Terrorism

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
teflor the ranger
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Terrorism

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:35 pm

After hearing CNN report on the claims made by certain 'Islamic' organizations after the terrorist attack in London early this morning, I have to wonder where exactly these 'holy warriors' are hiding.

For millennia, civilization has been building themselves out of the dirt that these people tunnel into with their empty madness.

They are truly against the rest of us.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:07 pm

Agree mightily.

These people represent the darkest side of humanity. There is no justification. They need to be punished.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby avak » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:27 pm

Please don't construe this as a defense of the terrorists that bombed London, it isn't. That was a horrendous crime....but

I guess I just don't see things as black and white as Corth and Teflor seem to on this issue. For example, I'm thinking of the 200k civilians that were killed in Japan at the end of WWII...the oft-labeled Last Good War. The entire point of the attack was to kill civilians and basically cow the populace into surrender, which it did with frightening efficacy.

We (America et al) fight them under religious pretext, so it seems odd to attack them on that front. Let's assume that the terrorists and sympathizers have some problem with us that they feel is worthy of war. What exactly should they do? Ask for a meeting with the President to discuss? Line up like Civil War soldiers and just take their licks? Its not like Islam invented this style of warfare.

I would say we, as a society, nation, allies, whatever, should stop pulling babies out of the river and figure out who's throwing them in upstream. In other words, why do these people have this hatred of us? Figuring that out would go a long ways in preventing another 9-11 and 7-7 or whatever they call this. And please, spare me the "they hate our freedoms" bit. I mean, if that's truly what you think, fine, but I don't buy it for a second.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:13 pm

Terrorism isn't a problem that is solved. They are people that beg to be destroyed. If you take away their targets, they will find other targets. If you take away their tools, they will use other methods. If you take away the reasons for their insanity; their jealousy, selfishness, ignorance, spitefulness, will only spurn them down some other destructive path.

Make no mistake. Evil must be smote, not reconciled. A hatred of humanity is not a crime, but an attack on the citizens of London as the one today is a declaration of war against humanity.
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Postby rylan » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:23 pm

They hate us because we do not and will not convert to their religious beliefs. I believe it is as simple as that. Go back 1200 years when Islam was "new", and you will see how it started spreading... the religious believers would come into towns and give the people there three options:
Convert to Islam
Pay an extremely high tax rate that nobody could afford
Get their head chopped off

Yes other religions had their share of mistakes over history, however Islam has had its violent extremist teachings from the start and it continued that way with the growing radical sect.
Not all Muslims are terrorists, however so far all of the terrorists are Muslim.
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Postby Shiallia » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:03 pm

First, I do not, in any way, endorse the behavior of the terrorists.

That said, it has long been believed by those religious fanatics that those you cannot convert must be killed in order to establish your religion as the "global" religion. In the 13th century the christians followed this line of reasoning in the sack of Acre when they not only razed the town but then put to death every living citizen, right down to slitting the throats of babes in arms. Children were thrown from the high walls and women were raped before being killed by horrendous methods. While these actions might have, in fact, afforded the christians a foothold on the "religious community", it quickly became evident that this was not the way to conduct business. They were able to change their tactics to more of a political strongarm technigue over the years, but rest assured they still exert influence even in today's world just by the virtue of their religion. These actions have rang through centuries of Muslims as deeply as the nazi action against the jews did in later times, but the difference is the inability of the Muslims to rise above their "oppressors". I personally do not believe that they hate us purely for our reticence to join their religion but rather they feel that they are STILL being persecuted when their religion is ignored in their own country. They have, therefore, turned to the extreme methods for bringing their religion back into the main scope of the world's accepted religious practices, and by doing so are giving a bad name to those of the Muslim religion who do not prescribe to their methods or views of the interpretation of the Koran. Because of the remoteness (in the grand scheme of things) of those who practice their religion they are not afforded the same venues to perpetuate their religion and more and more Muslims are turning to Christianity for no better reason than that they find life as a christian to be easier than that of a Muslim. This has created more of a panic in the Muslim community as they see it as their religion being finally snuffed out by those who began the barbarity hundreds of years ago. Given that view of the situation, I can see why the fanatics are able to push their followers into this type of behavior. Does this absolve them of responsibility? No. We must do what we need to do to keep them from forcing their religious beliefs on us, just as they feel they are keeping us from forcing our beliefs on them. It is a catch 22 and the history of the christian world is acting as a catalyst to make this, to them, a justifiable course of action. What it all boils down to is a group of fanatics who cannot let go of the mistakes made by our forefathers (and in some cases their own) and learn to live peacefully with other religions.

In conclusion, I have no religion so this is something that I view with very little emotion. The inhumanity of the actions of the terrorist however appalls me as I know that they are choosing a path that will only further the descent of the Muslim religion, as now it is assumed that every Muslim is a terrorist or has a propensity to be one. Due to this, more Muslims are hiding their religion or flat-out leaving it, only making the initial problem that much worse.
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Postby Imis9 » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:37 pm

I really want to add my condolences to all of those to the people of London. I’m sure America and our President will stand with you partly because we went through the same thing. The Brits stood by us, now it’s our turn to stand by them. Also, we see once again that the extremist Muslims are going after another financial center just as they attacked the world trade center.

As I’ve said before, the next 50 to 100 years of history is going to be a war between Western civilization and extremist Islam, and we can not afford to lose it. Avak, these are terrorists, and they consider a good thing to die for their religion. They are not reasonable people; they don’t give a damn about what we actually do or don’t do, they simply want us, the infidels dead. They are terrible, and the answer, sadly, is we must steel ourselves and become more terrible than they are. You’re right about WWII, we sacrificed 200k civilians in war industrialized cities in order to save 500,000 to 1,000,000 American solders’ lives. From an American view, it was a fair trade.

They are people that don’t just hate our freedoms; they have no concept of freedom. I had a number of conversations today about this, and I’ll use one and please do not get offended. In the USA, minorities are like everyone else and have rights to life, liberty and everything else. In the Islamic world, they murder anyone that does not fit their rigid religious tenets. Religion is not just part of the Islamic world; it is everything their world is founded on. Lastly, it is completely asinine to blame the people of London or Americans for what terrorists do. It really burns me up when someone says that. I’ve heard that argument before for things like when a woman gets raped and she just happened to be wearing a short skirt. She didn’t have it coming to her and neither does the civilized world. Quit being silly.

Imis

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it."

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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:37 pm

Honestly, this type of evil has nothing to do with religion. It is merely an excuse.
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Postby Nekelet » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:17 am

rylan wrote:Not all Muslims are terrorists, however so far all of the terrorists are Muslim.


I.R.A.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:25 am

Is Simon (Shalath/Thalash) from London? I sure as hell hope not!
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Postby shalath » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:26 am

Greetings from London.

These people, these terrorists, these embodiments of evil have nothing to do with Islam. They hide behind a religious banner, but they preach a warped version of the teachings of Islam in order to further their own political goals. This is nothing to do with Islam, just as the previous terrorism of the Irish Republican Army has nothing to do with the Catholic vs Protestant debate, however much the bastards tried and paint it that way.

The feeling of solidarity against these people who have attacked our city is unanimous. People gather together and universally condemn these actions - including the millions of muslims who live here, as well as the dozens of other major religions. London is a cosmopolitan city, and we hold tolerance of others in the highest regard. This is not a fight with representative of Islam. This is a war against a group of fanatical terrorists who shall not win, if they blow up half of London they still will not win.

London is a city well used to terror. We survived a sustained campaign of bombing by the IRA, and we have survived these latest atrocities, and we will continue living normal lives. The tube system is already almost back to normal. Only two lines out of twelve remain closed, the Circle and the Hammersmith and City lines. Two others, the Picadilly line and the District line, are operating a reduced service. The Tramlink service is running normally. The Docklands Light Railway is running normally. All bus services are running normally. All overground train services are running normally. We will not be intimidated. We will not be changed. We will not be afraid, and we will go on.

As it happened, yesterday morning when the bombs went off, I was in an aeroplane from Newcastle to Heathrow. We were allowed to land at Heathrow, but since all of the bus and tube and train services from Heathrow were temporarily on hold the queue at the Taxi ranks was huge. Everyone was sharing taxis - people were getting together in groups that needed to go to a similar destination then splitting the bill, in order to help clear the congestion. The community spirit and general goodwill to other people was overwhelming.

I'm going in to work this afternoon, for a meeting with my Manager on the South Bank. I then have another meeting in Picadilly around 5pm. Life goes on. We will not be afraid.

-simon
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:56 am

Best of all that you and yours are ok, Simon

HUGS!
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Postby Vigis » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:57 am

Well said Shalath!

And I am glad you are okay.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:58 am

London is a tough city, and terrorists are fools to think their terror will go anywhere beyond a city block and a half a day.

Mad cow holds more terror in the UK.
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Postby Elet » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:41 am

well imho: all this happened cause some people like to take control of people's home..

imagine your neighbour come to your house and kick you out from your home. how do you feel?

nother example. how do you feel picking your own nose? nice isnt it. and how bout someone came and suddenly pick your nose? how do you feel?

dont simply blame people of what they have done. try to look the other way around.. like why do they do that? what makes them do that?



my 2 cents
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Postby Corth » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:58 am

shalath wrote: We will not be afraid.


Then your already one up on the Spanish!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:00 am

Elet,

I am insulted that I have to read that idiocy in my home. Therefore I must now kill you and your family with impunity. G'day.

Corth (not serious.. sheesh!)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Latreg » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:19 am

Elet wrote:well imho: all this happened cause some people like to take control of people's home..

imagine your neighbour come to your house and kick you out from your home. how do you feel?

nother example. how do you feel picking your own nose? nice isnt it. and how bout someone came and suddenly pick your nose? how do you feel?

dont simply blame people of what they have done. try to look the other way around.. like why do they do that? what makes them do that?



my 2 cents


I.C. hhmm so if I come over, trash your car don't blame me but try and understand why I did it. I think this is the terrorist thinking in a nut shell, why does a dock lick his balls? Because he can.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:04 pm

Latreg wrote:
Elet wrote:well imho: all this happened cause some people like to take control of people's home..

imagine your neighbour come to your house and kick you out from your home. how do you feel?

nother example. how do you feel picking your own nose? nice isnt it. and how bout someone came and suddenly pick your nose? how do you feel?

dont simply blame people of what they have done. try to look the other way around.. like why do they do that? what makes them do that?



my 2 cents


I.C. hhmm so if I come over, trash your car don't blame me but try and understand why I did it. I think this is the terrorist thinking in a nut shell, why does a dock lick his balls? Because he can.


I think what Latreg is trying to say is, "assuming that you can sort out the reasoning behind this heinous act, will it help things?"
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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:31 pm

Trying to determine what makes a serial child molester do those things doesn't change what he is... a sick perverted f*ck. Same with the terrorists... I could care less what their twisted reasoning is, because they will still blow other people up. And in the end it doesn't change what they are... dirty subhuman scum.
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Postby avak » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:47 pm

rylan wrote:Trying to determine what makes a serial child molester do those things doesn't change what he is... a sick perverted f*ck. Same with the terrorists... I could care less what their twisted reasoning is, because they will still blow other people up. And in the end it doesn't change what they are... dirty subhuman scum.


I don't agree with the notion that the "terrorists" are somehow this pre-determined group of people that just need an excuse to carry out their perversions. That would certainly be a convenient way to compartmentalize the situation (ie us against them), but I'm afraid it is much more complicated.

If you listen at all to the rhetoric coming out of Iraq and al quaida, etc it is pretty obvious what the problem is here. Now, had they flown a B-1 over London and bombed a military base would that have been somehow more fair and less twisted?

My point is not to somehow justify their tactics. What we need to do to stop these kind of attacks though, is to understand what is causing them. Do you really think we can just arrest all the terrorists? Or kill them? If we could, we'd have been out of Iraq a year ago, killed Zarqawi and Bin Laden and Sadr and the rest long ago. Isreal can't stop Palestine by the most outrageous brute force tactics they can dream up. Ironically, the harder we pound with our military hammer, the more we facilitate their causes.

The vast majority of these situations have been resolved by political negotiations. This "war on terrorism" will be as well.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:57 pm

If terrorists had any reasoning whatsoever, then their actions could be understood.

Terrorists do not posess reason.

And the reason is not our military hammer or our ideological export of fredom and human rights. It's ridiculous I have to remind you of other terrorists in recent times, the unabomber, Tim McVeigh, the IRA, etc.

IT IS FOOLISH TO THINK THAT TERRORISTS HAVE A REASON FOR ANYTHING.

Mosques are MOST OFTEN bombed by those claiming to be muslim.

When men make the conscious choice to kill violently women and children they could never know, in order to send a political message, negotiation is defeat.
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Postby Corth » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:03 pm

What the Islamic radicals want we cannot give them. They want the destruction of Israel, the only civilized country in the region. They want western society to stop corrupting their children with devil stuff like.. television and barbie dolls. They want to revert to the dark ages, establish a caliphate, run by a powerful dictator who doles out strict islamic punishment for horrible crimes (like, for instance, showing one's female face in public). Its not like we can just sit down at a conference table and hash this out. Don't be stupid and naive.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Latreg » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:41 pm

Corth wrote:What the Islamic radicals want we cannot give them. They want the destruction of Israel, the only civilized country in the region. They want western society to stop corrupting their children with devil stuff like.. television and barbie dolls. They want to revert to the dark ages, establish a caliphate, run by a powerful dictator who doles out strict islamic punishment for horrible crimes (like, for instance, showing one's female face in public). Its not like we can just sit down at a conference table and hash this out. Don't be stupid and naive.

Corth


I think Corth has hit the nail on the head. Look at how they treat their own people. The word is getting out that some countries are free-ish and women have rights etc. This is destroying their way of life and control over their women and religion. The countries have been ruled with an iron fist for so long and they are loosing that control. Therefore you focus on the "evil world" outside their borders and it's so evil you must blow it and yourself up. After all it works, the human rights concerns in other countries has been out of the news for a long time, people have forgotten about human rights in China as an example. The focus now is on terrorism.
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:48 pm

Something very important the terrorists are trying to accomplish is that white ppl mistrust those that look arab.

This gives them a much easier task recruiting new people for their cause.

And in many ways they are succeding. E.g. arab looking people are more closely looked at in airports.

The biggest difference is in the peoples minds though. Once the average white begins to mistrust the arab-looking; then terrorists have succeded.
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:51 pm

What is "stupid and naive" is to believe that they have no motivation for thier actions and that by studying their motivations we cannot defeat them. Military minds through the ages have long defeated their enemies by knowing their motivations. In order to fight ignorance you must understand not only its base motivation, but the extent to which the fanatics will go to establish what they feel to be their "rightful" place in society. This is not to say we should sit down like some shrink and try to find out what part of their childhood caused these fanatic tendencies. Rather, we should learn to not judge a book by its cover. They do have reasoning, as warped as it may seem to the rest of the civilized world, and to state otherwise is to prove that there are some who are just ignorant to the ways of those who do not follow our methods of humanity. I understand the anger, I understand the desire for revenge. What I do not understand is purposefully putting on blinders and not seeing the truth of the situation. These people are lashing out like some spoiled child who has had thier favorite video game taken away, and we must react as any parent would; firmly and decisively.

As for other terrorists....apples and oranges, my man, apples and oranges. Mayhap you should study the motivations of those terrorists and compare them to these? They had reasons, well-documented in the investigations that followed their attacks.

When men make the conscious choice to kill violently women and children they could never know, in order to send a political message, negotiation is defeat.


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Postby Nokar » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:22 pm

Disoputlip wrote:Something very important the terrorists are trying to accomplish is that white ppl mistrust those that look arab.

This gives them a much easier task recruiting new people for their cause.

And in many ways they are succeding. E.g. arab looking people are more closely looked at in airports.

The biggest difference is in the peoples minds though. Once the average white begins to mistrust the arab-looking; then terrorists have succeded.


It is more than just white people that mistrust middle eastern lookin people.

I know some middle-eastern people who, if they dont know the person, find others of their origin suspicious.

Has nothing to do with color as per say. Has to do with what country you have residence in. Granted If you look middle eastern you are associated with the middle east.

Let me point this out to you. All those that know me will know that I mean absolutely no offense with this statement I am about to make. So do read anything into it. If you have questions ask me since I am the one who will be saying it.

In the US today the so called 'white man' is becoming the moniority. My kids have less of a chance of getting a education, food, transportation, grants, scholorships, etc simply because they are NOT a minority.
I have nothing against anyone as long as they treat me right and my friends right. I know people from all over. But when I see that we are one of few countries that bow down to immigrants and foreigners I can see my great grand-father and his father rolling over in their grave!
Seriously what other country forces their own people to speak different languages just to order damn food? Or forces their own to suck it up and deal with it?
Our own people black, white, brown, orange, purple polkadot! Our own AMERICANS have fought and died for this country to stay FREE and to stay AMERICAN and it isn't anymore.

I was actually sitting watching tv the other day and turned the channel and heard a commercial spoken in 3 different languages. And I live in a small city in Indiana!

I am not against anyone due to race, or religion or even gender. But if you are a foreigner and you come into my country and refuse to learn our manners, our language and expect us to bow down and kiss your ass I have but one thing to tell you... Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you! This is america.. not the middle-east, not the orient, not mexico, not cuba, etc.. It is america.
If we travel to your country we're made to eat your food, speak your language, and abide by your laws and customs.

As far as terrorists.. How can you deal with someone who has been brainwashed to give their life for a person for a belief that if they die they automatically get them a place in their version of heaven? How can you rationalize with a country that puts automatic assault rifles in the hands if 7 and 8 year olds, who will strap a bomb to a baby or surgically implant a bomb inside a woman or a child to blow up a few people. Not even guaranteeing any deaths or injuries. They kill themselves for what? Their leaders martyr them. You never see their leader strapping a bomb to himself do ya? NOPE! He's the smart one he has convinced a populace of people to die for HIS cause not THEIR cause.

They had no qualms with taking the lives of innocents over hear. Even celebrated it! Yet the human-rights people say 'no no no.. we cant lower ourselves to their level...'

I'm F*cking sorry but if we have rules of engagement and they don't we won't win! Look at vietnam. Little guys in black pajamas would sit in a DMZ and fire at our troops while we coudl not return fire due to it being a DMZ for americans. Those same people also used babies, mamasans, as human shields knowing that americans play by rules and have feelings for the woman and children. They don't.. To the leaders of the radical movements and cells they are intelligent in the point that all their followers are simple cattle.. Their cannon fodder. To be used like a disposable lighter. You never see them actually out on the front lines do you? NOPE!


So please don't give me this... We need to figure out why they are blowing shit up, and taking innocent lives. And please don't bring up that it is against the 'WHITE' man and how they view the arab looking people. Go find a middle-eastern in the military, an asian, a black, and mexican in the military they all give the middle-eastern people a second glance because the terrorists are middle-eastern and they can appear as the least threatening person you can picture then all of a sudden BOOM! your dead

Okay,
I'm done ranting.. If I offended some people sorry. But I believe in what I say. It is the truth, logical, and absolutely point blank!
Something very important the terrorists are trying to accomplish is that white ppl mistrust those that look arab.

This gives them a much easier task recruiting new people for their cause.

And in many ways they are succeding. E.g. arab looking people are more closely looked at in airports.

The biggest difference is in the peoples minds though. Once the average white begins to mistrust the arab-looking; then terrorists have succeded.


What you should have said if anything at all should have been worded like this!!
Something very important the terrorists are trying to accomplish is that AMERICANS mistrust those that look arab.
This gives them a much easier task of recruiting new people for their cause.
And in many ways they are succeding. E.g. arab looking people are more closely looked at in airports.
The biggest different is in the peoples minds though. Once the average AMERICAN begins to mustrust the arab-looking; then the terrorists have succeded.

again please don't make this a RACE issue!

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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:34 pm

Corth wrote:What the Islamic radicals want we cannot give them. They want the destruction of Israel, the only civilized country in the region. They want western society to stop corrupting their children with devil stuff like.. television and barbie dolls. They want to revert to the dark ages, establish a caliphate, run by a powerful dictator who doles out strict islamic punishment for horrible crimes (like, for instance, showing one's female face in public). Its not like we can just sit down at a conference table and hash this out. Don't be stupid and naive.

Corth


With all due respect, while I agree that this isn't an issue that can be resolved with one discussion at a conference table, I completely 150%--no, 200%--disagree with the idea that Israel is any more civilized than some of the other countries in the region. When a government sanctions political assassinations and steals land from another group of people and uses U.S. sympathy to get their way, I don't see that as very civilized at all. My opinion, by the way, has nothing to do with Israelites, but rather the Israeli government's policies and practices. A people should not be judged solely by their leaders' actions, else we ourselves (those of us who are citizens of the U.S.) are surely damned. :x
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Postby avak » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:20 pm

I am not against anyone due to race, or religion or even gender. But if you are a foreigner and you come into my country and refuse to learn our manners, our language and expect us to bow down and kiss your ass I have but one thing to tell you... Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you! This is america.. not the middle-east, not the orient, not mexico, not cuba, etc.. It is america.
If we travel to your country we're made to eat your food, speak your language, and abide by your laws and customs.


Interesting sentiment considering how foreigners have interacted with Native Americans for the past 200+ years. I doubt TB blankets were in the rules of engagement back then.

Ironically, the narrow world views that are fully on display here that are exactly what need to change before we have any true safety. And because this discussion is staying so civil, let me just add that by "narrow" I don't mean ignorant, I mean that you aren't able to see other perspectives well, for whatever reason.

Perhaps the British are a bunch of cowards, but my prediction is that once they digest this event they won't be sending -more- troops to Iraq to "kill the terrorists." I think, I hope anyway, that the UK will respond more in a way that I would personally advocate than one others in this discussion might.

I'd be interested to hear how exactly we deal with this problem otherwise.
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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:18 pm

I'm curious as to how you would like the UK to respond... say to the terrorists 'Now that you've blown up and killed our people, lets sit down and chat about why you're so mad over a nice cup of tea' ?
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Postby avak » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:32 pm

rylan wrote:I'm curious as to how you would like the UK to respond... say to the terrorists 'Now that you've blown up and killed our people, lets sit down and chat about why you're so mad over a nice cup of tea' ?


That's not a response to my question, but I will answer yours. Arrest the people that committed the crimes and punish them to the full extent of the British law. THEN, try to stop the madness by determining the root causes and addressing them.

And again, another irony is that after how many decades of Isreali and Palestinian violence, that's exactly what they're doing...sitting down and chatting about why they're all so mad, over cups of tea.
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:03 pm

To Nokar: I used the term white people. I did that because I'm not american. When I use the term white I'm refering to more than if I used the term american.

I am from Denmark.

As you may know then the ones that have claimed responsibility have threatened Italy and Denmark because we are the other european troops in Iraq.
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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:26 pm

avak wrote:That's not a response to my question, but I will answer yours. Arrest the people that committed the crimes and punish them to the full extent of the British law. THEN, try to stop the madness by determining the root causes and addressing them.


Thats fine, but my problem is I fail to see the solution when the the terrorists blow themselves up. There isn't anyone to arrest. I don't know how to determine an individual's root cause for this if he killed himself in the act, except from the rhetoric that we hear from Al-Qaeda.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:20 pm

Shiallia wrote:
When men make the conscious choice to kill violently women and children they could never know, in order to send a political message, negotiation is defeat.


Can you say Vietnam?


Yes, we can, but to even believe that the two share any similarities shows that you have a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of both Vietnam and the entirety of terrorism.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:21 pm

Shiallia wrote:What is "stupid and naive" is to believe that they have no motivation for thier actions and that by studying their motivations we cannot defeat them.


"What is "stupid and naive" is to believe" that they have motivations or that their motivations may be understood.

Clearly, terrorists are not above killing anybody, be it women or children, mosques or the world trade center, brits or spaniards, iraqis or yemenis.

What is stupid and naive is when their motivation is not painfully clear.
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:37 pm

To the contrary Teflor, my father served in-country in vietnam and I have heard the tales and witnessed the emotional scars that his actions, UNDER ORDERS, caused him.

And attributing lack of motivation to terrorists seems to be a case of misjudging your enemy and leaving your flank open.
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Postby Botef » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:18 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Shiallia wrote:What is "stupid and naive" is to believe that they have no motivation for thier actions and that by studying their motivations we cannot defeat them.


"What is "stupid and naive" is to believe" that they have motivations or that their motivations may be understood.

Clearly, terrorists are not above killing anybody, be it women or children, mosques or the world trade center, brits or spaniards, iraqis or yemenis.

What is stupid and naive is when their motivation is not painfully clear.


Depends...Whats your definition of Terrorist? If you think all the 'terrorists' the United States labeled as such Post 9/11 than I without a doubt disagree that they are lacking understanable aims. Not all 'terrorists' by american definition are out killing people. Many are peaceful. Are they to throw down their opinions and give up because some extremist element is out doing heinous acts for the same reasons?

I saw first hand what 'terrorists' are fighting for in the Phillippines in 1999 while traveling there...Those people are not out blowing things up and taking hostages for some bullshit extemisit aim...They are demanding freedom to be their own nation. Many of them have tried other avenues of resolve - but as it stand now just being remotely associated with them can mean your career, your home, your life... Keep in mind the 10% muslim populace of the phillippines (the other 90% is almost all Roman Catholic) all live on one island for the most part. If you ask me they have every right to be pissed off because the Filipino government has done nothing to attempt to resolve the issue in a cival manner...While you may say 'how can you be cival with people who blow other people up' do keep in mind that not everyone supportive of their cause does this. There is a large element of regular people who protest, pass out leaflets, etc. Not to mention many of these people have tried to resolve the situation in a cival manner and been met with nothing but agressive squashing tactics. These same people are categorized as 'terrorists' because they support the same cause, but does that really make them terrorist scum? When we stand up and 'support' their government with military presence we get roped into the deal for supporting what they feel is an oppressive regime that has gone to great lengths to prevent people from this religious background from having any degree of power in the last several decades. Their actions may not be right, but that doesn't null and void their reasons by any means.

These are not dumb ass extremists, but real people who want a chance to be their own country in a region that was NOT Roman Catholic to begin with. The Filipino government has not once listened to these requests, has stated that their filipino and have to deal with it, and have been responsiable for all sorts of military operations that target not just gun wielding fanatics, but ordinary people trying to educate the public on their issues in a peaceful manner. Shooting peaceful protesters, harrassing political figures, and a unneeded military presence on their own turf fuels all of this...You may not have ever seen this, but I sure as hell have. If I had been one of the people I saw get brutally taken down, beaten and arrested by military order from the government for doing nothing but handing out leaflets you think I'm just gonna drop it? That will only further fuel my fire. Terrorism is often born from the desperation of people who feel oppressed not just some extremist guy with a long beard.


I think a lot of Americans forget that we very strongly protect the seperation from church and state, but many third world countries do not do this. Look at how many countries voting system splits the nation into groups of religious sects that vote not on domestic issues but which party best represents their dogma's. And not all terrorists are muslim, anyone who honestly believes that is stupid (Oklahoma Bombings, Maoist Rebel's in Nepal, etc, etc, etc).

In short, yea most 'terrorists' are suck ass little bitchs killing people but with the advent of 9/11 our national and global definition of a 'terrorist' has changed dramatically. In our eyes someone who dontates money to these causes is even a terrorist. To deny some of these people have real motivations and reasoning behind their choices however is false.

Everyone of my Filipino realtives that lives over there agrees these people should be given their fuggin island and left the hell alone. They all see how the governments brutal tactics do nothing but give more sympathizers reason to join up - and its this understanding of the situation that would bring resolve, not brute force military tactics and the belief these are all faceless evil bastards bent on dominating the world.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:48 am

I've always thought it should be called 'Cowardism' - Randomly killing people who have nothing to do with those who run the country in which you hate is pretty stupid.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:51 am

Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:What the Islamic radicals want we cannot give them. They want the destruction of Israel, the only civilized country in the region. They want western society to stop corrupting their children with devil stuff like.. television and barbie dolls. They want to revert to the dark ages, establish a caliphate, run by a powerful dictator who doles out strict islamic punishment for horrible crimes (like, for instance, showing one's female face in public). Its not like we can just sit down at a conference table and hash this out. Don't be stupid and naive.

Corth


With all due respect, while I agree that this isn't an issue that can be resolved with one discussion at a conference table, I completely 150%--no, 200%--disagree with the idea that Israel is any more civilized than some of the other countries in the region. When a government sanctions political assassinations and steals land from another group of people and uses U.S. sympathy to get their way, I don't see that as very civilized at all. My opinion, by the way, has nothing to do with Israelites, but rather the Israeli government's policies and practices. A people should not be judged solely by their leaders' actions, else we ourselves (those of us who are citizens of the U.S.) are surely damned. :x


I'll chance the asshole overload and put in my 2c.

I'll agree w/Birile on the whole Israel being the most civilized nation. From what I know, they use some pretty underhanded tactics to piss off the Palistinians as well.

I don't mean to insult anybody, and I'm not looking for a flame war at all, so keep that in mind when I respond. How can we be so mad at these people? I mean, yeah, they are killing innocents to furthur their twisted agenda, but did we not do the same thing? Did we not go into Afghanistan and kill some innocents? For what? Because WE didn't like THEIR way of life? Oh, and don't forget we needed that pipeline for natural gas built, and their government was standing in the way of that. What about Vietnam part duex? We create false information to invade Iraq (don't even try to deny it now...it's pretty much out in the open after the British memos). So what did we do? We went to Iraq to "take out an "evil" dictator". Yeah, I don't agree with how he ran things, and I'm sure a lot of people agree. I'm not saying I'm not glad he's out of power, but it could have been done better. Anyway, so what did we do? We go over there and kill how many civilians while bombing the city? I think when I checked a few weeks after the war it was close to 11k. How many did we lose in the WTC attacks? 5-10k? Ok, so they are evil and we aren't? We had justification and they didn't? Think of what we did to their country the last time we invaded. We left some great fallout clouds for them to deal with -- and live cluster bombs. I'm sure that has killed quite a few innocents as well.

Seriously though, we have out reasons, they have theirs. It is pretty blind and audacious to belive yours are better than theirs -- or that your way of living is more respectable than theirs. I'm not saying I agree with what they want. I'm not an advocate of making women wear full body garb, however, what is the amount of restriction we should put on covering the body? Shouldn't everbody have the right to go around naked if they wish? Isn't mandating any clothes a restriction of freedom? We make people wear clothes to protect others' rights because of what WE see as decent action and behavior in public, they do the same thing. Is it because theirs is more of a restriction than ours that makes it "evil"? How about our drug policies compared to denmark or even parts of Canada? Are we "evil" because we infringe on people's freedoms? How about our seatbelt laws? How about our suicide laws? I'm sure there are countries who see the enforcement of seatbelts as a restriction of freedom. I'm sure there are countries who see suicide as a freedom as well...think about Japan. It is an honor in Japan in certain instances; however, are they going to come over here and bomb us because we don't agree with that? Hell, they may believe that our government is denying its citizens an honorable death by enforcing, or even having, such laws. Are we evil because of this? Would Japan be justified if their "intentions" were to save our citizens from this "tyranny"? Would they be justified in killing countless innocents to enforce their ideals upon our nation? Take it one step furthur...

If Japan did invade and then set up military across the country after overthrowing our "evil" government, do you think for a second that militia groups wouldn't form around the country to combat them? Do you think we wouldn't have people bombing their country in an attempt so send them a "leave us alone" message?

The bottom line is, every country restricts a freedom and can justify it most often. Most countries do what they see fit to keep their citizens from a state of nature. Some may seem tyranical in doing so, but who's to say their justifications are selfish? Over half the world sees the US's justifications for the current situation as selfish. So is the answer, "well, they're stupid because if they think that way, they support terrorism." That's just ignorance and blind "patriotism".

Now I'm not saying that every justification is right -- but those are MY ethical and moral standars. I have no intention to make somebody live the way I do, and I expect the same from them. If my rights as a human are infringed upon, or my government breaks the social contract, I'm going to stand up and say something. If another government comes to my home and does the same, I'm going to say something; However, I'm not about to go and attempt to fix the problem by doing exactly what they are doing...only under the guise of diplomacy and "goodness".

Closing thoughts:

If our country is so awesome and good and well intentioned, why is africa in the state it is now? Why did we go to Iraq instead of dealing with the multitude of problems on that continent. Why haven't we gone in and bombed the many tribes still left in Africa because of their barbaric ways? Hell, some of them slice their babies at young ages just to put scars on them? For what? Tradition... Why haven't we delt with the South African problems? They've been around much longer than the Iraqi and Afghani problems. You wanna know why? Because there is nothing they have that we could get that would help pay for our war. We are not an altruistic nation, hell, we aren't even a utilitarian nation. What we have been doing is pure egoism and I'm starting to believe more and more that the ends are never going to justify the means.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:52 am

Oh crap. Asshole overload. Goodbye thread.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:57 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Oh crap. Asshole overload. Goodbye thread.


Lol, teflor sensed a distubrance in the force like right after I posted :) Lol.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:00 am

Shiallia wrote:To the contrary Teflor, my father served in-country in vietnam and I have heard the tales and witnessed the emotional scars that his actions, UNDER ORDERS, caused him.

And attributing lack of motivation to terrorists seems to be a case of misjudging your enemy and leaving your flank open.


Are you saying he was a terrorist, or anything like one?
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Postby Corth » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:08 am

You are absolutely right Kifle. The US is not in the middle east to help anyone. We are there to carry out our strategic agenda. Realistically, non-muslim Africa is unimportant. I should hope that George Bush would use our tax dollars for something more worthwhile.. like, securing a source of oil in the middle east, establishing a genuine arab democracy, obtaining a geographically strategic parcel of land from which attacks on Iran can be launched. You get the picture...

Let the derailment being... :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:18 am

Corth wrote:The US is not in the middle east to help anyone Kifle. We are there to carry out our strategic agenda. Realistically, non-muslim Africa is unimportant. I should hope that George Bush would use our tax dollars for something more worthwhile.. like, securing a source of oil in the middle east, establishing a genuine arab democracy, obtaining a geographically strategic parcel of land from which attacks on Iran can be launched. You get the picture...

Let the derailment being... :)

Corth


That's fine, but it'd be nice if he didn't try to lie to his own people and the rest of the world. However, I'm not going to keep myself for much longer from comparing him to Hitler. It's ethical practice to haggle for oil prices...not steal them, cripple a country and endanger your own citizens in the process. And it's getting rather annoying to see people still believe in the whole "we're there to liberate the people from evil!"

Also, I was already aware of why we didn't help Africa instead of the Middle East. I just wanted somebody in the capitalist camp to admit it :)

Just remember: we're no better. Our justifications are no less selfish or evil. We are there for economic, political, and strategic purposes -- the opposite of what has been told to us, and what people have been regurgitating on this board since 9/11.
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Postby shalath » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:12 am

I'm not usually one for generalisations. Today is the exception.

It seems to me that many americans have their heads stuck very firmly and deeply up their own arses.

Some of you will know perfectly well that I wasn't referring to you.

If you're not sure whether I am referring to you or not, I probably wasn't, but I might have been so you may as well get offended.
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Postby Deshana » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:52 am

Fear is the motivation.
Fear is what they want to inspire..
Attempting to panic Great Britain is like trying to panic a tranq'ed hibernating bear. Panic isn't what they'll get.. they might be in danger of it rolling over on them.

There is fear in Madrid, but also again, an unwillingness to simply bow down. As free countries we move forward, rebuild, and continue to attempt to share our sometimes idealistic veiws with those nations not as free as our own. That is our vanity and naivity, yet also a strength we should be proud of.

There is a sad, sick feeling that comes over me, thinking of all that fanatical hate produces in our free nations.

I watched a small boy after 9/11 telling the world via newscast that he wants them "all to die." These attacks focus less on terror.. then as a destruction of innocence. I don't always agree with the tactics used in so called "occupied countries" I don't always agree that freedom can be forced on a people. Freedom is valued more by those that know it I suppose.

Yesterday I watched the news with a sick feeling in my stomach.. and the thought "we're next" crossed my mind. I wonder how my own country will stand under such an assult when the attacks on our sister nations damage our spirits. We will hold our heads high and continue on towards tommorow. We will not bend, nor be caged by a fanatics ideals.

What worries me, is when the "saviors" use the same tactics as the "terrorists". Freedom cannot be valued if its shoved down the throat so far that one chokes to death. In this way the "freedom" becomes another form of slavery.

Something to think about, in a late night ramble.

We will not bend to terror. Nor should we enforce freedom until it breaks those we wish to aid.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:24 pm

shalath wrote:I'm not usually one for generalisations. Today is the exception.

It seems to me that many americans have their heads stuck very firmly and deeply up their own arses.

Some of you will know perfectly well that I wasn't referring to you.

If you're not sure whether I am referring to you or not, I probably wasn't, but I might have been so you may as well get offended.


This is just a case of the pot calling the kettle black...

USA: "We're right!"
Other Country: "No, you're arrogant -- we're right!"
Repeat with other words...
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Postby Shiallia » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:57 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Shiallia wrote:To the contrary Teflor, my father served in-country in vietnam and I have heard the tales and witnessed the emotional scars that his actions, UNDER ORDERS, caused him.

And attributing lack of motivation to terrorists seems to be a case of misjudging your enemy and leaving your flank open.


Are you saying he was a terrorist, or anything like one?


He feels that his actions labeled him as one, yes, rather than as a soldier following orders.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:22 pm

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but sofar, the only thing "stupid" or
"naieve" about this thread seems to be Teflor. His argument of what is or
is not terrorism in his opinion versus others is quite interesting. The last
couple posts would have made much more sense if a little "in my opinion"
were added, versus trying to sound like the end-all, be-all voice of authority
on the matter. And then, just as things seem to be turning against him:
"asshole overload" and leaves.

The actions of terrorists are unfortunate. But i believe that evil, and terror
is a matter of perception. I could see how the middle east would see the
US as terrorists. If i were an Iraqi, i would probbably point my finger at
the US as the #1 source of terrorism in the world. Perhaps if i were cuban
i would think the same thing. These, along with many southeast asian
countries really don't have a high opinion of the US and its tactics. There
is one large difference i can see, however. For the mostpart, the US is
pretty right in your face, go in, blow stuff up, attempt to achieve an objective, etc. In a lot of the other isolated terror attacks by smaller
organizations, and imho it is mainly associated to their lack of size/funds,
etc. (they don't have the US taxbase to fund them) they use more
stealth, deceit, and suicide techniques.

Still not seeing my point? Quick flash back to Iraq. Someone comes into
your country, forcefully, looking for "weapons of mass destruction". You
are habib. The average iraqi citizen. Your country is being invaded by
people with different beliefs, wether they be political, religious, etc. and
you are just supposed to sit there and watch it happen? Yeah, your
current ruler is kind of an asshat, but it is all you have ever known, so
you defend him with your life. But there are just so many, and the
attacks have disrupted all "organized" military. What to do now? we can't
let the infidels take over without a fight! And this isn't at all to mention
the insurgents in the area who have so much distaste for the US and
bringing western civilization into their area that they come to iraq
just to stir things up in a similar manner.

So in reality, yes, the US can be seen as a terrorist. And vietnam could
be seen as terrorist activity. It is all a matter of perception.
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Postby Naled » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:05 pm

I find it funny Israel is mentioned as a country opposed to terrorism. Do any of you know how it was founded originally? By blowing up innocent civillians to convince the Britsh who controlled the country at the time to give the Jews their own country. The leader of this terrorist band responsible for killing hundreds of people who just happened to live in the wrong country became the first president of the state of Israel. To this day Israelian presidents get very cranky if reporters remind them of that.

So we judge terrorists very differently depending on where they come from. We really hate terrorism when it's aimed at us, but if it's aimed at our enemies it's ok.

That having said, I'm really upset that one of my favourite cities got bombed. Not in the least because it's close to where I live, and even more because I'm Dutch and everone predicts we're next on the list.

The goal of Al-Quada is to create a pan-arabic state. They use terrorism to make us afraid of muslims and thereby drive muslims into their camp.
So far the reaction of most people is pretty much just as Osama wants. Kill all the muslims, bomb all those countries back into the stoneage. Invade a country because the leader tried to kill my dad! (Note that I supported my country in helping the US in Iraq because i think you should help your friends even if they do something stupid).

We can all learn something from the Brits reaction to this latest tragedy. Shally, Simon, I salute you for your reaction. I stand with you on this.

Naled

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