Silent Majority, vote!

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

Are you happy with all the area changes implemented?

Yes
25
57%
No
19
43%
 
Total votes: 44
Dalar
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Silent Majority, vote!

Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:29 pm

Cyric wrote:
As I've said a zillion times before, thanks to the silent majority that's happy with the changes we implement...we feel your love and it far overshadows the vocal minority.

Remember, "We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams". Oh, and Voulez-vous entrer le Wonkatania? See? Now I'm funny too...wow, channeling Wonka and Thorogood at the same time!



Really, are you all happy with the area changes that are implemented?

Edit: Since many people have trouble staying on focus in this thread...
This thread was originally created to show Cyric that the "silent majority" isn't what he thinks it is. After about a day of voting, it's 20-14. This is in fact a majority, but is that the kind of satisfaction rating you would want your MUD to have? There are so many small steps you can make to boost your satisfaction rating significantly, but once again, gods don't listen to the players and the gods don't understand the game play as well as the veterans of this MUD.
Last edited by Dalar on Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:46 pm

Is this asking if we're jubilantly happy, TGIF happy, satisfied-enough-to-be-happy happy, or just-happy-enough-to-not-be-miserable-and-bitter-people-who-never-have-anything-to-do-but-bitch-and-moan-about-how-awful-everything-is happy?

I'm kind of in the "Sure, I can see some things I'd change if I were ever in the position where I wanted to absorb the costs and invest all my off hours into this game, but since I'd rather have a life I'm pretty darned happy with it" range of happiness.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:50 pm

You've made a zone haven't you Ashiwi? There are some things that are easy to fix, such as making !rent items rentable to relieve the headache on some players. Or removing some mobs to make a zone reasonably fun.

To be more specific on my poll, do you think they're doing a good job maintaining a good area balance? I'm not asking about the area gods pushing new zones to the main mud, but are they keeping ALL of the current areas reasonably fun instead of another timesink.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if more than 50% vote because the many people have already quit and won't come back because they don't care.

And yes, if you must know, I am playing again. Why? Partially because I need something to do at work and while I'm playing my priest in WoW, and for some of the people. Not because of the gameplay.
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Postby Shiallia » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:56 pm

Dalar wrote:......, the people who are disgruntled have already quit and won't come back because they don't care.



Count me among these as I am tired of you guys being ungrateful and less than nice about it. "They are the minority, the vast majority are grateful but silent" does not fly in my mind anymore. All of you who bash what you have NO CLUE about (read dartan) should learn to stfu or put out some effort of your own. Jump in there and build if you think you have all the answers. And then when you get bashed as you are bashing them wonder why. Smirk. Ta Toril.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:10 pm

No one is happy with all the changes.

As evidenced by all the complaints seen on the BBS. Everyone has filed at least one grievance.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
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Postby Vandic » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:11 pm

Shiallia wrote:
Dalar wrote:......, the people who are disgruntled have already quit and won't come back because they don't care.


Jump in there and build if you think you have all the answers.


He already has.
Vandic wields a massive mithril axe of gazebo chopping.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:41 pm

Shiallia wrote:
Dalar wrote:......, the people who are disgruntled have already quit and won't come back because they don't care.



Count me among these as I am tired of you guys being ungrateful and less than nice about it. "They are the minority, the vast majority are grateful but silent" does not fly in my mind anymore. All of you who bash what you have NO CLUE about (read dartan) should learn to stfu or put out some effort of your own. Jump in there and build if you think you have all the answers. And then when you get bashed as you are bashing them wonder why. Smirk. Ta Toril.


I think you just lost all credibility there. I know how to make an area and I know the area process just as well as you do. What I never understood was the implementing changes process. We'll use BC as an example. Look at how it was when it was implemented, how it was almost 2 years after it was implemented, then now. Why are some of the bugs still there? Why did it take so long for !rent items (tooth etc.) to become rentable? BC is just one poorly implemented zone.

So let's look at others. Is Hulburg/IC2/Magma worth doing? Oh, and why was Magma upgraded through dragon changes and all the old items upgraded as well? Jotunheim invasion anyone?

I could come up with a huge list of why the areas in this MUD are plain stupid. Why don't I? I have in the past to Miax, nobody listened. I have to Shar/Shev, nobody listened. I've tried being nice first, didn't work. I've tried to get to get people who were sorta in god favor. Didn't work. What works? Having the innovators take the casual players until the casual players get pissed. That's the only way things get changed.

How about this. Talk to the people who are good. Talk to the people who bitch. If you just talk to the people who stroke your ego, well, look at where the MUD is at now. Maybe the people who bitch actually know what they're talking about. I mean, look at how many things have been changed because of them. When will you realize that the area gods just can't play as well as them?
Last edited by Dalar on Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:56 pm

In her defense, you can’t tell what mortals have built what zones by looking at the credits listing (ok, maybe one or two you can), and she wasn’t around at that time to know.

As for Magma/IC2, I made changes to several of the fights months ago and posted in the object changes forum as such. They were hopefully changed for the better and I had asked people to try the zones and give input on how they went. To my knowledge, no one has tried them or if they have, I haven’t been given any input as to if things are too hard/easy/ect. Both zones should still be hard, but not impossible to do.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:01 pm

Marthammor wrote:In her defense, you can’t tell what mortals have built what zones by looking at the credits listing (ok, maybe one or two you can), and she wasn’t around at that time to know.

As for Magma/IC2, I made changes to several of the fights months ago and posted in the object changes forum as such. They were hopefully changed for the better and I had asked people to try the zones and give input on how they went. To my knowledge, no one has tried them or if they have, I haven’t been given any input as to if things are too hard/easy/ect. Both zones should still be hard, but not impossible to do.


I'm sure you did Marthammor, but look at the risk vs reward. I can honestly say I have no clue who your mortal is, so I'll just blindly trust you know what you're doing. Are the rewards worth the risk? IC2 was a nightmare of a zone pre-dragon changes. I think the majority of the innovators have come to the point where changed zones like IC2 won't get a second look if the equipment blows. From the items I have from IC2, I don't think I'll ever go back since they don't come close to fitting in the perfect set of equipment.

And yes, I know who Shiallia is, so I didn't burst out in laughter when I read her post. I'll accept unresearched posts because it's the norm from immortals.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:16 pm

Honestly, as a mortal I've never been to IC2. Sure, I can look at the files and walk through the zone and imagine how a leader would tackle the fights, but nothing short of actually doing the zone will give me the experience I need to evaluate risk vs reward. I fixed the problems that was reported to me as being the most major things wrong with the zone and asked for people, the people who know the zone and know if the eq is worth the risk, to try it and report what they thought and I'd adjust from there. I got nothing.

And please people, stop with the imm bashing? This is not just pointed at you Dartan, but to everyone. Its been picking up more and more lately and several imms are getting sick of it.
If you've got comments about a zone, lets hear em, but saying that this sucks or that sucks just makes us not want to do a damn thing for any of you. You wanna have fun, we wanna have fun making fun things for you. If we work together, just maybe this relationship we all have can be a fun one for everyone.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:19 pm

Dalar wrote:I could come up with a huge list of why the areas in this MUD are plain stupid. Why don't I? I have in the past to Miax, nobody listened. I have to Shar/Shev, nobody listened. I've tried being nice first, didn't work. I've tried to get to get people who were sorta in god favor. Didn't work. What works? Having the innovators take the casual players until the casual players get pissed. That's the only way things get changed.


I followed the same process to try to get Rangers looked at for ten years. About a year ago, maybe longer, I even made the same polls you're making now. From someone who's years ahead of you in the bitching process, let me tell you, this method doesn't work either.

Seriously. Leave and don't come back. It doesn't matter how much you offer to help, how good your suggestions are, or how many polls you make. Doesn't matter how many new or old players you talk to, and it doesn't matter how many people agree with you. It doesn't matter. Surely you've realized this by now.

All you're doing is beating yourself in the head with a baseball bat and complaining that the bat is too hard.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:24 pm

You're right Ragorn, but it's something to do while I'm bored right? And honestly, I'm sorry about the whole WoW thing. I relaly forgot why I didn't like you at the time. It was kinda amusing from my PoV :P If you need help to get into TR I can help.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:21 pm

It's no problem. You didn't like me because you didn't like my review of FFXI, which I've always thought to be very silly :P

I've gotten away from WoW. I got to level 58ish with a couple of 20-30 alts, guilded with Sundara and peeps. Honestly, I just got bored with it. I maxed out Herbalism and Alchemy, and I had my elite mount paid for by level 56. I got to the point where I could lead most of the 50-59 zones (Mara, Temple, DM East, BRD, etc), and then I stopped. Married, full time job, etc. I just can't commit multiple hours to a zone anymore, so I don't really get to participate in MC and other areas where the necessary high-end gear is.

I originally applied because Mamoru and I switched from Sargeras to Tich to group with Folur. When Folur saw my application, he told me I wouldn't get guilded unless I was a druid, at which point I abandoned the idea. Mamoru quit at level 30, and I guilded with the Duris crew. A couple of guild restructures later, and I was in Macabre Legacy with Foofie and her cohorts.

I'm playing City of Heroes and Guild Wars now, both games where I can get in, play for an hour or two, and log off and still have fun doing it.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Corth » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:34 pm

Shev is displeased!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:36 pm

Ragorn wrote:It's no problem. You didn't like me because you didn't like my review of FFXI, which I've always thought to be very silly :P

I've gotten away from WoW. I got to level 58ish with a couple of 20-30 alts, guilded with Sundara and peeps. Honestly, I just got bored with it. I maxed out Herbalism and Alchemy, and I had my elite mount paid for by level 56. I got to the point where I could lead most of the 50-59 zones (Mara, Temple, DM East, BRD, etc), and then I stopped. Married, full time job, etc. I just can't commit multiple hours to a zone anymore, so I don't really get to participate in MC and other areas where the necessary high-end gear is.

I originally applied because Mamoru and I switched from Sargeras to Tich to group with Folur. When Folur saw my application, he told me I wouldn't get guilded unless I was a druid, at which point I abandoned the idea. Mamoru quit at level 30, and I guilded with the Duris crew. A couple of guild restructures later, and I was in Macabre Legacy with Foofie and her cohorts.

I'm playing City of Heroes and Guild Wars now, both games where I can get in, play for an hour or two, and log off and still have fun doing it.


No, I think I didn't like you because of your BBS rantings. Oh the irony.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:14 am

I said it in my tiamat thread... If there is nothing we CAN do then all we WILL do is try to be heard (read bitch).

----

Think of most of the players like this.

Just as concerned or MORE concerned about the game and wanting to make things better except unwilling to formalize a relationship (as an imm) and or put up/play along with the politics.

Certainly there are people amongst the mortals who know a hell of a lot more about the game and how it actually works, have much better ideas on how to "fix" certain aspects, but because they lack other attributes like team spirit and common courtesy would never be successful as an immortal.

You guys should be paying at least as much attention to what the skilled players of this mud are saying here on the forums than what other gods or socialable players think.

How does beta testing work? People play the game and the Developers listen to the feedback and usually make changes. They don't sit back and talk amongst themselves about what they are noticing.

---

and on the positive side, I'm glad Marthammor has seemingly been able to finally step into the role that dugmaren left. I love seeing the changes and work you've done even if I think several of them were absolutely freaking retarded there are some positive ones. At least something is changing and hopefully over time things will improve.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:39 am

Ashiwi wrote:Is this asking if we're jubilantly happy, TGIF happy, satisfied-enough-to-be-happy happy, or just-happy-enough-to-not-be-miserable-and-bitter-people-who-never-have-anything-to-do-but-bitch-and-moan-about-how-awful-everything-is happy?

I'm kind of in the "Sure, I can see some things I'd change if I were ever in the position where I wanted to absorb the costs and invest all my off hours into this game, but since I'd rather have a life I'm pretty darned happy with it" range of happiness.


Hehe, you have about as many different ideas for happiness that I have for misery. :)
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Postby Lathander » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:22 am

Well, the “not being nice” thing we seem to have down pretty well. That said, putting up a poll or being mean is not going to accomplish much. My “a-hole” skill has got to be at master by now, but that’s not how you are going to affect change. Change takes time, sometimes a lot more time than some would think it should. In addition, not all changes are a short term positive to players. Sometimes changes are needed to balance things. Hell, I remember as a player back in the day when a lot of the haste gear lost haste. It sucked, but long term it was needed. In addition, and I said this also on Homeland, all of the staff including myself are human. (We are not really gods!) We do the best we possibly can and sometimes things do not play out as were intended. You can’t go wild and just lose it when that happens. You take some time, figure out what happened, and see about fixing it.

As to folks quitting and not coming back, I can tell you from experience, everyone comes back eventually. Toril is a fantastic game and even more than a game for a lot of us. Toril is our society and our home. It is that place that you always know will be there for you. I think Ashiwi really hit it on the head. There’s always something you would do different if you could, but the reality is you can’t. Hell, I’m sure every staff member would have subtle differences on how we would each do something, but we are a team and our work is a collaborative effort.

Lastly, someone said there are so many things that need to be done/changed/upgraded/downgraded/updated/etc. I don’t know about you all, but it is impossible to do everything at once. So we look at where we can make a difference like modifying some of the zones Marth mentioned and new and hopefully fun changes like the new Jot Invasion.

As Marth said, let’s calm down and breathe some. Rags, I have to disagree with you on the issue of the futility of everything. Player feedback is always important, but honey gets you a hell of a lot farther than vinegar. Give things a break with the vitriol.

Lath

"There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Postby Vigis » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:40 am

Since Lathander replied, I figured I would ask a question.

In a different thread (another bitch). Somebody mentioned that the coders had real lives :shock: I just can't understand somebody having a life, damn it, I play games every chance I get, I have been fired from 14 jobs for playing games from work, and 4 weeks ago I collapsed from heart failure after only 56 hour of straight gaming (I got over the hill I guess) Okay, now I'll stop being sarcastic.

Anybody with a brain should realize that even the people who run this game for us (out of their own pockets and the measly donations we give them) have a real life. We as players should understand that.

My question pertains to an offer made by a newbie named Alabas. He stated that he had 10+ years of coding experience (forgive me if I am supplying false information since I refuse to do my research using the Toril BBS) and had worked for Sony.

Do offers like his get consideration? I would think that with his/her overall experience and fresh views of this game, that he/she might be able to add to the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think the staff here does a wonderful job. But, are we allowing people with new ideas and minimal experience with the game any chance of helping it or does somebody like Alabas not have a chance?

I don't know Alabas, I've helped him in-game over NHC but never had any interaction. Soj/Toril was always the most innovative and well-balanced mud, so would letting people who have experience and ideas help us?
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:51 am

As to folks quitting and not coming back, I can tell you from experience, everyone comes back eventually.


If everyone came back eventually, you wouldn't have new players posting threads complaining that there's nobody to group with and that high level alts were mean to them. You wouldn't need to put kyndig.com in your sigs in order to drum up interest in the game. You wouldn't have evils crying in their soup over their playerbase.

Rags, I have to disagree with you on the issue of the futility of everything. Player feedback is always important, but honey gets you a hell of a lot farther than vinegar. Give things a break with the vitriol.


Emphatically disagree. If either honey or vinegar got anyone anywhere, Rangers wouldn't suck my balls now, ten years after I started playing one.

I originally wrote about three pages of mixed honey and vinegar about it, but I'm going to delete them because it doesn't really matter what I say -- nothing will change.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Corth » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:09 am

the honey gets you further than vinegar argument can be loosly translated to say "We do stuff for those who kiss our ass"
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:59 am

CAUTION: Super Happy Fun Ball may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Sarell » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:22 am

I like the mud, am having a great time with the guild in particular, the code sphere seems to be going great atm from my perspective! Even timed the crash to a few seconds after bel died last run! *hi5*

The area sphere is still suffering from the disaster that was gearchanges/balancing but have put in some really cool zones, some shockers, and some changes to old zones.

The admin sphere ... beats me what they do to be honest. Twink stuff with their alts and get stroppy when we have an extra person sitting from my perception.

I think the mud needs more stock smiting areas like Izans, rather than gimicky stuff reliant on procs, except without havnig to try and be the top end gear in every slot. Do new zones still have to use the gear calc? I stopped flat trying to make a zone when I was told I would ahve to go back and gearcalc everything, seemed pointless to me to use something that didn't work for days on end if I was truly to calc each fight.

Marthammor, magma has not been finished since you posted the thread about it. It has only been finished once since dragon changes, the time that bought on that thread. Mind you, that was to prove someone wrong rather than gear, that it could be done!
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53 pm

Lathander wrote:Well, the “not being nice” thing we seem to have down pretty well. That said, putting up a poll or being mean is not going to accomplish much. My “a-hole” skill has got to be at master by now, but that’s not how you are going to affect change. Change takes time, sometimes a lot more time than some would think it should. In addition, not all changes are a short term positive to players. Sometimes changes are needed to balance things. Hell, I remember as a player back in the day when a lot of the haste gear lost haste. It sucked, but long term it was needed. In addition, and I said this also on Homeland, all of the staff including myself are human. (We are not really gods!) We do the best we possibly can and sometimes things do not play out as were intended. You can’t go wild and just lose it when that happens. You take some time, figure out what happened, and see about fixing it.

As to folks quitting and not coming back, I can tell you from experience, everyone comes back eventually. Toril is a fantastic game and even more than a game for a lot of us. Toril is our society and our home. It is that place that you always know will be there for you. I think Ashiwi really hit it on the head. There’s always something you would do different if you could, but the reality is you can’t. Hell, I’m sure every staff member would have subtle differences on how we would each do something, but we are a team and our work is a collaborative effort.

Lastly, someone said there are so many things that need to be done/changed/upgraded/downgraded/updated/etc. I don’t know about you all, but it is impossible to do everything at once. So we look at where we can make a difference like modifying some of the zones Marth mentioned and new and hopefully fun changes like the new Jot Invasion.

As Marth said, let’s calm down and breathe some. Rags, I have to disagree with you on the issue of the futility of everything. Player feedback is always important, but honey gets you a hell of a lot farther than vinegar. Give things a break with the vitriol.

Lath

"There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.


How about modifying zones that aren't done because they suck? However many days you spent on redoing Jotunheim invasion, you can consider those days wasted. Not only did you do almost transparent changes to a rareload zone, you screwed over anyone who did it in the past by making the equipment obsolete. Old Jot invasion required one rogue running to certain spots and killing the bosses. Now, it's the EXACT SAME THING, just have to do Thrym/Mage camps and kill callers. Ambush rooms? Just walk around them. The only thing the change did was make Jot invasion look more like Dugmaren's regular Muspelheim. How about updating Hulburg or adding something to UM2 or SOMETHING meaningful to the 60 hour boot cycle we are going on.

Really, the honey argument and the gods have lives argument are old. If skilled players are right, they are right. Ragorn's post is dead on. He, myself, and others have tried the honey method. Same deal, imms think they know everything. It's really frustrating when additions go in AFTER they get denied a year before. Who was right on those occasions? If the gods have lives, get gods who play and have the time. You can't have Cyric being a top anethesiologist and Shevarash leaving for months at a time. Appoint people who actually have direction for this MUD. Miax did it when he turned into a Sysop. Pestlience of Everwar gave up his MUD to the most skilled players who took up the challenge and that MUD will be the best it will ever have been.

Lathandar, you of all people should know what it's like being a reasonably good player, especially since what you have to compete against up there (you have maybe one person, Shar). It's extremely frustrating watching imms complain about time management when we see changes in a neglectant time order. You guys changed a zone that was fine when you could have been doing something else. Honestly, after your statement, I can say I've given up hope on any change on this MUD now. You're one of them now. I can say the same for Talona too.

And if none of you hasn't realized this yet, this thread was made because of Cyric's original response to Gormal in the Jot invasion thread. There is no "silent majority" enjoying the MUD. The "silent majority" dislikes the direction (60 pbase now, was around 80 last year at prime) and the "minority" likes it. Cyric, if you actually played or the imms snooped more than just me, you'll realize I'm not the only one who knows this.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:03 pm

What I would like to see is a volunteer base of players that truly know the game's mechanics and just how twinkable eq is, then have this group of players (lilithelle, dartan, sarell, and the others who lead a lot) have a group opinion of what stats should be set at. Then give proposal to da boss. Would totally save people getting upset and frustrated. IF the ones who change zone eq aren't familiar with just how difficult/easy something is to bypass, this option should work out great. It is silly how powerful TTF ring is, for example, then you have something like eldritch that relatively sucks, yet is harder to score.
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:25 pm

Thilindel wrote:What I would like to see is a volunteer base of players that truly know the game's mechanics and just how twinkable eq is, then have this group of players (lilithelle, dartan, sarell, and the others who lead a lot) have a group opinion of what stats should be set at. Then give proposal to da boss. Would totally save people getting upset and frustrated. IF the ones who change zone eq aren't familiar with just how difficult/easy something is to bypass, this option should work out great. It is silly how powerful TTF ring is, for example, then you have something like eldritch that relatively sucks, yet is harder to score.


Thus begins the cries of favoritism, god-pets, yadda yadda.
Fairly cool idea Thil, but... ya can't please alll the people. Maybe it'd work, but I have some doubts.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:44 pm

The trouble is that most are followers, very few are leaders. I only want to follow someone. It's not my personality to lead..wish it were. As such I'm confident that lilithelle, turgy, etc. can put a fair value on the difficulty vs. rewards. That's what I was hoping there would be focus on. Lilithelle has brought up so many things that made me go 'hmmm!' Like why do daggers really hurt dragons at all :P That's kinda silly too in itself. Awhile back this baldur's gate II game has (I don't play real D&D so don't know) rogues using longswords, katanas, etc. Why can't they here? Some logic and true gameplay consideration would help accross the board.

Reminds me of econ. Everybody wants a raise. Raise given. Now employers need more money to make the income buffer they used to receive. There goes the price of goods. Now employees need more money etc. EQ reminds me of this. Otherwise it's going to be the trend to make Vault, citadel, etc done just to finish new quests put in. That seems to be the band-aid trend is making a quest to use older eq.

But regardless, I never hesitate to follow Lilithelle and well, I've been in Dartan's, Sarell's..etc. groups They definitely know what the heck they're doing. I trust they could make a group decision on what eq should be per zone.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:11 pm

Ragorn wrote:Now that I've had some time to think about the honey vs. vinegar thing, I give you my offering.

Issue: Rangers are a broken class that need fixing.

Honey: Dear Gods of Toril,

I know you guys are busy, and we all appreciate the work you do on Toril. You guys have squashed a lot of bugs and implemented some really neat features that make the game a better place. I just have a request.

Please give Rangers some attention.

It's been almost ten years since I started playing a Ranger on Toril 1. I've watched new classes (Invoker, Enchanter, Illusionist, Lich, Dire Raider) and races (Duergar, Drow, Illithid, Orc) come in, and old classes (Conjurer, Necromancer, Thief, Assassin) get worked over. I've seen a hundred new zones come in. The MUD is an ever-changing place.

However, it is the consensus among many players that Rangers lack a clear niche within the class hierarchy of the game, and have for many years now. Numerous suggestions have been offered thusfar, and several brilliant plans have been presented to the gods for bringing Rangers up to par with the rest of the classes. Please give this unloved class some attention. Many of your players have been dedicated to the class for years, and they would be ever grateful if their class were made as fun and enjoyable as others in the game.

I would happily volunteer my time and effort in developing and/or testing new Ranger skills and features that would help bring the class in line with its peers. Feel free to email or PM me, and I'll donate my time to helping out.

Vinegar: innate beat_dead_horse

I started playing a Ranger when I was in high school, almost ten years ago. Let's be honest here. Rangers sucked then, and they suck now. I've watched countless insightful Ranger threads come up, generate a hundred responses, and fall off the forum without so much as a single god reply. There are been so many Ranger threads on this BBS that they've become a running joke. Do any of the gods actually open and read Ranger threads anymore, for any reason other than morbid curiosity? Or do you know, just like all of the players do, that Rangers are fucking terrible?

I've had more gods than I can count tell me personally that Rangers were coming up for fixes. I've had four Forgers and two MUD owners tell me that Ranger changes were coming anywhere from "soon" to "imminent" to "on the horizon." Well? What's the holdup? My kids are going to be zoning before we ever see the "fixes" that have been promised to us for years.

How many of you would bring three Invokers to a zone if given the chance? How many of you have ever brought three Rangers to a zone? How many have done so on purpose? How many have done so, without all 3 Rangers being friends or guild members? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Why haven't Rangers been fixed yet?

Conclusion: Read whichever approach you prefer, whichever one works better. I've tried both approaches constantly for going on ten years now, and neither one has produced any noticeable result so far. Please, tell me the words I would need to speak in order to affect some serious Ranger changes in this game. I've been waiting nearly five years for SOMEONE to fix the class so I could come back and enjoy the game. Just tell me what I have to do.

You could be the god of your class Ragorn, but that honey response will get you 0 PMs or e-mails.
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:21 pm

Ragorn -
If vinegar looked like that, there'd be far fewer pissed off gods, IMO.

You could make a pretty tasty salad dressing with vinegar of that quality.

Dammit, now I'm hungry.

[edit - hey, no fair deleting! :P]
Last edited by Nekelet on Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kwirl » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:29 pm

Vigis wrote:Since Lathander replied, I figured I would ask a question.

In a different thread (another bitch). Somebody mentioned that the coders had real lives :shock: I just can't understand somebody having a life, damn it, I play games every chance I get, I have been fired from 14 jobs for playing games from work, and 4 weeks ago I collapsed from heart failure after only 56 hour of straight gaming (I got over the hill I guess) Okay, now I'll stop being sarcastic.

Anybody with a brain should realize that even the people who run this game for us (out of their own pockets and the measly donations we give them) have a real life. We as players should understand that.

My question pertains to an offer made by a newbie named Alabas. He stated that he had 10+ years of coding experience (forgive me if I am supplying false information since I refuse to do my research using the Toril BBS) and had worked for Sony.

Do offers like his get consideration? I would think that with his/her overall experience and fresh views of this game, that he/she might be able to add to the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think the staff here does a wonderful job. But, are we allowing people with new ideas and minimal experience with the game any chance of helping it or does somebody like Alabas not have a chance?

I don't know Alabas, I've helped him in-game over NHC but never had any interaction. Soj/Toril was always the most innovative and well-balanced mud, so would letting people who have experience and ideas help us?



short answer: no
long answer: no, it requires a lengthy process of 'proving yourself' by enduring endless hours of playing, or else being married to someone who has seems to work. then, your own ideas are meaningless because you are bottom of totem pole. :P
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:21 pm

I keep making posts and deleting them. I want to raise a point without pissing anybody off. I am not the Ragorn I used to be.

[edit: Well, there's my other post up there, fully quoted. Take your pick.]

I don't believe that there is a tactic of presentation which reliably works when attempting to communicate with the gods of Toril. I have tried the honey approach on a score of different topics. I've been posting on this forum since its inception, I posted on The Turning Point, and I posted on the Yahoo Group before that. You can see, I'm rounding on 1900 posts on this board alone. I can honestly say I've spent a million words talking about Toril.

I've offered my time and effort and my services as a developer for new content. I alpha tested Sojourn 3, focusing on Ranger skills and spells in particular. Look, I know Rangers are a dead horse, but only because we've been petitioning for so many years without seeing effective solutions. Ranger threads have become a running joke on the forum, because the PROBLEM is a running joke. We can't even present thoughtful solutions anymore, because everyone on the forum is so tired of hearing them that nobody even listens anymore. And yet, Rangers have never been fixed.

It's not just Rangers I'm interested in. I've made several well-received threads about attracting and retaining newbies. I presented a very long list of problems and solutions pertaining to the newbie game. The thread generated over a hundred responses, and not one of them was from a god or anyone in charge. I've linked the thread a couple times, and it's been resurrected at least twice. No gods have ever commented on it, either on the forum or to me personally.

So please, we appreciate the tips about how to get the gods to listen, but it would be even more appreciated if you would respond from time to time. Yes, the occasional forum post in response to a well thought-out thread is nice (and should be more frequent). An hour of coding time to fix an age-old bug or add a trivial new feature is better.

If there's a method that players can use to be consistantly heard and listened to, I haven't found it yet. I've posted, I've emailed, I've mudmailed, I've volunteered. I've been vague, I've been specific, I've reported problems, I've offered solutions. I have long since given up the idea that my voice carries any weight, either as part of a majority or as the presenter of a good idea.

If honey worked, and some of my issues with Rangers had ever been addressed, I never would have stopped playing. I stopped 4 years ago because of the relative uselessness of my favorite class. So far, I haven't seen any real attempt at a solution.

Honey works better than vinegar, but actions speak louder than words.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby digov » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:27 pm

Dalar,

I thought long an hard of a nice way to say this. In truth I can't really come up with one. So what the hell.

From one player to another. If you don't like it? Leave. Nobody forces you to sit down in front of your computer everyday and login. Nobody forces you to go through the zones you 'hate'. Nobody forces you to have anything to do with the game.

The ungreatful attitude toward people who freely give their time and energy to creating a world for you to play in...Its old and its tired.

Its not a perfect game by any stretch. But its free and its fun. So, grow up and show some gratitude. If you can't do that, then run along and spare the rest of us your tired old act.

-Digov
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:29 pm

digov wrote:Dalar,

I thought long an hard of a nice way to say this. In truth I can't really come up with one. So what the hell.

From one player to another. If you don't like it? Leave. Nobody forces you to sit down in front of your computer everyday and login. Nobody forces you to go through the zones you 'hate'. Nobody forces you to have anything to do with the game.

The ungreatful attitude toward people who freely give their time and energy to creating a world for you to play in...Its old and its tired.

Its not a perfect game by any stretch. But its free and its fun. So, grow up and show some gratitude. If you can't do that, then run along and spare the rest of us your tired old act.

-Digov


Cool, Iyatchu did this once too. That was funny then and it's funny now
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:34 pm

digov wrote:Dalar,

I thought long an hard of a nice way to say this. In truth I can't really come up with one. So what the hell.


Honey works better than vinegar, man.

HaHA! I crack myself up.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby digov » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:38 pm

Cool, Iyatchu did this once too. That was funny then and it's funny now


Yes, Yes I agree. I think its absolutely hysterical that you claim to know EVERYTHING about TorilMUD and you did not even know that I stepped down six months ago. Nice work!

Keep trying though. If you need tips on what to do next, see my earlier post. kthxbye.

-Digov
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:53 pm

digov wrote:
Cool, Iyatchu did this once too. That was funny then and it's funny now


Yes, Yes I agree. I think its absolutely hysterical that you claim to know EVERYTHING about TorilMUD and you did not even know that I stepped down six months ago. Nice work!

-Digov

I know almost everything relative to the game TorilMUD. I claimed to know at the time I was active almost everything. Its players and who is and isn't around anymore is not my specialty, but I do know alot about that too.

Also, I believe Iyatchu did make a post that was misinformed and retarded just like yours when he stepped down too. He stepped down alot. I forget since he told me after he came back one of those times.
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Postby digov » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:11 pm

I know almost everything relative to the game TorilMUD. I claimed to know at the time I was active almost everything. Its players and who is and isn't around anymore is not my specialty, but I do know alot about that too.

Also, I believe Iyatchu did make a post that was misinformed and retarded just like yours when he stepped down too. He stepped down alot. I forget since he told me after he came back one of those times.


I figured i'd keep my posts at the same level as yours. I wouldn't want you to feel more insignifcant than you normally do. You know what they say about not talking over the heads of your target audience.....

What you need to do is get over yourself dude. In a big way. Once again, if you don't like it. Leave. Nobody is forcing you to stick around. And to be honest with you, its people like you that ruin the game for the rest of us by bitching constantly. Nobody wants to hear it.

This game is what it is. Its been fun for alot of people for alot of years. Over the years players have come and players have gone. Its never been the perfect for everyone, thats not going to change no matter what you throw at the problem.

You'll never understand that or accept it because if you did, you'd have no way to rationalize bitching. And if you couldn't bitch, you wouldn't be able to puff our your chest and feel good about yourself.

So let me put this in terms you might understand:

Stop Bitching.
Learn to Cope.
Accept that the world according to Dalar, does not exist.

And most importantly, spare the rest of us your feeble attempts at trying to make yourself feel good by criticizing and degrading other people and their hardwork.

If you can't do that, run along.

-Digov


P.S. I do I hope I have put this in terms you can understand.
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Postby digov » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:22 pm

Forgot to include above, as an illustration of the traits I was discussing in your particular case.

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:23 pm

Honey: It would be very helpful if you did not turn this thread into a flamewar.

Vinegar: Shut the fuck up please. Some people are being serious in here.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Corth » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:11 pm

I really would like to see some new blood among the immorts. Frankly, Shev, Shar and Cyric have not followed through on promises made when they took over from Miax. I get the feeling that none of the forgers are particularly engaged in the mud right now. I can't understand why the mud isn't handed to a more active god, or even to a player who is willing to take on the responsibility and do a good job.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:28 pm

Thank you sir, may I have another?
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Postby Corth » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:29 pm

heheh :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:45 pm

digov wrote:
The ungreatful attitude toward people who freely give their time and energy to creating a world for you to play in...Its old and its tired.


Unfortunately, I think part of the point that the imms *aren't* giving their time and energy because they 'have lives.'

Now, maybe Dalar doesn't have the answers. And far be it from me to suggest a vote of no confidence against the Forgers. But really, is what we have now *working*?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Lilira » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:48 pm

Oooo so the nice new little bits of coding going in have been nothing??

The RP Sphere stuff is nothing???

Hmm. Gee. Yeah.. noone has been doing anything.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:48 pm

Shevarash wrote:Thank you sir, may I have another?


*spank*! *spank spank* That will teach you to have played a ranger, sir Shev! :P
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:51 pm

Lilira wrote:Oooo so the nice new little bits of coding going in have been nothing??

The RP Sphere stuff is nothing???

Hmm. Gee. Yeah.. noone has been doing anything.


Read the initial post carefully. It says nothing about the RP sphere or coding. It specifically asks about the areas sphere.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:55 pm

Sorry Dalar.. wasn't aiming that at you. Shoulda quoted.

Lahgen wrote "Unfortunately, I think part of the point that the imms *aren't* giving their time and energy because they 'have lives."

This is what I was responding to.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:58 pm

Well I've written out severy posts and they've all been pretty intense because this topic stirs me so.

But instead of posting them, I think I'll just say:

I'm not happy now, and haven't been for some time, with the current and ongoing behavior of the current staff of Torilmud. I stopped playing because of one primary reason, a complete lack of confidence in the current administration. All spheres. I will continue to let my inactivity, lack of support for the MUD, and lack of log time be my silent protest against the direction and behavior presented by the current staff.

Perhaps others will consider to take up an similar stance. Silence can be a polite and powerful message to those in dire need of hearing it.

I would also like to point out, that yes, Hell has Frozen over and I do find myself agreeing with someone in these forums I detest greatly, and the staff should take serious note of that, but I will not publically back his words because I do not agree with his tact in presenting them. For I believe it to be ultimately detrimental.

Silence is golden. And in that endeavor, I'll play again "Soon..."
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:07 pm

...

Seriously, when I saw Llaaldara as last poster in this thread, I rolled my eyes waiting for another pointless Digov flame. In the past, Llaaldara has been one of my fangirls ready to snap at me in any thread. I appreciate the post.
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Postby digov » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:11 pm

Dalar, I've got a great idea, why don't you join Llaaldara in her silent protest?

Buwahaha. I kill me.

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