inconsistent zone rules

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
turg
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inconsistent zone rules

Postby turg » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 pm

I don't really know what will come of this post, but at this point I don't really care. I mean to show all due respect to each and every immortal every time I log on, but something happened yesterday that made me want to shout wild obscenities. We were in the middle of BC, heading to the end fight when an immortal tells us we have to put one of our players back on prime (The Ranger). I have done BC several times, and each time I have done it we have had MULTIPLE sitters for Bel fight and there have been several BC groups that take more than 15 into Bel itself. Here is where the problem lies. There is no consistency with the rules or regulations. When an immortal just comes and makes some rule without it being stated why, or why it was ok before and not now, people tend to think it's a bored imm or an imm just trying to overdue their job.

Now I will say, the group was not very nice about it, shouting things, myself included. I shouted, "We are gonna win anyways," because I truly felt like it an imm trying to keep us down, or bored or whatever. It was the first 15 man guild only guild run on anything in MANY MANY years, that I know of. Either way, I wanted to apologize for the way the group acted, it was not very mature.


So now you ask, why oh why would this make Turgy so mad. So after we get slowed down by at least 30-45 minutes because of a conversation over one stupid sitter, we make an attempt at Bel. We kill assassin, have a few deaths but we had almost taken out the mage as well. We go in for a second run and we DESTROY EVERYTHING. It was the most powerful Bel run I've ever been to and I've been close to 20 times now. It was the second run on bel, and all that was left was the Altar which is !attack and BEL. Bel was at few wounds and we were all at excellent, not planning on fleeing. All of a sudden it miraciously crashes. I have a very hard time believing this was a fluke crash, but I know that point fingers will only get myself into more trouble.

I came back to this mud to try to bring it back to life. If the same things persist, I will be gone before anyone knows it. (Not that anyone cares) I think it is sad that the immortal couldnt reset the Bel fight for us, since it's been done many, many times in the past. What I'm looking for, is a dignified response to my questions and concerns about consistency


I will tell the person responsible for slowing us down 30-45mins therefore made it so that we could not finish the zone. We were reimbursed the corpses, but who cares about exp. We spent 3.5hours in that zone, an hour the day before, and had one mob that was about to die, left. There had been reimbursementsin the past, I don't see why this couldnt happen in this situation. I just have a bad feeling that the crash was not just a "fluke" These types of things are ruining the game for me, my guildies, and my good friends outside the guild. At this point, I've been here way too long to just allow these things slide. Regardsless of the reaction I get from this post, I want the immortals to know, that whether they were in the right or the wrong, I got SEVERAL tells saying "See this is exactly why I don't play here as much anymore. The imms on WoW don't f*ck with you like they do here. Why would immortals do that when the playbase is so low? This was as close to a direct quote as I can get.

I understand the need for rules, but it is not like the one extra person was the endall of the zone. Even after we took the other sitter to the portal, they were forced to leave the zone completely from the portal room. This is just a double standard and honestly I won't tolerate it anymore. I am not threatening anyone, I have no power. I say if you want to ruin this game for me and many others, then so be it. I put my all into this game and quite honestly spend a lot more phours online than most of the imms. I do not cheat, I do not try to be unfair in any way, but I do try to stir up competition and activity on the mud. Please take this post very seriously, not as a threat, but as a disgrunted player who's played here over 12 years now. It's just a little disheartening when you feel like you aren't give a fair shake. I am not saying anything was done maliciously on purpose, I'm just saying their is plenty of chances to make up for these little mistakes. I hope the higher powers can read this knowing I love the game and am just trying to express my concerns because I think it is a reason the pbase is dropping :(

Nuff Said,
Turgy

P.S. On another note, I want to congratulate all the groupies in the last BC run. It was the most dominant Bel fight in the game's history by far, and I just want everyone to know that even though we didn't get much equipment for our efforts, we owned Bel like no one has.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:13 pm

I highly doubt it was intentional. At the same time you were doing Bel, a group of elves and I were down in Zaor. We'd gone much farther than we had before, and were very close to finishing the zone, as far as we knew, and staff has seemed interested in seeing this zone finished.

If it was intentional, then I must not be crawling up as much staff butt as some seem to indicate. If there was anything intentional to it, I'd look to any players who might potentially abuse crashbugs.

Oh, and after all the work we've put in on that zone, it wasn't reset for us, either. ::shrug::
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Postby Vigis » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:57 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
If there was anything intentional to it, I'd look to any players who might potentially abuse crashbugs.



I wasn't logged on this time, and I already told you it was an accident ;P
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Postby turg » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:15 pm

Ashiwi wrote: I highly doubt it was intentional. At the same time you were doing Bel, a group of elves and I were down in Zaor. We'd gone much farther than we had before, and were very close to finishing the zone, as far as we knew, and staff has seemed interested in seeing this zone finished.

If it was intentional, then I must not be crawling up as much staff butt as some seem to indicate. If there was anything intentional to it, I'd look to any players who might potentially abuse crashbugs.

Oh, and after all the work we've put in on that zone, it wasn't reset for us, either. ::shrug::



Ashiwi, did you read my whole post, or just pick one little area to argue about? You named one issue that I brought up in one sentence, when the rest of the post was talking abotu something completely different. I just want the rules for everyone to see, no grey-areas ever. Just plain and simple for all to see so Joe Blow could tell you what you could or couldn't do. If we REALLY want to get into cheating....I welcome the argument because I got a can the size of New Hampshire to unload.....

Also Ashiwi, I bet your group didn't get hassled for their sitter. It cost us 30-45mins. If our group didn't cause the crash, then the slowdown created by the immortal should be looked into. We seriously lost at LEAST 30minutes to this argument, and there shouldn't have been an argument at all anyway. I don't mind the rules being only 15 in zone, actually quite like it. But please, once again, be consistent. The way I see it now, the Imm acted on us when we were doing the zone, but didn't ever before in the last 3-5runs I've done since back. This caused our group the eq and it really sucks and should be reimbursed. I do not know what the time investment in Zaor is, so I couldn't tell you anything about that. I'm just writing this reply Ashiwi because I don't want you to think I wrote that post accusing some immortal of injustice. It looks like you picked two sentences in about 30 or 40 and focused on that.

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Postby Talona » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:29 pm

Let me tell you all how I saw it from my point of view:

It came to my attention that the group in question had a total of 17 people. Being that the current rule allows for 15 plus 1 sitter, I politely asked the group leader to please have a member leave. I get a few petitions that player X is leaving and player Y is coming in to replace player W and so forth from various group members. I again ask that you all simply get it to 15+1 and things will be well, and assumed you would do so. Sometime later, I looked again and count 17 in the room. Apparently I hadn’t made myself clear so I informed the leader someone MUST leave and that I didn’t appreciate having my request blatantly disobeyed. The leader gave me the name of the individual that was to leave and I transported him out so that there would be no further misunderstandings. Then I get some of the ‘not so nice’ petitions/shouts Turgy referred to. I could’ve been super strict and booted the whole group out, but I didn’t. Why? Because that seemed a bit harsh and/or unfair. Don’t blame me for the 30-45 minute delay, as it was the group’s decision to bring beyond the limit. Your current defense that, ‘others do it so we can too’ is both trite and sophomoric. You are apparently under some pretense of partiality. I do not alter my rulings based on who is in the group, nor do I play favorites in my judgments. If I saw any other group breaking the rule, or any rule, I would’ve acted the same. I wasn’t hired to spoil anyone’s fun, despite popular opinion. I wish my job wasn’t necessary, but self-policing frankly is impossible.

My position as an administrator is NOT to go around muddling in the players’ business making sure they have the least amount of fun possible, and it hurts me to be accused of having such a character. I, too, love this game Turg. And it offends me to be accused of intentionally sabotaging a group. I’ve accidentally sabotaged enough of them as a mortal during my playing days to not feel the necessity to do it from upstairs. Nor am here to satiate a hunger for power.

I am sorry your group didn’t finish the zone. I am also sorry you feel you were treated unfairly. However, I feel I acted in a manner consistent with the rules of the game. Further, I extend an invitation to you and your group/guild to speak with me about the matter in private if you so choose. I certainly don’t want players to leave this place, especially over this.

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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:53 pm

2 runs wow. Thats very impressive, did you have people memming out on that second run or did you just do it with potions or just get lucky?

It didn't have to cost you guys 30-45 minutes. Arguing cost you 30-45 minutes. Why didn't you just can the sitter? Finish and then argue? I regularly bring an extra sitter or 2 because i didnt think anyone minded, seems like they do.

The zone has been reset a few times when i lead because an imm traced the crash bug back to the bel fight. If one of the senior coder imms is not on at the time of crash your just pretty much screwed. It helps a lot to schedule your events in public so imms can be present if they so desire. I'm sure the zone has moved into the realm of stable from somewhat buggy and restores of BC will probably not happen anymore... it sucks, you guys essentially wasted 50 hours worth of time, but thats an entirely different issue.

I've been a long proponent of crashes having no "bearing" on game play and supported restoration of particularly long zones and equipment/quests lost, but as it stands the rule is they will reset only if the zone is fubard. The reality is that no "crash" is planned so all crashes should restore the game to the previous state preserving any "losses" incurred by the player. unfortunately this is a lot of administration and overhead and subject to abuse... can you blame the admins for their current policies?

The game crashing at opportune times has been an issue for years and will continue to be so until there are no more crashes or the imms adopt a policy of restoring the effort put into zones that are waylaid by crashes. the problem is we dont have 24x7 experienced coder support. I'm sure some of the crashes are intentional by players, im sure that the gods have accidently crashed it too with god commands while following a zone group around. I doubt that gods intentionally crash the mud to spite a group even rarely. I'm sure its happened, but i seriously doubt it happens more than a couple times a year and im sure those imms don't last long.

on wow, GMs do get involved. they despawned ragnaros' loot when a group used an exploit to win. On everquest they despawned the sleeper at like 2% life because of exploits. Also, in WOW, the game controls how many players can go to an Instance so they do have similar group size limiters but they are hard coded where there are very few hard coded group size limiters in toril. Obviously the "best" solution is to keep staff out of it, however without the code they are forced to get involved. On Final Fantasy you can not attack a mob that has been agrod by a group unless they call for help. That hardcoded feature eliminates the imms from having to get involved in Kill Steal and harrassment issues.

[deleted the comments about turg because i should've just kept them to myself]
Last edited by kiryan on Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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for kiryan

Postby turg » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:18 pm

Kiryan,
I enjoyed reading your post until the end. I never once ever said anything about being the best here or anything, "Neo."

Kiryan tells you 'She tried to pull that s*it with me before, and I put her a*s in her place.

Kiryan tells you 'Hey I'm the expert here, don't go telling me how to play cleric or we are going to have problems."

Now who's ego was that? Hrmm I do remember a newbie Caz/Togel that was blacklisted on evil side for trading numerous purple silk eyepatches. I went over everyone's head and let you into the group because I thought you would add strength to the group. All this because of one group where you REFUSED to vit my groupies and get all high and mighty with me (some call that ego), doesn't make me egotystical. I followed you loyally and without question. The moment i get spammed tells saying my vits aren't up I ask the cleric to vit them, I don't care who it is, it doesn't matter. I honestly think you have quite possibly the biggest ego this game has ever seen and has flourished on this mud for reasons I will not disclose. If you want to make a guildwar then so be it. I love playing here and have been for about 12 years. I just find it ironic that the person who's ego caused the problem is accusing me of having the ego. You basically told me back down bish or you will be dealt with...while you're following me. That shows three things. !respect !loyalty, and a huuuuuuuuuuuge big ego...

Nuff Said
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:31 pm

That crash was not caused by any administrator or staff member, either as their staff or a mortal character. You can trust me on this. The implication that any staff member will take action like that to impede players is ridiculous and very misplaced. These are not the days of gods changing room flags on a player unexpectedly, or of gods restoring mobs, or even of spelling up their friends. That crash was a random fluke. I'm very good at ferreting out what has happened and/or what is happening. Those who doubt, please check with Ssisu.

Believe it or not, and I know several people won't believe me, but the staff doesn't really have any vendetta against some players. Nobody is trying to 'keep players down' or mess up with your chances to beat zones and whatnot. While we are people too behind the keys, and while some players have a more colorful history which calls for more frequent investigations for potential rule violations, these are not driven by some agenda against anybody.

The rule for maximum people in the zone has been in existence for a long time. It's been enforced inconsistently because it's only been broken inconsistently, and while we may be gods on the mud we aren't gods IRL. We can't be aware of everything that is happening all the time. But in the not too distant past, two people were told to leave a Choking Palace run. It's not just you guys. Please, listen and accept this.

I'm very sorry for the crash. You weren't the only group who were left stranded as a result, and it was my decision to not reset it. Just as it was my decision in the past to reset BC when, as Kiryan has said the crash was a result from buggy code there. Or when the crash came about from an immortal mistakenly doing something. Those were special circumstances which warranted a variance from the rule. In every instance, you can expect the rule to be followed with exceptions being just that; exceptions.

We hope you keep playing, that everybody keeps playing and brings more to come. The best we can do is keep trying to fix these problems as they occur, and prevent any others from happening. If this incident has caused you or somebody you know to decide not to play here, then I'm very sorry.

And the crash will be fixed asap.
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Postby Marrus » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:31 pm

kiryan wrote:I regularly bring an extra sitter or 2 because i didnt think anyone minded, seems like they do.


I've been on a couple of your runs. They were doing more than just sitting. They were spelling up too, and that's not even counting the necro soul walker.

On a side note: please can the personal stuff. It's irrelevant and lacks class or tact. If you have an axe to grind do it in quiet.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:22 pm

First off-Mike, yer out of line on Turg...he's a very nice guy who generally doesn't care about eq and stuff...he's just out to have fun.

Secondly-while it'd be nice to think Talona was spiteful and ruined our 4 hour bc run in the final 15seconds, I know she wouldn't

Thirdly-The staff here seriously needs to address the crash issue and zones. It's not our fault the mud crashed...why penalize us? Why discourage people from doing the newer..longer..zones that have been going in? Does length of zone, and the subsequent crash risk figure into the beloved eq calculator? I mean seriously-we were 15 seconds from finishing bc...and all we get is a 'better luck next time' It is also frusterating to watch several BC groups before us get (rightly) reimbursed for crashes...and then we get nothing. At the point that an unintentional crash causes people to be 'disgusted at the game', I think the staff has failed. We don't have 200 people logging in anymore...and we can't afford to alienate the small pbase we have for stupid reasons...that are correctable.

Also-Eili was online during the crash Kiryan...so we had a high coder to fix the situation, and she refused.

Eili stated that bc gets done often now..so it's not a 'big deal'. I'd beg to differ. We had people from Australia, both US coasts, and at least 2 euros in the group...people got off work early...people skipped spending time with family...i for one have to work on the 4th of july because i switched shifts with someone else...we made a big guild evening of it...and had 18 people log on to zone. To us, this was a big deal, and we really don't appreciate our enthusiasm being diminished simply because people do bc more than once per year. On the same note-if crashes are going to continue to be a risk for groups doing long zones, you can be sure that they get done less and less :(

At the end of the day, we were a bit out of line to jump all over Talona. it was silly that she got so nitpicky on the rules...but *shrug*. It's also unfortunate that people were online to correct the situation (put us back at bel, or give us the eq since it was done), and declined. Our group should be reimbursed...as should the Zaor group..and any future group that has a zone setback due to a crash.


And don't hate on Turgy-he's a super nice guy...pick on maxler, he's the asshat! *duck*
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:30 pm

I never said I don't have ego or that I'm not prideful. I have said frequently that I am an asshole. I'll say it again, im an asshole.

I'm not going to cast any spells unless I feel its necessary. You want to lead noobs around who need to be told when to vit go ahead I'm not doing it. If you want to make a big deal out of it because some folks whining about not having vit, so be it. I just don't really give a rat's ass what people want i do whats needed or what I can.

I never said that I haven't lead BC with multiple sitters who were doing more than just sitting. I regularly had an extra enchanter or cleric spelling up people who were going to fight to cut down the zone length. I'm saddened to see that this is no longer allowed at BC (or never was allowed actually) because it really sucks to wait for your enchanter to mem back all their spells, do 15 reduces and scales then blurs after a spank, but if thats not the case then thats not the case.

I hope the implication of doing bel fight with 16 in the fight was not one of my runs because I don't think that is the case.

I never traded psilk eyepatches to goodies. I don't think I ever traded a psilk eyepatch period. I gave several away to evils. you don't know what the hell your talking about as far as this matter is concerned, but that really doesn't matter someone told or propagated a flat out lie and you believe it because you want to believe it. Show me one shred of proof and maybe i can understand why it was commonly believed that I traded with goodies... as a matter of fact, i think during my entire evil career this wipe I conducted 3 total trade with goodies for minor eq and that was pretty much at the end of my time on the darkside.

Trying to start a guild war *boggle* your insane. I regularly defend scions as the elite, powergaming oriented guild and that their attitudes, policies and play style are perectly appropriate for toril and for the scions guild even if its seen as unfair and negative from other perspectives. If there is a "guild war" you guys are fighting it alone, cuz no one of consequence in SoI is interested in being involved.
Last edited by kiryan on Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:33 pm

Yer an asshole!

:)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:34 pm

Maedor wrote:Eili stated that bc gets done often now..so it's not a 'big deal'. I'd beg to differ. We had people from Australia, both US coasts, and at least 2 euros in the group...people got off work early...people skipped spending time with family...i for one have to work on the 4th of july because i switched shifts with someone else...



I really couldn't care less about most of what's in the post but really, when people decide to take off work.. spend less time with their family for a fucking game, there's a problem.

Regardless of what you may think, there's no duty to anyone to reimburse you for time you decided to take off to play a game. No one held a gun to your head to do it, it was done freely of your own free will.

I just think that's a really lame point to bring up, it has nothing to do with the situation.
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Postby Corth » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:42 pm

When admins get bored...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:52 pm

reward for your effort is the foundation of this game.

crashes are not supposed to happen by definition. its perfectly natural to feel cheated when something that is a result of faulty code/design erases your effort.

the crashes aren't prolific enough to blame coders for doing a crappy job, but in an ideal world there would be no crashes. so why the attitude of shit happens deal with it? the admins DO have the power to restore the lost time and effort but CHOOSE not to. I'm sure from their point of view they can not know clearly what the state of the game is at crash and therefore have been lied to and cheated in the past by players, but it would be nice if we changed our view of the situation to "players should be reimbed, but we can't do it effectively so we don't do anything about it right now"

airilyn its a game for you, but its not for everyone.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:01 pm

I'm sorry Turgy, I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just pointing out that I was pretty sure it wasn't any kind of staff vendetta before other people jumped in and ran with it, making this a much nastier thread than it needed to be. It wasn't my intention to be argumentative at all.

Believe it or not, I understand and agree with some of your points.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:07 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Maedor wrote:Eili stated that bc gets done often now..so it's not a 'big deal'. I'd beg to differ. We had people from Australia, both US coasts, and at least 2 euros in the group...people got off work early...people skipped spending time with family...i for one have to work on the 4th of july because i switched shifts with someone else...



I really couldn't care less about most of what's in the post but really, when people decide to take off work.. spend less time with their family for a fucking game, there's a problem.

Regardless of what you may think, there's no duty to anyone to reimburse you for time you decided to take off to play a game. No one held a gun to your head to do it, it was done freely of your own free will.

I just think that's a really lame point to bring up, it has nothing to do with the situation.


I love it when people don't play...and prowl the boards.

As Kiryan said...the point of this game is to be rewarded for your time invested...we invested the time and were not rewarded.

Who do you think you are to tell us what is and isn't a good use of time? I mean shit...wow/tabletop/mud/tv/movies/talking to maxler/pr0n they're all wastes of time. What makes one waste of time better or worse than another?
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:58 pm

Maedor wrote:I love it when people don't play...and prowl the boards.


::boggle::

I thought he was in the ill-fated BC run last night.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:59 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
Maedor wrote:I love it when people don't play...and prowl the boards.


::boggle::

I thought he was in the ill-fated BC run last night.


Nope.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:16 am

I'm a prowler! Yargh!

Anyway, the whole crash issue has bothered me for some time, but never enough to cause a stink over it -- mainly because I don't do zones like BC, or didn't, because I never wanted to be "stuck" someplace for that long; however, I can easily see how this is considered unfair and fair at the same time. While it's been very evident from past history, crashes don't lead to the zone being re-stated to before the crash. This is something to expect. The imms should not be blamed for not doing it, nor should you get mad when it doesn't happen. While it is fair because it's a known rule, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't change. We aren't kids on summer break. We aren't kids that have no responsibilities. We have very limited chances at coming together, especially for full guild runs, and doing long zones such as BC. Those who still play look forward to outings like this, and all this non-reimbursment rule does is dissuade people from enjoying a game that the imms have made for us to enjoy. It defeats the purposes of both imms and players alike. It would only be logical to change a rule that does this. It's counterproductive and archaeic. This game needs to evolve with its players. The rules need to become more realistic to the needs of the players rather than the needs of the players 12 years ago.

I'm sorry that you and your group didn't get to finish, Turg. While you probably wont get your zone re-stated, I think it is a good idea to continue this exchange with the imms in hopes that this rule can be changed.
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Postby Verarb » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:45 am

bahah wow.

i remember this one tia run where we had finished clearing alla baby reds i think and Mysta loaded like 6 more dragons restrung as pink bunny rabbits or something.

It took like maybe two more hours to clear then it crashed, i think because of something she did with the bunny rabbits.

But anyway we sure as hell didnt get reimbursed, not only that as we were clearing astral again lloth came down and killed the leader for barely bitching about it.

hahah good times!

beer!
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:47 am

My opinion counts for nothing, but you're getting it anyway.

It sounds like Talona acted rightly, enforcing the rules to the best of her knowledge and ability. It isn't her fault that the group took 45 minutes to get reorganized. She even transported a group member out of the zone to save time, a measure which would not have been taken in my day.

About the reimbursement.

Had this been a Jot run, I seriously doubt this thread would have even been created in the first place. People understand the crash rules, they've been in place for a decade. However, BC is an epic zone. In this case, cut short by a gnat's wing. There was a senior coder online at the time of the crash who seems to be able to verify the cause... obviously, you can also verify the margin by which Turg's group missed completing the zone.

It's my belief that the senior gods should reward Turg's group as if they had completed the encounter they were involved in. This is a unique case, an incident which deserves very careful consideration. By all accounts, they had overcome the challenge at the point of the crash. The zone was an extremely long and challenging zone, certainly one of the hardest on Toril. Certainly we can recognize that this is a unique circumstance among similiar zone crash disputes. Make it known in no uncertain terms that this IS a unique case which deserves a unique exception, then give the group their reward. They earned it. Yes, you will get a petition in the coming weeks from someone who was doing Thrym when the mud crashed, and they'll want a reimbursement. You can direct them to the explanation of why this is a unique case.

It doesn't matter how Mystra would have handled the situation. We all know that if Mystra were still in charge of Toril, almost none of us would still be here (by choice or by ban).

That's one Ranger's opinion.
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Postby turg » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:47 am

Have to give props to Sarell for the excellent run, he was the leader, not me....
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:30 am

kiryan wrote:crashes are not supposed to happen by definition. its perfectly natural to feel cheated when something that is a result of faulty code/design erases your effort.


I disagree with this in the strongest terms possible. Crashes used to happen all the time, and as a result, we have the "eq load on crash/reset" system that we have today. If Toril/Soj had never had crashes, then they would have had to change the system long ago, because people would have threatened to quit en masse over regularly occurring 500 hr uptimes with no new gear loaded.

Now, any individual crash is not supposed to happen, but overall, crashes in general are historically an expected part of playing Toril. This is part of the added risk of doing a long zone.

If you want to consider a modern MMORPG such as WOW, that does not have a tradition of using crashes as a random eq spawning system, then yes, in theory "crashes should not happen." But taking that assertion and coming back to Toril with it totally ignores years of Toril/Sojourn tradition.

Do not take an entirely different system, where the very concept of a crash has a different meaning, and use that to predicate the idea that "crashes should never happen" onto Toril.
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Postby Malia » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:26 am

I'm gonna say my thoughts on it as we... gonna bypass all the personal stuff and just get down to the whole point of the post and Talona's part in it

1) We were doing an ALL guild run, with the pbase the way it was you dont ever get an ALL guild run on about any zone unless its 3-4man twink of muspel invasion items or something.

2) We were doing an ALL guild run on one of the toughest zones in the game

3) we were at 17 but didnt get asked untill the point of !return to get someone out.. well only way to do this is to go forward to portal room.. but we gotta get there first

4) Talona wanted to take this time to remind us of the rules of only 15 in zone and 1 sitter... fine.. but ya know think about it and say hey only 15+1 sitter, next time you can tele someone out, please do so.. not hastle us the whole time when we CANT get someone out.. i meant WTF is the point of that.

5) ya people are gonna be pissed, everyone wants to be part of an all guild bc run and a run that just deccimated bel in a 2 run epic fight. so acc is gonna be a little hot.. but gods shouldnt be snooping it and responding to it. players should be able to vent on acc without recourse..

so when i look that Talona hasltled us when we cant get that 17th person out of zone, was snooping our acc and responding to things that were only said on acc, and snooping our other guild members to make sure they were at keys AND then the game crashes when we 2runed bell and had him to few wounds and whole group was at excellent? On top of which, it was stable before the run, and its up 50+ hours after the crash.

I have alot of respect for most of the imm here, they have created not only a game.. but a home. i have spent 12+ years here and have seen this mud at its peak and prolly lowest. The pbase is just too small to have stuff like this happen without some player recourse.

To be totaly honest, its prolly the first time in my entire playing time that i have actualy thought that its time for me to hang up my daggers, i dont need shit like this directed at us. Its the first time in well over a year that any guild has done an all guild 15man+ run on any zone let alone an epic zone like BC. To have some immortal be so bored to do that and ruin that is beyond me. You want us to promte this mud and try to increase the pbase, but how can I when all i wanna do right now is delete zmud.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:05 pm

I got a petition response when we had just entered prison asking how many people I had up there. We had 17. Two of them were staying behind because there was no way I would risk silena getting deleted yet again.

If he wasn't there I would of flaunted the rules - or suddenly made up on the spot by bored admin rules - blatantly and thrown 17 people at it because it is fun and I honestly don't care that much. Talona's post keeps mentioning these rules and how they were just upholding them but it isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules that you can't take a red squadron to a zone except where it says gods can make up any rules they like on the spot. Enjoy. Wish I had of memorised them before the whole debacle then we could of just continued and won the day or been teled out and all gone to play with our respective partners.

When we got to just after the prison guards battle at top of the prison we got petitioned again, saying what's going on, you still have X number of people there etc. The 2 people were sitting out at my request.

Now heres the thing...For all Talona saying the requests were ignored, I stated what we were doing and why and....
YOU CANT GET OUT OF THE ZONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rogues, even with khanjari, don't get tele command. I felt that admin had not looked at or understood the zone, had not read the rules and perhaps needed to ask some questions before they start making stupid requests and accusations of the leader. I felt blatantly hassled by a bored imm. They also asked our guy on prime if he was at keys while he was sitting there chatting so you can see why we felt it was directed at our group and guild. We didn't feel comfortable using our ACC channel to even talk about it due to snooping and fearing the retribution of some bored admin. I have no faith in consistancy of the rules whatsoever.

I thought this was over. I really don't care enough about it, and tried to use a more practical means of addressing the issue and loook at the reasons for group sizing and rules in more detail in gameplay discussion. Then I open the BBS one evening and read Talona's post practically publicly accusing me of flaunting rules, ignoring imms and cheating. I have very high regard for the quality and consistency of this mud, upheld by it's rules. I always stick up for the staff and their right to run the game without being hassled by the players. I have no respect for Admins who contribute less to the game than I do hassling a fun guild run because they are bored, and doing it in such a tactless manner.

When after this debacle went on for some time, and the imm chose to respond to our entire group not just me the leader, and to acc comments, why? All that is going to do is stir people up. And in turn most probably spark comments in return from the group members. It crashed on bel, when we logged back on Talona was gone.

I agreed to only take 15 people to the zone even tho it isn't in the rules, and one of the people that had to sit out got time specially set aside to come. I responded politely and did everything in my mortal power to set it exactly how the imm wanted it so that we could just continue. I was getting petition responses still as we were spelling up for Bel, it was really really annoying and ruined the end of a great day for our guild.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:59 pm

Wow.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:32 pm

Hey, I play on the Tichondrius server. Wanna group?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ruxur » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:27 pm

correct me if im wrong here. But i thought that immortals were not supposed to be snooping ACC without probable cause.

If talona is just spot checking our ACC whenever he/she feels like it, then we have a problem.

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Postby Verarb » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:43 pm

It doesn't matter how Mystra would have handled the situation. We all know that if Mystra were still in charge of Toril, almost none of us would still be here (by choice or by ban).


Whoa i wasnt advocating anything this just reminded of some interesting stuff.
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Postby Pril » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:48 pm

Gormal wrote:Wow.


Gormal man ya back on dry land yet?

Pril ***End Hijack***
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:42 pm

Verarb wrote:
It doesn't matter how Mystra would have handled the situation. We all know that if Mystra were still in charge of Toril, almost none of us would still be here (by choice or by ban).


Whoa i wasnt advocating anything this just reminded of some interesting stuff.


Sorry Verarb. You said the M-word, and I think that makes us all a little skittish :D
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Postby Salen » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:47 pm

Ruxur wrote:correct me if im wrong here. But i thought that immortals were not supposed to be snooping ACC without probable cause.

If talona is just spot checking our ACC whenever he/she feels like it, then we have a problem.

Maxler


So lemme see....

You had too many people in the zone, which ALL of us know 15 is THE limit, and now you have deflected it to be all Talona's fault that A) something was said, B) you didn't (couldn't) comply, C) that you were 'snooped', and D) it crashed so you didn't finish?

F'n Whaaa

Follow the rules then bitch about others not following them. If it woulda been me (which I'd never want/take the job anyway) you'd have been kicked out of the zone until a reboot happen when I found 17... 17, not even 15 and a sitter, in zone.

I said the 15 limit sucked long ago but everyone else fell right in line. Funny that I live by it and others done.


And, obviously breaking rules = probable cause.
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Postby Cyric » Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:41 am

Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this issue. Many of you have made my points already, but for an official Forger-type answer you get this post.

1st Issue: I was one of those responsible for setting the 15 person group limit years and years ago. It helps areamakers and coders in zone balance (which is hard enough already as you've all noticed), and keeps things on a certain even playing field. It's been the rule for at least 4 years now, and simply put, someone who does not abide by the rules of a game is cheating. By having 17 players in the group, no matter how much you dress it up, you're cheating. Cheating is bad. Nobody likes a cheater. Judging by the responses above, this includes the playership of TorilMUD.

2nd Issue: Nobody on staff crashes the MUD on purpose. Are there ways? Yes that I know, and yes that Shevy and Eil know, but we don't do it. Ever. That's cheating. Reference the 1st issue above. Trying to blame us for causing a crash is an attempt at covering up the real issues. I have a vested interest in Zaor being completed and that group ended up unable to complete the zone as well, which bummed me out.

3rd Issue: As per the rules (see 'help crash'), we do not do reimbursements due to crashes beyond our control. As Eilistraee stated above, if a crash is due to a known bug with a specific zone, then we're more than happy to help out. But to help everyone everytime we crash is inappropriate and impractical. If we did it for your group, we'd have to do it for every group every time forever, whether we're online to document the issue or not. If we single out particular players/groups, then we're cheating. We don't play favorites. Reference the 1st issue above. Cheaters never prosper.

Again, thanks to all of you that have been the voice of reason on this and other threads. It warms our hearts to know that you are able to police yourselves! We are a free game (UNLIKE WoW, which some of you have inappropriately referenced...apples and oranges) with a very open-door policy and our staff is happy to discuss any issue at any time with anyone. The few rules we have are followed by 99.9% of players, and we thank you all. It's a pleasure running this game for you.

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Postby Malia » Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:33 am

Kiryan-I never said that I haven't lead BC with multiple sitters who were doing more than just sitting. I regularly had an extra enchanter or cleric spelling up people who were going to fight to cut down the zone length. I'm saddened to see that this is no longer allowed at BC (or never was allowed actually) because it really sucks to wait for your enchanter to mem back all their spells, do 15 reduces and scales then blurs after a spank, but if thats not the case then thats not the case

ok Bc got done alot more after kiryan lead it multiple times and gods hovered over and fixed bugs as they went. Reset bc serveral times during several runs.

IF 17 WAS SUCH AN ISSUE WHY WAS IT NOT BROUGHT UP THEN WHEN GODS WERE ALL WATCHING.

nuff said...
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:18 am

Quite frankly, because I wasn't paying attention to the number of people in the zone. I operated off the assumption that it was being done legally, and focused my attention on any bugfixes and the like that needed to be addressed.

There weren't lots of gods supervising Kiryan's BC runs - there was me after I went through some of Dartan's comments on the zone and once I saw it actually getting done.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:34 am

So that everyone is perfectly clear, in the interest of working to zone writers plans, and not being harassed mid lead when we smite it next since I'm pretty sure there will be a close eye:

Are sitters, the one person outside 15, allowed to cast spells that aid the group including spellups, transport, res? Is the sitter allowed to open Bel's door?

Are you allowed to kick someone out of the zone and bring someone else who is better suited to the situation? (different player of course)

Can you have more than one sitter outside of the 15? For example in tia and the early BC runs, we would have someone at the entrance to avernus, someone at the start of the zone to summon people to the group, and someone tagging just behind the group in case of spank.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:26 am

doublepost, apparently. Oops.
Last edited by moritheil on Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:26 am

Sarell wrote:So that everyone is perfectly clear, in the interest of working to zone writers plans, and not being harassed mid lead when we smite it next since I'm pretty sure there will be a close eye:

Are sitters, the one person outside 15, allowed to cast spells that aid the group including spellups, transport, res? Is the sitter allowed to open Bel's door?

Are you allowed to kick someone out of the zone and bring someone else who is better suited to the situation? (different player of course)

Can you have more than one sitter outside of the 15? For example in tia and the early BC runs, we would have someone at the entrance to avernus, someone at the start of the zone to summon people to the group, and someone tagging just behind the group in case of spank.


I don't mean to be an ass, but I'm honestly confused as to how you could kick someone out of zone if they can't leave the zone.

Tia breaks the 15-man rules, and always has. I have yet to see a ruling like that for BC. This ought to be educational.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:24 am

In my opinion, this entire argument is well paralleled by another civil crime:

Speeding.

We all do it. We all do it a lot.

We only get a ticket when we get caught by an officer of the law who is actively enforcing the law and decides to write you a ticket instead of a warning.

That doesn't mean you didn't deserve the warning or the ticket, or that speeding isn't illegal.

Nor does it mean the officer of the law is bearing down on you specifically, or is giving you a ticket because you are you.

To make such an accusation in the real world carries severe consequences.

I have to say that you are lucky that here the imms see it fit to allow such accusations to be made without a harsh response.
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:53 pm

Salen wrote:
Ruxur wrote:correct me if im wrong here. But i thought that immortals were not supposed to be snooping ACC without probable cause.

If talona is just spot checking our ACC whenever he/she feels like it, then we have a problem.

Maxler


So lemme see....

You had too many people in the zone, which ALL of us know 15 is THE limit, and now you have deflected it to be all Talona's fault that A) something was said, B) you didn't (couldn't) comply, C) that you were 'snooped', and D) it crashed so you didn't finish?

F'n Whaaa

Follow the rules then bitch about others not following them. If it woulda been me (which I'd never want/take the job anyway) you'd have been kicked out of the zone until a reboot happen when I found 17... 17, not even 15 and a sitter, in zone.

I said the 15 limit sucked long ago but everyone else fell right in line. Funny that I live by it and others done.


And, obviously breaking rules = probable cause.



so anyway salen, why quote me on this? you didnt respond to anything i said. And if your trying to say that acc snooping isnt bad, then well yer just wrong.
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Postby Salen » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:33 pm

Max,

It was a general response to the whole thread, not just you... I was lazy and only quoted the last "It's Talona's fault the world isn't flat and Crystal Pepsi died" argument.

However, if you use ACC and think it should be a secure, unnoticed chat... if you think it has EVER been that way, you are silly, but...


I would bet in this case it had something to do with an ALL GUILD zone, or so some of the posts say. If you have 17 people from the same guild, having 2 ungrouped and helping doesn't even incur the problem of missing GSay because you move all conversation to ACC. In order to verify that the group is continuing to coordinate 17 people even though they can't have that many, you'd have to snoop ACC.

Edited on Pril's note.
Last edited by Salen on Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:38 pm

Salen wrote:Max,

Also, I forgot you weren't in that guild, that's my bad.


Salen, he is in that guild.


Max, I wasn't there so i don't know all the details but if all 17 people were participating then the gods had probable cause to snoop acc since all 17 people couldn't be talking over gsay. (what Salen said).

Pril
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:00 pm

Here's a suggestion:

Don't snoop. Ask. Inform. Educate.

A law enforcement officer almost always has the option to teach before he enforces.

There are two types of cops. When some kids are skateboarding where they aren't supposed to be.

Cop #1 (Good Cop. Have Donut.)

"Hey, did you guys know you aren't allowed to skateboard here?"

"No."

"Well, you can skate board down at *such and such park*, which is right down there."

"Okay."

(Most likely, kids pack up and go. The law has been enforced and everyone is happy.)

Cop #2 (Bad Cop. No Donut.)

"Hey, you #@!# kids aren't supposed to skate board here."

*gets out of donutmobile and draws pistol*



Clearly, one of these cops IS NOT DOING A VERY GOOD JOB.



So, be a good cop, or else, you're with the terrorists.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:40 pm

Oh please, Teflor, that's going just a tad overboard, don't you think?

If Talona was tuned into their ACC channel, don't you think it's possible that she was doing so because she'd already asked them to adhere to the rules and they appeared to be deliberately breaking them in spite of her request? And if she'd received any nasty petitions before she tuned into it, she'd have that much more reason to do so. Wasn't there a 30-45 minute argument mentioned? Somehow I doubt that was a totally laid back "discussion." If she'd already asked them to remove the extra person from zone and they had refused to comply even after opening a way for them to be removed (and I'm just guessing on this, as I don't know exact events), then it would be perfectly logical for her to tune into that ACC channel to attempt to figure out what was going on, and would even be a preferred method over assuming they had just discounted her request and continued on their way, thus ignoring her intentionally, and then caging the group-leader and transporting everybody else in the zone out to WD, don't you think?

And for all those who think it's impossible to get a player out of BC, there's a tele room right down from Bel that is routinely cleared before Bel is even done. Even if they had to wait this long to get a character out, the extra player should have been removed before they started on Bel.

Comparing an admin listening on an ACC channel to a cop that shoots first and asks questions later is a great example of sensationalism at its cheesiest... especially when these kids had already been informed of the skateboarding rules. Now if Talona had globalled "Scions is breaking the rules!" and then deleted every one of them, then you could compare it to your example above.

Can we at least TRY not to blow this completely out of proportion?
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:42 pm

Image
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:46 pm

NO DONUT
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Postby Maedor » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:35 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Oh please, Teflor, that's going just a tad overboard, don't you think?

If Talona was tuned into their ACC channel, don't you think it's possible that she was doing so because she'd already asked them to adhere to the rules and they appeared to be deliberately breaking them in spite of her request? And if she'd received any nasty petitions before she tuned into it, she'd have that much more reason to do so. Wasn't there a 30-45 minute argument mentioned? Somehow I doubt that was a totally laid back "discussion." If she'd already asked them to remove the extra person from zone and they had refused to comply even after opening a way for them to be removed (and I'm just guessing on this, as I don't know exact events), then it would be perfectly logical for her to tune into that ACC channel to attempt to figure out what was going on, and would even be a preferred method over assuming they had just discounted her request and continued on their way, thus ignoring her intentionally, and then caging the group-leader and transporting everybody else in the zone out to WD, don't you think?

And for all those who think it's impossible to get a player out of BC, there's a tele room right down from Bel that is routinely cleared before Bel is even done. Even if they had to wait this long to get a character out, the extra player should have been removed before they started on Bel.

Comparing an admin listening on an ACC channel to a cop that shoots first and asks questions later is a great example of sensationalism at its cheesiest... especially when these kids had already been informed of the skateboarding rules. Now if Talona had globalled "Scions is breaking the rules!" and then deleted every one of them, then you could compare it to your example above.

Can we at least TRY not to blow this completely out of proportion?


Can noone see how we saw Kiryan using 16-18 people in BC, and no staff members said anything? Can noone understand that once you get into BC, you cannot get out until just before you get to Bel? Can noone understand that when talona said something to sarell about us having 1 too many people in the zone, I sat out? Can noone understand that I HAD NO WAY to leave the zone until just before Bel?

I mean damn...there was precedent set that said more than 15+1 in a zone was fine. We get called out for having 17, and did everything possible at that point to comply.

And Kiryan's BC groups have been given plenty of reset assistance in the past...as they should have.

I'm not going to blame Talona for this mess, but i do blame poor admin policy. Crashiness of the MUD should not impact what zones people chose to do. Crashiness of the MuD hurts the pbase...our pase is hurting already...I wouldn't think the administration would piss off at least 17 people (I'd imagine the Zaor group wasn't too thrilled either), over a situiation that could be corrected in a couple minutes. And while I know talona was enforcing the rules, it seems pretty damn nitpicky (and inconsistant) to take issue with 2 sitters vs 1. I mean damn...a sitting ranger offers NO BENEFIT to a group. It's not like runs of old where one or more necros/clerics/chanters etc sat out and spelled people up.


Enjoy my scattered thoughts..I'm off to work!
Ashiwi
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Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:03 pm

Maedor wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:And for all those who think it's impossible to get a player out of BC, there's a tele room right down from Bel that is routinely cleared before Bel is even done. Even if they had to wait this long to get a character out, the extra player should have been removed before they started on Bel.


Can noone understand that I HAD NO WAY to leave the zone until just before Bel?


Isn't that what I said? It was my understanding that there were still extra people in BC even after the tele room was secured. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
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teflor the ranger
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Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:49 pm

Consistancy in rules, regulations, and enforcement - a set policy, procedures, guidelines that consider the players first, respect their personal privacy, and actions/punishments that have player accessable recourse.

No more cursing at admins. It is alright to disagree and even argue with admins, but it is NOT OK to add in the name calling, swear words and some of the other stuff I have seen players throw at the staff.

Talona is my favorite non-Shar admin (I am allowed to play favorites because I am a player) and has dealt with this situation in such a manner (while not the best) that does not merit punishment of any sort, especially not from the likes of you all.

I agree with both sides of the argument and you all. But somehow I feel twice as stupid.

Thanks.

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