No more Danish Embassy :x

[muma]

I figure you guys know the news about the muslims protesting in gaza strip and then burning down the danish embassy in lebanon cause some guy posted cartoons in a newspaper in denmark that were offensive to the muslims. well here is the link so you can see them too. prolly already have, you geeks.

http://cartoonjihad.com/images/mo_cartoons.jpg

[Ashiwi]

So which one was supposed to be so offensive it rated the burning of an embassy? Am I missing something?

[teflor the ranger]

Attacking an entire nation for the actions of one newspaper.

Some days it seems as if they hate our freedoms.

[moritheil]

So which one was supposed to be so offensive it rated the burning of an embassy? Am I missing something?

There's a reason that their Prophet is always depicted as faceless and surrounded by a large flame. Essentially, depiction of the human form is considered idolatry by Islam (as I understand it.) For someone to do so with the Prophet only compounds the severity of the insult by making it blasphemy as well.

I'm pretty sure that our largely not comprehending their rage is fundamentally what this is about.

[Dalar]

well here is the link so you can see them too. prolly already have, you geeks.

http://cartoonjihad.com/images/mo_cartoons.jpg

might I add that you go :D:D::DD:D:D:D:D:D:D and dated Iaiken.

[moritheil]

well here is the link so you can see them too. prolly already have, you geeks.

http://cartoonjihad.com/images/mo_cartoons.jpg

might I add that you go :D:D::DD:D:D:D:D:D:D and dated Iaiken.

Four posts on a serious issue before the personal insults started. Oh well, it was a noble effort.

[Xisiqomelir]

I'm pretty sure that our largely not comprehending their rage is fundamentally what this is about.

What this is fundamentally about is that theocracy cannot even co-exist peacefully with SECULARISM, let alone free society.

Those cartoons are not an "attack" on Islam. People outside the religion are simply expressing their freedom to think it's ridiculous.

[Dalar]

well here is the link so you can see them too. prolly already have, you geeks.

http://cartoonjihad.com/images/mo_cartoons.jpg

might I add that you go :D:D::DD:D:D:D:D:D:D and dated Iaiken.

Four posts on a serious issue before the personal insults started. Oh well, it was a noble effort.

what's there to discuss? some guy made fun of a race that's known to do extremely violent things and they did something violent. you'll care for maybe a second and then go off on your merry way. it's like discussing honor killings after the 20th one happened. hey look, the sky is blue.

[Disoputlip]

Since I'm a dane then I find this story interesting.

It is mainly the drawing with Muhammed with bomb in the turban that the muslims are reacting to, the feel it shows they are an agressive people.

No rules of the koran are violated though. Since the koran only really matters for muslims. (just like a non-muslim can eat pork). This is only a question about respect for a religion.

The big issue is that they want our prime minister to apologise for the drawing, but we have freedom of speach, so he can't dictate what a newspaper writes. Some muslims think thats a lie, and therefore think it's a complot.

(It is true, a danish minister has no juristriction over a newspaper, whatsoever)

[Corth]

I don't see the jews burning buildings and killing people as a result of the numerous examples of <a href="http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm">anti-semetic cartoons</a> published in the arab world on a regular basis. Rather, when Israel blows things up or kills people, they are usually justified in doing so. Like, for instance, they will kill someone (with minimal collateral damage) who had indiscriminately blown up a bus full of civilians. Mere blaspheme has not yet resulted in a lethal response to date.

It might not be politically correct to say it, but one group/religion/culture is civilized, and the other is barbaric.


Corth

[teflor the ranger]

I don't see the jews burning buildings and killing people as a result of the numerous examples of <a href="http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm">anti-semetic cartoons</a> published in the arab world on a regular basis. Rather, when Israel blows things up or kills people, they are usually justified in doing so. Like, for instance, they will kill someone (with minimal collateral damage) who had indiscriminately blown up a bus full of civilians. Mere blaspheme has not yet resulted in a lethal response to date.

It might not be politically correct to say it, but one group/religion/culture is civilized, and the other is barbaric.


Corth

They hate our freedoms.

[Thilindel]

They sure the hell overreact. It's amazing how they rationalize stuff in KILLING and destroying stuff just over their 'honor' ..whatever that is

[ssar]

there's a use for guns and terrorists.. oh, wait..

[muma]

i forgot to mention that some of the muslims are enraged at the extreme muslims doing this because it is making all muslims look bad. and i think they had an anti-freak-out-at-the-cartoons protest too, somewhere, heh

[Corth]

i forgot to mention that some of the muslims are enraged at the extreme muslims doing this because it is making all muslims look bad. and i think they had an anti-freak-out-at-the-cartoons protest too, somewhere, heh

I wouldn't be surprised if many muslims are ticked off that they are being made to look bad. I just don't see very many of them speaking out about it. I'm guessing that for the most part they are scared to. Last thing you need is a fatwah issued by some obscure 'cleric' ordering the faithful to stone you and your family to death.

[malakwee]

First and foremost I am a muslim. There :P

Ok pls allow me to clarify certain things before i place in the justifications.

Islam does not condone violence unless the circumstance requires violence... (I am sure this will raise many an eyebrow) however violence is always the last option under Islam, and i believe under the teaching of all other religions

Muslims are raised with ingrained belief that our prophet Muhammmad is the closest there ever will be to a perfect human being, not only thru consistent preaching from youth, but through our own observation of his life history and our holy book.

In short The Quran is the word of our god and Muhammad's life is the translation of the Quran. Muslims will never stop loving our prophet, not only because it is ingrained from young age, but we have people to these days who 'shadows' how he has been depicted, and just witnessing that 'shadow' of how the prophet could be, make many muslims long to see, as is our belief, the prophet muhammad in the after life, and be loved by him.

So to insult our prophet in such a way is to close to insulting another person's mother of being a whore publically. Our prophet very well loved because of him being a compassionate soul, not for him being a terrorists.

Thank you

[malakwee]

However (damn i did not finish) the way the matter is handled in those countries are too violent for any justification, and I as a muslim condemn it utterly.

[Corth]

Yes, the Religion of Peace (tm) does not condone violence. Somehow though, people find support in it for blowing up innocent women and children...

[Shevarash]

We will never surrender to human-animal hybrids!!!

[rylan]

Its hypocrisy at its worst.
Its OK for the Muslims to say whatever they want about other religions and other people (such as behead them, kill them, die die die die), but if anything is said about them, they freak out. Also, this BS about it being against their law to draw/print pictures of Mohammad is even more hypocrisy, because they use pictures of Mohammad all over the place.

Its a cartoon, and its being used as an excuse to kill and destroy. They don't necessarily hate our freedoms, they hate that we aren't Muslim.

[rylan]

However (damn i did not finish) the way the matter is handled in those countries are too violent for any justification, and I as a muslim condemn it utterly.

I commend you for that. Honestly, you're the first muslim that I've seen condemn the violence.

[Zabam]

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.....Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith."

Winston Churchill

[Corth]

Churchill (and other politicians of the age including Hitler) often blamed the poverty and uncivilized habits of non-western civilizations on inferior genetics. Interestingly enough, when he wrote the passage quoted above as a young man in 1899, he blamed the religion/culture rather than the blood. I would be curious whether he still thought, after 1940, that 'no stronger retrograde force exists in the world.'

[avak]

How can anyone make generalizations about a religion with an estimated 1.7 billion members?

As if killing/violence/hypocrisy/and general barbarism in the name of one's religion is some kind of new and unique phenomenon.

Germans killed Jews, whites had slaves, missionaries spread small pox, um the Crusades, Rwandan genocide, child molesting Catholic priests...

Jesus, some of you people can be so provincial sometimes.

[Corth]

Its very easy to make a generalization. You simply make an observation, and then form a conclusion based upon experience. Human beings cannot function without reducing their observations into categories. You look at a piece of furniture that you never have seen before, and yet, you inherently know based upon its shape that it is made to be sit on. You have placed it in the category of 'chairs'.

There is nothing wrong with making generalizations about religions, cutlures and nationalities. More often than not, such generalizations are correct. I may be generalizing that Italians are good artists, or Germans are good engineers, or that Asians are good at math, and in an individual case it may be incorrect, but generally, what I just said is absolutely true. I don't think Italians are born more artistic than others, that germans are better engineers because of the blood coarsing through their veins, or that Asians are genetically smarter than the rest of us. Imho, we are all born equal, and then corrupted by our religion, parents, culture, teachers etc, in different ways.

If a pattern emerges which leads to a legitimate generalization, there is no reason we shouldn't speak it out loud. Interestingly, I do not see Avak attempting to refute the generalization that is implied in this thread, which is that muslims are more prone to irrational violent behavior than other religious groups. Rather, Avak is trying to refute the notion that such generalizations can and should be made. Thats just a politically correct cop out. They have to be made because human beings cannot function without doing so.



Corth

[Corth]

In my profession, it is well known that if you are representing a plaintiff in a personal injury matter, you want as many black people as possible on your jury. I practice in the NYC metropolitan area. We have mostly white juries in Nassau County (long island), and predominantly black juries in the Bronx. Guess where you are more likely to get a better settlement offer from the Defendant's insurance company.

The generalization is that black people are more likely to find in favor of a plaintiff, and further, are more likely to issue a large monetary award. This generalization, while certainly not always true, is usually true. The truth of the generalization can be proved by simply comparing settlements in the Bronx to those in Nassau County where you have similar facts. Why, if there is no truth to the generalization, do the insurance companies approve such higher settlements in black jurisdictions? The answer, of course, is that the generalization is true.

Interestingly enough, Avak is making quite a whopper of a generalization. His generalization is that you cannot make conclusions, generally, about religions, nationalities, ethnic groups, etc. I guess this works well for politically correct public consumption. But people who need to live and work in this world will find that they are rewarded by making accurate generalizations, regardless of the subject matter.

Germans are GENERALLY (but not always) good engineers, Italians are GENERALLY (but not always) good artists. Asians are GENERALLY (but not always) good at math. Black people GENERALLY (but not always) find in favor of plaintiffs. Muslims are GENERALLY (but not always) more likely to commit irrational acts of violence. Shrug.

[Corth]

A note on root causes.

Often times it is tacitly acknowledged by their supporters that Muslims are more prone towards comitting irrational acts of violence than non-Muslims. However, this will be justified on the basis that are certain root causes which influence their behavior. They are impoverished. They are occupied by Western civilizations. They have no hope. Etc.

There is a potential root cause for why black juries are more likely to find in favor of a personal injury plaintiff. Black people are much more likely than the populace as a whole to be members of the democratic party. Interestingly enough, plaintiff attorneys will always look for liberals on their juries. Conservatives are the kiss of death in that field.

So maybe the root cause of the benefit of black juries is that they are more liberal relative to the rest of the population, rather than that they are blacker than the rest of the population. That makes a lot of sense to me. But it doesn't change the fact that I want black people on my jury.

Likewise, irrational Islamic violence may very well be a result of the root causes that people often use to justify it. However, it does not change the fact that if you are looking to prevent a plane hijacking, you should probably search most of the young muslim male passengers.

[Zabam]

I posted the quote as it seemed to sum up the general ideas from the previous member's comments. In essence, my aim was to show a century old perspective on this issue. Maybe times change, maybe they don't . There does seem to be a contining theme from outsiders looking in at this situation since the 7th century (begining of Islam) though.

Should the response to cartoons take anyone by surprise?

The Norm? Repressed populations need an outlet for their frustrations. From a long time ago, heavy-handed ruling entities realized its better that the outlet be directed away from them and the sheet-holes their population live in.

[teflor the ranger]

We will never surrender to human-animal hybrids!!!

Stop playin' shev. We all know you're half mongoose.

[teflor the ranger]

Its a cartoon, and its being used as an excuse to kill and destroy. They don't necessarily hate our freedoms, they hate that we aren't Muslim.

The problem with that Rylan is that muslims happily bomb other muslims when they dare to get their own opinion.

They really do hate our freedoms, and if the violent reaction to a nation and a people over the actions of one newspaper doesn't make it clear...

[teflor the ranger]

How can anyone make generalizations about a religion with an estimated 1.7 billion members?

Avak, this is not at all hard.

We all know that catholic priests hold a torch for little boys that hold candles, suicide bombers are muslim extremists that hate our freedoms, and jewish wa'r'shingtonians eat bagels.

The christians are all crusaders of course (so say the muslims) and really, why ask the question?

[teflor the ranger]

Muslims are GENERALLY (but not always) more likely to commit irrational acts of violence.

CNN has been telling us that for years.

[avak]

Corth, I agree with much of your last posts. Yes, generalizations are not only necessary, but often firmly grounded in some truth. And no, the "truth" is not always fair nor politically correct.

My contention really came from the scale of the generalization. I was originally responding (mostly) to an earlier comment you had made: "one group/religion/culture is civilized, and the other is barbaric." My point is that making such a sweeping blanket statement about 1.7 billion people is way past the point of diminishing returns in terms of the decided usefulness any generalization may provide.

Anyway, I think your quote below illustrates my point somewhat. In order to make an even remotely effective generalization you had to cut the sample down 90%.

if you are looking to prevent a plane hijacking, you should probably search most of the young muslim male passengers.

In addition, there are very good reasons why, as a society, we prohibit profiling based on things such as race....even though it could very well result in "more effective" law enforcement.

[Corth]

Point taken, Avak.

[Kifle]

In addition, there are very good reasons why, as a society, we prohibit profiling based on things such as race....even though it could very well result in "more effective" law enforcement.

Not attempting to be argumentative, but is this statement pointing to the time before or after the japanese internment camps during WWII?

[malakwee]

I do feel sad that my fellow muslims are being profiled as being "the likely sort to carry out irrational violence', when a large majority of us are peace loving people.

But then there is a saying among that one sin erases a hundred good deeds... and the action of one 'muslim' results in all muslims being generalized in such a manner... Now, THAT is reality.

What I would like for everyone to try to do is try to have an open mind, and try to understand... we are small individually, true, and our mind may not be able to encompass to understand everything there is around us. However, if we chose to, i believe we are capable of achieving that understanding.

A person dont simply blow themselves up just so that they can have fun... that action of theirs is not a joke... there must be a reason... and unless we are able to understand the reason for them doing what they are doing, i dont think it is ever gonna end.

All the counter intelligence and strategy by the super powers to stop terrorism so far from what i do understand only targets at eliminating the source of aggression, which, in most cases these days relate to osama... however even if they do kill or capture osama, that is just one 'osama' less. The problem is still not resolved. There will be other osamas to continue on whatever they are fighting for.

Again i implore just one thing... try to understand the 'why' of it. I know it is difficult, but unless the root cause is determine, i dont think that 'irrational' behaviour by some muslims are ever gonna stop.

Anyway... i know what am saying might inflame some people and i do apologize beforehand... We dont live in an ideal world where everyone is happy with what they have and everyone respects other people's right... I for one am just trying to live by and not get caught in the middle is all.

Cheers... Faiz

[Ambar]

Mala if your comments make them mad, so be it. You make sense. It IS sad that the actions of few dictate how the majority are labeled, treated. Unfortunately that is human nature :(

Look at how race affects everyting. Young muslim men will be searched at airports because of actiosnof insugents, freaks, terrorists. In a robbery, if two men are running away fromt he scene (a black man and a white man) who will be chased? Nine out of ten? The black man.

Discrimination has and will continue to exist until we are all gray skinned one faithed as a world. In other words, never.

Live your peaceful life, be sad that the actions of a few outweigh the actions of MANY (Isn't Islam one of the most celebrated religions?) Pray for them, pray that someday they will be stopped. We will never change their beliefs, they are ingrained from birth I do believe. Just as we are raised to love and respect man in general (most of us) they are raised to hate.

-Jennifer

[Disoputlip]

Moderate muslims cannot ovevrtake the media.

Its like a soccer game where 40000 participated, then 4 people burn down a cafe, what is then gonna reach the news in the evening? The cafe burners ofcourse.

The grand mufti of Libanon talks about peace, and how he is sorry about this, and some high cleric in Iran talks about how how all muslims will sacrifice themselves to justify the cartoons. The Iran dude makes it to the news.

Christianity don't have this sort of problem though, because they only have 1 leader, and the pope doesn't really preach hate. Muslims have clerics that preach hate though, and noone above them like the catholic church. This is also why some of the lame fatwas like the one against Denmark and the danish people can be made.

[Corth]

When Pat Robertson proposes that Hugo Chavez be assassinated, he is rebuked by his fellow evangelical christians until he backs down and apologizes. Likewise, the militant zionist group lead by meir kahane was ostracized within the jewish community. But when crazy muslim clerics promise 72 virgins and issue a fatwah, thousands take to the streets ready to burn and kill. Don't tell me that the so-called moderate muslims cannot raise their voice loud enough in opposition to be heard. The moderate christians and jews can. Why not the moderate muslims?

There are either too few, or they are too scared.

Corth

[Xisiqomelir]

Malakwee, aren't you Malaysian? There is a HUGE difference between Muslim Arabs and Muslim Malays.

[Xisiqomelir]

Interestingly enough, plaintiff attorneys will always look for liberals on their juries. Conservatives are the kiss of death in that field.

This is completely OT, but what is the reason for this, generally?

[Zabam]

Maybe conservatives have a more defined line between right and wrong; or maybe they are more acute to the sense of self reliance. Both would probably make them less able to be convinced or have their opinion swayed by argument.

All I know is that I'm well past the right field line and have never been selected to serve on a jury.....I hated hanging around that holding pen for a week straight, if I didn't want to hang someone before the experience, I definately want to afterwards.

[teflor the ranger]

A person dont simply blow themselves up just so that they can have fun... that action of theirs is not a joke... there must be a reason... and unless we are able to understand the reason for them doing what they are doing, i dont think it is ever gonna end.

There is no rational reason to do things such as these, nor are there reasons that rational people will be able to understand.

Especially in a crowd of school children or next to a grandmother on a bus or in the midst of a crowd praying at a mosque.

This is an enemy that deals only in destruction. The greatest compassion for these foes is destruction before they can achieve their twisted goals.

[teflor the ranger]

Look at how race affects everyting. Young muslim men will be searched at airports because of actiosnof insugents, freaks, terrorists.

Actually Jen, in our PC society old hispanic grandmothers and white children are being searched at airports because of the actions of a few 'muslim' terrorists.

[teflor the ranger]

Christianity don't have this sort of problem though, because they only have 1 leader

What?

[Kifle]

Christianity don't have this sort of problem though, because they only have 1 leader

What?

Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Care to clarify this, Dis? If you're implying the pope is the leader of christianity, it is wrong. Catholicism != Christianity. Christianity has no leader.

[Corth]

Interestingly enough, plaintiff attorneys will always look for liberals on their juries. Conservatives are the kiss of death in that field.

This is completely OT, but what is the reason for this, generally?

I think generally conservatives are more likely to appreciate the point of view of business. They do not like redistribution of money. Rather, they have a strong work ethic and believe that you should earn what you get. I think they are more likely to see compensation for an injury as a windfall. They are also more likely to be suspicious of the victim. Liberals are less likely to have much concern for the 'big business' insurance company who will ultimately pay out. Further, they are inclined to redistribute money from the rich to the poor. Coming up with a verdict in favor of a blue collar individual, at the expense of big business, does not offend their ideals in any way.

But thats really a rather large oversimplification. I'm sure there are studies out there published in Law Reviews that could give you a much more detailed and satisfying answer.

[selerial]

Christianity don't have this sort of problem though, because they only have 1 leader

What?

Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Care to clarify this, Dis? If you're implying the pope is the leader of christianity, it is wrong. Catholicism != Christianity. Christianity has no leader.

Not to mention that the Church preaches, by example, that child molesters deserve to be moved to a different parish and not thought about until it happens again.

Most minorities (afaik) generally have a higher chance of openly killing you, but I believe what I've heard is that whites have a much greater percentage, by comparison, of participating in especially screwed up stuff, serial murder and the like.

Ultimately there is no morally superior position, unless you're one of those monks that actively avoids killing anything whatsoever (unless they have some unknown skeletons in their closet).

[Disoputlip]

Ok, I was wrong I guess. But it is very rare that you have christians that preach revenge etc. (what I would call preach hate).

For some reason christianaty must be doing something to prevent that... guess it isnt the pope that does it though.

[Corth]

Ok, I was wrong I guess. But it is very rare that you have christians that preach revenge etc. (what I would call preach hate).

For some reason christianaty must be doing something to prevent that... guess it isnt the pope that does it though.

I agree that something is preventing the so-called preaching of hate among Christians.

One possible explanation is that the super secret council of Christians gets together and drafts detailed plans to reprogram the minds of Christians who demonstrate a potential to be hateful.... :)

Or it could simply be that in communities which are predominantly Christian, people who exhibit such negative qualities are prescribed psych medication rather than exalted by all the other Christians as some sort of great person. That culturally, there is no incentive to be violent.