War is Hell...the use of WMD on our troops in Iraq

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War is Hell...the use of WMD on our troops in Iraq

Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:38 pm

Forget the melting of civilians with phosperous in Falluja, here is undeniable proof of the effects of DU (denied of course by the Pentagon all these years) on our own troops.

The first paragraph of course is just 'rabid leftist spin from the liberal media' but if you actually give a damn about the troops (and I bet your car's bumper does) you will go so far as to read the second and third paragraphs, which pretty much lay it out, and maybe even, gasp, the whole article.

DU use is also a clear violation of the Geneva convention as it constitutes an uncontrollable threat to all human life, civilian and military, for years after its initial use. How long? Well, Uranium 238 has a halflife of about 4.5 billion years... Its biological halflife in the lungs (how long it lasts before half of it has moved on to other parts of your body) is 1 or 2 years.

Here's the main thread...
http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Deplete ... 1804.shtml

And here's a scientific overview of DU and its effects for the more curious..
http://www.ccnr.org/du_hague.html

God bless Bush and his nuclear war, (and Clinton and the UN used it in kosovo, and Bush Sr. of course used it in the first Gulf War).
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:51 pm

Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water.

Depleted uranium is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium.

It's funny how people seem to forget that uranium is a natural metal. In fact, you have some 90 micrograms in your body right now.

According to the WHO:
In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group.

So let me get this straight - uranium MINERS who are exposed to uranium all the time are more at risk from exposure to RADON than from DU? Interesting.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:59 pm

Bahahaha... Mercury is a natural metal too. You gonna take a few tablespoons of it for me plz? Oh plz.. oh plz oh plz oh plz..

My god Teflor, you are dumber than Elan sometimes. Something tells me you didnt even bother to read the link...

Oh and it 'naturally' occurs in rocks in concentrations rarely exceeding 2-4 parts per million, in forms which are, besides being buried deeply inside of mountains and locked in rockform, also locked up in less-than reactive chemical forms (a natural process considering reactive forms REACT over the years). So the miners who dig the stuff up do have very minimal exposure to a form which isnt very reactive and is very hard to be absorbed in their bodies.

DU, or Depleted Uranium, is formed of Uranium Oxide (U0_2 or U0_3) and is extremely reactive, extremely toxic, and can even combust under the right conditions. It is readily absorbed into the body, where it tends to stay for years and years. It causes horrible problems in ALL animal subjects, and coincedentally, humans (IE gulfwar syndrome).

Also, we used several thousand TONS of this stuff in Iraq already... when the shell hits, the DU vaporizes and it can remain airborne for a long time. It sits in the dust and can be kicked back up with just a little wind. It is readily absorbed thru the lungs.

So... miners, small exposure to relatively nonharmful form...
Soldiers, much larger exposure to highly toxic forms..

Oh one last thing... its not the fookin radiation strictly thats making them sick, you retard. Its TOXIC, and highly so. Thats another thing about the miners... its such low concentration, the backradiation is almost nothing compared to anyother source.... radiation levels of ALL radioactive elements are dependant on concentration.
Last edited by daggaz on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:02 pm

daggaz wrote:Bahahaha... Mercury is a natural metal too. You gonna take a few tablespoons of it for me plz? Oh plz.. oh plz oh plz oh plz..

My god Teflor, you are dumber than Elan sometimes. Something tells me you didnt even bother to read the link...

Oh and it 'naturally' occurs in rocks in concentrations rarely exceeding 2-4 parts per million, in forms which are, besides being buried deeply inside of mountains and locked in rockform, also locked up in less-than reactive chemical forms (a natural process considering reactive forms REACT over the years).

DU, or Depleted Uranium, is formed of Uranium Oxide (U0_2 or U0_3) and is extremely reactive, extremely toxic, and can even combust under the right conditions.


Actually, you're the idiot. Unless you're trying to tell me someone is trying to take a few teaspoons of DU. Have you had your DU today?

Nice how you totally ignore the URANIUM MINERS and the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION - you see, that's what I call ignorance.

But we all knew you were the moron.
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Postby Zabam » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:06 pm

May I suggest more infocrap research...do a search for Rokke. You'll find more junk science on DU.

The problem with DU is not, repeat not it's radiological properties, but in it's physiological-chemical properties. It's a heavy metal, and thus has all of the toxicological problems associaled with those properties. We've studied DU inhalation and injection (shapnel) for years and found no radiological effects only those chemical effects due to the heavy metal properties.

Note: if something has a long T1/2 it is not very radioactive. When the U-234/235 is removed from natural uranium (nod, it comes from mother earth), the remaining portion (the "depleated" uranium) is about 60% less radioactive than in its natural ore state.

Should we use lead penetrators, or maybe go back to tungsten? Those are much more toxic from a chemical point of view the DU. But one thing that is true, when ever one has a weapons system that works. Others will cry foul. Did you know that since the DU penetrators work so well, numerous other countries (like all of NATO, Russia, China, etc etc) use DU kinetic energy weapons? DU is used due to its specific density and pyrophoric nature, its make a wonderful KE round for piercing dense things like tank armor.

The acute hazard to DU is getting hit with a round between one's eyes.

That's not to say that I would want to inhale DU dust. Just like I wouldn't want to inhale lead, abestos, etc either. All may mobilize into the blood strean and incorporate into the kidney with is the target organ for all heavy metals.

The DU issue is an old one generating from about 14 years ago. It was a nuclear rallying cry for antiwar whatevers and was initially one of an "anti-nuke" agrument which was very, very incorrect. So, at least in my book, this is an old-dead issue. Science (re: peer reviewed, published in journals, and reproducible) has proven otherwise of what you can find from activist sites. This is old hat stuff, find something more relavant like the synergistic relationship between innocculations (vaccines) and and occupations exposures to TIMs.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:08 pm

The military has drastically cut its use of depleted uranium in recent years... You know, I'm really sick of these ignorant military-related posts. There are more serious dangers involved in being in any service than something as beneign as this. I watch a guy almost lose his head last month when a chaff round exploded in the launcher... and I'm nowhere near the Gulf.

Ask Ambar about some of the hazardous crap they use on our aircraft... the stuff with the warning that reads "Will cause cancer". Its a dangerous job, anyone who thinks differently shouldn't sign up. There is no draft so no one can pretend that they were forced into it. Now will you idiots please stop posting this kind of ignorant garbage.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:09 pm

Any military munition is going to be a heavy metal. Lead, tungsten, depleted uranium.

Really, people should just not try to go to war with the United States. That's just asking for a whole world of hurt.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:09 pm

Tef... buddy..

Seriously.. by your logic, go ahead and EAT some Uranium Oxide for me, if natural occurance = safe. Tablespoons of mercury, was just an amount... it dont matter... you dont need a tablespoon of mercury to get REAL sick. You certaintly dont need a few grams of DU.

And I dont ignore the WHO.. You just happen to ignore half the facts and jump on something thinking your right when you didnt bother to learn the difference between what you think you are talking about, and the truth.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:11 pm

Yeah... anybody who goes to war with us is asking for a lot of pain.

I like how you gloss over the fact that we do it to our own troops too.
Woot go go patriot retards! Teflor to the front lines, please! Im sure the sick and dying american troops would rather it had been you, especially with all of your reassurances.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:11 pm

Daggaz,

I didn't say it was safe. I was only pointing out that the use of DU is less important than that of preventing miners from breathing radon. Why don't you try reading the WHO report on DU, as well as the RAND study.

Then you can come on with the differences.

You're the one jumping immediatly to insults - probably because it's all you have.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:14 pm

Gormal .... read the second link, then you wont be so ignorant..
Yeah bullets are dangerous... but THOUSANDS of troops have died since coming home, and its becoming more and more clear that this is why. Those soldiers are the ones fighting for the truth here, and ignorant people come out harping the militaries assurances that this stuff isnt that bad. Cancer is just ONE of the effects (and it causes dozens of types)..

Far more troops have died since coming home from Gulf War 1 of strange diseases than EVER fell during actual combat.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:18 pm

And for you guys who are just spouting the same old 'its just greenwing anti-nuke' bs or its been proven 'not that harmful'...

Try reading the article, then posting a response. This is NEW statistical research done on OUR troops, proving that the pentagon line is far from true... (remember when they said agent orange was harmless, and sprayed it on our own troops?)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:19 pm

daggaz wrote:Gormal .... read the second link, then you wont be so ignorant..
Yeah bullets are dangerous... but THOUSANDS of troops have died since coming home, and its becoming more and more clear that this is why. Those soldiers are the ones fighting for the truth here, and ignorant people come out harping the militaries assurances that this stuff isnt that bad. Cancer is just ONE of the effects (and it causes dozens of types)..

Far more troops have died since coming home from Gulf War 1 of strange diseases than EVER fell during actual combat.


Funny, but your source never says that DU is the reason why 'thousands of troops have died' since coming home.

Why don't you re-read it.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:22 pm

Heh... If you cant read between the lines, or get the general meaning or so-called 'gist' of an article, try actually paying attention..

Cuz here they spell it out

'Since these soldiers were exposed to vaccines and depleted uranium (DU) only, this is strong evidence for researchers and scientists working on this issue, that DU is the definitive cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Vaccines are not known to cause cancer.'

That would be the first part of the fourth paragraph. Try actually r-e-a-d-i-n-g, Teflor.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:22 pm

How does it feel to be dumber than Teflor Daggaz?
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:26 pm

Wouldn't know Gormal, Ive never tried it. You tell me..
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:27 pm

daggaz wrote:Tef... buddy..

Seriously.. by your logic, go ahead and EAT some Uranium Oxide for me, if natural occurance = safe. Tablespoons of mercury, was just an amount... it dont matter... you dont need a tablespoon of mercury to get REAL sick. You certaintly dont need a few grams of DU.

And I dont ignore the WHO.. You just happen to ignore half the facts and jump on something thinking your right when you didnt bother to learn the difference between what you think you are talking about, and the truth.


And this is why Teflor should be banned from the BBS
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Postby daggaz » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:33 pm

But for the fun of it, Ill spell out how daggaz vs teflor has gone so far.

I posted an article on DU, that it was dangerous and killing our troops.

Teflors first response was two part.

1. Uranium is naturally occuring.. (the implication here is of course, that therefor its not dangerous. He can deny making this implication, but then, what was the point of bringing such an obvious fact up?)

2. Miners who mine uranium dont get sick from radiation.

I responded with,

1. Natural != safe.
2. Diff between mining uranium and breathing DU
a.radiation isnt the issue
b.chemical toxicity and doseage IS

Teflor then claimed that my article made no link between DU and gulfwar syndrom.

I quickly pointed out the obvious fault in this statement.

My guess, Teflor just wants to argue, and seeing my post, quickly googled Uranium for a fact or two and threw it out there without reading the post.
You on the other hand gormal, are probably slightly more sophisticated and decided to argue with me based on your knowledge of our differences in political opinion and you previous, tho outdated military knowledge of DU. I suspect you didnt read the article very thoroughly, probably just breezed it over and blew us both off as hippies.
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Postby Oghma » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:42 pm

Seriously guys, stop with the personal attacks. It's gotten rather old.
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Postby rylan » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:52 pm

I just felt like posting here before the thread is locked or deleted.

Carry on flaming
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Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:06 pm

Oghma wrote:Seriously guys, stop with the personal attacks. It's gotten rather old.


Have you never for a single moment actually looked at who is involved in the majority of these fights? If you want to do something about it, stop posting that we should stop fighting and start banning people. Start with the common denominator and work your way from there if it continues. Or you can just go with a system that hasn't work since you guys tried it ages ago.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:07 pm

rylan wrote:Carry on flaming


Lol, you do enough of that for all of us rylan. You're such a flamer.
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Postby Zabam » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:33 pm

I don't know him, never met him, but....

I'm beginning to like Teflor the Ranger more and more....

Oooohraaaah buddy!
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:36 pm

Sarvis reincarnated?!?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Zabam » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:32 pm

Just for info purposes, here are some links I recommend.

http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/p ... ir_pub/en/

http://hps.org/documents/dufactsheet.pdf

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/du.htm

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts150.html

You'll get some technical links within these sites if one wants more, but these are a start for the basics. I did a test search for DU and I was amazed at the results. Not one valid scientific reference or organization was produced, well, I did stop looking after 14 pages of results.

For professional reading I'd recommend ICRP and NCRP Reports (International and Nation Councils for Radiation Protection). On www.ncrp.org you can find a bunch of info references we use on a practical day-to-day basis. I'd recomment NRCP#65 Management of Persons Accidentally Contanimated with Radioactive Material and NRCP# 138 Terrorist Use of Radioactive Materials. It'll only cost ya 50 bucks per pub, but at least you'd get validity of info.
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Postby Salen » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:25 pm

If DU isn't harmful, why did the USAF retrofit the A-10 with a lead lining for the underside of the cockpit after an massive number of early Warthog pilot got cancer?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:23 am

daggaz wrote:Heh... If you cant read between the lines, or get the general meaning or so-called 'gist' of an article, try actually paying attention..

Cuz here they spell it out

'Since these soldiers were exposed to vaccines and depleted uranium (DU) only, this is strong evidence for researchers and scientists working on this issue, that DU is the definitive cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Vaccines are not known to cause cancer.'

That would be the first part of the fourth paragraph. Try actually r-e-a-d-i-n-g, Teflor.


So where are the thousands dead?

Hmmmm? Nice WMD, btw.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:26 am

Salen wrote:If DU isn't harmful, why did the USAF retrofit the A-10 with a lead lining for the underside of the cockpit after an massive number of early Warthog pilot got cancer?


Fully false. My A-10s were lined with titanium from the beginning.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:29 am

daggaz wrote:But for the fun of it, Ill spell out how daggaz vs teflor has gone so far.

I posted an article on DU, that it was dangerous and killing our troops.

Teflors first response was two part.

1. Uranium is naturally occuring.. (the implication here is of course, that therefor its not dangerous. He can deny making this implication, but then, what was the point of bringing such an obvious fact up?)

2. Miners who mine uranium dont get sick from radiation.

I responded with,

1. Natural != safe.
2. Diff between mining uranium and breathing DU
a.radiation isnt the issue
b.chemical toxicity and doseage IS

Teflor then claimed that my article made no link between DU and gulfwar syndrom.

I quickly pointed out the obvious fault in this statement.

My guess, Teflor just wants to argue, and seeing my post, quickly googled Uranium for a fact or two and threw it out there without reading the post.
You on the other hand gormal, are probably slightly more sophisticated and decided to argue with me based on your knowledge of our differences in political opinion and you previous, tho outdated military knowledge of DU. I suspect you didnt read the article very thoroughly, probably just breezed it over and blew us both off as hippies.


Ignorant. And fully incorrect.


Where did I say there was no link between DU and the 'gulf war syndrome'?


That's right. You're dead wrong.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:20 am

World Health Organization

A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.


Weapon of Mass Destruction? The only thing destroyed is your credibility.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:22 am

For the general population, neither civilian nor military use of DU is likely to produce exposures to DU significantly above normal background levels of uranium. Therefore, individual exposure assessments for DU will normally not be required. Exposure assessments based on environmental measurements may, however, be needed for public information and reassurance.

Insignificant you say? So are the claims of DU being a WMD.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:23 am

BBC

Preliminary studies have shown no links between the use of DU shells and cancer or birth defects.

Preliminary research shows WMD to be Weak, Made up Dog crap.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:26 am

Office of the Special Assistant for Gulf War Illnesses

The threat of chemical toxicity would also be minimal because there is little likelihood that sufficient quantities of DU could be inhaled or ingested to cause a heavy metal concern.

There is little likelyhood of being insulted and having it stick when they're just plain, dead wrong.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:27 am

DOD / RAND

The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

Independant research verifies that you're wrong.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:29 am

NATO

a very large body of existing scientific and medical research clearly established that such a link between Depleted Uranium ammunition and the reported illnesses was extremely unlikely

No Arrogance, just Totally Owned.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:31 am

Depleted uranium is not significantly more harmful than any other material suitible for use as a ballistic projectile.

Its use has also been dramatically reduced by the US military (for the sake of public relations) and we are now using tungsten to horribly kill the enemies of the United States of America.

To insinuate that DU is either a WMD or that it is any more dangerous than really any other kind of weapon meant to kill people is ridiculous, unfounded on any scientific grounds, and just plain incorrect.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sephraem » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:37 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Its use has also been dramatically reduced by the US military (for the sake of public relations) and we are now using tungsten to horribly kill the enemies of the United States of America.


I was considering buying a ring made of tungsten. Should I be wary?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:12 am

Dalar wrote:And this is why Teflor should be banned from the BBS


I don't appreciate this suggestion, nor should I. Why shouldn't you be banned from the BBS?
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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:20 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:And this is why Teflor should be banned from the BBS


I don't appreciate this suggestion, nor should I. Why shouldn't you be banned from the BBS?


Because 1) he's contributed a lot to the community over the years. You have not. 2) He doesn't harass and belittle everybody that disagrees with him. You do. 3) He doesn't begin every one of his posts with "You're ignorant." You do. I could go on...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:29 am

Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:And this is why Teflor should be banned from the BBS


I don't appreciate this suggestion, nor should I. Why shouldn't you be banned from the BBS?


Because 1) he's contributed a lot to the community over the years. You have not. 2) He doesn't harass and belittle everybody that disagrees with him. You do. 3) He doesn't begin every one of his posts with "You're ignorant." You do. I could go on...


So far, I see you harassing and belittling me.

Why don't you go on?

While you're at it, why don't you find every post that I've begun with 'you're ignorant' and I'll find every equivilant post of yours.

Furthermore, what has he contributed to the community and how have I not contributed to the community?

It will be interesting to see your responses. I personally doubt they will hold any water whatsoever, but I'm willing to hear your case.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Zabam
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Postby Zabam » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:45 pm

In my short time here,
Teflor seems to be one of the few people who post here to have any sense, plus he's got a cutting wit.

I think more folks should use Teflor as a role model.

Good job Teflor, Bravo.

I do find it funny that people post items as fact in which they
1) have no personal knowedge of the subject
2) have no formal training, education, or experience in the subject
3) are reciting other's information as fact, while the main crux of their source is based on a political/social/economic agenda with no concern if that info is correct/has manipulated data/ignores data
4) don't really care if the info is true or not and will not do the investigation to determine validity before shotgunning it
5) post the information and defend it revealing their own transparent agenda
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:01 pm

Zabam wrote:In my short time here,
Teflor seems to be one of the few people who post here to have any sense, plus he's got a cutting wit.

I think more folks should use Teflor as a role model.

Good job Teflor, Bravo.

I do find it funny that people post items as fact in which they
1) have no personal knowedge of the subject
2) have no formal training, education, or experience in the subject
3) are reciting other's information as fact, while the main crux of their source is based on a political/social/economic agenda with no concern if that info is correct/has manipulated data/ignores data
4) don't really care if the info is true or not and will not do the investigation to determine validity before shotgunning it
5) post the information and defend it revealing their own transparent agenda


Lol, I like the list. Did you think for a second that...

1) Teflor is an abuser of google and doesn't truely have any personal knowledge outside of most subjects he claims to know about.
2) Has no formal training inside the subject posted about here. If he did, he'd be one hell of a doctor or engineer. (Although Dalar has an engineering degree, we have a few doctors roaming the boards (not excluding non-medical doctors.), Lawyers, CS degree holders, and the list goes on. Teflor, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't hold a degree nor does he have any work experience in the medical field.
3) You are forgetting statistics work both ways and most times these studies are paid for and supported by one side or another. Take cigarettes for example. Do some research on second hand smoke and see all the lovely contradictions from diffferent "professional" studies.
4) If you can prove that the studies are true, you'd probably win some kind of Nobel Prize; however, what you're asking for or claiming to be true is an impossibility. Have you ever once looked at things such as the covering law model and how it applies to statistical relevancy? Probably not; but, since you're a proud supporter of tefacts, you'll more than likely head over to google or wiki to take a crash course and think you understand what that is or how it would apply.
5) The same could be said about you and your husband.

If I had the time, or cared about these discussions I could easily find some other statistics given by the same organizations that would counter virtually any argument that has been made here. For example: Didn't the national health council say that eggs were good, then they were bad, then they were good, then the yolk were bad, then the yolks were good. There are many other such examples of contradictions brought about by "new" studies. I could also show you the flaws in science and scientific thinking -- not to mention how the public is dissillusioned about certain scientific principles. Take Newtonian physicis for example. It's wrong; however, you wouldn't see many people saying or believing such things.

The bottom line is. You have been here a short time. You're not aware of many of the times Tefacts have been shown to be little more than out of context quotes and opinions. He argues rhetoric, and, when that fails, he takes jabs at the person rather than their opninion. In formal debate, that is a huge point deduction. He is nothing more than a lowly sophist.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:33 pm

Kifle wrote:You're not aware of many of the times Tefacts have been shown to be little more than out of context quotes and opinions. He argues rhetoric, and, when that fails, he takes jabs at the person rather than their opninion. In formal debate, that is a huge point deduction. He is nothing more than a lowly sophist.

Kifle wrote:Teflor is an abuser of google and doesn't truely have any personal knowledge outside of most subjects he claims to know about.

Kifle wrote:You're just a pile of stupid any more.

Kifle wrote:Oh man, another useless teflor post :( I'm starting to wonder if you are just as useless outside of the internet as you are in it.


1) You are the one making the personal jabs.
2) You are the one attacking the man and not the opinion.
3) You are the one who has no formal training on the subject.
4) You are not convincing anyone - especially logical thinkers and regular people.
5) Funny how you bring this up in this thread only after I've posted my conclusive argument that has shut this discussion down.

Regarding your suggestion that someone proving that DU is not excessively dangerous - Nobel would not award a prize to such insignificant research.

Regarding your suggestion that I have no formal training in the subject, I'd give you my two word phrase I'm famous for, but Shar says she's tired of seeing it.

Regarding the 'abuse of Google', Google is a search engine that helps you locate information on the web. This facilitates scientific research when proper sources are available - for instance, the World Health Organization's findings on DU, as well as other scientific bodies findings on their own research. Properly used, it's a research tool that all researchers have utilized.

Regarding statistics - independant research bodies have done their own investigation and have come to their conclusions - if you want to argue with respected research houses like RAND, be my guest, but that would make you the 'abuser of Google.'

Regarding your insinuation that there are conflicting statistics about the effects of DU on civilian populations - if you have researched the field as I have, you will find that there aren't any. RAND is an independant research organization that reviews scientific literature of all types and they do a better job of it than you do.

If you want to keep up with the insults, I will continue to turn you back. I'm sorry Kifle, but you're not getting anywhere. The personal attacks are getting old and everyone can see through them.

My personal thanks to Zabam, not for supporting me, but managing to maintain civil composure.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Sephraem
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Postby Sephraem » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:11 am

Kifle wrote:If I had the time, or cared about these discussions I could easily find some other statistics given by the same organizations that would counter virtually any argument that has been made here. For example: Didn't the national health council say that eggs were good, then they were bad, then they were good, then the yolk were bad, then the yolks were good. There are many other such examples of contradictions brought about by "new" studies.


Don't confuse scientific research with media reporting. ;)

A scientific study tells us eggs contain cholesterol and may cause the levels of cholesterol in your body to rise. The media report that eggs are bad and are going to give you a heart attack.

A scientific study tells us that a new strain of flu has killed a handful of people in Outer Mongolia. The media report that the entire world is in danger from this deadly illness and by the end of the year everyone will be dead.

Okay, I'm eggz-aggerating (ho ho), but it is true that if you're in the habit of not reading too carefully, and absorbing opinion along with fact, you'll find yourself frequently misinformed by most news sources. I am continually surprised by some newspapers' ability to tell a story as fact, then give a final paragraph which puts the entire article in context, and contradicts everything up to that point.
If you love something, let it go; especially if you love fireworks.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:21 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Kifle wrote:You're not aware of many of the times Tefacts have been shown to be little more than out of context quotes and opinions. He argues rhetoric, and, when that fails, he takes jabs at the person rather than their opninion. In formal debate, that is a huge point deduction. He is nothing more than a lowly sophist.

Kifle wrote:Teflor is an abuser of google and doesn't truely have any personal knowledge outside of most subjects he claims to know about.

Kifle wrote:You're just a pile of stupid any more.

Kifle wrote:Oh man, another useless teflor post :( I'm starting to wonder if you are just as useless outside of the internet as you are in it.


1) You are the one making the personal jabs.
2) You are the one attacking the man and not the opinion.
3) You are the one who has no formal training on the subject.
4) You are not convincing anyone - especially logical thinkers and regular people.
5) Funny how you bring this up in this thread only after I've posted my conclusive argument that has shut this discussion down.

Regarding your suggestion that someone proving that DU is not excessively dangerous - Nobel would not award a prize to such insignificant research.

Regarding your suggestion that I have no formal training in the subject, I'd give you my two word phrase I'm famous for, but Shar says she's tired of seeing it.

Regarding the 'abuse of Google', Google is a search engine that helps you locate information on the web. This facilitates scientific research when proper sources are available - for instance, the World Health Organization's findings on DU, as well as other scientific bodies findings on their own research. Properly used, it's a research tool that all researchers have utilized.

Regarding statistics - independant research bodies have done their own investigation and have come to their conclusions - if you want to argue with respected research houses like RAND, be my guest, but that would make you the 'abuser of Google.'

Regarding your insinuation that there are conflicting statistics about the effects of DU on civilian populations - if you have researched the field as I have, you will find that there aren't any. RAND is an independant research organization that reviews scientific literature of all types and they do a better job of it than you do.

If you want to keep up with the insults, I will continue to turn you back. I'm sorry Kifle, but you're not getting anywhere. The personal attacks are getting old and everyone can see through them.

My personal thanks to Zabam, not for supporting me, but managing to maintain civil composure.


I never said anything about DU. Not sure where you got that. Also, when I brought up the Nobel Prize, it was in a completely different context than what you're trying to twist my words into. What I said was,"If you can prove that the studies are true, you'd probably win some kind of Nobel Prize," meaning you can't prove science is true. Meaning, while they may think DU, or any other material out there, is non-threatening (or anything else for that matter), is not a matter of fact. It can't be proven with the methods employed by scientists or any other researcher out there.

You have formal training in toxicology, advanced genetics, etc.? Granted it was an assumption, but am I wrong?

By "abusing google" I was meaning that you google things then pawn it off as if you had already known them. Basically, you try to make yourself out to be a lot more knowledgable than you really are. Put more precisely, you plagiarize constantly. I'm sure if we spoke in person, you'd be quite a bit less knowledgable on many subjects than you would like to portray here on the BBS.

As far as your defense of statistics and "independant research" agencies. You tell me one man or group of people who have been able to eliminate bias in their experiments and research and I'll never post on this board again. Now, if you'd look at my example of second-hand smoke, you will see what I'm talking about. One researcher will say that the statistics point to a causation while another will point out only a small correlation between the smoke and cancer. This is a major point that plagues most statistics based information.
Last edited by Kifle on Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:32 am

Sephraem wrote:
Kifle wrote:If I had the time, or cared about these discussions I could easily find some other statistics given by the same organizations that would counter virtually any argument that has been made here. For example: Didn't the national health council say that eggs were good, then they were bad, then they were good, then the yolk were bad, then the yolks were good. There are many other such examples of contradictions brought about by "new" studies.


Don't confuse scientific research with media reporting. ;)

A scientific study tells us eggs contain cholesterol and may cause the levels of cholesterol in your body to rise. The media report that eggs are bad and are going to give you a heart attack.

A scientific study tells us that a new strain of flu has killed a handful of people in Outer Mongolia. The media report that the entire world is in danger from this deadly illness and by the end of the year everyone will be dead.

Okay, I'm eggz-aggerating (ho ho), but it is true that if you're in the habit of not reading too carefully, and absorbing opinion along with fact, you'll find yourself frequently misinformed by most news sources. I am continually surprised by some newspapers' ability to tell a story as fact, then give a final paragraph which puts the entire article in context, and contradicts everything up to that point.


If you consider the WHO the CDC and other "reputable" research organizations as the media, then sure, I guess. I don't believe it is the media that specifies the amount of eggs (or any other specific food or food type) we are to eat per serving, day, week, etc. They do report it from time to time though.

At one point they said that eating such and such amount of eggs was unhealthy and lead to heart disease. Then they were saying that the same amount of eggs didn't raise LDL. Some researchers then said eggs were great for your memory. This is actually a very famous example and I'm sure those old enough more than likely remember it as well. You made one hell of a poor assumption and wasted your time writing a lengthy reply. Don't assume I get my information from daily doses of Fox News and CNN.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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Postby daggaz » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:17 pm

Hmm... I studied engineering physics for four years before dropping out and travelling around the world, now ive switched over to Nanotechnology and have been studying for 3 years on that.. (someday i'll finish).

Not saying I'm an expert, but DU is a hot subject and we repeatedly come across PhD expert articles written on it, especially in regards to DU nanoparticles, which is what you get when you use it in munitions. Im busy for the holidays, but I'll dig up some of the articles off our machine later this week and post those if you like. But dont go around flaming me for being some kind of idiot who just posts political agendas. I might have a political holding, but you will be surprised to learn truly exactly what it is, and first and foremost Im scientific in my thinking.

The gist of it is, organisations linked to Nato or the US government (The people making it, using it, and selling DU weapons systems) tend to say its not that harmful (with very shortterm research as a basis) while private doctors and physists claim the exact opposite. Most physicists would just tell you you are crazy to trust it, based simply on sound theory and not needing further studies. The doctors actually correlate data from civilians in areas of use (Iraq and the Balkans, test areas in the states such as in Nevada) and military personal, looking for high incidences of nastiness. They find it, every time.

And as usual, the Pentagon discounts it, and refuses to pay out benefits to the sick and dying soldiers involved. Look, these guys sprayed us with Agent Orange (not to mention a whole country and countless thousands of its citizens) all the way claiming it was safe and denying any links to all the problems it caused. It took years before they finally had to fess up in the face of overwhelming long term studies, and pay for disabilities.

Those long-term studies are only now coming to light, as it is only now where we have significant exposed populations from more than ten years ago. Like I said, I'll post some in the next week or so.
Last edited by daggaz on Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby daggaz » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:28 pm

Oh, these are the same guys who told our WHOLE country that nuclear radiaton was perfectly safe in the fifties, feeding us daydreams of every kind of civilian use (like atomic-rocket packs to get to work and back) while all the while they knew (cuz the physicists knew) that it was extremely dangerous to all life forms.

Just duck n cover, guys. Duck, 'n cover.

I just get tired of people jumping on me for being 'a leftwing anti-miliary hippy,' sometimes they even go as far to say I'm anti-american (yeah, that fits well with freedom of thought and expression) and even a supporter of terrorists. Whatever.. some of you are so hyped up with pride and the false sense that the military is purely good and never lies and anybody who opposes any part of it is opposed to the whole thing and must be an enemy... its foolish, and you will vehemently deny any story or research that is contrary while swallowing anything that goes your way. Talk about pride. Foolish pride.

Me, I'm just skeptical of pretty much everything at first, and demand proof or at least overwhelming coincidental evidence before I hand my trust out to anyone, or anything.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:41 pm

Skepticism is healthy, and should be commended.

I just wouldn't accuse the US government of using WMD on their troops in order to be skeptical.
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teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:38 pm

Kifle wrote:By "abusing google" I was meaning that you google things then pawn it off as if you had already known them. Basically, you try to make yourself out to be a lot more knowledgable than you really are. Put more precisely, you plagiarize constantly. I'm sure if we spoke in person, you'd be quite a bit less knowledgable on many subjects than you would like to portray here on the BBS.


And like I've said before - you're wrong. Nor would utilizing other people's research be anything improper as that IS researching scientific literature.

I also attribute all of my sources - so your accusation is false as well.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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