Questions About Area Editor

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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Questions About Area Editor

Postby kwirl » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:55 pm

Does the new mud/code/area/etc have an area creator/editor/kit available like the old one used to?

would it be possible to launch the area building tools over a local area network and act as a functional test-bed to simulate an olc environment?
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:55 pm

Why would you be concerned with OLC for area work? Isn't that something that's more the province of RP-Q because they often need items that aren't nicely predefined?
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Postby kwirl » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:04 pm

I like to be able to see my work in-progress as a real-time variable, so I can run dual connections, watching it in real time as a user walking around, and get a feel for the artistic and creative direction
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Postby Yasden » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:13 pm

Not to mention the ability to view ANSI...TorilEdit's DOS coloring is *gag*.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:36 pm

moritheil wrote:Why would you be concerned with OLC for area work? Isn't that something that's more the province of RP-Q because they often need items that aren't nicely predefined?


Some people don't like looking at a white screen with black text the whole time. Some folks apparentlly prefer a black background with multi-colored text.

Some folks also prefer a faster menu system for flag and script writing as compared to zone writing it in it's raw base format, as OLC typically auto-fills in the blanks on some of the more repetitive tasks.


I suppose it's like comparing mudding on telnet to mudding with zmud. That's the difference between the sojourn/toril docs in a word editor and doing it with a well done OLC.
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Postby kwirl » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:49 pm

that and i was an area designer/builder on a rather large mud with a nice OLC for over 3 years :P
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:23 am

kwirl wrote:that and i was an area designer/builder on a rather large mud with a nice OLC for over 3 years :P


why did you leave there? curiousity killed the cat :)
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Postby kwirl » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:42 pm

i took on an administrative role, the way the players treated us as staff burned me out after a few months
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:48 pm

nod nod thats what i thought ... we players forget sometimes the hassles of what admin deals with
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Postby Gizep » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:35 pm

so just write a vb program that reads the world file format, and parses the crappy ansi codes into real colors, yer talkin easy shiznit..
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
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Postby Raiwen » Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:11 pm

Gizep wrote:so just write a vb program that blah blah blah blah


perl baby.. perl all the way
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:29 pm

python!
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Postby Gizep » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:27 pm

I agree that perl is much better than vb, but vb would be prettier :p
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:42 pm

C++ you heathens!
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Postby Birile » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:48 pm

Sarvis wrote:C++ you heathens!


Since when is Sarvis allowed to post in non-politico-socio-economic threads?

*duck* j/k
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Postby selerial » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:32 pm

Birile wrote:
Sarvis wrote:C++ you heathens!


Since when is Sarvis allowed to post in non-politico-socio-economic threads?

*duck* j/k


Dude, programming language selection is most definitely a social and political holy war level subject. All is good. Move along.
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Postby Birile » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:12 pm

selerial wrote:
Birile wrote:
Sarvis wrote:C++ you heathens!


Since when is Sarvis allowed to post in non-politico-socio-economic threads?

*duck* j/k


Dude, programming language selection is most definitely a social and political holy war level subject. All is good. Move along.


My bad.
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Postby kwirl » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:15 pm

pascal.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:36 pm

Birile wrote:
selerial wrote:
Birile wrote:
Sarvis wrote:C++ you heathens!


Since when is Sarvis allowed to post in non-politico-socio-economic threads?

*duck* j/k


Dude, programming language selection is most definitely a social and political holy war level subject. All is good. Move along.


My bad.


Yep. ;)
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:18 pm

This appears to be more "we want a good editor" than "we specifically want OLC."
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Postby Lirela » Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:08 pm

No no, I specifically want OLC. I used a version of it on another mud, and loved it.

TE turned me off, but I really love building. It would be great to have OLC here.
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Postby vallis » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:10 pm

I was a builder on more then one "EmlenMUD" and he had an OLC based builder that was fantastic.

The interface was simple to use, with room creation / based editing.

You were given a range of #'s. Say.. 1000-1500
Then you can just "room create 1000, room create 1001" etc etc, then link them together, "edit desc 1000" put in a description.

It was quite simple, actually, I couldn't imagine building a zone any other way.

If Toril had that kind of a builder, i'd be inclined to help out for sure.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:18 am

Frankly, doing it in notepad is the best way to learn *how* to write a zone.

OLC or an application that "does it all" might be an effecient way of doing it, but actually doing everything yourself in notepad helps with self-debugging/grammatical/ansi/etc errors when the time comes to test your final product.

You still have copy/paste in notepad, that's plenty to learn with. This philosophy works the same with Visual Basic. While it's cool and fun to do stuff by double clicking, you ultimately have to learn how to code so you know what the hell you're doing.

Please note, TE is a great tool to use if you'd like to have sanity when physically laying out the skeleton of your zone. It can prevent bad exits and loop rooms, and allows you to "walk" the area in case you want to get the directions for pathing mobs (cities etc). Perhaps testing some ANSI (if you can stand the ugliness of DOS emulation colors) might be your agenda...TE is *somewhat* suitable for that.

But relying on an ancient and extremely volatile editor or waiting for OLC is either simply making excuses to not write your zone or learn the mechanics behind areas creation, or fear of taking on a daunting task. I encourage any/all of you who are wanting to write or using TE to take the old school approach. You'll learn a lot more, and your zone will really feel like you put all your effort into it.

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Postby vallis » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:54 am

Personally, I don't have the time or the interest to learn the "old school" method. I've seen an area file before, and boy was it ugly.

If you showed me a quick and dirty way to write a zone, whose final product came out just the same as the old school way, quick and dirty would be my path.

A lot of people probably feel the same way, and an OLC may add to the possibilities of more, funner zones, or just some new stuff to go stomp.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:39 am

I like using CircEDIT, for circle mud to write .wld files. Visual, sexy, adaptable to sojourn.

You could also just download and run a copy of circlemud with OLC, then port the zone over, wouldn't have to change much at all in your wld file.
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Postby Krazax » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:39 am

Aight figured I'd chime in here since I know a little bit about this topic you might say, eventho I swore to myself not to post on this bbs. I started playing again back in mid april, and have been reading the bbs for about 2-3 months (give or take) before that.

For those who don't know, which is probably most of ya, I been gone a while, but about 5 years ago I was running a MUD with a few Ex-Toril/Sojourners. One was Shilmisten (rest in peace) our former Admin forger and the original owner of the mud FRA, one was Chanunendyn (spelling might be off, Laz's RL brother and former Toril coder) our Coder forger, and Clartok I think was there as the Areas Forger at first before I replaced him. After Scott died, a lot of people left, and those that remained reformed the mud under a different name and a slightly different direction. Well we all got busy, I was paying for it all myself, and still being in school.. well hell you can see where I’m going.

Anyways yo here's the deal, so yeah 5 some years ago we ran a couple little muds that had a badass OLC based on the Sojourn/Toril docs (In fact I can still boot an older version of the mud with an initial version of the OLC still on it). Chak took the exact docs and made the editor based off them, with a little tweaking here and there for the different code. Then he went in and added a bunch of other stuff that was coming out at the time. Things like dgscripts (basically AI for mobs). Etc. For those who don’t know, this is where your buddy Savras did all his big building before coming to Toril.

So yeah, because of this OLC, we were able to crank out areas in record time, and debug them on the fly. Then and there. No wait. Bling Blam Boom! If you think Savras built fast here, he was a fucking roadrunner zone builder there. The Waterdeep we made was fucking huge and we made it fast as all get out. We had 4-5 different people working on it at the same time, because we could all access the same zone files via OLC (and talk to each other instantaneously since we were all logged into the mud together. The zone was big, and it was PACKED (heck I can boot this too if you wanna see it yourself) with mobs, so none of this ‘empty’ feeling of zones, or the lack of imagination for road zones I been reading about here on the BBS. Debugging immediately and quickly, that’s a huge advantage. Allowing multiple people to work on the same zone at the same time, is an even bigger advantage. Also, with no waiting on Cyric or Dugmaren (for example) to upload your files to the testMUD server (for example), and then rebooting, etc. it just happened. So it was fast. It also made things a lot more organized. Sure areas people could try and sneak stuff in, but the commands within and outside of OLC allowed you to find things out of whack very easily. In a nutshell we were building another FR world, and we were cranking it out like lightning.

Ok now peep this, because of the completeness of the OLC you had LESS errors and bugs in general. Sorry Yas, but you couldn’t be more off base on that bro. A kickass OLC, like the one we had is a menu system where you simply select your options - this then prevents errors from happening 90% of the time. You’re leaving less room for errors to be made, and the errors that made it thru were usually non-major errors. Notepad don’t do that for ya yo. The second important thing a well done OLC does is check for errors, as ours did this. So you couldn't make ansi errors or script errors, as the editor parsed it on the fly and wouldn't let you proceed until you corrected it.

Yeah I’ve seen the Soj/Toril docs back then and even recently. I’ve always managed to acquire a copy of them over the years. I’ve seen and tested out the Toril Editor as well. I have this to say: Both these mediums for zone building are 10 years behind the times. If the owners of this MUD are serious about expanding their mud quickly, they need to make the induction of a well done OLC priority number one. If Torilmud had an OLC like Chak made, this place would be busting at the seems in no time, and probably a lot less complaints as well.

The only serious advantage working on notepad has is when you are doing the quest and zone docs specifically. There you can have a lot more control to make things happen you want, but also, you do leave more room for possible error.

That zone editor they had/have, sorry, that’s a serious piece of crap.

My final comment I’d like to say is, as a former Areas Forger/Mud Owner (not here folks, I never worked here or owned Soj/Toril), I can honestly tell you that an OLC helps keeps both YOU and each member of your areas staff a LOT more motivated. I think I can say with good certainty that both Cyric and Dugmaren would get excited when someone was working on a zone for Toril and would ask them questions or just give updates about their building. Well take that and multiply it by a factor of 10 when you SEE them online and building, and the individual builders can ask YOU zoning questions as well. Talk about fucking motivation.

I’m Outie!

Example of OLC:

Code: Select all

[    1] Knight's Rest Upon the Plane of Limbo [ !MAGIC City ]
This heroic hall is filled with wild warriors in the throws of mind numbing
berserker rages.  The very fabric of this place instills an overwhelming
bloodlust within you.  The warriors continually struggle against each other
for the mere pleasure of combat.  A glimmer of immortal insanity glazes their
skulls as they throw themselves amidst the chaos.  Such is the nature of Limbo
where the Lord of Battles, Tempus, resides.  His appearance here is as random
as the very land itself.  As the sun rises each day, so do the warriors here,
eager to rush to oblivion in the name of Foehammer.
[ Exits: East (3829) Down (2877) ]
[ 8111] Deiros the black Unicorn steed of Life
[ 8110] Veiros the white Nightmare steed of Death

< *50 84h/84H 0p/0P 103v/103V Standing >
< > redit
-- Room number : [1]    Room zone: [0]
1) Name        : 'Knight's Rest Upon the Plane of Limbo'
2) Description :
This heroic hall is filled with wild warriors in the throws of mind numbing
berserker rages.  The very fabric of this place instills an overwhelming
bloodlust within you.  The warriors continually struggle against each other
for the mere pleasure of combat.  A glimmer of immortal insanity glazes their
skulls as they throw themselves amidst the chaos.  Such is the nature of Limbo
where the Lord of Battles, Tempus, resides.  His appearance here is as random
as the very land itself.  As the sun rises each day, so do the warriors here,
eager to rush to oblivion in the name of Foehammer.
3) Room flags  : !MAGIC
4) Sector type : City
5) Exit north  : -1
6) Exit east   : 3829
7) Exit south  : -1
8) Exit west   : -1
9) Exit up     : -1
A) Exit down   : 2877
B) Extra descriptions menu
C) Minimum level: 1
S) Script      : Not Set.
Q) Quit
Enter choice : 3
 1) DARK                  2) DEATH               
 3) !MOB                  4) INDOORS             
 5) PEACEFUL              6) SOUNDPROOF           
 7) !TRACK                8) !MAGIC               
 9) TUNNEL               10) PRIVATE             
11) UNUSED1              12) HOUSE(r)             
13) HCRSH(r)             14) ATRIUM(r)           
15) OLC(r)               16) *(r)                 
17) UNDERWATER           18) !TELEPORT           
19) DOCKABLE             20) WILDMAGIC           
21) TELLABLE             22) !MOUNT               

Room flags: !MAGIC
Enter room flags, 0 to quit : 0
-- Room number : [1]    Room zone: [0]
1) Name        : 'Knight's Rest Upon the Plane of Limbo'
2) Description :
This heroic hall is filled with wild warriors in the throws of mind numbing
berserker rages.  The very fabric of this place instills an overwhelming
bloodlust within you.  The warriors continually struggle against each other
for the mere pleasure of combat.  A glimmer of immortal insanity glazes their
skulls as they throw themselves amidst the chaos.  Such is the nature of Limbo
where the Lord of Battles, Tempus, resides.  His appearance here is as random
as the very land itself.  As the sun rises each day, so do the warriors here,
eager to rush to oblivion in the name of Foehammer.
3) Room flags  : !MAGIC
4) Sector type : City
5) Exit north  : -1
6) Exit east   : 3829
7) Exit south  : -1
8) Exit west   : -1
9) Exit up     : -1
A) Exit down   : 2877
B) Extra descriptions menu
C) Minimum level: 1
S) Script      : Not Set.
Q) Quit
Enter choice : q
Do you wish to save this room? : y
OLC: Tempus finishes editing room 1.
Room saved to memory.

< *50 84h/84H 0p/0P 103v/103V Standing >
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Postby Lirela » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:36 pm

I think Krazax hit this topic right on the head.

I never built on his mud, but I have used OLC on another mud and tried to use TE/notepad here.

I gave up, TE kept crashing, notepad required so much redundant typing & copy+pasting (with the required going back and fixing little differences) ...

I've been wanting to build for Toril for years, but could never get past the planning stage. When you're busy, and you know there's a quicker, better, easier way.. why use something you know is inferior?

When I was head builder on another mud, I was cranking out large zones 1-2 times a month, including the scripting system Krazax mentioned -- which made things so much fun (we not only gave mobs better AI and combat abilities/spells, we also could create scripts for rooms and objects, so swinging on a rope through the trees was possible, and fun, without bothering the coder for it). Along with all of this, I could help builders as they went, walk their zones while they worked, they could edit something right there and not have to wait until it got re-loaded, and test out their scripts and edit them as they went. (These scripts, while often full of errors, rarely crashed the mud -- I never talked to the implementor about this, but he must have had some code to protect against that.)

All in all, I say OLC is an incredible building tool, and lack of it is probably keeping away some amazing builders who could bring so much to this MUD.

I know Homeland had an OLC system, and I have been told they are trying to adapt it for Toril, but with no timeline specifically in mind.. I have to say I am so excited about the possibility of working on OLC for Toril. I have lots of ideas for cool zones. But I just can't get it done with the current system.
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Postby kwirl » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:27 pm

I've tried many times to use the TE program to build zones...building areas was always more of a passion than playing for me, but that editor was just . . . inept.

When I built areas via OLC, just like Krazax says, it was an amazing experience. We could work with teams online, communicate, and interact in real time with our work, to get a 'feel' of the development. TE kept me from being able to connect to the world. I wanted to be 'connected' to my work, but this just isn't possible with an offline editor like TE.

Anyway, I hope this thread eventually develops into a positive method of convincing the staff to integrate an effective OLC system.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:39 pm

We know.

The Homeland OLC system (which is quite good) will be merged into Toril as soon as possible - its a *very* high priority. How or if access is granted to new builders has yet to be determined however.
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Postby Birile » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:45 pm

kwirl wrote:I've tried many times to use the TE program to build zones...building areas was always more of a passion than playing for me, but that editor was just . . . inept.

When I built areas via OLC, just like Krazax says, it was an amazing experience. We could work with teams online, communicate, and interact in real time with our work, to get a 'feel' of the development. TE kept me from being able to connect to the world. I wanted to be 'connected' to my work, but this just isn't possible with an offline editor like TE.

Anyway, I hope this thread eventually develops into a positive method of convincing the staff to integrate an effective OLC system.


My precise issues with TE, which is why I got disgusted and stopped trying to build anything. :cry:
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Postby kwirl » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:47 pm

thanks a ton staffies!
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Postby Lirela » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:01 pm

Very good news

Thanks for the update Shev!
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Postby Yasden » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:58 am

I'm also taking GUI programming this quarter (sitting in the class as I type this), so I might be able to possibly come up with an application that could do this, combined with my knowledge of VB.

We'll see how it progresses over the next 3 months...:)
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Postby kwirl » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:22 pm

Yas - mad props! If you need help, I can de-rustify my programming abilities and try to contribute. Building areas and content is sooooooo much fun
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bump

Postby hagah » Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:42 am

Hello.. bumping this thread because I am wondering how area creation is done these days.. I emailed mudareas@torilmud.org as per the helpfile in game and my mail got bounced.

is OLC going to happen? If not is there a "zone creation" pack that you could post a link to or just send to people who are interested in making zones?

Thanks,
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:53 pm

First thing you should do is email Cyric at roysoto@yahoo.com with your idea for your zone. If it's something that will fit in, he'll send you the links for the area documents and editor.

As for OLC, it'll get done eventually. We would have loved for it to be done last year, but things keep getting in the way which has prevented it thus far.

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