Do you think the mud should be Harder or Easier, and why?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

It's a simple question. So which?

Harder
9
39%
Easier
3
13%
Harder after 20th
11
48%
 
Total votes: 23
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Do you think the mud should be Harder or Easier, and why?

Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:46 pm

Harder after 20th

At its greatest player numbers, the MUD was it's hardest to play. There was direct competition then too with so many numerous MUDs and more springing up. Easy EXP zones made the mud repeditive and easy, which made it boring.

When a game becomes 'chimp simple' and anyone can beat it in a matter of weeks, what's left?
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:26 am

Elites exp was easy as hell and people still played back then.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:45 am

8)

True dat, Dalar. I was 15 years old, didn't have a clue where anything was and easily got to level 50 with the xp in Waterdeep.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Dalar wrote:Elites exp was easy as hell and people still played back then.


I agree. There was easy Exp. And there was also BG elite exp for evils more then anyone else it seemed. But then tower wasn't as easy, it was a little harder, not a lot but a little. Then after that, what did we have? A mob here or there that people would camp on like Korbin south of Ghore, or Ajax and the BS mobs, well unless a group of 5-8 went to Jot and did the grid to get DS-like exp for back then. Walking jot then wasn't exactly a robot-able cake walk, and still isn't.

Wait, are we forgetting that BG elites were made !exp-able before the induction of Ship and DS? How come WD elites aren't done anymore either? Didn't they suffer a similar fate at one point?

And when these very few exp spots on prime were taken, what were players forced to do with the massively larger pbase at the time? They had to find their exp out in zones. They had to venture out and explore. They had to find friends and group with them to get out there and enjoy the game.

If you don't agree with any of what I just said, then you atleast have to admit the exp was harder back then because of simple numbers. 4 easy Exp areas with 500+ players vs 4+ easy Exp zones with 50+ players.


Sure, there was some easy aspects back then, but they were far and few. Now it's the norm. I want exp to be hard again. I mean I want it to be engaging. Make me want to play and group with others, not log off and do something more engaging like watching grass grow.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:35 pm

Exp has always been mind numbingly easy. Zones were a lot harder. Particularly CR's and the real risk one took of losing their eq permanently. Newly introduced classes and skills have taken most of the risk out of zoning.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:39 pm

Folur's crew did elite exp with 6-8 man with 2 rangers. We were pulling in more exp than DS 3 man does now. There's nothing wrong with it at all. I think we were pulling 20% a level or something ridiculous.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:58 pm

Justice was implemented as a system designed to prevent players from doing exp in hometowns. The fix didn't fit the problem, and hometown exp was nerfed immensely anyway.

Exp has never really been hard. Tower was never hard... you had the broom, an unclassed mob who hit like a girl and had a million hit points. You had the Golden Warrior, who was fairly tough. The two Priests were soloable by a mid-40s Ranger, so that speaks volumes. And the guards were either PWB half an hour into the wipe or killed as an afterthought. Nothing in there was challenging in the slightest.

Wizzie exp was "hard" because they'd shield after a missed bash or a laggy glance. Having an Enchanter turned "hard" into "globe and it's easy."

Commoners, shady smugglers, battle mercs, cat burglars, dockies, and wall elites are all the same, and are all easy. Maybe one bashes and one backstabs, but they're all more or less "sacks of experience" that could be killed repeatedly with a competant group with no chance of danger or wipe.

When has exp ever been challenging?

Now, ZONES have gotten easier, with the implementation of Illusionists, the upgrade to Rogue sneakiness, and additional defensive spells like blur and dragonscales. Newer zones are much harder than zones like Jot and Vault, out of necessity to deal with these upgraded abilities.

But experience? Yawn.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:36 pm

You know.. I thought I had expressed myself in a way people would understand the point I was making. I thought I had said that I agreed that there was easy exp locations. Did I not say that? Or am I just imagining it?

I thought you guys had picked up on the fact that with 10 times the number of players THEN as compared to NOW, getting those few easy exp locations wasn't always a possibility made available to players. I thought you guys could deduce from that that this forced players more often then not to find exp elsewhere outside the established easy exp areas, which as a result made getting exp slightly more difficult.

I guess I gave some of you too much credit, because apparently the last 3 of you to post didn't read, or I guess understand, a word I just said.


So Let me try this again:

-YES, there has always been some form of easy EXP for all levels, but now there is more of it available to a larger percentage of the player base.
-NO, it wasn't always available to every person because of the massively bigger player base which forced many players to find EXP outside the established 'easy' exp locations.
-Because 'easy' exp wasn't always available to everyone, it forced players into more difficult areas for EXP.
-Because not everyone was doing 'easy' EXP locations all the time, but more difficult locations, EXP for the average player was more difficult.

Am I getting thru? Do you understand my point?


Lemme try the direct approach.

Ragorn,

Do Commoners, shady smugglers, battle mercs, cat burglars, dockies give the same exp rewards as level 50 DS mobs? Did you used to do WD elites regularly at level 20's then like people do with DS now? No you didn't. Why? Because the exp for elites was too hard? No, because those areas were populated with higher levels doing it. You were forced to do shadys and such because of player numbers. You got less exp for your rewards. It was more time consuming for you. It was harder cuz it took longer and if you got too big of a group to do them, your exp was next to nil, which meant it took even longer, which meant it was even harder to get it.

Without flee-out pleveling, who ever even heard of people getting 50th in less then a week back then if Exp was always so 'easy'.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:19 pm

Trogar went from 1 to 50 in one weekend back then on wall-elites. It was something capable of happening, but you needed to know the right people to get it done because there were so many people playing.

The simple fact is, more people played back then because it was the beginning of the MMORPG. The success of games like Final Fantasy in the early 90's paved the way for a game like toril to dominate. When other options came about, i.e. Quake, Counterstrike etc. etc. The pbase dropped, and continues to drop as other options become available. The simple fact is, without new content, new things to do and a reason to keep coming back, people will move on and find something better to do.

Exp has come to the point of being easy enough so that 20 or so players began to dominate all zoning groups because they all had alts that could fill a role. New players never got to go zoning because of it, and I'm sure many of them got tired and left. I'm not the only one who would advocate some sort of pwipe at this point in the game. Hopefully after some major coding goes in that makes players want to stay again.

There should never have been an "exp" zone created for anyone past level 35. Look at the best zones for exp, they all share the same traits. Fairly fast pop-time contingent on how long it takes to clear 1 pop, mobs that are sentinel or have different names so there is no mistargetting, casting mobs that are easily bashable, no hunting mobs etc. These zones teach NOTHING to anyone other than how to sit in a zone, wait for a group to come by and beg them to take you to because you are too f****** lazy to go out and get your own group together. It also doesn't help that mobs in DS and ship were given a bonus to their exp(WTF for?!).

Areas tried to fix a problem that was code based. That is where you started on this journey of things getting way out of whack. The tables, trophy and exp gain should have been fixed long ago, before zones had to be written to appease the whining masses that getting 50 was too hard.

This isn't a knock on the staff or anyone else, it's just something that happened.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:12 pm

Easier or harder for whom? I hate to say it, but any changes you will make will not effect players in the same manner.
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Postby Gizep » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:32 pm

From a guy who's played Sojourn 1, 2, 3 and most of the toril instances in between, and only just recently got my first 50th, I think somebody's nuts. It's not how easy the exp is man, it's who helps you, bottom line. If you want to get level 50 in a weekend, more power to ya, glad you got the time to do that.

I like toril cuz I can casually play it without the hassle of being in a super uber everquest guild raiding 8 hours a night. I don't care if im level 10 or level 50, i make new friends daily, and that's what's important to me.

If I wanted uber, i'd play everquest thanks, click my magelo.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:40 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Easier or harder for whom? I hate to say it, but any changes you will make will not effect players in the same manner.


That's what the difference means in the vote Tef. Harder means for everyone. Harder after 20th means for !noobs basically.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:56 am

Llaaldara wrote:You know.. I thought I had expressed myself in a way people would understand the point I was making. I thought I had said that I agreed that there was easy exp locations. Did I not say that? Or am I just imagining it?


I understand your point. You're just wrong.

Or maybe you don't understand the difference between "hard" and "time-consuming." Experience is FASTER now, thanks to DS. It isn't easier. It isn't any easier to kill a warrior mob now than it was when you could put 4 perma-haste Monks on the job. Maybe doesn't take as long to level now as it did then, but don't try to say that repeatedly killing warrior mobs with a cleric and stoner behind you was ever "hard."
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Postby Yarash » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:53 am

When asked if they would like the game to be more challenging, probably most players would say yes. When it comes to actually making specific changes to make the game harder, the same people, if affected, would probably complain...

The trend recently has been people asking for the game to be made easier and easier (or in other words "more convenient").

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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:10 pm

Even if the mud was made harder, there'll always be SOMEONE around browbeating the rest of the mud for the fact that it's not "hard enough."
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ruxur » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:14 pm

sigh, Lahgen, go get beat up somemore. Dont make the rest of the world suffer for your insecurity.

I say this because of your using the term "brow beating" when certian people declare that the mud is too easy, it is not a direct attack on your skills as a player.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:51 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:You know.. I thought I had expressed myself in a way people would understand the point I was making. I thought I had said that I agreed that there was easy exp locations. Did I not say that? Or am I just imagining it?


I understand your point. You're just wrong.

Or maybe you don't understand the difference between "hard" and "time-consuming." Experience is FASTER now, thanks to DS. It isn't easier. It isn't any easier to kill a warrior mob now than it was when you could put 4 perma-haste Monks on the job. Maybe doesn't take as long to level now as it did then, but don't try to say that repeatedly killing warrior mobs with a cleric and stoner behind you was ever "hard."


You do realize you are talking about exp in designated exp locations/mobs and I’m not?

Understand the difference?

Here, imagine if you will the MUD right now but with no DS, Ship, Smoke, Tower, Elites, Wizards, etc. No designated exp zones/mobs/areas. This is the situation that was often encountered in the past when the designated exp locations were in use/filled up/taken already because of the vastly larger player base.

So, Yes or no, would it be harder to exp? Would doing exp not be harder in this situation? Y/N?

Before, when players wanted to get DS-like sweetly rich exp, we had to form small Jot Grid/Gith groups. Are you saying that doing Jot Grid is just as easy as doing DS exp?

That’s my comparison, and that’s what I’m talking about. Yes or no?



Now point 2, you also want to say that “time-consuming” != increased difficulty. That’s definitely an opinion that belongs to you and not me. I feel duration is a factor of difficulty to a degree, but I doubt I’m going to change your mind on the subject, so I’m not going to bother. If I went to company A and it took me a year to get a raise, and then went to company B and it took me 1 week, I’d feel it was harder to get a raise from company A. You apparently feel different about that, and that’s your right, but I just see it differently. Since it’s perspective based on opinion I fail to see how either of us can be right or wrong on the matter. So it’s perhaps pointless to debate it

But anyways, we were talking about how I was wrong about something I wasn’t even talking about. So you were saying?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:20 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Easier or harder for whom? I hate to say it, but any changes you will make will not effect players in the same manner.


That's what the difference means in the vote Tef. Harder means for everyone. Harder after 20th means for !noobs basically.


Yes, BUT, what kind of difference would actually be harder for everybody anywhere near an even sense? I don't think such a thing exists.
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Postby Kallinar » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:41 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Easier or harder for whom? I hate to say it, but any changes you will make will not effect players in the same manner.


That's what the difference means in the vote Tef. Harder means for everyone. Harder after 20th means for !noobs basically.


Yes, BUT, what kind of difference would actually be harder for everybody anywhere near an even sense? I don't think such a thing exists.


Well someone posted the idea of making experience gain be based on your actual skill usage. That would be fair across the board for everyone IMHO. You wouldn't see powerlevling happen at such a massive rate heh.
Tagging along in DS or getting tank flee-out exp wouldn't be so prevelant then.
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Postby Lahgen » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:59 am

Ruxur wrote:sigh, Lahgen, go get beat up somemore. Dont make the rest of the world suffer for your insecurity.

I say this because of your using the term "brow beating" when certian people declare that the mud is too easy, it is not a direct attack on your skills as a player.


You are correct, of course. I have a way of reading the worst possible interpretation into what people say.

So, even if it is not their conscious intent to attack my skills, to me that is what they are essentially doing.

To me, "the mud is too easy" is the same as "you don't have the right to be proud of what you have attained so far because invokers are too spanky/sneakhide makes crs too easy/there's no real risk of permanent gear loss/in my day it took years to get 50/etc."

So, perhaps I'm wrong. But that is why I said what I did.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:12 am

whee
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:15 am

Kallinar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Easier or harder for whom? I hate to say it, but any changes you will make will not effect players in the same manner.


That's what the difference means in the vote Tef. Harder means for everyone. Harder after 20th means for !noobs basically.


Yes, BUT, what kind of difference would actually be harder for everybody anywhere near an even sense? I don't think such a thing exists.


Well someone posted the idea of making experience gain be based on your actual skill usage. That would be fair across the board for everyone IMHO. You wouldn't see powerlevling happen at such a massive rate heh.
Tagging along in DS or getting tank flee-out exp wouldn't be so prevelant then.


This would make the game much more difficult for people who wish to have several different types of characters, and much less (more) difficult for those who only wish to work on one character.
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Postby Lahgen » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:46 pm

In addition, it would be harder to go and correct a character with bad stats once you get it to 50.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:43 pm

I think xp should be easier. There's no fun in xp'g as it is. All the fun is when you zone like in izans when 50 mobs descend on you at once. Fun isn't nearly falling asleep while xp'g somewhere.

Stuff that should be harder is anti-twinking measures in general. Nothing sucks quite like doing a group of mobs, then finding out some turdburglar rogue already stole what you were after.
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Postby selerial » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:22 pm

I've always held the belief that the combat system in this game is relatively slow, but it just struck me that what I complain about in that regard is probably the same thing that other people are saying when they say that xp is boring.

By analogy, consider this. A player has 10hps and can hit for 3 damage. A mob has 100hps and can hit for 2 damage. The puzzle to be worked out here is how to do 100hps of damage to the mob before it can deal 10 damage to you. This happens via things like healing and stoning, ie, preventing some of the 2 damage, or restoring some of your 10hps. Then, once the mob is dead, you have to do it again for, say, 400 mobs, before you level. So you're basically fighting an uphill battle each fight for 400 fights to level.

By contrast, say you had to kill 4000 mobs, but you still had healing and stoning, and they only had 10hps. I'm not going to work out the ratios here because I'm too lazy to do math, but I think what you'd find is that now you're fighting on a more even level, and even though you've got to kill way more mobs, it's no longer excecuting a D-day invasion on each mob just to kill it.

IMO, this is probably one of the largest failures of MMORPGs, which are based off of the Sojourn model.. the playing field is never level between the player and the mobs. This makes sense for something like bosses, but, for instance, the "trash mobs" in MC all have 100k+ hps, which essentially equates to a whole bunch of players trying to paper cut a mob to death while it's actually trying to kill the players.
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Postby Botef » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:16 pm

selerial wrote:I've always held the belief that the combat system in this game is relatively slow, but it just struck me that what I complain about in that regard is probably the same thing that other people are saying when they say that xp is boring.

By analogy, consider this. A player has 10hps and can hit for 3 damage. A mob has 100hps and can hit for 2 damage. The puzzle to be worked out here is how to do 100hps of damage to the mob before it can deal 10 damage to you. This happens via things like healing and stoning, ie, preventing some of the 2 damage, or restoring some of your 10hps. Then, once the mob is dead, you have to do it again for, say, 400 mobs, before you level. So you're basically fighting an uphill battle each fight for 400 fights to level.

By contrast, say you had to kill 4000 mobs, but you still had healing and stoning, and they only had 10hps. I'm not going to work out the ratios here because I'm too lazy to do math, but I think what you'd find is that now you're fighting on a more even level, and even though you've got to kill way more mobs, it's no longer excecuting a D-day invasion on each mob just to kill it.

IMO, this is probably one of the largest failures of MMORPGs, which are based off of the Sojourn model.. the playing field is never level between the player and the mobs. This makes sense for something like bosses, but, for instance, the "trash mobs" in MC all have 100k+ hps, which essentially equates to a whole bunch of players trying to paper cut a mob to death while it's actually trying to kill the players.


Very well said.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:22 pm

Players can solo 4000 mobs that are on even footing with themselves. They cannot solo 400 uphill battles. Since one of Toril's main goals is to promote grouping and discourage soloing, you're not likely to see a change any time soon.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:08 am

Ragorn wrote:Players can solo 4000 mobs that are on even footing with themselves. They cannot solo 400 uphill battles. Since one of Toril's main goals is to promote grouping and discourage soloing, you're not likely to see a change any time soon.


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