why bidding systems suck

[Larem]

i spent 3 hours doin musp invasion other day, first zone i've done in i don't know how long, and when we are done, i find out that the leader, is using a bidding system, and i walk away with absolutely nothing......and we had 15 items, 15 in group........


okay, i'm sure you all wanna be fair and shit, but lets face it, bidding systems hurt people like me that aren't on for prime zoning hours, and don't zone that much. it allows people who are on and do zone alot the chance to keep winnin.

i know alot of people use bidding systems now, dartan, kiryan, lilithelle, turgy......i'm sorry, but i've been on all of your leads, and i can not find 1 purpose for it. it does not make things more fair, it just increases the odds of people who you always take zoning of winning. If you want people to stop being greedy and hording everything, then beg for the appocolypse, because it will never happen.

in my opinion, bidding systems were invented to give friends/lovers/guildmates/chars you multi..........a better chance at winning than everyone else.

bidding systems suck, i could be wrong, but i highly doubt it.

[Ruxur]

yep, yer wrong, thank you please drive through.
no really, partly joking i just like to get a rise out of you.


what i would ask you is what do you propose as an alternative?

do you think strait dice all the time is fair?

why would you NOT want to reward people that follow you to zones all the time?

would you participate in manlove with Pril?

do you see how this system allows you to eventually choose the item you want to win? as in save up your points until the item you actually want is in the split? Granted you have to do alot of zones without getting jack to do that. But wouldnt you rather have one item you really love, than a sack full of stuff you really dont want and end up trading at a loss?

[Kifle]

why would you NOT want to reward people that follow you to zones all the time?

This is his point. Toril is a place where some people get to come only when all other alternatives have failed. People know who the script users are, so their spells will be faster; therefore, they will be picked most often because they "know their class better." So, lets say you have larem, an asshole that nobody likes, gets an invite because all the other warriors are either tied-up in another zone or offline. Because Larem doesn't get picked for kickball often, he has to do the same amount of work with exponentially less chance of return.


Another senerio: What if person A has been playing for 12 years and has done Jot invasion enough times to do it blindfolded. Now, person B has done jot invasion a total of 5 times, but with the same leader who always happens to find invasion. Person A gets invited to zone and so does person B. When it comes to the end, even though person A has done the zone more times, knows the zone better, and has probably been screwed on a lot more rolls for whatever item they are wanting, person B has five times the chance to get the same item. This destroys the whole, "Well, person B came here more times, so they have more right" theory. Even if you would still try to justify it by saying those times that person B went were with that leader, it would hold little ground. The reason being is that it is not because person B choses only to go to the zone with the leader in question, or that person A choses not to go to that zone with the leader in question, but it is that the leader choses person B over person A more times than not. This leads to the eventual hypothesis that this system is in place not for true equality, but for reasons of favoritism.

Another flaw: Lets say person A hardly plays, like myself, and everytime they get on, they are given a chance to do muspel invasion. Person B plays all the time, and this is the first time they've been invited by this specific leader. Since every time, lets say 5 again, person A has been on and did muspel, do they truely deserve 5x more bids than person B? Who would ultimately use the item more? Who do you think, in terms of quantifiable usability, most deserves the item? Granted this is not the case most times, but it is likely.

would you participate in manlove with Pril?

Who wouldn't?

[Sarell]

okay, i'm sure you all wanna be fair and shit, but lets face it, bidding systems hurt people like me that aren't on for prime zoning hours, and don't zone that much. it allows people who are on and do zone alot the chance to keep winnin.

I don't like bidding system's simply for the admin headache but this statement makes me wan't to design one so that another set of BC sleeves don't end up in the dead orc.

[Larem]

i agree with whut you say kifle, but, being one who is on when most are alseep, doesn't constitute not being here to use items.......

the 2nd point you made seemed most accurate, favoritism is the way i see bidding systems, you take your friends over other players, and when you do take those other players, your friends get the items, and lets face it, if they zone all the time, some people do 3-4 zones a day, then what is the real point of them getting more of a chance at things than people who don't zone that much?

bidding systems are kinda like the democratic system of government we live in, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. people can't find jobs, or a place to live, or money with which to eat with. Then they do what most do, either give up, or turn to crime, how many people do you know that have had things taken by other players and not returned? i'm not saying that if everyone is given a fair chance that this won't continue, but i'm saying it's a good start to end behaviour like this.

if the government (read leaders) want their rich corporate friends (read friends/guildmates) to get all the benefits while others suffer, what is the point in continuing to follow said government (read leaders).

Just something to think about, and to answer your question maxler, yes, i think straight dicing is the best route, obviously the gods did too, since they coded it. I think people who horde (read wankers) are out of line in this splitting method, but where ever you go, there's bound to be assholes.

um......your final point is valid maxler, given that everyone zones regularly, say atleast 6x a week, and with the same leader, since it seems everyone thinks they hafta have a bidding system. what about the people who can't zone that much because of RL issues, should we all just stop logging on all together? should we all just accept that fact that no matter what we do, we'll never even get a CHANCE at winning an item? to me, this is what it's all about, at least having a chance to better yourself, no matter if you do 50 zones a week or 1, why do we do zones? sure, fun ranks right up there, but that's not all we go for.

think about that, don't think about yourselves, think about people who aren't on as much as they'd like to be, or are, but not during prime zoning hours.

it's not that i'm whining because of not getting anything, it's the fact i wasn't even given a chance, i know there are others like me, who can't get on when most stuff is going down because RL has become more demanding, i'm thinking about them too, i could name names, but it wouldn't do any good, they'd probably just bitch at me too, everyone does.

Yo sarell, you saying that someone who sits through 9 hours of 1 zone, shouldn't get a chance at winning because someone else has done it before? man, that's cold, what else is cold is an invoker who never plays his warrior and beats you on bc sleeves, when you are a warrior main.....*COUGH*.......I'm NEVER gonna forget that :P specially since of the 5 bids on it, 3 were invokers.........

i don't think i'm wrong here, and i KNOW Fiona is HAWT!

[Nekelet]

First, I don't zone much. I play off-prime, and relish the rare invite to just about anything. Most of you know that I'm willing to help, if time permits.
I *really* don't understand the venom behind this topic.
Bidding systems were established to help those people who religiously went to zones without winning. (myself included, when I could)

Sometimes, the dice just SUCK, and someone has to step in and make a system to correct it. Tracked bids, assuming they're announced at the start (which they have been when I've gone) are a very fair way to make sure those who spend the time eventually get a crack at a decent item.

For example, I've done spob.. god knows how many times. I've yet to win a 1st round bid. I've won a 2nd round cracked once. However, I've only gone under a bid system twice.

More to the point, on my 1st 2 runs in SC, I won goggles. Is that fair to the more experienced people? Is it fair to me that I haven't won shite since then?

The dice *can* suck. The dice *can* favor a complete loser.
Even though it reduces the odds for those of us (again, myself included) who rarely hit zones, I can't find any fault with rewarding those who faithufully help w/ a specific zone. If you go enough you will win. Period. The key is, once you win, the advantage is erased. How is it a bad thing that someone who has lost 10 times straight in <x> has a bidding advantage to someone who is on their first run to <x>?

*perhaps* now the systems aren't working as intended, but I really don't think they were built as a way to favor the "chosen." My only complaint would be that there's no (or little) communication between leaders. *If* shared bid tracking could be worked out between leaders, you'd have the ideal fair system. Again, assuming once you win in a zone, stats are reset.

<edit> 1 word, 1 formatting.

[Kifle]

The flaw is that you're talking about the "faithful". There are no "faithful" players. Most people will do most zones if they have the time. Another thing, as I stated in my earlier post, most leaders pick from the same handful of people everytime they go, whether it be in-guild or their clique, so this system really screws the oddballs. I've been around long enough to know there are those people, regardless of whether they deserve it or not, only get taken to zones when there are no other options. This mostly happens with clerics, enchanters, and tanks. To the bottom of the bucket people, this bidding system is the pits. This system ONLY helps the people that are in the guild or in the clique. That is why the system is flawed. It may not be intentional favoritism, but I know damn well how a lot of guilds are when it comes to zoning and spliting eq, and I also know that most guilds don't like nonguildies winning an item that somebody in the guild needed. That's why this system is around. And no, I'm not talking about any one guild in specific, I've been a part of many guilds both in this game and on many others...it's always the same.

[Latreg]

Larem also stated there were 15 items and a group of 15, seems to be simple math

Larem all I can say is either you go with the flow or don't go when those kind of bid rules are in effect. I've read people's bid rules, some of which I don't like so I wouldn't go under those guide lines. It's a personal choice thing I guess.

[Ragorn]

You're always welcome to lead.

If you look at Toril as a game where you only zone once every two weeks, then you clearly benefit from dicing systems. Dice favor the short-term, where you've got a crack at the best item on your very first trip. For the "oddballs" who don't fall into a clique and only get to zone sporadically, you're right... for the one zone they do, they are very unlikely to get the item they want. You can call that unfair if you want.

But most people have grown beyond the point where they expect to get something shiny at the end of every zone they do. For most people, spending 4 hours in a zone is an investment... they won't really have a shot at the item they want right now, but the leader will make sure that EVENTUALLY they're guaranteed to get it. You do the zone with the same leader three, four, maybe five times, then your work pays off and you're gifted with whatever you want from the split. You just need to look past the idea that you deserve something valuable every time you go to a zone. Groups are so big that that idea just doesn't hold up anymore.

Is there favortism in who gets to go to a zone? Of course there is, and there should be. You play games with your friends. Toril is a game, it isn't a democratic environment where every character is supposed to receive equal zone time. You want to lead a zone, you grab your friends, then you fill holes. If you're an "oddball," your best bet is to make friends. Toril is a social game, you won't accomplish much if you choose to play in the sandbox by yourself. Make some friends, start investing your time in zones, and you'll start seeing a payoff.

[kiryan]

history systems are unfair to some people
striaght dice systems are unfair to people who are unlucky

both systems are "fair"

There isn't much to say about straight dice systems... except that player A goes to spob 50 times before winning their first heart at a cost of about 250 hours and player B wins two hearts in 7 trips at a cost of 18 hours per heart. I'm sure player A feels that the straight dice system is "unfair". Your never going to achieve large #s so a straight dice system really isn't random or fair.

on historical systems:

the draw backs to a history system is that its of marginal value to you as a follower to follow a leader who has his favorites. Their favorites will have built up points and win the best eq unconditionally and you will never rack up the points to compete because you get invited only when they can't find someone they like better. If eq means that much to you then in this situation you have to resist the urge to follow them for a crappy shot at a piece of good eq.

Another question you really have to ask yourself is will this leader be around in 6 months when i've finally accrued enough points to win something valuable or are they going to burn out.

Another thing to watch out for is leaders who purposely manipulate group make up in order to give their number ones prime shot on prime zone eq. For instance, maybe you get invited to zones where the eq is mediocre and build up a lot of points but for some reason never get invited to the tier 1 zones even though you have a lot of points.

Ultimately your only real solution is lead and dice eq out how you think is fair. Everything else is pretty much pissing in the wind. It sucks to spend a couple hours in a zone and find out after the fact that the bidding system is going to be very unfavorable to you. I highly doubt the leader intentionally was trying to screw you... the point is you could've asked the leader what system they are using to avoid the problem and the other would be that now you know and can avoid this leader in the future.

There is no perfect system, you just need to prefer leaders whose system treats you the most "fair"

[Kifle]

history systems are unfair to some people
striaght dice systems are unfair to people who are unlucky

both systems are "fair"

There isn't much to say about straight dice systems... except that player A goes to spob 50 times before winning their first heart at a cost of about 250 hours and player B wins two hearts in 7 trips at a cost of 18 hours per heart. I'm sure player A feels that the straight dice system is "unfair". Your never going to achieve large #s so a straight dice system really isn't random or fair.

Pure randomization is the only way to be techinically fair...without the quotations. If the leader doesn't know what the number will be, there is no way to manipulate the system; therefore, favoritism stops at the group formation and the oddball, if there is one, doesn't incure any of the negativities of it. In your case of the guy going 50 times vs. the guy that went 7 times...it's luck. If you buy 7 of the same type of scratch-off lotto ticket, you will have a lower percentage of probability to win than the guy that buys 50 of those same tickets. However, life does not adhere to the laws of probability in their strictest sense; so, the guy that bought 7 tickets may win all of them while the guy that bought fifty may win none. However, since there is no possible way to manipulate the system, well, relevant to this case, it is considered 100% fair. It is only when someone is allowed to manipulate a situation in favor of their agenda can you consider it unfair.

Basically, like in American politics, it is the process who's fairness must be assured rather than the outcome of said process.

[Cap'n Touk]

There's a ton of posts on this already, I remember starting a thread back at the beginning of Toril asking what everyone thought. I found bid systems came in 3 types, and you just had to know when to use each one based on your group composition.

1) Hand Outs
Hand outs work great in close knit groups like guilds, friends, or the evil race situation we had years ago. These groups know all of their members, know who's put in the most work, and don't resent people who spent more time helping the team out when they earn something you haven't gotten yet.

2) Random Dicing
Random dicing situations work great in pickup groups full of people that might not ever group with you again. In this situation you don't know the person rescueing you or stoning you, you don't owe them anything, and there's no feeling of being a team, there's no satisfaction in having the OTHER warrior get a twilight.

3) Point Systems
Point systems work fine somewhere in between the 2 extremes listed above. This is where the good races usually end up because you usually know 50-75% of the group members. The trick here is to balance the favoritism you give to frequent members and the fairness you have to provide for the oddballs.

I think one solution would be to customize the bidding to match your group-type. If you end up full of regulars, do a hand out to someone deserving. If you end up all oddballs then just dice and tell everyone with bonus points they can use 'm next time, or only let them use 1 of their bonus points.

Cap'n Touk

[Llaaldara]

Larem,

I think you're failing to look at this from a different point of view. Bid systems reward active playing players. You can increase your chances of winning the item you want, simply by playing more often. Anyone can do this if they really want to, even you. It also increases the chances of sporatic players as well. Just don't bid. Save your points, eventually you'll get exactly what you want. If you want it now, play now. If you want it later, play sporatic.

*shrug*

Would you rather have zoned for 2-3 weeks straight, every night doing multiple zones (hours and hours of zoning), only to loose every single time to someone who doesn't need it for the char they are playing, or is going to trade it, or hardly ever plays at all, or is same class as you and lower level, etc, while you DO need it for your one and only char?

If you were in this situation, wouldn't you look at all the longtime/established players who keep beating you out on bids like this and start getting sinking the feeling that the already rich are just getting even richer and really don't care about the poor new players despite how much they claim to?

From what I've been hearing, newer players actually tend to favor web posted bid systems (since players can check their chances ahead of time before even doing the zone) , instead of constantly "loosing to someone with 5-6 decked out alts that doesn't even need the item they won" from the standard dice method time and time again.

Also remember, on the weekends 'Prime Zoning' time is pretty much all day and night long. :)


PS. Nice post Ragorn :) Good points that were very well put!

[teflor the ranger]

Technically, bidding systems do not actually improve one person's chances of winning a bid.

They improve specific character's chances of winning a specific bid with a specific leader.

With straight dice, the chances of winning an item increase in parallel with the number of zones a character participates in.

Call it fuzzy math.

Honestly, bidding systems are fine, so long as they are known and their movements are predictable and easily foreseen.

But quite frankly, anyone dull enough to set one up other than straight dice is wasting a whole lot of effort for nothing.

[Mitharx]

How does straight dice increase the chance of winning with each zone a character does?

[teflor the ranger]

Sounds like you misunderstood what I was getting at Mitharx, but tell me this:

Who has won more items from zones: the guy who's gone to 5 zones, or the guy who's gone to 500?

[turg]

I can agree with a lot of points and i sympathize with them as well. I just want make a couple things clear though. At least I dunno ten to 15 times in the zome people were talking about Turgy points. I didn't try to hide this info from anyone and If you did not know Larem, I'm sorry.

I also want to point out, however, that Larem did bid on the item in which many people bid. While he didn't have much chance at that item, he could have had any of the other 11 items that weren't bid on the first round. He chose to go after the big item. I've also asked after nearly each of my groups for suggestions with my system. I guess my groups aren't for everybody.


Lately however, I have told the group the bids of everyone, who was in it the running and who wasn't and why. The list of points is also available for people to see. I am trying to run a fair system and that's why I've asked for suggestions.


Those who have zoned with me and have been able to claim an item with points, see the benefits of the system. I don't think there's one person who's on my Turgy Point list who hasn't collected something of value yet, or doesn't have claim to an item very soon. I even ask those people with high points to request zones so I can keep a good constant flow of incoming and outgoing points.

Like I said, I'm sorry for those who feel don't get a "fair shake." I really am trying to be fair though, honestly. All the posts have been read and noted. I just wish someone could come up to me instead of flaming on a board.

Turgy

[Mitharx]

I had a thing typed up, but for the sake of making sure that we understand each other, I'd like you to explani what you mean by the chance of winning going up with number of runs made. Because if you're saying what I think you're saying, I don't think you're treating dicings as independent events.

[Kifle]

I had a thing typed up, but for the sake of making sure that we understand each other, I'd like you to explani what you mean by the chance of winning going up with number of runs made. Because if you're saying what I think you're saying, I don't think you're treating dicings as independent events.

Run away mitharx, teflor has a ph.d. in statistics!

[teflor the ranger]

I had a thing typed up, but for the sake of making sure that we understand each other, I'd like you to explani what you mean by the chance of winning going up with number of runs made. Because if you're saying what I think you're saying, I don't think you're treating dicings as independent events.

Actually, I am speaking specifically about winning a bid as a dependant event. IE the number of wins depends on the number of attempts. I am not speaking about instantaeous probability dealing with one independant event.

And really, why would I be wanting to look at a single dicing?

With straight dice, the chances of winning an item increase in parallel with the number of zones a character participates in.

If you got one zone, you get x% chance of winning an item. If you go to five, you get 5x% chance of winning an item.

That's pretty much all I was saying. Hence "chances of winning an item" and not "chance of winning an item each time".

[Mitharx]

Even assuming they're dependent, they shouldn't increase by that much and that often. And assuming they're dependent, the chance to win doesn't go up with each trip unless the number of bidders is decreased. The chance to win at all does increase, but I have trouble making a parallel analogy with that. If by chance you mean the number of opportunities to win, then that is correct. The more times you go to zones the more opportunities you have to win at all. However, I'm not sure how you'd play this against other people's chances to win (at all).

If you have a different version, I'd like to see it because I'm really fuzzy on my stats. However, I've run this through a few people and it seems to be okay.

[Llaaldara]

Do people who play the multi-state lottery, and win the jackpot, keep playing?

Do people who have played the multi-state lottery their whole lives and never won the jackpot, feel their chances increased to win the lotter afterwards? And are happy about it?


If you could play the Multi-State Power Ball Lottery, and everytime you played, your chances to win the jackpot increased every so slightly.. would you be more inclined to play, and play more often at that? What if you knew that eventually you would win because your chances would become so great you couldn't fail, but once you won, you went back to what you started at. Would you play it again? And again?

Edit: What if you could choose when you DID win the jackpot?

[Ruxur]

well lets take into consideration the turgy points system

http://www.midsummermeadow.com/turgy/turglist.htm

A point total has been assigned to zones based on thier difficulty and length, you do the zone you get the point.

Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

At the end of the zone you submit your bid just like you would in any other zone. Then the leader (turgy) sees who bid what and how many points they had. Then he accesses who NEEDS the item and dices between those that meet qualification of points + need.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.

In this system if you save your points for stuff you really want/need then you will get it if you A zone enough B dont bid on stuff you dont need.

[Pril]

well lets take into consideration the turgy points system

http://www.midsummermeadow.com/turgy/turglist.htm

A point total has been assigned to zones based on thier difficulty and length, you do the zone you get the point.

Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

At the end of the zone you submit your bid just like you would in any other zone. Then the leader (turgy) sees who bid what and how many points they had. Then he accesses who NEEDS the item and dices between those that meet qualification of points + need.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.

In this system if you save your points for stuff you really want/need then you will get it if you A zone enough B dont bid on stuff you dont need.

Dude consider this: An illusionst goes to a zone because Nomo can't be there. This is his first time with turgy because Nomo is almost always there. He looses bid on what he needs becasue he onyl has 1 or 2 or whatever points. There is no good system really that you can use straight forward. It's hard to make a good bidding system and Turgy is definately trying to work out kinks and make it better all the time. But no system is perfect so you it's not as black and white as you make it out to be,

[Salen]

Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.

So, by this system, you COULD (not saying you do) 4-5 man suck zones for a couple weeks, accumulate phony points, then use that to justify why all the good stuff gets handed out without dice from real zones... Or, as Kiryan? said, could manipulate the group to include only people who have lower points so the high people get stacked with items.... got it.

I'm sure we ALL can think of people from the past that did essentially this same thing. Somehow when real items came up, only their buddies ever got them.

Pretty much every bid system beyond dicing is made to manipulate the outcome to be more favorable to the sub-set of people you run with. I personally don't care since I zone when I have the time, not because I need 'X' item (If that were the case I'd still live in Jot... Stupid Kost). You can do whatever you want, just tell people before hand.


One other thing. Why would people go to BC knowing that they have no shot in hell of winning since players X,Y, and Z will be handed whatever they want because they tagged along more?

[Ruxur]

not all zones count for points. i believe the quickest zone that still gets a point is meilech swamps, its a 1 pointer.

zones done as a guild (scions) do not count as a point either

[Ruxur]

One other thing. Why would people go to BC knowing that they have no shot in hell of winning since players X,Y, and Z will be handed whatever they want because they tagged along more?

because you cant ever tell if a person is going to use thier points on an item.

also bc is a 2 point zone. 3.5 hours worth of work these days. BC isnt the 9 hours it used to be.

[Ruxur]

You're always welcome to lead.

If you look at Toril as a game where you only zone once every two weeks, then you clearly benefit from dicing systems. Dice favor the short-term, where you've got a crack at the best item on your very first trip. For the "oddballs" who don't fall into a clique and only get to zone sporadically, you're right... for the one zone they do, they are very unlikely to get the item they want. You can call that unfair if you want.

But most people have grown beyond the point where they expect to get something shiny at the end of every zone they do. For most people, spending 4 hours in a zone is an investment... they won't really have a shot at the item they want right now, but the leader will make sure that EVENTUALLY they're guaranteed to get it. You do the zone with the same leader three, four, maybe five times, then your work pays off and you're gifted with whatever you want from the split. You just need to look past the idea that you deserve something valuable every time you go to a zone. Groups are so big that that idea just doesn't hold up anymore.

Is there favortism in who gets to go to a zone? Of course there is, and there should be. You play games with your friends. Toril is a game, it isn't a democratic environment where every character is supposed to receive equal zone time. You want to lead a zone, you grab your friends, then you fill holes. If you're an "oddball," your best bet is to make friends. Toril is a social game, you won't accomplish much if you choose to play in the sandbox by yourself. Make some friends, start investing your time in zones, and you'll start seeing a payoff.

btw, well said, one of the most intellegent opinions ive read on the subject.

[Ruxur]

turgy dosent always take nomosolol. Thats why we have alts.

i have seen many other illusionists in turgy groups.

well lets take into consideration the turgy points system

http://www.midsummermeadow.com/turgy/turglist.htm

A point total has been assigned to zones based on thier difficulty and length, you do the zone you get the point.

Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

At the end of the zone you submit your bid just like you would in any other zone. Then the leader (turgy) sees who bid what and how many points they had. Then he accesses who NEEDS the item and dices between those that meet qualification of points + need.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.

In this system if you save your points for stuff you really want/need then you will get it if you A zone enough B dont bid on stuff you dont need.

Dude consider this: An illusionst goes to a zone because Nomo can't be there. This is his first time with turgy because Nomo is almost always there. He looses bid on what he needs becasue he onyl has 1 or 2 or whatever points. There is no good system really that you can use straight forward. It's hard to make a good bidding system and Turgy is definately trying to work out kinks and make it better all the time. But no system is perfect so you it's not as black and white as you make it out to be,

[Pril]

turgy dosent always take nomosolol. Thats why we have alts.

i have seen many other illusionists in turgy groups.

well lets take into consideration the turgy points system

http://www.midsummermeadow.com/turgy/turglist.htm

A point total has been assigned to zones based on thier difficulty and length, you do the zone you get the point.

Points have been assigned to items according to the demand for the item.

At the end of the zone you submit your bid just like you would in any other zone. Then the leader (turgy) sees who bid what and how many points they had. Then he accesses who NEEDS the item and dices between those that meet qualification of points + need.

If you abstain your points accumulate.

case in point, i abstained for 2 weeks on the turgy system and worked my way up to 11.5 points in time for BC. Because i had the highest point total by far in the group, and needed the sleeves, i got the sleeves with no dice roll.

In this system if you save your points for stuff you really want/need then you will get it if you A zone enough B dont bid on stuff you dont need.

Dude consider this: An illusionst goes to a zone because Nomo can't be there. This is his first time with turgy because Nomo is almost always there. He looses bid on what he needs becasue he onyl has 1 or 2 or whatever points. There is no good system really that you can use straight forward. It's hard to make a good bidding system and Turgy is definately trying to work out kinks and make it better all the time. But no system is perfect so you it's not as black and white as you make it out to be,

Um... i just used Nomo as an example man. Take your pick from people that zone regularly with him when there's only 1 slot in group. Nomo, Shaii, etc. Don't get me wrong i'm not sayig he shouldn't take them or anything and it's good that they zone, but it fills that 1 slot so another another Ill, or Chanter or whatever can't go so they can't rack up Turgy points. Again the world isn't black and white. And i think if you talk to Turgy he'll agree with me that his system isn't perfect, but it is a good start.

Pril

[teflor the ranger]

Even assuming they're dependent, they shouldn't increase by that much and that often. And assuming they're dependent, the chance to win doesn't go up with each trip unless the number of bidders is decreased. The chance to win at all does increase, but I have trouble making a parallel analogy with that. If by chance you mean the number of opportunities to win, then that is correct. The more times you go to zones the more opportunities you have to win at all. However, I'm not sure how you'd play this against other people's chances to win (at all).

If you have a different version, I'd like to see it because I'm really fuzzy on my stats. However, I've run this through a few people and it seems to be okay.

Mitharx, you are still thinking about the individual bid. I am talking about having won an item or winning an item independant of the number of opportunities.

The more opportunities, the increase in probability of winning.

That's all it is. Create more opportunities (go to zones), get more of a probability of winning.

[Mitharx]

Right. They have a higher chance to win an item. So why would a bidding system not be better if people wanted a specific item? That would seem to make bidding systems less of a waste of time.

[teflor the ranger]

Bidding systems suck.

There is one advantage. If you are on the same time as a specific leader is on, and go to all their zones, you will improve your own probability of getting a specific item.

But few people play this game like that.

[Ruxur]

Um... i just used Nomo as an example man. Take your pick from people that zone regularly with him when there's only 1 slot in group. Nomo, Shaii, etc. Don't get me wrong i'm not sayig he shouldn't take them or anything and it's good that they zone, but it fills that 1 slot so another another Ill, or Chanter or whatever can't go so they can't rack up Turgy points. Again the world isn't black and white. And i think if you talk to Turgy he'll agree with me that his system isn't perfect, but it is a good start.

Pril

ohh i got ya. We dont disagree on that at all. The system isnt perfect at all. But it is a very very good system. I was thinking of something like a bonus point or two to first time zoners would help to fix this. Let me know what ya think about that.

[Ambar]

Kossuthize this thread please ....

[kiryan]

there is no system that everyone will agree is "fair"

each system gives or takes an "advantage" to a specific type of player vs other types of players in different systems.

[Lahgen]

Kossuthize this thread please ....

Why?

[Ambar]

cause you are all essentially saying the same thing

[Corth]

How do people use their 'turgy points'? If items obtained in a zone got auctioned off to group members in turgy points that would be real interesting. Give people a big incentive to not just grab whatever crap is in a zone just because you can. You could end up using a month's worth of points, for instance, on a BC item.. which is the way it should be.

Corth

[Kifle]

How do people use their 'turgy points'? If items obtained in a zone got auctioned off to group members in turgy points that would be real interesting. Give people a big incentive to not just grab whatever crap is in a zone just because you can. You could end up using a month's worth of points, for instance, on a BC item.. which is the way it should be.

Corth

Go one furthur -- make it a blind auction! I think this may level the playing field and be a good step in minimizing the amount of favoritism. To ensure no foul play, during the split the leader should announce the item and the amount of points spent on it.

I think you're on to something, Corth.

[Tanji Smanji]

I remember when we did zones for the fun and challenge.

[Ragorn]

My, that WAS a long time ago :D

[moritheil]

there is no system that everyone will agree is "fair"

each system gives or takes an "advantage" to a specific type of player vs other types of players in different systems.

I have yet to hear from anyone that a dicing I did was unfair. I straight dice for bidders, except in cases of rares that someone hauled ass to find, or quests that someone did outside work on. The only complaints come when I forget to list someone when dicing, and then I just redice. Then again, I take people who are just happy to be IN a zone, so your mileage may vary.

That being said, I ran with Turgy's groups for a week or two, and have nothing but praise for his distribution of eq. I never felt that I was marginalized or stinted in terms of bids, despite not having zoned with him previously. His system may have changed since then, in which case, I don't know about it and won't comment.

To address what Ragorn and Tanji noted, I consider eq distribution to be the dessert that follows the "main course" of actually zoning. I personally have enough equipment that, say, a fourth or fifth skullsmasher would not mean a great deal to me. (No, I do not presently have three skullsmashers; don't misunderstand. I've won three over the years.) When I obtain new equipment, I typically do not personally directly benefit from it; rather, friends do, when they log back on and ask me to hand them some gear so they can indulge in a bit of nostalgia. (By the way, who has my starsilver plate and addy crown? :P)

Note, however, that this point of view is markedly different from someone who has no spell save gear, is only 100 hps above naked, and has an AC on par with a gazebo. Such a person most likely desperately craves better gear, because they have not attained proper "zoneable" levels of survivability. It is that crowd that has the most legitimate concerns regarding equipment distribution, as it affects them most directly.

[kiryan]

people who have lost dice on something they really really wanted 20 times in a row feel tha dice system are unfair. they may not express that but they dont think its fair that the guy who has only been once won it when they've been 20x and not won. Fair in their opinoin is equal work rewarded with equal loot, not equal opportunity for loot.

you have nothing but praise for turgs system, however your by self admission not that worried about eq. if your not that eq oriented then why would you have negative things to say about someones system?

Now take a player like larem, who only wants certain high end rare equipment... the kind of equipment turgy points would be used to claim... that person might feel sorely put out if they don't even have an opportunity to bid on the only things of value to them.

in most zones there are usually only a couple things that are really valuable so even though you could bid on a myriad of mid tier equipment your doing the zone for the opportunity to win the tier 1 eq.

----

Auction systems are interesting.. I personally don't like them because they dont cost equipment to value but to ability to outbid... In one zone trip an item might go for 10 points because nobody really wanted it and another it might go for 60 points because two people really really wanted it. Its only fair in the sense that the players paid what they were willing to express how valuable a particular piece of eq is to them. However, you have people who don't bid rationally and end up "overpaying" and with buyers remorse. Auction systems really tend to reward players who "read" people well (bid them up) and do their homework on everyones' points.

In everquest most zone splits I was involved in were based on auctions... most elite equipment went for an amazing amount of points and most 2nd and 3rd tier equipment went for next to nothing. Further complicating the system was equipment that couldnt leave your character and was very class specific so if there was only 1 monk in teh group, he might end up with the best monk item in the game for 1 point because no one else could bid it but a mage item might go for 50 points because there are 25 mages in the raid. Then you have aholes bidding items to "junk" them trying to force the monk to pay a real "price" for it...

[moritheil]

you have nothing but praise for turgs system, however your by self admission not that worried about eq. if your not that eq oriented then why would you have negative things to say about someones system?

I'm glad to see that you understand what I'm saying, and that you took the time to rephrase it in your own words, filtered through your own perspective.

people who have lost dice on something they really really wanted 20 times in a row feel tha dice system are unfair. they may not express that but they dont think its fair that the guy who has only been once won it when they've been 20x and not won. Fair in their opinoin is equal work rewarded with equal loot, not equal opportunity for loot.

You make a lot of assumptions as to the nature of equal work. It is impossible to prove, for example, that one hour of my time on Toril is equal to one hour of yours, or that the same should hold true for any two other people. Is one hour of Lilithelle's time spent soloing Scorps "equal work" with one hour of someone doing exp in DS? Is that "equal work" with a newbie spending one hour learning how to play the game?

Further complicating the issue, some people use potions and charged items in zone. Some people use spell components. Some people play better; some play worse. Some use triggersets; some zone by telnet. Attempting to make something manifestly and perfectly equal must take everything into consideration: the quality of the players, the items and good will they expend on behalf of the group, the players' mental states, the relative worth of their time, and so on. This will only result in the creation of systems far more complicated than those used to approve areas. Even then, those systems are subject to invalidation when any of their assumptions is invalidated - and there are many, many assumptions made.

[Ruxur]

cause you are all essentially saying the same thing

hey heres an idea, play actively agian, and then ill give you your 2 cents back

[Disoputlip]

I have yet to hear from anyone that a dicing I did was unfair. I straight dice for bidders, except in cases of rares that someone hauled ass to find, or quests that someone did outside work on. The only complaints come when I forget to list someone when dicing, and then I just redice. Then again, I take people who are just happy to be IN a zone, so your mileage may vary.

For those non-math geeks then the problem with dicing is ofcourse that if you have 6 x 1 in 6 bids, then whomever win the 1st bid has the biggest chance of winning the most unless they abstrain. If you look at six dices then the chance of hitting one to six is equal, but if you have just rolled five x 1, then the chance of the next dice beeing 1 is still 1/6.

I know, trivial for some, but had to post it.

[Ambar]

cause you are all essentially saying the same thing

hey heres an idea, play actively agian, and then ill give you your 2 cents back

you may not know all my alts ... I'm on every day :) If I wanted 2 cents I wouldnt ask you .. I would probably ask someone with some guild loyalty :)

[kiryan]

mori...

I don't know if were agreeing or disagreeing or what. I don't really have to prove anything, i've seen people that fit each category and if you can't see or appreciate the differing view points on "fair" thats fine. However, be assured that I have personally encountered people who fit each of the different viewpoints.

i have encountered people who believe that "fair" is equal reward for equal effort measured in "time" or "times to zone" (history/handout systems). I've seen people who think "fair" is equal opportunity at any equipment on a per trip basis (straight dice). And I know a couple people who think "fair" is whatever a person deciding how much they are personally willing to pay for an item (auction).

Each view point is perfectly understandable and emphasizes different dynamics. Each system favors a different type of player or eq acquisition style. none are "fair" to each viewpoint.

[Disoputlip]

cause you are all essentially saying the same thing

hey heres an idea, play actively agian, and then ill give you your 2 cents back

you may not know all my alts ... I'm on every day :) If I wanted 2 cents I wouldnt ask you .. I would probably ask someone with some guild loyalty :)

Getting popcorn.