeaned and ridiculed for their weight on a daily basis, they'd rather take speed, vomit, or destroy their body in another manner than spend another day "fat."


Yeah, they'd rather do anything but get proper nutrition and go jogging 3 times a week. I suspect that jealousy of women who hold the perfect size "easily" may be part of the root cause of all the harping you do on each other. By the way, how do you know they're doing it easily and not in the gym every night working off the food you see them eating?


We put the burden on ourselves because our own bodies work against us as we age, with half the conditions that can occur with our feminine organs causing weight gain as a side effect, and so many men are so concerned with how they're being visually stimulated, that weight gain on a woman can often be tantamount to divorce.


In your mind maybe. Or possibly if you date male models and movie stars exclusively. Most of the rest of us would probably be trapped by that whole "love" thing.

We put the burden on ourselves because women who have to tolerate harrassment in the workplace, in a bar when they go out with their friends, or just walking along the street, have to put up with being labelled as militant lesbian types if they speak out... unfun, frigid, uptight, can't take a joke or ribbing... or flat out liars just out to make trouble.


So you guys put up with one form of labeling because you are afraid of another?

I apologize for the men who do harass women, but most of the guys I know don't do that. Not to mention that women can get so oversensitive about some things. These days men have to walk around women on eggshells to avoid being accused of harassment.


You don't think men in media play any part in it? You must never watch prime time TV. Go count the ratio of "flawed" men to "flawed" women. Men can be heavy, balding, unattractive, plain, short, gangly, have big noses, large ears, bad haircuts, and still get a substantial role.


Huh? On tv maybe, but there's only a handful of flawed male movie stars. And you only see so many of them on TV because it's more commonly accepted that that's what men are like. Especially in America these days, a sitcom would look silly if the guys were in perfect shape because those are supposed to be stories about your average families. Yeah, you could make the same argument for women... I know.

Howeve rwhen I was growing up this wasn't so true. Cheers, MASH, Magnum... everyone was always in great shape, thin, well groomed...

Yet somehow I didn't feel any tremendous pressure to look like those guys.

Do you know how many up and coming actresses and models break their bodies down and ruin their health for the rest of their lives trying to achieve and maintain those "perfect" looks?


Nope. Dunno why either when all they probably need to do is excercise and eat right. But that takes so much more effort than just following the latest fad diet.

If an actor puts on ten pounds nobody notices, but if an actress puts on 10 pounds it could jeopardize her career... not to mention make it into the tabloids flashed with lots of demeaning remarks about her looks.


I have nothing to prove this, but I'd be very willing to bet it's mostly women who read tabloids. (Where would you go for that sort of statistic?)

Women started out fairly normal sized, healthy, but as the years have progressed, you see more and more stick thin, fake-breasted women on TV, and yes, that's because the male viewers want to see it, but it's like anything else that the public becomes accustomed to seeing, or desensitized to, on TV and in the movies, the more they see of it, the more it has to be seen to make an impact. Even the media giants have copped to promoting an unhealthy bodily image for young women in our society, and it's all done for money through the promotion of an unrealistic "average" through the visual stimulation of a man's sex drive. They run commercials promoting healthy bodily images for women, then fill their shows with the exact opposite. They don't HAVE to buy into it, but sex sells, so they intentionally continue to promote the image.


Maybe you should find some pictures of what you consider "healthy" and "stick thin."


However I'd like to relate something I heard once time: Apparently someone did a study of Playboy playmates over the years and found a strong correlation between the "voluptuousness" of the playmate and how well the economy was performing that year. In times where the economy wasn't doing so well, it seems men preferred slightly meatier women.

So maybe you guys could blame a good economy for anorexia? ;)

I'm sorry to have gone on a rant about this. I'm not some militant, lesbian feminist, I'm just an average woman who has seen the damage from the woman's side of the fence, and I have always believed that if you deny the problem exists, or support the problem, then you are part of the problem. How in the world you can live in this country and not see that there's a problem, I don't know. Just because our women aren't being led out onto a tarmack and shot in the head doesn't mean that they're not still subject to inequality and unfair treatment. Women put their bodies through torture and sometimes kill themselves trying to maintain an equal footing in a lot of arenas, and that's not equal at all.


Granted, but I still think most of this is because of how you treat each other and yourselves. Hell, if you watched Survivor last season you saw just how badly women treat each other pretty much.


Then we have things like Cosmo. Nothing but articles on how to make yourselves sexier, how to lose a couple more pounds or tone your "problem areas." You can blame the media all you want, but it's YOU who buys these magazines and induces the publisher to make even more of them.

I've also never managed to understand why beautiful scantilly clad women are in the ads of womens magazines! I mean, back when I was a kid a quick (discreet) flip through of Cosmo was almost always rewarded by a glimpse of boobie. But that seems like it should be the tactic used to sell things to men... :shrug:
Last edited by Sarvis on Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Larem » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:15 am

Ashiwi ASSOC: 'If I'm gonna have lesbian sex, I'd atleast like to get to know the chick first'
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:48 am

MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:25 am

Shevarash wrote:MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD


What if we found out my dad IS your dad?! :P
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Postby Ambar » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:52 am

Sarvis is obviously the subject matter expert here .. we should probably all bow to his superior intellect and logical mind ...

Do you KNOW what jogging does to your body? Walking is better!!!!

Seriously tho ... you make yourself look like an insensitive idiot .. o wait ..


yeah that is all ...


Oops .. had to edit cause I was tired from working my TWO steady jobs *wink*

and take off my sig line :(
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:32 am

Ambar wrote:Sarvis is obviously the subject matter expert here .. we should probably all bow to his superior intellect and logical mind ...

Do you KNOW what jogging does to your body? Walking is better!!!!


Then walk, or ride a bike, or play volleyball or do yoga. Do SOMETHING other than sitting there blaming men and the media for how YOU feel about YOUR body.

What happened to personal responsibility?

Seriously tho ... you make yourself look like an insensitive idiot .. o wait ..


What's with the personal attack? I've not gotten personal with you, please don't get personal with me. Insults are childish. If one of us is wrong, lets prove it like adults, fair enough?

Oops .. had to edit cause I was tired from working my TWO steady jobs *wink*


Good for you.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:33 am

Dude, she was so 14.

And i like a lil' meat on the bone... ribs w/o meat are nasty!

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Postby Kifle » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:23 am

Sarvis does kinda have a point about personal responsibility. However, there are people that excersise and diet and it doesn't help. For a while, I worked out regularly and started loosing my belly...I quit for two weeks and it was back again. I'm bound and destined to be chunky becuase I refuse to work out for 1.5hrs a day for the rest of my life... and I could care less at this point. Like ambar said...I have somebody who is attracted to me and we have sex regularly and that's all that matters. Maybe I have to keep her on a constant drug drip, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Edit: Sorry Ash, but I just now mustered the courage to read through your novel :) You're gonna hate me :( Anyway, you said something about being raped and told you brought it upon yourself because of the skimpy dress. My wife hated me before we dated because of my stance on this. Yes, women don't DESERVE to be raped at any moment of any day. However, if you are walking by yourself in the bad side of town, or a dark parking garage, and you have a dress on that barely covers your snatch and reveals more tits than playboy, you're chances of being raped skyrocket. Again, you don't deserve it, or ask for it, but you should damn well expect it and guard against it. I'm not going to go into a black neighborhood with an "I hate *******" shirt. I'll more than likely get my ass kicked or killed. There are certain common sensical things you can do to safeguard yourself. For instance, don't wear a necklace of steak when going on a safari trip. This is a rule of life. If you don't want bad things to happen, do what you can to prevent them. Of course, bad things will still happen, and that's a tragedy, it truely is, but you did what you could.

Other than that, I agree with you. Don't hate me :(
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:33 am

Quite so, but in taking personal responsibility, one would be just as ignorant to have ignored outside factors.
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Postby Jenera » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:58 pm

Shrug, I forget who said what in all the arguments, but I agree with that person in saying nobody is perfect, but you are perfect for somebody. I think it was Ambar who said this.

I'm 5'7" with a round face and a bit of a round belly. I look bigger than I am because I'm self-conscious of my belly and wear over-sized clothes. I actually wear pants 2 sizes too big and shirts a size or two larger, often choosing bulky sweaters over tight short shirts. I believe last time I went to the doctor, he said I was about 25-30lbs overweight but that all that weight decided to stay in my stomach. I have amazing legs and an ass you can bounce a quarter off of (Yes, Dranix tried just to see if the saying was true). I've lost 100lbs since I was in highschool, spent 5 years working out at the gym for 3 hours a day. I managed to lose weight everywhere else but my stomach, despite hours a day of crunches and situps. I'm sure my doctor was just trying to find a way to take more of my money when he said there are women who just can't lose belly fat due to genetics and suggested a tummy tuck, but it made me feel a little better.

My point in all this rambling is, is that I feel everyone has a soul mate out there. I found mine. Men who are picky about finding the "perfect" mate are often alone. Women freak out about the slightest imperfection and they can try to blame media, men, women, aliens, doesn't matter, it's all about a lack of self-confidence, whether it's because you did it to yourself or you decided to listen to another person's criticism.

Everyone has their own preference. I understand women who spend millions of dollars a year on plastic surgery and makeup and the thousand and one ways of hiding who you really are and men who spend hours at exercise facilities and run around sleeping with as many women as they can to look good to others. If you're always just worrying about what other people think about how you look, I doubt you'll ever be happy.

*waits for the flames from people who hate it when others voice an opinion* :P
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:11 pm

Notice I never once said that women shouldn't take responsibility for their own actions. Thank you Kifle, not mad at you at all, still love you tons. Dunno where you get the idea that you're pudgy, though.

I've always thought that women should take it upon themselves to protect themselves, however, you might have to put forth a definition of exactly what "provocatively dressed" means. Is it shorts and a tank top? Is it a skirt the same length of those shorts with a tank top? Is it the hip hugger jeans with the crop top? Is it a bikini? At just what point do women have to look at their clothing and think to themselves "If I wear this, I deserve to have a violent physical assault perpetrated on me."

I've also felt that women who go out and drink themselves into a stupor shouldn't be surprised the next morning when they find out they were assaulted while they were blacked out. Their bodies, their responsibility to maintain them. It still doesn't make a rape acceptable, though.

And I've never said that women shouldn't exercise regularly and watch what they eat, as they are the keepers of their bodies and responsible for their own health. I certainly do, though you might not believe it.

Oh, and Sarvis... I'm rather partial to the nerdier guys. There's just something about a good conversationalist that's ded seksy.

Yeah, they'd rather do anything but get proper nutrition and go jogging 3 times a week.


I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with your debates. You assume that because something isn't what you think it is, then it must obviously be what you think it shouldn't be. Like telling Ambar to walk instead of sitting around on her butt, after she mentioned that jogging is rough on the body and walking is better. Ambar's been in the military as long as I've known her, so I'm betting she probably gets a decent portion of exercise every week. You have it lodged into your head that because a woman might have issues controlling her weight, then she MUST be gluttonous and slothful (which I have to say is pretty darned insulting when it's not my personal case).

At this point I will have to assume, in turn, that it is your lack of experience with the female body in any fashion which leads you to believe this way.
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Postby rylan » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:16 pm

Hey Hei, have you tried one of those ab exercise machine things? One of the kind where you kneel on a mat and put your arms out and basically do pushups, except you're gliding on some rollers on the floor instead ofbending your arms. I didn't buy one, but I have some old round weights that happened to work the same and it helps to get rid of some of the annoying belly area that is hard to do anything about. Those ab rollers or exercise weels are under 50 bucks I think.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:59 pm

yeah, Kelly .. I am at the gym every weekday ay 5AM ... i LOVE the eliptical machine (ooo go spelling)

Sarvis assumes I am fat becuase of my stance on this matter, I guess ..

Can't member who else assumed it too, since I have ZERO self esteem and always call myself fat .. this comes from me being about 135 and my ex telling me how fat I was ... this was after 2 kids ... (no im not 135 anymore:P)

Yeah, I guess women who walk around wear provocatie clothing, they do make themselves a target ... but explain the children, old women, babies, young boys that get raped ..

Rape is NOT a sexual crime, it is a violent crime .. but yeah we can take measures to protect ourselves against it ...

Mean people suck :(
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:12 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Oh, and Sarvis... I'm rather partial to the nerdier guys. There's just something about a good conversationalist that's ded seksy.


Nerds aren't good conversationalists. You're thinking of those suave guys who always know the right thing to say. Your typical nerd can't string two sentences together in front of an attractive girl. Or at least I can't. ;)


I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with your debates. You assume that because something isn't what you think it is, then it must obviously be what you think it shouldn't be.


In arguing that media causes all the insecurities women face you said: " they'd rather take speed, vomit, or destroy their body in another manner than spend another day "fat." "

Nowhere in that sentence to I see mention of women trying to actually be healthy through proper diet and excercise. This is pretty much endemic to our society, where quick fixes are sold for every problem you can imagine. If I were wrong about this, why would weight watchers be such a succesful company?

Like telling Ambar to walk instead of sitting around on her butt, after she mentioned that jogging is rough on the body and walking is better.


I believe she was taking about women in general, and so was I.

Yes, I know I used "you" in there... poor choice of wording I guess. The point is when women are sitting around bitching about how the media portrays "unrealistic" body images while they eat a gallon of Ben & Jerry's then whip out their weight watchers books I find it hard to believe the media is really the problem.

Ambar's been in the military as long as I've known her, so I'm betting she probably gets a decent portion of exercise every week. You have it lodged into your head that because a woman might have issues controlling her weight, then she MUST be gluttonous and slothful (which I have to say is pretty darned insulting when it's not my personal case).


This is pretty much true in 90% of cases. Especially in America. I know that this is why I'm overweight, and have seen absolutely nothing to make me assume any other cause when I see another person (male or female) who is overweight. Granted there's that .0001% chance that they have a glandular problem or bad genetics... but it's far, FAR more likely that they sit in front of a computer 12 hours a day and eat McDonald's for lunch every day.

At this point I will have to assume, in turn, that it is your lack of experience with the female body in any fashion which leads you to believe this way.


It's actually my experience in general that leads me to believe that way.

I know how to gain weight, I know how to lose it. I even know how to maintain my weight. The problem is always finding the willpower to do the former. :(



<b>Jenera</b>

it's all about a lack of self-confidence, whether it's because you did it to yourself or you decided to listen to another person's criticism.


Yep.

and run around sleeping with as many women as they can to look good to others.


Err... no. Men do that because we like sex! ;)

<b>Kifle</b>

I'm willing bet you didn't change your eating habits much. First thing I did when I seriously needed to lose weight, and the most effective I think, was to stop drinking soda. In fact caffeine in general apparently slows down your metabolism, but since I didn't drink coffee I didn't have to worry about that after just giving up the soda.
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