War builds character...

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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War builds character...

Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:23 pm

Go ahead n defend this.... I know some of you will try.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/de ... wrocks.htm
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:26 pm

You've never hung out with rednecks have you. The video is meant to be a joke - as well as a psychological coping tool to help soldiers deal with negative emotions without using their weapons.

"Hey, stop throwing rocks and I'll give you some food."

Clearly.
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Postby Zabam » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:48 pm

Defend what?
They're kids. The reason they throw rocks is because they know the soldiers won't shoot them or stop their vehicles to beat their asses. It's obvious you have never served yours country under arms. Keep searching the internet for leftest spins on on what is happening over there and please provide it here. It gives me a good laugh.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:21 pm

I grew up with rednecks.

Screw 'leftist spin,' and yeah, coping mechanism or not, they are seriously upset that they don't have the right to shoot those kids.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:21 pm

I grew up with rednecks.

Screw 'leftist spin,' and yeah, coping mechanism or not, they are seriously upset that they don't have the right to shoot those kids.

That war can push you that far is more or less the point here... building character, ya know. (Hey, and how's shooting your children for liberation?)
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Postby Zabam » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:04 pm

Wow, you really are mis(un)informed about the integrity of US soldiers. You think those kids would throw rocks at Sadam's troops? Probably, not. The first kid to do that would be skinned and his head hung on a spit as an example.

No, US soldiers do not want to shoot kids. Not for throwing rocks, nor for being just kids. If that kid picks up an AK then he is a combatant and should be neutralized but not for being a mischeivous kid.

One thing in which you are right....War does buld character. Combat only exposes the character that one already had (or lack of) plus it impresses on individuals the knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses of their character.

To shoot my children for liberation...well you forget one big factor in someone's ability to do that....Me. Do you have any idea of what freedom is? Probably not, if you haven't put your life on the line protecting someone else's freedom.

pick up a ruck and a rifle. Go to Iraq or where ever you want to go and put your money where your mouth is. Earn yours.
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Postby Kallinar » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:11 pm

You're treading on thin ice with that one Zabam. Theres a lot of yahoos on this message board that don't know what its like to be out in the sandbox with the shit flying around you.

But these guys are right about one thing. Young U.S. soldiers aren't gonna go killing a kid with rocks. One thing present in the young males of the U.S. is bravado and the ability to "talk-shit". But about 90% of the time, something that a foreigner (or someone looking to nit pick) would take as truth, is simply the bravado and emotional response of someone trying to deal with being in a place that is as unforgiving as a redneck in Compton.

This ain't Vietnam my friend. These soldiers aren't high half the time and tend to have slightly better judgement (in most cases).
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Postby muxxissinix » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:19 pm

Zabam can you inform me about the integrity of US soldiers, thanks.
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Postby Zabam » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:54 pm

Oh well, if I fall in so be it. Won't be the first time I got wet. Our guys are in the sh*t, all over the world not just the box. This one just got my goat. Here they are running a MSR, with kids thowing rocks. They cope with it verbally, they do not hose the kids. The spin is: oh my, the soldiers really wish they could kill these kids....we really know what these low-browed b*stards want to do.

Muxx, sure I'm happy to inform. These guys have the biggest heart and soul that anyone can imagine. They go places and and experience crap that most folks wouldn't contemplate enduring (both psyhcological and physical). Many folks take their "freedom " for granted, that their freedom is a right and not something provided to them because some poor soul endures those hardships in their place. Those same folks can only theorize of what freedom is because their freedom is minimalized due to a protected environment. A soldier is putting their life on the line in a very real way. The integrity stems from the very basic reliance on your buddies and theirs on yours. The highest form of integity and honor is to stand in a place which others refuse to.

If no one else would stick-up for our people, at least I will. There, an example of intregity from a retired Army guy.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:05 pm

First, dont generalize me, especially if you dont know who I even am. You already made the mistake assuming Im just some foreigner.

Second, for god's sake, dont generalize US troops. There are thousands and thousands of them... big mistake there.

Third, watch the video again. It can be argued for sure whether or not they actually want to shoot those kids (sounds to me like he probably would shoot at them at the least) but thats besides the point. The point is that they are even vocal about it. The point is how pushed and stressed the whole situation has become, that somebody would even break that ethical barrier and begin even talking about shooting kids simply for throwing stones, which is exactly what him and his buddies are doing. And then you have to ask yourself, what would ít take to cross that line into reality? And How did we get there, and what is it getting us, and where is it likely to take the world?

Ive got plenty of family in the armed forces, this generation and generations before me. My father instilled in me a sense of not only pride, but justice and moral fiber of the sort that would have me weeping in shame if he EVER saw me talking in such a manner, no matter what the 'stress' I was under. Thats not to say nobody in my family never had to shoot some kid (vietnam/korea), but the point is, you do your duty, you protect your life and your friends lives, and you dread the day you EVER have to make that kind of decision. You DONT ever laugh or curse about it. Its serious. THese guys are not. Neither are you, not nearly enough. And thats how we get dragged into ugly moral destroying debacles in the first place... jack asses with guns and not nearly enough sense of what is wrong and what is right.

I'll tell you something, the day you *walk* through as many third-world slums as I have, with NO weapon, with NO backup, you will know not only something about bravery, but you will be a whole lot wiser about what our 'freedoms' really are and you will have a lot more understanding and respect for our so-called 'enemies.' At the very least, you will know who your enemies truly are. IF you dont by then, it means you didnt fuckin make it out. And if so, good fuckin riddance. Way too many ignorant bastards spreading self-righteous pain in this world.
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Postby Kallinar » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:50 pm

kallinar wrote: But about 90% of the time, something that a foreigner (or someone looking to nit pick)

daggaz wrote:First, dont generalize me, especially if you dont know who I even am. You already made the mistake assuming Im just some foreigner.


No no my friend...i was not attempting to generalize as seen in the ellipses.

I am now defending Zabam on being retired Army, and myself as being a Navy Vet. We've walked thru 3rd world slums. I personally haven't had to dodge bullets due to my plight in military life revolving around the launch and recovery of fighter aircraft for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in Desert Storm, Operation Deny Flight, and the Bosnia mess. Dunno Zabam's credentials but I am sure he has his share of sea stories as we squids refer to em.

And as far as generalizing U.S. troops, I can't help it, as I used to be one. The abberations that do cause trouble are just that. On a general scale U.S. troops are there to get their job done so they can get back to their families in one piece. If some little snot nose was throwing rocks at my convoy and smashing the glass, therefore lessening the integrity of my transportation, I would flip out. I wouild say things just to get it off my chest. If the kid had shot at me, I would mose assuredly taken evasive and agressive countermeasures to insure the safety of my fellow troops and the material contained within the convoy. Thats just the job.

As I said, they may have sounded like they wanted to do something about it, but in a combat zone with hostile people around you, you tend to run off your mouth and say things you would not normally say in socially acceptable situations. If the guys in this video would have stopped their truck for any reason, 1) They would be in some big trouble for stopping in the first place and holding up the convoy, 2)If they were to get out, 9 times out of 10 the kids would just run off because they are as scared as the troops are given the circumstances. 3)Contrary to poplar belief, and here i go generalizing those troops again, those guys don't wanna kill anyone if they don't have to and stopping and getting out in a zone where the kids are ballzy enough to throw rocks at the passing convoy would endanger their own lives, which leads back to the whole thing about just wanting to get the job done and go back home.

Only a small fraction of those men and women actually WANT to be out there in all that mess, but honor, duty, and commitment are all core values to the U.S. armed forces and believe me....generally speaking...soldiers take those values extremely seriously.
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Postby Zabam » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:49 pm

Way too many ignorant bastards spreading self-righteous pain in this world.

I totally agree. What's your excuse?
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Postby Cirath » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:58 pm

Man has been killing each other with rocks for a lot longer than they have with bullets. If a kid pulled a gun on you, would you still refuse to retaliate because he wasn't over 18?

Sit in juvinile court for a day or two and you will see that being young doesn't stop someone from being dangerous. A principal here in town was beaten severely by 2 of his middle school students a couple of weeks ago. In the same week, a teacher at another school (also a middle school I believe) was shot by a student. I say if the little punks try to kill someone, they have labled themselves combatants.

At least mace one or two of them. They will probably stop then.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:00 am

Excuse me, but what is there to defend?

What crime has been committed? What was worthy of offense?
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:24 am

The troops should be allowed to use water canons like cops do to control riots. After a the rest of the brats see their buddies getting hosed, bet your ass they won't be out there anymore. But using any kind of real force seems way over the top. Even an older kid prolly just thinks these big assed vehicles get beat up but I really doubt that they believe tossing a rock that just bounces off most normally is gonna inflict true damage to a person in that truck. Maybe I'm naive, but lethal force shouldn't be used on kids period (unless they open fire with bullets etc.) You can imagine how many other countries would be down our ass if we did. War sucks cuz everybody knows bad stuff happens but propoganda and PR are mostly what it's all about to the outside.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:12 am

World War II, The Battle of Leyte Gulf

The Battle off Samar

Six US unarmored escort carriers and five escort destroyers were ambushed by a Japanese fleet of 6 battleships (including the Yamato), 7 heavy cruisers, and a few additional ships in close combat.

Planes launched from the carriers as they made a break for open waters and the five small escort destroyers turned to attack the massive Japanese fleet with little chance at doing any real damage.

The battle made for a great story of history. The Japanese fleet retreated, breaking off their attack and aborting their mission.

Every ship in the American fleet suffered heavy damage, save the USS White Plains that only suffered a loss of steering. From the deck of one of those smoldering ships a signalman yells,

"Damn it, they're getting away!"
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Postby Sephraem » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:48 pm

daggaz wrote:Third, watch the video again. It can be argued for sure whether or not they actually want to shoot those kids (sounds to me like he probably would shoot at them at the least) but thats besides the point. The point is that they are even vocal about it. The point is how pushed and stressed the whole situation has become, that somebody would even break that ethical barrier and begin even talking about shooting kids simply for throwing stones, which is exactly what him and his buddies are doing. And then you have to ask yourself, what would ít take to cross that line into reality? And How did we get there, and what is it getting us, and where is it likely to take the world?


It strikes me that this is a rather silly line of reasoning. Anyone who takes a ride with me in my car learns that I keep an imaginary grenade launcher in my car for dealing with bad drivers. When I ask a passenger to pass it to me so I can fire it at another car, I'm just letting off some aggression.

I've been so angry at people that I have ranted about how I want to kill them, or shoot them, or poke them with the pointy end of a spear. The more violent and ridiculous the description, the better I feel afterwards. I'm just letting off some aggression.

Throwing rocks at people isn't a good way to let off aggression, but these kids are doing just that. Throwing things at oncoming vehicles is always stupid and given the potential consequences of being struck by something coming through your windshield, it's natural to feel angry about being placed in danger. Then you want to let off some aggression.

I'd be willing to bet that these soldiers have no more intention of gunning down these children than I have of purchasing a grenade launcher and firing it at the morons I encounter on the road, however much I talk about it.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:07 pm

I've found myself in situations where I saw children that were out of control... throwing tantrums in shopping markets, intentionally breaking stuff, screaming, yelling names, hitting, hurting their siblings, actually punching their parents. On occasion the children were so incredibly poorly misbehaved and so disruptive of everything around them, that I found myself turning to the friend or family member I was with and voicing a remark like "If she'd just tear that tongue out of that little bastard's head, I bet he wouldn't scream like that."

Sure, it's awful. It's horrible and terrible. When I see things on TV where parents have beaten their children to death, or men have raped newborns, or mothers have buckled their kids into the backseat of their car and driven it into a lake, I'm appalled. Something like that is something I would never, ever actually do. The thought of really causing harm to a child makes me physically ill. That doesn't stop me from becoming frustrated and saying something stupid on occasion, though.

Soldiers are forced to hold themselves to a higher standard, all because of stupid stuff like this. There's always somebody out there who's more than happy to take every little faux pas and twist it out of context, exaggerate it, or just totally blow it up into something it was never intended to be. Next thing you know, you're crucified publically simply for being human and responding in a manner that might be considered as inappropriate, no matter the situation you're in, and no matter that you might not be the kind of person who would ever actually do what you're now accused of, just because you opened your mouth and gave vent to frustration instead of swallowing it and letting it eat at you.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:17 pm

Oh, and P.S.

I live in Oklahoma, and every year there's a big football rivalry between Oklahoma and Texas Universities. Over the years we have found that items, especially rocks, dropped off the overpasses that dot the highway running between the two states, can be awfully deadly.
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Postby Vaprak » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:31 pm

My sister just got home from Iraq, where she was a gunner on a lead guntruck hummer for convoys. Some of my best friends also just got back from Iraq where they patrolled the streets of Bagdahd and went door-to-door looking for insurgents. I've got a piece of shrapnel sitting on my desk from the humvee my sister was in when they got hit by an IED, where fortunately nobody was badly injured. I knew a couple guys from my area that are no longer with us after they rushed up to try and help some other soldiers who had been hit by an IED, and then another IED went off and killed them too. Let me please remind you that war is hell, and I can see the changes it brings upon our soldiers firsthand in my sister.

That being said, these same kids who throw rocks at the convoys and patrols are just as likely to be praising America and yelling that they love the soldiers when the soldiers are throwing candy out their windows. They're kids that are likely just as pissed off that these soldiers weren't handing out free candy and other goodies as they are about an occupational force.

The media is a decidedly leftist group, mainly bent on making the current administration look bad, for any reason they can. If you actually talk to the soldiers and ask them if we should pull out of Iraq, a vast majority of them say "Hell no, we've got a job to finish over there" and if you ask most of my buddies if they'd go back they say they have no problem going back when its their turn again, and a couple of them are signing up voluntarily to go back after the first. One of my friends gave an Iraqi man his first ever toothbrush, and every time that guy saw the soldiers passing in the street from that point on, he'd wave, smile and make a brushing motion with his hand by his teeth. Another soldier gave another Iraqi man his lighter, the first one he'd ever seen, and this guy kept asking the soldiers when they'd be back again. Most of these guys are over there to make friends with the Iraqi people, to help them, and are very proud of the job they're doing. Any venting of anger such as what is seen in this video is just that, venting of anger over a situation that the soldiers do not feel in control of. The likelyhood of a soldier actually shooting a kid is next to nill.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:56 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Oh, and P.S.

I live in Oklahoma, and every year there's a big football rivalry between Oklahoma and Texas Universities. Over the years we have found that items, especially rocks, dropped off the overpasses that dot the highway running between the two states, can be awfully deadly.


Me, my brother, and step-brother threw rocks off an overpass in San Diego when we were very young (around 7 or so). We hit a few cars and got busted. In retrospect it was a very stupid thing to do. My "real" dad ended having to pay quite a bit of cash for the damages to a few of the cars that caught us running back up the hill. I haven't seen him since.

As far as those soldiers. They are idiots. Are they the majority? Maybe. I'm quite positive not one person on this board can say with any certainty that they are or aren't. You can moan about it all day, but when it comes down to it -- all of our experiences with people in the war and what we have seen are extremely limited. And even the information we do get has probaby had a spin put on it. I mean, what person in their right mind would come back and admit they wanted to shoot the kids? Who would come back and say that they shot innocent people for no reason? Nobody. They'll want to make themselves seem good even if they weren't. They could have been good, but you never know. And if anyone here can PROVE one way or the other, I'll personally let you shove a table leg up my ass.

As far as the media trying to make Bush look bad... Well, he does a pretty damn good job himself. Bush supporters have been looking the other way as he's been lying his ass off about this war for years now. He's a corrupt politician and that's that. He's incompetant to run a country, and his administration has dropped the ball quite a few times when we needed them not to. So, yeah, the "media" is putting a "leftist spin" on the news, but Fox news does the same thing in the opposite direction -- and when they do it most people with a shred of common sense laugh at how obviously retarded it truely sounds. I can't blame them though. There's really no way to put a good spin on some of the crap that this administration has done without looking retarded. But, they're getting paid, so maybe they don't care.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:36 pm

Now now, it's not necessarily leftist spin.

What is ignorant is not always leftist.
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Postby Corth » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:52 pm

Yeah but what is leftist is almost always ignorant. :)

*duck*
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:31 am

Normally I'd just ignore that, but if anyone knows anything about ignorance... (irony intended)
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Postby sok » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:24 pm

ned flander run lefty emporium
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Postby Kallinar » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:03 am

Now now..leftist and left handed aren't the same either! I'm left handed dangit.
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Postby ssar » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:11 am

Hmm, there's a fair amount of support bordering on the glorification or war and soldiers in this and other threads (and other discussions/literature around the world too, for that matter) - that's going too far.

Sure it's great that "defence" force personnel go on assignments to help the innocent and general public of the area, give them gifts, food, assistance, rebuilding, taking down proven globally condemned dictators and aggressors etc, etc.

And sure it's great that the "defence" forces provide a significant level of employment and technical training to people, as well as facilitate research into some of the most cutting edge technology too.

But War and fighting with guns is something that should never happen, and should never be wished or forced upon any sane person.
Similarly it should not be glorified and claimed that such "character building" from "defence" force action is supreme and only attainable through "defence" force action.

Respect for "defence" force personnel in the responsibility/technical expertise they have and some of the nastiest of tasks they have to face and carry out, and the guts some of these people have to do it too is a great thing.
But overstepping such respect into gross glorification is a dangerous and distasteful slap in the face for some of the core human values we all hold so dear.
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Postby kwirl » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:17 am

a famous soldier once said, "i dont want, anybody else - when i think about you i touch myself"

that has always summed up what war is really about to me. *wipes a tear* i love you guys....but i touch myself
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Postby Gura » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:58 pm

i just think its funny that they're all driving fuel trucks.
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Postby Vaprak » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:31 pm

Gura wrote:i just think its funny that they're all driving fuel trucks.


They might be fuel trucks, if you consider how much fuel it takes to run an M1A1 Abrams tank or any of the heavy equipment being used by our National Guard and Army Corp of Engineering troops to rebuild sewers, roads, power plants, water treatment facilities, schools, hospitals...

They're also just as likely to be water tankers. It takes a good deal of potable water to maintain the troops we have over there, and although they mostly drink bottled water they still do tend to want to take showers and use the toilet even if the Iraqis never do. It's mostly a desert, if you hadn't noticed, which requires water to be trucked in to most bases.

To insinuate that our troops are hauling gas around to serve the American need for cars and energy is ridiculous. Obviously the exploitation of middle eastern oil is solely in the hands of Halburton, not our Armed Forces.
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foreign relations

Postby muma » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:14 pm

Daggaz is an american living in denmark. he also doesn't like america. i know this cause he said so a long time ago on ooc :P hahah.

anyway, if you try to mix morals with war. you are an idiot (ok maybe not, but very naive). war cannot be moral. it never was, and never will be. i wish they would stop trying to prove what war is just and which isn't, cause the truth is, none of them are just. that theory is bullsh*t (just war theory). anyway, i have no comment about the kids throwing rocks, cause i don't really care.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:51 pm

Vaprak wrote:
Gura wrote:i just think its funny that they're all driving fuel trucks.


They might be fuel trucks, if you consider how much fuel it takes to run an M1A1 Abrams tank or any of the heavy equipment being used by our National Guard and Army Corp of Engineering troops to rebuild sewers, roads, power plants, water treatment facilities, schools, hospitals...

They're also just as likely to be water tankers. It takes a good deal of potable water to maintain the troops we have over there, and although they mostly drink bottled water they still do tend to want to take showers and use the toilet even if the Iraqis never do. It's mostly a desert, if you hadn't noticed, which requires water to be trucked in to most bases.

To insinuate that our troops are hauling gas around to serve the American need for cars and energy is ridiculous. Obviously the exploitation of middle eastern oil is solely in the hands of Halburton, not our Armed Forces.


Lol, even if the Iraqis never poop in toilets and take showers? Man, were you born a racist idiot or did you devolve over time?

Seriously, and if you are going to admit that a corperation is exploiting the region you'd also have to believe that the government is allowing this. You'd also be charged with making the connection between these two things and the fact that there was a war anyway. Then you would be forced to admit that the war was not for a protection of Iraqi rights (to not poop in toilets in your wonderful veiws), WMD (proven many times that the administration never truely believed they were there), or terrorists (was never connected to osama), etc... Then you must then assume that people who willingly go to this war are supporting this because the "defense of America" is no longer an issue as we were in no danger from these people in the first place.

What is it with you people who think that the men and women in the armed forces are all, or even mostly, good natured or have good intentions? I've heard a lot of my friends that are going over there say crap like, "I'm gonna shoot me some terrorists," or some other bullshit. I'm sure they're not alone as there are many idiots in this country. Not to say there aren't the opposite over there, but this naive mindset that we have an armed forces compiled of virtuous people is just wrong. And do you think for a second that our army is teaching our soldiers to respect people they're going to have to kill? I hardly think so.
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Postby Cirath » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:52 pm

ssar wrote:But War and fighting with guns is something that should never happen, and should never be wished or forced upon any sane person.


Might as well say "rain should never happen." They are both equally likely to stop occuring.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:03 pm

I watched it and I didn't honestly think the U.S. soldier(s) present wanted to shoot the kids with their guns.


Maybe what the truck drivers need to carry is an air gun so they can shoot out rolled up T-shirts to the little kids, like what they do at sports events? Perhaps if the T-shirts also had unifying themes/logos on them for a unified democratic Iraq, it would be more beneficial?
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Postby ssar » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:39 pm

They have air guns that shoot rolled-up t-shirts?
COOL!
Replace all guns with air t-shirt shooters @once.
Many problems solved in one fell swoop.

You've been hit!
You unroll your T-shirt and it reads: "pwned."
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Postby Kallinar » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:00 am

ssar wrote:They have air guns that shoot rolled-up t-shirts?
COOL!
Replace all guns with air t-shirt shooters @once.
Many problems solved in one fell swoop.

You've been hit!
You unroll your T-shirt and it reads: "pwned."


Sounds like a good idea for a Tiamat proc....shooting out the Tiamat novelty T-shirt!
Kallinar goes MOO

Image

Confucious say: He who walk around with hand in pocket feel kockie all day.
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Postby Cirath » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:12 am

Kifle wrote:What is it with you people who think that the men and women in the armed forces are all, or even mostly, good natured or have good intentions? I've heard a lot of my friends that are going over there say crap like, "I'm gonna shoot me some terrorists," or some other bullshit. I'm sure they're not alone as there are many idiots in this country. Not to say there aren't the opposite over there, but this naive mindset that we have an armed forces compiled of virtuous people is just wrong. And do you think for a second that our army is teaching our soldiers to respect people they're going to have to kill? I hardly think so.


Does it really matter how friendly or pleasant a soldier is? As long as he follows orders, it doesn't really matter. Soldiers exist to kill. That is their only purpose. To believe or expect anything else is ridiculous at best. I am not sure when this expectation of the shiny, happy protector of liberty and justice came about, but it has no basis in reality.

A soldier is just a sword, and nothing more, so what is the point in complaining about how sensitive they are? As long as they obey orders, that is all you could ever ask of them.
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Postby Zabam » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:07 pm

Believe it or not....under the Clinton Administration we had to attend ongoing classes in "Consideration of Others" Training. Funny for a bunch of guys whose primary job is to kill people and break things. But, we do take oaths, some numerous oaths to protect/defend. As in any cultural group, you'll get a variety belief of the responsibility of and validity of the oaths taken. Majority do hold the oath(s) dear to them.

Much of the Bravado you'll hear from personnel deploying, such as "I gonna shoot me some terrorists" is just talk. Normal reaction to one facing an unknown, possibly hazardous, environment. Those individuals really do not know (deep down and personal) if they or will they handle that situation they are about to experience. They change their attitude real fast when they hit the ground and reality of their situation sets in.

There is a quantum leap between talk and action. This is one thing American "liberals" can not mentally grasp. To them, to think is to do. No one knows how they will react and the inital talk is just fantasy. Yeah, I wish we could all wear bed sheets, pick daisies, smoke dope, and just plain get along. But that ain't reality.

Also, every "defense" force in the history of mankind has gotten their asses kicked. The Aussies I knew didn't consider themselves a defense force but a military force. Very capable and professional. They didn't sit on their UN butt and theorize defending anything, thats for the folks who never made it out of academia.

Merry Christmas All
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Postby Cirath » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:55 am

Zabam wrote:...But, we do take oaths, some numerous oaths to protect/defend. As in any cultural group, you'll get a variety belief of the responsibility of and validity of the oaths taken. Majority do hold the oath(s) dear to them.


Crusaders took oaths too.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:58 am

Cirath wrote:Crusaders took oaths too.


US military men aren't Crusaders.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:20 am

Cirath wrote:
Kifle wrote:What is it with you people who think that the men and women in the armed forces are all, or even mostly, good natured or have good intentions? I've heard a lot of my friends that are going over there say crap like, "I'm gonna shoot me some terrorists," or some other bullshit. I'm sure they're not alone as there are many idiots in this country. Not to say there aren't the opposite over there, but this naive mindset that we have an armed forces compiled of virtuous people is just wrong. And do you think for a second that our army is teaching our soldiers to respect people they're going to have to kill? I hardly think so.


Does it really matter how friendly or pleasant a soldier is? As long as he follows orders, it doesn't really matter. Soldiers exist to kill. That is their only purpose. To believe or expect anything else is ridiculous at best. I am not sure when this expectation of the shiny, happy protector of liberty and justice came about, but it has no basis in reality.

A soldier is just a sword, and nothing more, so what is the point in complaining about how sensitive they are? As long as they obey orders, that is all you could ever ask of them.


So, if soldiers exist to kill, why did they stack sandbags along the Mississippi river about a decade ago? There are many other such situations. If the soldiers were only trained to kill, they would be horribly ineffective. Take combat medics for example. It's a good thing they aren't there just to kill. That would be pretty funny in an ironic sort of way.

Also, according to your last statement, the soldiers that burned Jews alive were just doing their job. Saddam's soldiers and underlings that tortured and killed millions of innocents were just doing there jobs. Those who flew into the twin towers were just doing their jobs. And to you that is just fine -- because they only followed orders.

I could go on, but your idea that soldiers are there to be mindless killing machines is rediculous
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Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

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Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:28 am

Zabam wrote:Much of the Bravado you'll hear from personnel deploying, such as "I gonna shoot me some terrorists" is just talk. Normal reaction to one facing an unknown, possibly hazardous, environment. Those individuals really do not know (deep down and personal) if they or will they handle that situation they are about to experience. They change their attitude real fast when they hit the ground and reality of their situation sets in.


And about the people who sign up JUST to "go kill some terrorists?" That kinda ruins your theory. And, believe it or not, there are quite a few of those type of people signing up for the military.

There is a quantum leap between talk and action. This is one thing American "liberals" can not mentally grasp. To them, to think is to do. No one knows how they will react and the inital talk is just fantasy. Yeah, I wish we could all wear bed sheets, pick daisies, smoke dope, and just plain get along. But that ain't reality.


That's a pretty generalization there. I'm positive there are many many "American liberals" that are much more informed and intelligent than you. Somebody so quick to school somebody in reality should probably figure out what reality is first. There's no reason for the blind to lead the blind, buddy.

Also, every "defense" force in the history of mankind has gotten their asses kicked.


You wanna tell that to the North Vietnamese? I'm sure they'd tell you otherwise. Defense is just as important in war as offense. And no "force" was ever strictly a defensive one either. No military is taught just defense. So I'm not sure where you are getting your facts here.

Nice try though...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:25 am

Funny, Kifle, your post seems devoid of fact. Both your post and the one you are responding to seem to be just rhetoric.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:18 am

teflor the ranger wrote:US military men aren't Crusaders.


My point is that an oath is just a bunch of words unless the man that said them can hold fast to it.

Kifle wrote:Also, according to your last statement, the soldiers that burned Jews alive were just doing their job. Saddam's soldiers and underlings that tortured and killed millions of innocents were just doing there jobs. Those who flew into the twin towers were just doing their jobs. And to you that is just fine -- because they only followed orders.


True, they were. You make it sound as though either side of a war is pretty. When it comes down to killing, there is no good guy, only the guy you agree with and/or the guy you are afraid of.

I never said anything about them being mindless, though.

Oh, and I like the little "And to you that is just fine..." part.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:57 am

A mindless tool does not make for a good soldier - as mindless tools will follow any orders given by any user.

US military men, as a duty, must refuse unlawful orders.

That means every order they receive they must consider and chose to accept or reject.

There are good guys and bad guys in war, although it is not always apparent.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:11 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Funny, Kifle, your post seems devoid of fact. Both your post and the one you are responding to seem to be just rhetoric.


Oh man, another useless teflor post :( I'm starting to wonder if you are just as useless outside of the internet as you are in it.
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Postby Zabam » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Somebody so quick to school somebody in reality should probably figure out what reality is first. There's no reason for the blind to lead the blind, buddy.

Well, if I look at my CV....I've been through graduate school. Spent 22 years in the US Army, retiring as a Field Grade Officer. Led, trained, cared for, disciplined,and mentored many soldiers. Managed major programs for research and developement (manager in civilian terms). Have intimate experience with operations around the world with 3,4,7 IDs and 18th ABN Corps. Now Im an applied physicist, a teacher, and a training integrator for emergency response in "real world" applications. I see much crap...worldwide...that you'll never see on the nightly news nor will any arm chair liberal who theorizes what the world is based on a narrow field of view. An ameoba synthesizes more of the real world than they do. Yep, I must be blind....follow me.

As for a defense force, the NVA were not equipped as a "Defense Force", nor were they trained as one. If I remember my military history correctly, didn't they "invade" the south and sustain offensive combat operations? Even though, they did get their asses military kicked. Numerous forces were developed as pure defensive entities.....lets see...Hellas City States 340 BC (Alexander kicked their ass), Charthage 146 BC (Rome kicked their ass), Rome after 425 AD (Goths did em in), France 1940 (Germans kranked on them)....there are many historical of these types of military ideologies. The defensive force was developed due to political consideraions and not military ones and has been inherent in societies that were realatively weak of moral fortitude. The term defensive force is just something used to make military organizations more palitable within those socities. They really didn't want to piss off their neighbors. Again, its terminology (or at least or redeifinition of terminology) of how those liberals deal with "reality".

Those folks joining with that attitude aren't soldiers yet....are they.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:04 pm

Close but no cigar Muma...

I am an American living in Denmark, I love my country, but there are certain things which I find extremely distasteful, and having travelled in dozens of other countries around the world, I could definitely name a few that I would prefer to live in. Anywhere in Scandenvavia for that matter (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, and yeah, even Finland tho its radically different)... But you can't say I dont like the USA, not flat-out generally like that.

The biggest things I don't like about the states (enough to warrant living in another country) are:

1. Unbelievable levels of racism, from all sides of the fence.

2. High levels of ignorance and intolerance among far too many citizens, especially in regards to the rest of the world. The geography jokes are just the tip of the iceberg.

3. A 'Machismo' culture that is far more violent and aggressive than in any Latin-American country I have ever visited.

4. The first worlds absolute WORST social network for citizens, such as no free higher education (Iraq had that under Sadaam even, Iran has it now), no universal free healthcare, a shameful senior citizens benefits system, and little or no funding for other common social programs.

5. A foreign relations record that puts to SHAME pretty much every evil-doer dictator we have ever fought against except Hitler, regardless of how much aid we have given out, and the absolute ignorance/denial most Americans have regarding this subject (or the blatant justification of it, as it was done to benefit America, therefor it is right).

6. A system of government which although great, is fundamentally flawed (parliamentary system vs winner takes all devision of power, and the 2-party screw the voters system) and flagrantly corrupt (lobby-groups, pork barrels, special interests, corporate donations etc..), and yet still is touted as the 'greatest democracy' on the planet.


Well.. I could go on, but I won't bother, people will flame no matter what.
I'm just glad I had the nerve, and the luck, to get out and travel the world and really start learning what it means to be a human on this planet of ours.

Well, now I've gone and hijacked my own thread, but couldn't let that comment stand uncontested. And just so you know, there are tons of things I love about the states. One of my favorite films of all time?

American Beauty. [/quote]
Last edited by daggaz on Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:10 pm

Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Funny, Kifle, your post seems devoid of fact. Both your post and the one you are responding to seem to be just rhetoric.


Oh man, another useless teflor post :( I'm starting to wonder if you are just as useless outside of the internet as you are in it.


You would be ignorant like that. By the way, Kifle studies philosophy and his grasp of military history is the kind of grasp a three year old has on carrot stick.

Anyone else responding to him on this thread, I would recommend a lot of careful and slowly worded explaining and hand holding.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:53 pm

Where's my sword of threadlslaying... it needs to proc on this one immediately.

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