Fade to black

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

How many imm's are going to fade away because of the BS?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:23 pm

Too many.
7
37%
Way too many
12
63%
 
Total votes: 19
Nekelet
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Fade to black

Postby Nekelet » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:23 pm

*sigh* knee jerk reaction after drafting, then killing a response to one of the bitch fests.

Seriously, isn't it obvious yet that you don't have to be a dick to show that you're unhappy about something?
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Re: Fade to black

Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:21 pm

Nekelet wrote:*sigh* knee jerk reaction after drafting, then killing a response to one of the bitch fests.

Seriously, isn't it obvious yet that you don't have to be a dick to show that you're unhappy about something?

Isn't it obvious that being level-headed doesn't work either?
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:37 pm

In my opinion, no it isn't. Not at all.

Granted, there are long standing issues that need to be resolved. Time and money. (or negating money, time and motivation) Changes are being made.

What IS obvious is that the very people who will be doing the work, are losing the motivation. Driving the workers away won't speed up anything. You mentioned some recent Jot changes being a huge waste of time. Which is worse, that waste (if it was such) or the waste of sifting through and drafting progressively more disgrungtled responses to the slamfests, followed by at least one fuqqit, I quit?

</dead ranger.. err horse beating>
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:25 pm

In all honesty, if you don't have a thick skin and care about what idiots say, you probably shouldn't be an imm here (lest you love wasting time).
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:45 pm

Nekelet wrote:</dead ranger.. err horse beating>


How many level-headed posts must we make on this topic alone, given ten years in which to do so, just to see some kind of action being taken?

Wouldn't you get frustrated if you knocked on a door for ten years and nobody ever answered? I don't know about you, but I'd find another door.
- Ragorn
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Postby Corth » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:19 pm

Not enough.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Botef » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:28 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Nekelet wrote:</dead ranger.. err horse beating>


How many level-headed posts must we make on this topic alone, given ten years in which to do so, just to see some kind of action being taken?

Wouldn't you get frustrated if you knocked on a door for ten years and nobody ever answered? I don't know about you, but I'd find another door.


The current forgers honestly can't be expected to hold the bag for 10 years of something not getting done...They haven't been in a position to make drastic changes for the last 10 years so placing that kind of heavy blame on them is unfair, just the same as newer immortals can't change things without the approval of older ones. Lets stop with the "you've had 10 years to fix this" plug and be realisitic here.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:37 pm

OK, let's just go straight to all the things said that would be done when Miax handed the MUD over to Shevarash. Start your engines folks!
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:12 pm

Botef wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Nekelet wrote:</dead ranger.. err horse beating>


How many level-headed posts must we make on this topic alone, given ten years in which to do so, just to see some kind of action being taken?

Wouldn't you get frustrated if you knocked on a door for ten years and nobody ever answered? I don't know about you, but I'd find another door.


The current forgers honestly can't be expected to hold the bag for 10 years of something not getting done...They haven't been in a position to make drastic changes for the last 10 years so placing that kind of heavy blame on them is unfair, just the same as newer immortals can't change things without the approval of older ones. Lets stop with the "you've had 10 years to fix this" plug and be realisitic here.


Nor is shifting the blame.

Hey, I know I adopted this kid, but I didn't give birth to him. I only became his parent when he was 8. You can't blame me that he's a brat beacuse I had nothing to do with him for the first 8 years. He's 11 now, so you can only blame me for him being a brat for the last 3 while I was subsequently awol in East Bumblefuc.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:14 am

Corth wrote:Not enough.


Considering the topic of the poll, I think this response sums it all up fairly well, whether it was Corth's intent or not. There are factions who will not be satisfied until the few that give a damn enough to contribute finally get fed up enough to throw in the towel and close the game down once and for all. If they can't force others to see and enjoy it their way, then they'll bitch until nobody can enjoy it.

Perhaps there should be a poll listing possible responses from the sour grapes factions once they finally succeed in ruining it for everybody...

1. It sucked so badly it was a mercy killing. Even the biggest idiots (i.e. anybody but the speaker) should be able to recognize that.

2. It wasn't because we kept bitching; it was because they were too sensitive to take it. Pusses.

3. Shutting it down is just their way of admitting they're totally incompetent. See, I was right all along.

4. That just shows how much everybody disliked it. If they'd really given a damn, they wouldn't have given up.

5. I spent a long time trying to be nice, but through their heinous neglect they forced me to be the dick I am today. It's all their fault.

6. Nobody else there was as brilliant/insightful/skilled/etc as I am at sitting like a lump in front of a computer, so without my input it would have died years before it did, anyway... You should thank me!

7. Toril who? Hold on, these idiots on WoW are too sensitive and incompetent to give a damn. If they didn't have my constructive criticism and superior skills to help them out, they wouldn't be the great game they are today.

8. You mean I'm important enough that people really do pay attention to me??? At last my life has validation!


I understand that people who care about the game and the way it used to be will want to bring back what they saw as the good times. When, however, you get to the point where you'd rather ruin the game for everybody than play nicely when the rules change, it's time to take a break from the playground.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I've always felt like playing this game is like being invited over to play at somebody else's house. They're providing everything for me to be able to come in and play... They don't lock me in, they don't tie me up, and they don't blackmail me in order to keep me there, instead they've invested a lot of their own time and resources into making sure their home is open to me. I've had great experiences in their home, for the most part, and I'd like to keep coming back. With that in mind, I'm not going to call my hosts "dicks" and "idiots" every time they don't play the exact way I want them to. I'm sure as hell not going to tell them how much I wish they'd get lost because having anybody else in their house would be better than having them there. Is there anybody here who would keep their home open to a guest like that willingly?
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Postby Pril » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:37 am

Ashiwi wrote:I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I've always felt like playing this game is like being invited over to play at somebody else's house. .. they don't tie me up...


If yer lucky they do :p
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Postby Corth » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:41 am

Ashiwi:

It doesn't matter much to me what happens on this mud, personally, because I don't really play. I'm not sure exactly why I still hang around here. Maybe its because I've spent so much time here that I can't help but be interested, even if my role in the community will not be more than just a commentator. I think maybe Ragorn is in that same boat.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who has been around the block a time or two. My opinion is that the mud would be much better off with a change of leadership. It happens all the time. People get tired of what they're doing.. and they move on. Thats basically why I stopped playing. This does not mean I want to see the mud 'mercifully killed'. Its unfair to insinuate that this is what people are advocating, and actually, its quite beneath you to do so.

We have three forgers that seem completely unengaged in the mud. Shevarash is gone for months at a time. His latest greatest coding project were dragon changes... and how well did those turn out? Cyric has never addressed the disaster resulting from the poorly executed EQ changes. He posts once or twice a month.. and I always get the impression when reading his posts that he hasn't read anyone elses. And Shar. Well I like Shar a lot. I'm not sure what she does.. but I do like her.

Now having said all that, how exactly could the mud get hurt in any way if a few motivated people were to replace them? I am sure that there are plenty of people willing to do it. To volunteer their time.. etc etc. So why not give someone else a chance and see how it works out?

My feeling is that at least in the case of Shev and Cyric, they're kind of in the same position that Miax was a few years ago. They've been doing it so long that they don't know how to let go. But on the other hand, I think that they probably do want to let go.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:42 am

Umm.. Amen Sista!

*wink*
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Postby Vigis » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:42 am

To add onto what Ashiwi is saying, we could always go back to the old rules of the house (they go kind of like the rules of my house IRL):

Disrespect me in my house, you'll find your ass out the door. Kid with me, joke with me, insult me in jest and you are all good. Show me serious disrespect like many many people are doing on here as of late and you either get shown the door or thrown out of it.

Mystra used to play like that back in the good 'ol days.... sure you can say that we had more players and that the imms here would NEVER EVER site ban you because then they would surely add to the death of this "Already dying MUD".... I disagree with that. I think we would actually get some more new blood on here because then you would not get curious potential newbies taking a look at our BBS and see the bitching/whining/insulting loud mouths telling them that this game sucks.

In short: Feel free to voice your opinions, but try to show some respect and tact or get the hell outta the house.

How would you let somebody treat you in your own house? Oh hey, do you mind if I take a crap on your couch while I'm here? Oh, you do? Sorry already done and I used your throw pillow to wipe. Now, go get me a beer damn it, I'm your guest.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:20 am

Shev is tangled up in RL. Vhaeraun has fallen down the same put. Eilistraaee codes some, but she's more of a quest god if I'm not mistaken.

Really, there's not much that the current staff can do to make things better until they get the time to do so. And no amount of complaints will change that.


When you have to constantly rely on a game to change for it to be fun for you again, I think it's time you find another game.....or a better hobby.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:28 am

we can keep the same forgers, but they need to admit there is a problem before anything can be done.

some simple delegation could go a long long ways as would a simple request for help in specific areas. then we could stop blaming them for things and blame the people who volunteered but pussed out.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:38 am

kiryan wrote:we can keep the same forgers, but they need to admit there is a problem before anything can be done.

some simple delegation could go a long long ways as would a simple request for help in specific areas. then we could stop blaming them for things and blame the people who volunteered but pussed out.


Right, so lets force the current adminstration to admit they are doing things all wrong, and they are seeking volunteers to help them out.

So we also need to force them to give up the RL time to make sure these "volunteers" are doing everything right, to appoint the volunteers in the correct positions, etc.

The staff is only going to do what the staff wants and believes to be correct, four or five people threatening and bitching will not change that.

All this crap about people leaving, do you think the current administration doesn't KNOW people are quitting? They do.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:17 am

buttered popcorn please

you all need to take a step back and .. regroup

stop playing if you are unhappy. let those who still want to, play

go back to your graphical games with the multitude of paid staff

you are stressing yourselves out by playing a game you no longer enjoy

move on!

its kind of like watching a crack addict who really wants to stop but cant .. hysterical even
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Postby Xolan » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:01 am

FULLY EDITED!

Xolan, for all the plethera favors the staff of this mud (and the previous mud) have done for you, you should know better. Grow up or get out. You are way beyond out of line here. I *will* take serious action against you if you should make this type of post again.

-Shar

HALF EDITED!

Shar, I do not think it is fair you let other people speak their minds yet delete/edit my post when I do the same. I do not see the harm in telling people how I feel, especially when it is a direct result of this type of bantering (read mulitple threads)

I had gotten off msn chat with a current toril god and a few players from homeland and after reading this drivel posted what was on my mind.

Yeah, so you say you gave lots of favors er what not, no, I see you using the rules in the way they are established, if you really want to get into it....

I remember when I went afk for LESS than 5 minutes to make a sandwich, and you busted me down 5 levels, my trophy on xolan has been screwed ever since. I dont see the love there. And your explanation that time was mystra like.. let me refresh your memory... you said... YOU know what you did wrong.

Please, let me have my own voice and stop threatening me.


Aaron
Last edited by Xolan on Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:25 am

Once I was afraid, I was petrified... o/~
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:27 pm

Ambar wrote:buttered popcorn please

you all need to take a step back and .. regroup

stop playing if you are unhappy. let those who still want to, play

go back to your graphical games with the multitude of paid staff

you are stressing yourselves out by playing a game you no longer enjoy

move on!

its kind of like watching a crack addict who really wants to stop but cant .. hysterical even


yea, because telling people if they don't like the game to go fuck off instead of actually fixing it really works. when was the last time you did a real zone? Crimson Coalition? right.
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Postby digov » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:35 pm

Dalar wrote:yea, because telling people if they don't like the game to go fuck off instead of actually fixing it really works. when was the last time you did a real zone? Crimson Coalition? right.


Go away. Nobody likes you.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:38 pm

Dalar wrote:
Ambar wrote:buttered popcorn please

you all need to take a step back and .. regroup

stop playing if you are unhappy. let those who still want to, play

go back to your graphical games with the multitude of paid staff

you are stressing yourselves out by playing a game you no longer enjoy

move on!

its kind of like watching a crack addict who really wants to stop but cant .. hysterical even


yea, because telling people if they don't like the game to go fuck off instead of actually fixing it really works. when was the last time you did a real zone? Crimson Coalition? right.


no dear .. think we did seelie the other day unless thats not real enough for you :)
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Postby Zwathix » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:01 pm

I like Ashiwi's post, but I do not exactly agree with her very nice analogy. It might be someone else's house, but if a guest noticed a toilet leaking, you would think that the owners would acknowledge that and attempt to fix it. I am not suggesting that the staff here does not do that, but I have seen a significant number of Idea posts that have no staff responses. That would lead a newbie like myself to believe that the staff is either overwhelmed for whatever reason or does not care what the players think. I have been hanging around long enough (came with the Homeland merger) that I know the latter is not true, so it must be just too much to do in too little time.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that the staff or leaders or whomever knows that certain people are unavailable to work, yet they still do not ask for volunteer help from the general player population. (Maybe they only approach certain players and I just don't know it.)

BTW, I would be happy to help anyway I can. I figure if I'm good enough to code for a living surely I can do it for fun too...
-zg
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 pm

Zwathix, I fully agree with you. If their toilet was leaking, I'd certainly let them know, but if they didn't fix it and it wasn't a big enough problem to drive me away, I wouldn't resort to name-calling and ugliness over it, then expect them to welcome me back time and time again.

I've seen plenty of issues in this game fixed, and fixed promptly. Some issues took longer to fix. Some issues tend to slide by the way. One of the biggest problems when you're working with a volunteer base is retention. Tons of people tend to volunteer... most don't stick around. Sometimes lack of retention is due to the volunteer just losing interest, sometimes it's due to the volunteer having too much going on in real life, and sometimes it's due to the volunteer deciding that the pbase is just too darned thankless and abusive for their efforts to be worthwhile.

Check back through the news and take note of fixes and changes that have gone in over the last couple of years, then cull the BBS and take note of the biggest complainers. Once you've done that, try to take note of how often those particular players have posted positively about game issues and changes that have been made, then compare it to how many nasty, snide, hateful comments they've posted about the staff. What a horrible atmosphere to have to work in, especially when you're volunteering your time.

In the meantime, we have a handful of very dedicated staff who have stuck around in spite of the abuse and keep on plugging away. I imagine the forgers would be happy to review any applications they receive, and I would applaud you if you applied your skills to our benefit. Try mmailing the forgers if you are truly interested.
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:54 pm

Actually their mailboxes are often full, but we have a help email with email addresses where they can be contacted at :)
Eilistraee
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:10 pm

Ambar wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Ambar wrote:buttered popcorn please

you all need to take a step back and .. regroup

stop playing if you are unhappy. let those who still want to, play

go back to your graphical games with the multitude of paid staff

you are stressing yourselves out by playing a game you no longer enjoy

move on!

its kind of like watching a crack addict who really wants to stop but cant .. hysterical even


yea, because telling people if they don't like the game to go fuck off instead of actually fixing it really works. when was the last time you did a real zone? Crimson Coalition? right.


no dear .. think we did seelie the other day unless thats not real enough for you :)


seelie is easy
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:37 pm

*smile*
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Postby Botef » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:41 pm

Any time I've made a request to areas or coders alike, I've either A: Seen the request put into effect very quickly, B: Had them acknowledge that they heard me and would look into it or C: Explained why they couldn't or wouldn't be able to do what I requested.

I think close to 80% of my requests to Marthammor have either been looked into and fixed, or an explanation was given directly to me in regards to my question/complaint/suggestion. Often these fixes have been in place within a week or less.

I know my requests may not be tantamount to what some of you expect to happen when you bitch and moan, but non the less I'm heard and acknowledged...I avoid taking these complaints or suggestions to the BBS because of all the negative attention it draws...Occasionally I do, often when I feel other players input is essential...Funny that anytime I've brought something up a god has responded or contacted me personally regarded what I asked about...Funny that I've never had to resort to calling these people retards, dumbasses, wanks, bastards, idiots, or even gone so far as to suggest they stand down...

In otherwords some of you need to chill the f out and either take a break, or just play nice....Bitching, Whining, Name Calling does nothing to get things done and only further degrades your ability to communicate civally with the people who can bring change. Honestly, how can you expect the immortals to even try and take you seriously when you start the conversation off by calling them names...
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:47 pm

Who are you Botef? I'd be interested in what changes you've asked and got responses on for. No offense, but anyone can say your statements because they have no examples attached to it. The requests that were put into effect would be good to hear.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:56 pm

wrong thread sorry
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Postby Botef » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:09 pm

Dalar wrote:Who are you Botef? I'd be interested in what changes you've asked and got responses on for. No offense, but anyone can say your statements because they have no examples attached to it. The requests that were put into effect would be good to hear.


How about fixing Dire Raiders and mounted combat? Fixed right away...
Countless errors with quests and zones...All fixed promptly. I'm not gonna take the time to identify who I was and prove myself to you, it wouldn't matter...Even if you did remember who I was and I was able to 'prove' I've been around the block and seen just about everything you still probably wouldn't be satisfied...Its a running theme here with older players, and its exactly why I'm not very vocal and stay out of the public eye...People just assume cause they don't know me I must be a newb and can't possible know as much as they do.
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Postby Botef » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:25 pm

If you want to talk shop, then catch me in game or on AIM and we'll talk shop. AIM: botefarkenviir

Didn't want to sound rude above if I did...No need to derail this thread anymore than it has been.
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Postby Shar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:38 pm

Xolan wrote:FULLY EDITED!

Xolan, for all the plethera favors the staff of this mud (and the previous mud) have done for you, you should know better. Grow up or get out. You are way beyond out of line here. I *will* take serious action against you if you should make this type of post again.

-Shar

HALF EDITED!

Shar, I do not think it is fair you let other people speak their minds yet delete/edit my post when I do the same. I do not see the harm in telling people how I feel, especially when it is a direct result of this type of bantering (read mulitple threads)

I had gotten off msn chat with a current toril god and a few players from homeland and after reading this drivel posted what was on my mind.

Yeah, so you say you gave lots of favors er what not, no, I see you using the rules in the way they are established, if you really want to get into it....

I remember when I went afk for LESS than 5 minutes to make a sandwich, and you busted me down 5 levels, my trophy on xolan has been screwed ever since. I dont see the love there. And your explanation that time was mystra like.. let me refresh your memory... you said... YOU know what you did wrong.

Please, let me have my own voice and stop threatening me.


Aaron


Xolan,

As far as Whatever your dislike for me, the forgers or the other gods may be, your previous post which I edited in its entirety was out of line. It was "speaking your mind," sure. It was also over the line and called for editing. I could have done what others have done in the past and simply deleted it w/o comment, but I believe in letting others know when they are edited/deleted. My house, my rules. That is the bottom line for that.

For the OLD offense *you* dredged up, you might as well be told for that too that the action I took at that time was never dictated by me. No god acted alone at that time so if you have any problems with past actions of non-forger gods, you really have nobody to complain to. On the bright side, everyone now has a different style of mud to live in or leave.

Thems the breaks, and if you don't think what I and the other imms have done for you were favors, you can view them any way you like to. Its the beauty of possessing a mind capable of thought. The only thing you'll need to keep in mind is that while you may HATE the imms and a lot of the players here, you still have the privelege of posting and playing until YOU screw it up.

I'm sure everyone reading this is so glad that you took the time to flame the staff in such a way that I had to edit you and then that you responded to my editing in a way that I responded back, thereby wasting everyones time but yours, since I gave you fuel for your pire of hatred.

Hate me. It happens to be my job and I'm darn good at it.

Thanks.

(ps yikes on the sentance structure of my post! sorry everyone for the horrible flow of the sentances :))
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:41 pm

Not me! I lub Shar! :) Even gave me a god res on a bug! *woot*
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:05 pm

Botef wrote:
Dalar wrote:Who are you Botef? I'd be interested in what changes you've asked and got responses on for. No offense, but anyone can say your statements because they have no examples attached to it. The requests that were put into effect would be good to hear.


How about fixing Dire Raiders and mounted combat? Fixed right away...
Countless errors with quests and zones...All fixed promptly. I'm not gonna take the time to identify who I was and prove myself to you, it wouldn't matter...Even if you did remember who I was and I was able to 'prove' I've been around the block and seen just about everything you still probably wouldn't be satisfied...Its a running theme here with older players, and its exactly why I'm not very vocal and stay out of the public eye...People just assume cause they don't know me I must be a newb and can't possible know as much as they do.


On the contrary, if Inama, Klandan, or anyone "big" in my day had made your statement, I would have been surprised. I don't know you, so I begin to wonder your credibility. There are new players who I've met and have a great deal respect for such as Ifin and someone who's name i can't remember how to spell on AIM.

I don't assume you're a noob, but you may be new and ask for small things and may get them because they're small. What was wrong with Dire Raiders and mounted combat? What errors with quests and zones?
Cyric
FORGER AREAS
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Bone Castle, City of Strife

Postby Cyric » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:17 am

Nope, not quitting! BUT, I am locking this thread. Wheeeeeee!

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