FIONA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sarvis]

yeah, Kelly .. I am at the gym every weekday ay 5AM ... i LOVE the eliptical machine (ooo go spelling)

Sarvis assumes I am fat becuase of my stance on this matter, I guess ..

Can't member who else assumed it too, since I have ZERO self esteem and always call myself fat .. this comes from me being about 135 and my ex telling me how fat I was ... this was after 2 kids ... (no im not 135 anymore:P)

Didn't assume anything, just made a poor choice of words.

However I think yo ujust proved my point. You're not fat, because you excercise every day.

Yeah, I guess women who walk around wear provocatie clothing, they do make themselves a target ... but explain the children, old women, babies, young boys that get raped ..

Rape is NOT a sexual crime, it is a violent crime .. but yeah we can take measures to protect ourselves against it ...

Agreed. Meant to say that, but didn't really want to get into THAT argument.

[Ambar]

actually i havent lost a thing since i started working out .. just something the navy makes me do .. *shrug* only thing i have noticed so far is my stamina has increased ... and i actually mostly enjoy going ....

i was thinner when my metabolism was faster .. im older now so the weight is harder to take off

see thats most of your problem..

you ASSUME too much :)

there are people wyho work out every day who are very overweight .. people that work out every day and keel over with heart attacks

my ex assumed that people were healthy if they were thin ... he is 6' tall and weighs MAYBE 170 .. very thin .. his cholesterol is thru the roof, and he refuses to do anything about it cause he is *healthy*

[Kifle]

Thanks for letting that slide, ash :) Yeah, I still think rape is a horrible crime that shouldn't happen, but it does. I also understand that when it happens to children, during break-ins, etc... that there is probably nothing that could have been done; so, I was just talking about the more avoidable cases.

Jen (not ambar), it's very condesending and hypocritical when you write things like your last comment. You're basically flaming people that argue and then being self-righteous yourself. Arguments are not flames. Yes, some people flame during arguments, but arguments, and other people's opinions, are not flames. Your whole post was an argument. It could very well be labeled a subtle flame as well as an insult of ignorance. Some people argue and flame more than others here...i'm guilty of that at times, but there is not one of us here that has not flamed at one point, so I think it best for the the high horses to be put to sleep, eh? also, I'm just like you. I have hardly any fat on my body except for my little man tits and belly. My body refuses to get any, and i mean any, fat on my legs.

Sarvis, I actually did change my diet quite a bit. I would take one centrum throughout the day. I'd crush it up into a glass of water and drink 1/3 of it through the day so I would get more vitamin absorbtion. I let myself eat a little cheese, but it was mainly salad with little dressing, tuna out of the can, saltines, and chicken. However, I couldn't give up the pepsi...I'm addicted to the shit :( I'm sure that had a lot to do with the lack of weightloss, but it as far as my training regement, I should have lost more.

Rylan, those ab rollers don't work to well for losing weight. Actually, using those things will make your belly look bigger more times than not. All they do is a bit of aerobic but mostly muscle building. Your abs will build and strengthen behind the fat which pushes it out a bit farther. However, eventually you will start to see minimal weight loss in the area because of raised metabolism because of the muscle mass gain. The way to lose the belly would be a combination of a full body training regement and some form of aerobics or calesthenics.

[Nurpy Fuzzyfeet]

The perfect woman is the one you get to know, love(not sex either), and adore. The woman I'm with now is not perfect, and I know I could do better and find someone else that has bigger boobs or something, but I don't love them. Love is blind, and you learn to over-look others flaws.
My gf is 105 lbs, but I don't think I'd love her any less if she was 150lbs. She stays in shape because she wants to, not because I make her.

If you wan't to be in great shape and get all the 'hawt" girls then by all means, do so. I know I did to acquire who I have now. It's better if you ask me, to do it for yourself instead of others, though.

Can't write any more, and just disregard anything I said if it has been said already in this topic, or is just off topic. I skimmed through it.

[Sarvis]

actually i havent lost a thing since i started working out .. just something the navy makes me do ..

(no im not 135 anymore:P)

Make up your mind.

i was thinner when my metabolism was faster .. im older now so the weight is harder to take off

Am I supposed to assume you eat a perfectly healthy diet, and never partake in any junk food that might make it harder to get that weight off?

there are people wyho work out every day who are very overweight .. people that work out every day and keel over with heart attacks

Yeah, you see tons of fat people out there exercising. All the time. :roll:

my ex assumed that people were healthy if they were thin ... he is 6' tall and weighs MAYBE 170 .. very thin .. his cholesterol is thru the roof, and he refuses to do anything about it cause he is *healthy*

He's probably healthier than I am.


<b>Kifle</b>

Sarvis, I actually did change my diet quite a bit. I would take one centrum throughout the day. I'd crush it up into a glass of water and drink 1/3 of it through the day so I would get more vitamin absorbtion.

That's a good idea! I've been breaking them in half since I started taking them a few weeks ago...

I let myself eat a little cheese, but it was mainly salad with little dressing, tuna out of the can, saltines, and chicken. However, I couldn't give up the pepsi...I'm addicted to the shit :( I'm sure that had a lot to do with the lack of weightloss, but it as far as my training regement, I should have lost more.

You were dieting. Seriously, I think you went too far with it... if you are taking in way too few calories your body's reaction is to store them because it thinks you're having trouble finding food. When I lost 50 lbs a couple years ago I _just_ cut out soda and junk food (ie. McDonalds, doritos, candy bars) but still ate "normally" aside from that. Pasta, sandwiches, occasional tv dinners, Subway and even Taco Bell. (Certain things at taco bell actually have less fat and calories than the Subway subs Jared touts!) I also allowed myself a small pizza and soda about once a week.

Just sayin that if I'd tried to just eat salad like you not only would it have been ineffective but I wouldn't have been able to stick with it at all.

[Ambar]

Sarvis, gods you are thick headed :P Stop assuming you know things when you don't .. hell for all you know I could be 120 pounds and blonde with HUGE fake boobs :P

I am 37 years old .. of COURSE my metabolism is lower than when I was 25 and 135 pounds ... sheesh ...

Obviously you dont go the same gyms as I do (DUH) ... LOTS of heavy people work out ... lots of heavy people are fit, just heavy .. lots of overweight people can run circles around me (football anyone?)

I guess my point is .. do NOT assume that every person who is thin is healthy .. unless you have a degree in health and know different :)

... o .. duno if you know about this site or not ... but check out Monster.com for job openings .. within a week and a half of being with me, Arilin had a very nice job offer and has been thru two interview processes (yeah I know that was random .. but thats the kinda mood i am in today)

and, if my ex who is a heart attack waiting to happen with his cholesterol level and drinking/partying lifestyle is healthier than you ... damn you must be ill!


-J

[Jenera]

That last comment was a joke, Kifle. I have to admit I was kind of poking fun at all of the Teflor/Sarvis arguments of name calling that go on all over this bbs and that's wrong and I apologize, but I couldn't help myself. I wasn't being self-righteous, I was merely saying what was on my mind. I don't often post on these boards, but this particular topic interested me because I know what it's like to be constantly called fat. My own parents told me I could sumo wrestle when I was younger. Teflor even read the stupid comment I made and laughed as did I. I just stated in my post exactly what I believe, a little bit about my own situation and to be honest with you, I wouldn't have been surprised if someone called me stupid or ignorant for what I said. No one did, but I wouldn't have been surprised. I personally don't think I've ever flamed anyone on a public forum. I may have disagreed with a particular person or have thought things, but never voiced them because I fear saying things on this bbs sometimes. If I have ever flamed, or if you thought my above post was a subtle insult, I apologize, it wasn't meant to be taken that way. I put a :P at the end because I was hoping people would find it semi-humorous like I did. I'm going to shut up now.

[Dranix/Straxin]

Hey Carl.

Fuck you

:P

[Dranix/Straxin]

See, I can post without flaming people :)

[rylan]

See, I can post without flaming people :)

[Thilindel]

In general, I must say it's 'no problem' to start a conversation with a 'horizontally challenged' person vs. one who's stereotypically 'picturesque.' I know not always, but usually the 'beautiful' people are high mainenance or pretty snotty. If a person is happy with themselves and are nice, then who gives a rat's butt what others think he/she looks?

[Sarvis]

Sarvis, gods you are thick headed :P Stop assuming you know things when you don't .. hell for all you know I could be 120 pounds and blonde with HUGE fake boobs :P

I am 37 years old .. of COURSE my metabolism is lower than when I was 25 and 135 pounds ... sheesh ...

The only assumption I made is that when you said you were 135lbs after giving birth but aren't any more is that you lost the weight through exercise.

I only made that assumption because you implied weight loss and someone pointed out to me that you do a lot of exercise in the military. It's a fairly easy conclusion to draw.

Obviously you dont go the same gyms as I do (DUH) ... LOTS of heavy people work out ... lots of heavy people are fit, just heavy .. lots of overweight people can run circles around me (football anyone?)

I don't go to gyms at all. :P

How many of the overweight people do you see there every day? Or, more to the point, do you just see different fat people there every day because they aren't sticking with the exercise program? The ones that you do see regularly, any chance they are getting a little smaller over time?

I guess my point is .. do NOT assume that every person who is thin is healthy .. unless you have a degree in health and know different :)

Actually I assume the opposite: every person who is heavy is unhealthy. I may not be right 100% of the time, but in a country where airlines are considering raising rates for obese people because of the extra gas used I'm guessing I'll be right quite a lot.

... o .. duno if you know about this site or not ... but check out Monster.com for job openings .. within a week and a half of being with me, Arilin had a very nice job offer and has been thru two interview processes (yeah I know that was random .. but thats the kinda mood i am in today)

Yeah, been to monster. Well, just got fired the other day so haven't done much searching yet... but I did a lot of searching on monster last year and ndidn't come up with much. :(

and, if my ex who is a heart attack waiting to happen with his cholesterol level and drinking/partying lifestyle is healthier than you ... damn you must be ill!

Well, I've gained 50lbs over the last year... I'm sedate as hell and pretty much don't watch what I eat. Don't go to doctors much either, so couldn't tell you what my cholesterol was... heh.

As for drinking/partying... the one summer I was actually going out every weekend is the same summer I lost a bunch of weight. I think it was the dancing... ;)

[Ensis]

This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe you women got so riled up just because Larem said that he thought Fiona Apple was hot.

Fact: Fiona Apple is not pro-spousal abuse as far as I know.
Fact: Most of the angst portrayed in this thread seems to be from angry women who are projecting their issues about male/female dominance onto a thread that starts with "Fiona Apple is Hawt"

WWLWICBD?

(Thats short for What-would-Levi-Who-Is-Called-Biff-Do? If you don't get it..sucks for yew.)

[Snurgt]

Lamb!

If you are overweight and obese and are happy with yourself the way you are, more power to you, that is a wonderful thing. However, that doesn't mean that from a health standpoint, being overweight/obese is "ok". It is not, and it is unhealthy.

Just so we are all on the same page, overweight/obesity is defined as a BMI of:
<18.5 underweight
18.5 to 24.9 healthy
25.0 to 29.9 overweight
>30.0 obese

Obese people workout, and may develop cardiovascular fitness, etc. It does not mean they are healthy. They are still prone to more diseases, cancers, and other health issues. We can find exceptions to the rule all day long (fat people who can run a marathon, skinny people who can't run a mile, etc.) but don't lose sight of the big picture. In the main, it is healthier not to be overweight or obese. This is not a theory, it is fact.

Calories in > calories out = weight gain.
Calories out > calories in = weight loss.
You just have to find the #'s that are right for you.

Here is a cut and paste/edit for ya from NIH/NCI (nat'l cancer institute):

During the last two decades, the percentage of overweight and obese adults and children has been steadily increasing.
Lack of physical activity is strongly associated with obesity.
In addition to increasing the risk of coronary heart disease, stroke, high blood pressure, and diabetes, obesity increases the risk of cancers of the breast (postmenopausal), endometrium (the lining of the uterus), colon, kidney, and esophagus.
Avoiding weight gain can lower the risk of cancers of the breast (postmenopausal), endometrium, colon, kidney, and esophagus.
Regular physical activity lowers the risk of colon and breast cancers.

Hope that was helpful.

[Ashiwi]

Heh, the one thing I've noticed repeating itself over and over again in this thread is that apparently Sarvis has no room to talk about who may or may not be physically fit or attractive.

Sarvis, just because you don't eat right or exercise regularly doesn't mean other "heavier" people don't. You seem to be transferring your attitude towards it onto others.

[teflor the ranger]

You all seem to be quite missing the point.

With regular exercise and a healthy diet (and necessary medication for diabetics and such), a healthy body is possible to maintain.

The point you're missing, Sarvis, is that this statement only considers internal factors. You are completely outside of the discussion taking place. Just to give you a hint, everyone else is talking about external factors.

Then problem is that you're just not with everybody else. You're not only not on the same page, you're reading a different book.

And Ambar, Ashiwi, Jenera, that's what you're missing.

Now Let's Sum Things Up:

* Men and the media definately shapes society's image of the ideal female.

* Proper exercise, diet, medical treatment will allow virtually anyone to have a healthy body.

* Being overweight or large most often leads to a poor self-image.

* Poor self-image most often leads to being large or overweight.

* People who recieve education and moral support, as well as assistance to improve self-image are better equipped and more successful at leading healthier lives.

* Society often shuns those who are overweight or large, thus reducing self-image and providing no moral support.

* Regardless of most circumstances, it is possible to become healthy and trim.

* But without the proper support, motivation, and self-image, those who try to do so often fail.

Put it together people. Especially you, Sarvis.

[Vahok]

I thought this thread was about nice pieces of ass....

C'mere ladies!

[Pril]

ok not to be the dick on this board (I think Sarvis took that role :p) but i hav a diff issue. So i've been trying to gain weight for the last 5 years and can't seem to do it. Anyone have ideas? I eat 3-5 times a day. And i'm on a strict seefood diet (when i see food i eat it).

Pril

[Kifle]

ok not to be the dick on this board (I think Sarvis took that role :p) but i hav a diff issue. So i've been trying to gain weight for the last 5 years and can't seem to do it. Anyone have ideas? I eat 3-5 times a day. And i'm on a strict seefood diet (when i see food i eat it).

Pril

If you're looking to add weight as in muscle...eat tons of protein. whey protein to be exact. If you can't find that, a good diet of albacore tuna will do just fine. Along with this, up your carb intake. On top of this, work out at least 3-5x a week for at least 1-2hrs. Low reps of heavy weight and switch the body parts you work out on an every other day basis. Ie. arms/back/chest one day, legs/abs the next. Give it about a month and you'll see a good increase. just don't load up on fat.

[Kifle]

Hey Carl.

Fuck you

:P

sorry, I call it like I see it...joking or not, the comment could easily be taken as a flame given the mood of the discusion in this thread...I flame quite a bit, but I'm an asshole. I admit it. I just get sick of people screaming "stop the flaming...you children!" like they are above it. Nobody is above personal insults -- nobody. Joking or not, that really doesn't matter. I mean, I could walk over to somebody's house, call them an idiot, and then say I was just kidding, but that doesn't stop them from second guessing whether I meant it or not. It's best left unsaid unless you are willing for it to be construed as such.

BTW, You can't fuck me anymore..you have hei :) But we'll always have Indiana Beach!

[rer]

ok not to be the dick on this board (I think Sarvis took that role :p) but i hav a diff issue. So i've been trying to gain weight for the last 5 years and can't seem to do it. Anyone have ideas? I eat 3-5 times a day. And i'm on a strict seefood diet (when i see food i eat it).

Pril

If you're looking to add weight as in muscle...eat tons of protein. whey protein to be exact. If you can't find that, a good diet of albacore tuna will do just fine. Along with this, up your carb intake. On top of this, work out at least 3-5x a week for at least 1-2hrs. Low reps of heavy weight and switch the body parts you work out on an every other day basis. Ie. arms/back/chest one day, legs/abs the next. Give it about a month and you'll see a good increase. just don't load up on fat.

Heh, sounds fairly close to what I've been telling him for years...

Maybe he'll listen to you Kifle!

[Ruhr]

Female beauty is subjective, true, however, youth, beauty and the appearance of health are what attract men. That the vast bulk of females appear to fall outside of the ideal mating subset is nothing new.

All the PoMo handwringing in the world won't change this one iota. Either you are f**kable or you're not -- this has nothing to do with Madison Avenue.

But while we're on the subject, men face similar if not stiffer standards. Not only do we have to look good, but we have to make enough to support a family -- which is no small feat in 21st C. A'merka.

The same females who bemoan the cultural trends against obesity in women are the first to excourate men for their inadequacies -- exhibit A, the women on this forum classifying the men as nerds (read: beta males unsuitable for sex, the worst insult you can give a man) who shouldn't throw stones in glass houses...?

These same nerds would be magically transformed into alpha males if they had a phat load of loot -- ask any man who is in medical school how he magically becomes a hottie to sundry gold digger, the same women who scorned him only last week.

Nothing wrong with this, by the way, it's natural for women to want someone who can protect them -- and naturally this means money in our day and age. But seriously STFU about how we're unreasonable about our images of women. That's the deal. You look good, we chase you, you take our money and hen peck us into an early grave. If you can't keep up your part of the bargin (being humpable, at least initially, feel free to let yourself go after marriage/birth/etc, but then don't be surprised if we go find someone else to hump on the side).

And for the record, I prefer petite AND big natural boobies -- however, for a wife I'd take a hideous, but brilliant math genius to a supermodel, because I want smart children.

[Ashiwi]

Ya know... not meaning to start something back up here, but I actually looked at the pictures of Fiona Apple from the Oscars... She is a very pretty young woman, but she's ... ummmm.... if my daughter looked like that, I would be very worried about her. I've seen and known lots of people who were naturally slender, or who were downright bony and couldn't gain weight no matter what they tried. Fiona's not one of those. While she may be naturally slender, her bone structure belies a weight loss beyond a healthy point. Her hands are too large for her wrists, her head is too large for her neck, and she shows some physical traits which have been linked to bulemia (that's not concrete evidence she's bulemic, I'm just pointing it out). And the camera's supposed to add on ten pounds.

I've seen other pictures of her where she looked a bit more filled out, instead of gaunt, and she's always been very attractive. I'm sorry, but the pics of her at the Oscars don't look healthy or attractive to me at all. They look almost skeletal. And no, I'm not ragging on my fellow woman out of jealousy or envy. Do you guys REALLY think that's healthy?

[rer]

I can definitely agree with you on that one Kelly.

Calista Flockhart types are TOO skinny (yes, there is such a thing as too skinny) and I am much more likely to call a girl out for being too skinny than for being too heavy. In fact, I have at least 2 friends that I can think of who ARE too skinny, and who I try to get to eat more on a regular basis.

Stating that I like petite women does not mean I like them anorexic. I like healthy women, just of the skinnier variety.

[Ashiwi]

See, now that makes all the difference, Rer.

And Ruhr... in my fantasies the guy is 6'1" and lean, with those cute little muscles just below the abdomen that shelve gorgeous, narrow hips.

IRL, my first husband was 5'6" and at his heaviest weighed 250-275... I think he was 225 when I met him. Oh, and I ended up supporting him because he couldn't keep a job.

And you obviously twisted my words to suit something in your own mind when you said nerds were beta males unsuitable for sex. Maybe you missed the part where I mentioned a serious weakness for the nerdier guys on my own part... every time I watch Frazier I want to do things to Niles Crane that aren't legal in Oklahoma.

[Pril]

They're only illegal in OK because they don't involve animals.

Pril

[rer]

And Ruhr... in my fantasies the guy is 6'1" and lean, with those cute little muscles just below the abdomen that shelve gorgeous, narrow hips.

*sniff* And here I was thinking my wide, birthing hips were going to come in handy :(

*halo*

[Ruhr]

And you obviously twisted my words to suit something in your own mind when you said nerds were beta males unsuitable for sex. Maybe you missed the part where I mentioned a serious weakness for the nerdier guys on my own part... every time I watch Frazier I want to do things to Niles Crane that aren't legal in Oklahoma.

You did imply that:

1) the male players on torilmud were nerds; and

2) as such they had no right to expect high physical standards in a female -- a stipulation which has direct bearing on their suitablity as a mate, a subject of primary concern for (most) men (inadequacy being our greatest fear).

That you personally settled for someone both inadequate physically (according to your fantasy standard) and emotionally isn't really germaine to my primary argument, which is that women who blame advertising/the culture/whatever for the expectation in men that they be physically appealing is sophistry; that in fact similar expectations are placed on men in addition to financial expectations.

[Ashiwi]

Heh, well okay. I guess if that's the way you want to see it, then it must be true.

[rer]

Ruhr, what you fail to realize is that, while many men on here are nerds, that does not mean that we are financially unstable, or incapable of financial wealth. While finances are certainly a cornerstone of American society today, I have seen plenty of poor, dumb hicks get really hot chicks to marry them, and likewise, seen men who, based on the standards you are mentioning are "Alpha" males, go home with the ugliest women.

What it really boils down to is taste. There are some men that prefer skinny, some that prefer heavy. I like brunettes, my buddy prefers blonds. I have a thing for blue eyes, Pril for brown. Quite frankly, the key to happiness is to not settle. Anyone out there can get anyone else! I mean, hell, the word love was invented by the poor poets in the 1600's who couldn't compete financially with the wealthy merchants and nobles for the hot women of the day. "Well, sure, he can buy you a shiny new horse, but me, I love you." Which is exactly why Love means something different to everyone. For some, it is having the stability and confidence that having lots of money brings. For some, it is having extreme intellectual stimulation. For others, it's all about religion. For many, there is a physical and sexual component as well. However, I have dated girls that I was not overly physically attracted too because of mental and emotional stimulation, or because of extreme sexual chemistry. Sure, there has to be a certain degree of physical attraction, otherwise it's probably not going to work out. But that's not all that matters in life, and beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

[Pril]

Ruhr, what you fail to realize is that, while many men on here are nerds, that does not mean that we are financially unstable, or incapable of financial wealth. While finances are certainly a cornerstone of American society today, I have seen plenty of poor, dumb hicks get really hot chicks to marry them, and likewise, seen men who, based on the standards you are mentioning are "Alpha" males, go home with the ugliest women.

What it really boils down to is taste. There are some men that prefer skinny, some that prefer heavy. I like brunettes, my buddy prefers blonds. I have a thing for blue eyes, Pril for brown. Quite frankly, the key to happiness is to not settle. Anyone out there can get anyone else! I mean, hell, the word love was invented by the poor poets in the 1600's who couldn't compete financially with the wealthy merchants and nobles for the hot women of the day. "Well, sure, he can buy you a shiny new horse, but me, I love you." Which is exactly why Love means something different to everyone. For some, it is having the stability and confidence that having lots of money brings. For some, it is having extreme intellectual stimulation. For others, it's all about religion. For many, there is a physical and sexual component as well. However, I have dated girls that I was not overly physically attracted too because of mental and emotional stimulation, or because of extreme sexual chemistry. Sure, there has to be a certain degree of physical attraction, otherwise it's probably not going to work out. But that's not all that matters in life, and beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

*applaud*

Rer man ya hit it right on the nose. Ruhr how many times have you and yer buddies disagreed on weather you thought a girl was good looking or not? Also to add to Rer's post (kind of) guys look for different physical attributes in girls. Some guys like legs, some guys like eyes, some guys like ears, some like breasts, etc. How can you say there is an "international standard" if you will for what "hot girls" look like. Also i can tell you that for 90% of the guys i know brains are MUCH more important than physical appearence. Appearences change as people get older and mature. But stupidity lives on forever.

Pril

[Ruhr]

Ruhr, what you fail to realize is that, while many men on here are nerds, that does not mean that we are financially unstable, or incapable of financial wealth. While finances are certainly a cornerstone of American society today, I have seen plenty of poor, dumb hicks get really hot chicks to marry them, and likewise, seen men who, based on the standards you are mentioning are "Alpha" males, go home with the ugliest women.

What it really boils down to is taste. There are some men that prefer skinny, some that prefer heavy. I like brunettes, my buddy prefers blonds. I have a thing for blue eyes, Pril for brown. Quite frankly, the key to happiness is to not settle. Anyone out there can get anyone else! I mean, hell, the word love was invented by the poor poets in the 1600's who couldn't compete financially with the wealthy merchants and nobles for the hot women of the day. "Well, sure, he can buy you a shiny new horse, but me, I love you." Which is exactly why Love means something different to everyone. For some, it is having the stability and confidence that having lots of money brings. For some, it is having extreme intellectual stimulation. For others, it's all about religion. For many, there is a physical and sexual component as well. However, I have dated girls that I was not overly physically attracted too because of mental and emotional stimulation, or because of extreme sexual chemistry. Sure, there has to be a certain degree of physical attraction, otherwise it's probably not going to work out. But that's not all that matters in life, and beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

The English word for Love may have been invented in the 17th century, but the concept is as old as time... Eros, after all, was the Greek god of "Love" and eran is the greek verb of "to love" -- Proof that our progenitors experienced this emotion is demonstrated by Orpheus' decent into the underworld to rescue Eurydice (70 B.C.), or Paris risking war and the fate of Troy on his love for Helen or Aphrodite's affection for Adonis; she loved him so much that she resurrected him. The examples are innumerable.

I will concede that each person has has different criteria for attraction; I never argued otherwise -- although youth and health are a standard for attraction. Nor did I suggest that "nerds" were incapable of being financially successful.

[Tasan]

However, I have dated girls that I was not overly physically attracted too because of mental and emotional stimulation, or because of extreme sexual chemistry.

Did you spill drinks on them too to see if they were acceptable? ;)

!!x

[rer]

On occasion, yes! *wink*

[Pril]

Ruhr, what you fail to realize is that, while many men on here are nerds, that does not mean that we are financially unstable, or incapable of financial wealth. While finances are certainly a cornerstone of American society today, I have seen plenty of poor, dumb hicks get really hot chicks to marry them, and likewise, seen men who, based on the standards you are mentioning are "Alpha" males, go home with the ugliest women.

What it really boils down to is taste. There are some men that prefer skinny, some that prefer heavy. I like brunettes, my buddy prefers blonds. I have a thing for blue eyes, Pril for brown. Quite frankly, the key to happiness is to not settle. Anyone out there can get anyone else! I mean, hell, the word love was invented by the poor poets in the 1600's who couldn't compete financially with the wealthy merchants and nobles for the hot women of the day. "Well, sure, he can buy you a shiny new horse, but me, I love you." Which is exactly why Love means something different to everyone. For some, it is having the stability and confidence that having lots of money brings. For some, it is having extreme intellectual stimulation. For others, it's all about religion. For many, there is a physical and sexual component as well. However, I have dated girls that I was not overly physically attracted too because of mental and emotional stimulation, or because of extreme sexual chemistry. Sure, there has to be a certain degree of physical attraction, otherwise it's probably not going to work out. But that's not all that matters in life, and beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

The English word for Love may have been invented in the 17th century, but the concept is as old as time... Eros, after all, was the Greek god of "Love" and eran is the greek verb of "to love" -- Proof that our progenitors experienced this emotion is demonstrated by Orpheus' decent into the underworld to rescue Eurydice (70 B.C.), or Paris risking war and the fate of Troy on his lover for Helen or Aphrodite's affection for Adonis; she loved him so much that she resurrected him. The examples are innumerable.

Rhur,

a) the emotion has always been there, noone denies that.

b) the word has existed for a long time.

But, what Rer meant (i think correct me if i'm wrong Rer) is "love" being used to mean not just an emotion but something more started with the poets. Rer mean "love" as in having some sort of physical attribute like money or possession or good looks do.

Pril

[Ruhr]

Rhur,

a) the emotion has always been there, noone denies that.

b) the word has existed for a long time.

But, what Rer meant (i think correct me if i'm wrong Rer) is "love" being used to mean not just an emotion but something more started with the poets. Rer mean "love" as in having some sort of physical attribute like money or possession or good looks do.

Pril

If he's referring to the advent of the troubadours -- who, as a broad group, were motivated by different goals:

1) the celebration of the unobtainable other (romantic idealism);

2) the separation of rich women from their jewels followed by a hasty retreat;

3) thumbing their noses at a prudish and restrictive clergy who's grip on European morality was dwindling in the face of the Enlightenment; and

4) the general wooing of women.

I'm really having trouble reconciling this historical period with practical, and often subconscious motivations for choosing a mate or wife. With a divorce rate as high as we have in the western world is romance really alive -- and if it were alive would it make it past the first two years of marriage?

[Duna]

I'm really having trouble reconciling this historical period with practical, and often subconscious motivations for choosing a mate or wife. With a divorce rate as high as we have in the western world is romance really alive -- and if it were alive would it make it past the first two years of marriage?

Yes Romance really is alive, and yes it does make it past the first two years of marriage..

4) the general wooing of women.

If some people did this past the first two years of marriage there would more than likely be less divorces..

[Vahok]

I've wooed enough women, and here is how a real man does it...

"WOOOOOO! You got a nice (fill in body part here). Wanna make out?

....OK, so I don't know how to woo...

[Duna]

I've wooed enough women, and here is how a real man does it...

"WOOOOOO! You got a nice (fill in body part here). Wanna make out?

....OK, so I don't know how to woo...

Yer not far off, though.. Lettin a woman know you think she looks good, no matter what time of day it maybe is a good place to start :) It's more about lettin her know that even though she's gained 10 or even 20 pounds, you think she looks good.. or maybe remembering that she said something about liking a certain item in june, and when december rolls around buying it for her for xmas.. and I'd imagine that would go for women with men as well.. please correct me if i'm wrong.

[Tasan]

Yer not far off, though.. Lettin a woman know you think she looks good, no matter what time of day it maybe is a good place to start :) It's more about lettin her know that even though she's gained 10 or even 20 pounds, you think she looks good..

What if you think she looks fat with 10 or even 20 pounds more hanging off her thighs? Isn't honesty the best policy? Hypocrites.

!!x

[Duna]

Yer not far off, though.. Lettin a woman know you think she looks good, no matter what time of day it maybe is a good place to start :) It's more about lettin her know that even though she's gained 10 or even 20 pounds, you think she looks good..

What if you think she looks fat with 10 or even 20 pounds more hanging off her thighs? Isn't honesty the best policy? Hypocrites.

!!x

Hey now.. I didn't say lie.. but there's a way to do that tactfully and not be an ass about it.

[Kifle]

Yer not far off, though.. Lettin a woman know you think she looks good, no matter what time of day it maybe is a good place to start :) It's more about lettin her know that even though she's gained 10 or even 20 pounds, you think she looks good..

What if you think she looks fat with 10 or even 20 pounds more hanging off her thighs? Isn't honesty the best policy? Hypocrites.

!!x

Hey now.. I didn't say lie.. but there's a way to do that tactfully and not be an ass about it.

Tact is just a word to make it not sound like lying. If I think somebody looks fat in a tight pair of jeans and they ask, "hey, do you think I look fat?", and I say, "They really make your ass stand out." or something to that effect, I'm basically lying without lying. I'm diverting their attention, which is manipulation, which is considered wrong. There is no "ethical" way out of it...you have to lie, or you sleep on the couch. Smart men lie.

[rer]

Yer not far off, though.. Lettin a woman know you think she looks good, no matter what time of day it maybe is a good place to start :) It's more about lettin her know that even though she's gained 10 or even 20 pounds, you think she looks good..

What if you think she looks fat with 10 or even 20 pounds more hanging off her thighs? Isn't honesty the best policy? Hypocrites.

!!x

Hey now.. I didn't say lie.. but there's a way to do that tactfully and not be an ass about it.

Tact is just a word to make it not sound like lying. If I think somebody looks fat in a tight pair of jeans and they ask, "hey, do you think I look fat?", and I say, "They really make your ass stand out." or something to that effect, I'm basically lying without lying. I'm diverting their attention, which is manipulation, which is considered wrong. There is no "ethical" way out of it...you have to lie, or you sleep on the couch. Smart men lie.

Agreed.

[Birile]

:lol:

You all are fugging hysterical!

[teflor the ranger]

Smart men lie.

Genius at work.

[Kifle]

Smart men lie.

Genius at work.

Just call me Einstien.

[Sarvis]

Ya know... not meaning to start something back up here, but I actually looked at the pictures of Fiona Apple from the Oscars... She is a very pretty young woman, but she's ... ummmm.... if my daughter looked like that, I would be very worried about her. I've seen and known lots of people who were naturally slender, or who were downright bony and couldn't gain weight no matter what they tried. Fiona's not one of those. While she may be naturally slender, her bone structure belies a weight loss beyond a healthy point. Her hands are too large for her wrists, her head is too large for her neck, and she shows some physical traits which have been linked to bulemia (that's not concrete evidence she's bulemic, I'm just pointing it out). And the camera's supposed to add on ten pounds.

I've seen other pictures of her where she looked a bit more filled out, instead of gaunt, and she's always been very attractive. I'm sorry, but the pics of her at the Oscars don't look healthy or attractive to me at all. They look almost skeletal. And no, I'm not ragging on my fellow woman out of jealousy or envy. Do you guys REALLY think that's healthy?

Actually I looked at the Oscar pictures and you're right, she does look a bit gaunt.

What you need to ask yourself is: What makes a woman who is already almost too thin become bulimic? The media? Please, she WAS the media AND at least as thin as any model you could name. In other words if someone like Fiona could become bulimic, then it does far more to show the problem lies with the personal insecurties of women than with the images media portrays.

In fact, in a book called <a href="http://www.bookclubs.ca/catalog/display.pperl?0679735291&view=printexcerpt">"The Body Project</a>" you might find that "each generation [of girls], at its own point in history, develops its own characteristic body problems and projects."


Girls have _always_ dealt with issues about their looks and their body, and it's always been a problem. For instance when mirrors started to become common girls began to obsess over their skin and acne, completely without the help of the media or men.

[Kesena]

Ok, my 2c

Alot of women have a lot of insecurities about a lot of things, me, I've got hangups about my skin and my hair. I do not have a thing about my weight and as opposed to the nearly misogynistic views I keep seeing here, I have almost never had another woman call me fat. As opposed to many men who've told my I'm packing far to much ass. Women of even slight aquaintance have told me, with near perfect honesty, that they think I have a great figure.
I have never had a woman tell me I need to wear makeup or dress in a manner I don't feel comfortable in to gain their praise or acceptance. I have never met a woman who wasn't quick to jump to compliments or flattery if I'm having a down day as far as how I feel I'm looking. I have never dieted voluntarily a day in my life. I've never been shot a dirty look, from either man or woman, that could have sent me scrambling out to the gym.
All the girls I've been hanging out with are quick to share compliments and encouragement. I am more than happy to provide the same when they need it.
I've never felt any pressure whatsoever to conform to some media appointed concept of beauty from the other women in my life.


Sooooooo we do it all to ourselves and each other do we?

not to put to fine a point on it but I think that's total BS

[Kifle]

It's a combination of both. Anybody who would deny one side or the other is just stubborn or blind. The grass is always greener. Everybody will always want something they don't have -- be it huge tits, a slim waist, or a nice car. It's the way humans work. They did it back before "media", but the media does compound the problem.

BTW, Kesena, girls flatter to each other's faces, but they dog them when the others aren't around. Virtually every woman, EVERY woman, I have ever met did this. In fact, women often find friends that are men because they can't stand other women. Funny how that works. But, your friends don't do that, of course, so this doesn't apply to you.

[Ambar]

damn Carl .. did you hit the nail on the head or WHAT!