Increased fine enforcement for butt litter

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Increased fine enforcement for butt litter

Postby ssar » Wed May 31, 2006 10:32 am

“City of Sydney Rangers are maintaining a crackdown on the littering of cigarette butts as part of a Council campaign to discourage the practice.

City research shows that more than 5.3 million butts are littered each year in the CBD, Glebe and Kings Cross areas alone.

Fines are $60 for deliberately dropping a cigarette butt on the ground.”

..etc.

http://www.sydneymedia.com.au/html/2937 ... litter.asp


hmm..
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Postby avak » Wed May 31, 2006 3:42 pm

That is great. The next step is to completely ban smoking in all public areas. I just recently went to a Wolfmother concert in Minneapolis in a no-smoking venue (the whole city is !smoking) and have really never enjoyed a concert atmosphere that much. What an fn concept....I could breathe.

No offense to smokers; I don't think it should be banned or egregiously taxed, just kept out of the public. Just like nudity, great in private.
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Postby Vaprak » Wed May 31, 2006 4:00 pm

I for one welcome our new removal of all personal freedom overlords!
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Postby Kifle » Wed May 31, 2006 8:27 pm

avak wrote:That is great. The next step is to completely ban smoking in all public areas. I just recently went to a Wolfmother concert in Minneapolis in a no-smoking venue (the whole city is !smoking) and have really never enjoyed a concert atmosphere that much. What an fn concept....I could breathe.

No offense to smokers; I don't think it should be banned or egregiously taxed, just kept out of the public. Just like nudity, great in private.


Your car hurts my lungs!!1one! Please only park bikes in parking garages please...and push your car through the parking lot so when I'm walking through my lungs don't get infected.
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Postby avak » Wed May 31, 2006 8:54 pm

Are you guys in favor of cell phones on planes too?

The general principle I'm working off of here is that my personal freedoms only extend until they impinge upon your personal freedoms.

Another way of saying that is if one personal freedom is mutually exclusive of another, then that action should be regulated somehow.

For example, my town has a noise ordinance that takes effect after 10pm. Well, god damnit, I want to have a concert in the park and if people don't want to hear it they can just wear ear plugs.
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Postby Eilistraee » Wed May 31, 2006 10:55 pm

Kifle wrote:
avak wrote:That is great. The next step is to completely ban smoking in all public areas. I just recently went to a Wolfmother concert in Minneapolis in a no-smoking venue (the whole city is !smoking) and have really never enjoyed a concert atmosphere that much. What an fn concept....I could breathe.

No offense to smokers; I don't think it should be banned or egregiously taxed, just kept out of the public. Just like nudity, great in private.


Your car hurts my lungs!!1one! Please only park bikes in parking garages please...and push your car through the parking lot so when I'm walking through my lungs don't get infected.


Vehicles serve a necessary role and comparing their impact with cigarettes is ridiculous. All the same, shifting away from internal combustion engines to a cleaner running alternative would certainly be a trend I could believe in.

I understand you, or others out there perhaps if not you, wish to continue polluting yourself/themselves and feel it's a gods given right to do it whenever and wherever desired. Elect somebody who agrees with you; I'm grateful that there are people with more sense in _this_ regards coming up with legislation on the issue.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed May 31, 2006 11:00 pm

Vaprak wrote:I for one welcome our new removal of all personal freedom overlords!


Well, a ‘personal’ freedom basically ceases to be personal when it infringes upon the privacy of another individual, and ceases to be a legitimate right when it causes harm upon another person without their consent.

Personally I agree with Avak. You want to slowly kill yourself in the privacy of your own home that’s fine and should be your right to do so, and I don’t think you should be overly taxed to be able to do it.

If second hand smoke was harmless and you couldn’t see it, or smell it, we wouldn’t be having the problems we have with it. But it does, and because of this destroys the quality of life for those around the smoker. I honestly wish Houston was a smoke-free town.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed May 31, 2006 11:46 pm

As a smoker, I'm all for raising those fines even higher. Not only am I totally anti-litter, I've also become well-versed in what grass fires can do, as many of you know. When I camp out, every single cigarette butt leaves the campsite with me.

Aside from that, anybody who can't admit that tobacco is a scapegoat is pretty blind. Sure, I understand non-smokers not wanting to have to breath it, but we can't even create a smoking establishment in our state anymore. I can't smoke in a bar, but I can drive down the highway next to the people who were just in that bar, drinking.

As far as I'm concerned it's about as hypocritical as a law that demands you buckle up inside your car, but allows motorcyclists to drive without helmets.

And if you want to talk about damage to the health, maybe rising healthcare costs, we should be sure to discuss fast food, too.
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Postby sok » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:53 am

SuperSizeM3!

I dont smoke but sometimes I look out in the front of our building and i think man those guys are pretty cool and they are having so much fun socialzing and hanging out, why dont i take up smoking, i would probably be less stressed, but unfortunately i cannot afford the habit. oh well, i guess i will just stick with crack cocaine.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:00 am

My state just had a law take effect that bans smoking within 25 feet of any public building, and inside all those establishments.

As a former smoker (3+ years smoke free now), I have to say that this concept freaking rocks. It's amazing to actually be able to go out to a bar & grill and be able to enjoy a burger, beer, and a game of 9 ball without gagging or having trouble breathing.

Now if only they'd outlaw smelly diesel engines. Stupid Fords.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:41 am

I'm a former smoker.. but I just don't get why people are so virulent against smoking in public places. Hey, if the bar or restaurant allows smoking, then just don't go. Vote with your feet. If a non-smoking environment is so important to people, I can guarantee that bars and restaurants will open up that cater to non smokers. The fact that very few bars and restaurants voluntarily ban smoking indicates to me that the issue is not very important to most people. Just the loud and self righteous ones I suppose.

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Postby sok » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:06 am

Hey, I take offense to that last comment. I'm Loud & Self-Righteous, but not once did i complain when the strippers took a cigarette break.
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Postby avak » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:48 am

The problem with the "vote with your feet" argument is at least two-fold. One, there are many more variables involved in choosing where to go eat or recreate or whatever than whether or not they allow smoking. I mentioned that I went to a concert in Minneapolis. I drove five hours to go and had it been a bar that allowed smoking I would have still gone. I would have just hacked up part of my lungs the next day and thrown away my clothes. The problem is precisely that most people *aren't* virulent and self-righteous about it because I think most Americans do embrace personal freedoms.

And coupled to that, why don't these smokers that have been denied the right to smoke in publics places start frequenting places that cater to them? First of all, very few places would actually cater just to smokers because it would play wrong. And secondly, just as for non-smokers, smokers take into account more variables than just that one when deciding where to go.

Minneapolis-St Paul is a good example. After initial smoking bans in some parts of the metro, you're not seeing smokers' havens emerge, but instead, more bans. There is even plenty of evidence to suggest that the bans have been good for business.
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Postby Vaprak » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

Minneapolis-St Paul is actually a terrible example. Nobody can cater to smokers because it's against the law to cater to smokers, and being a metro area it's fully of hippies that a) vote for these sort of laws that bust personal freedoms like these all to heck and b) won't get off my lawn. Pretty soon the hippies in the Twin Cities Metro Area will have the entire state smoke free, at which point their super-duper budget plan of taxing cigarettes with a "fee" will wind up null and void and we'll be bankrupt again. Yay!

I quit smoking, but I still believe in the right of people that do smoke to be able to smoke. If you can only smoke in the privacy of your own home then why not just make smoking illegal by outlawing all forms of tobacco. It's just silly that it's legal to buy cigarettes, just that you can't smoke them. Some states are even looking at banning smoking in cars because it's "a safety hazard", yet it's perfectly OK for morons to drive with their cell phones glued to their ear. Politicians are dumb, and hippies. Now get off my lawn, you smell like patchouli!
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:35 am

Avak,

OK.. so you would choose to goto the bar... even if it meant having to put up with smokers. Guess what. Nobody is forcing you to. You have made a conscious decision that the benefit of seeing a band you like outweighs being exposed to smoke. Just like the owner of the bar has made a conscious decision that permitting a smoking section will result in more profit than banning it.

If smoking was so obnoxious that people would not goto bars and restaurants that permitted it, than bars and restaurants would be forced to voluntarily ban it. The fact of the matter is that there is more demand for smoking at these establishments than there is for smoke-free establishments. If this were not the case than bars and restaurants would have volunatarily banned smoking long ago. Nonetheless, virulent anti-smokers have succeeded in pushing their elitist legislative agenda in many states contrary to the desire of the majority.
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Postby ssar » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:54 am

Finally, some active increased enforcement of laws that have been around for ages, regarding a kind of littering that should have had some of the harsher penalties enforced heavily for decades.


For a start, what happened to that govt. ad campaign years ago claiming stricter litter fines where they mimicked people tossing a cigga or something on the ground and it was shown to actually be 1 or 2 $100 notes (can’t recall if it was $100 or $200).
So at least it was $100 – stinkin cigga smokers should be damn happy to get hit with a $40 (min) discount on their fine!

Well apparently here is some of the penalty rates for littering:

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/litte ... otices.htm


There was a article on last night’s tv news about it I noticed, and they had 2 Fwits claiming carp such as:

“The council doesn’t provide enough bins around the place!”, and

“Smokers have rights too!”

F ME.

Ummmm, carry a film cannister or personal ashtray, readily available for free or very cheap:

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/Envi ... htrays.asp

http://www.planetark.com/productspage.c ... /story.htm

Think on the % of people you have ever seen that use one of these (or similar) properly..
(Geez I can’t believe it is < 0.001% for most!)

And ummm, as soon as you light up buddy, all you need to think about regarding your rights is your main RESPONSILBILITIES as follows:
1) Keep your freaking smoke away from all other humans and animals, and
2) Dispose of ALL of your litter properly.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:15 pm

Oh get off your self righteous high horse ssar. Cigarette butts turn into dust in a few weeks outdoors. Most of us live in places where its perfectly legal to put your cigarette out on the ground.. and we aren't slogging around knee deep in butts.
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Postby avak » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:28 pm

The reason I brought up the Minneapolis metro area as an example is because for awhile Minneapolis was smoke free, but St Paul wasn't. Those two cities are jammed right up against each other essentially and compete to pull business from the surrounding suburbs.

I guess it seems to me like a good adhoc experiment to test the idea that people would use an issue like smoking to vote with their feet. Smokers and people that enjoy that environment should have chosen St Paul and the Minneapolis bars and businesses should have suffered. That's not what happened though. Minneapolis business (bars, nightclubs, restaurants, etc) are showing higher than usual growth and a St Paul mayor got elected with the smoking ban as part of his platform.

Hey, I know its not a black or white issue. I really don't like the idea of regulating behavior; especially in essentially private places like bars. In my opinion this is just one of those issues that the subjective mind can make pretty clear.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:52 pm

avak wrote:And coupled to that, why don't these smokers that have been denied the right to smoke in publics places start frequenting places that cater to them? First of all, very few places would actually cater just to smokers because it would play wrong. And secondly, just as for non-smokers, smokers take into account more variables than just that one when deciding where to go.


About a year ago, we had a bill banning all smoking in public places try to slip through on the coat tails of something more important (I can't remember what off hand) here. Fortunately, it was noticed and the public was not best pleased. The result was an alteration, producing a law that all public establishments must be labled as either smoking or non-smoking, and that never the twain shall meet.

A year later, I know of one bar in the whole city that is non-smoking, and only a little over half the resturaunts deny it. It seems that places catering only to smokers does, in fact, not "play wrong." At least not here.

(Yes, I do smoke.)
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:36 pm

sok wrote:I dont smoke but sometimes I look out in the front of our building and i think man those guys are pretty cool and they are having so much fun socialzing and hanging out, why dont i take up smoking, i would probably be less stressed, but unfortunately i cannot afford the habit. oh well, i guess i will just stick with crack cocaine.


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:29 pm

What I thought was funny as a kid was this commercial in Germany where it was showing the number of smokers who die per day from lung cancer. While they're saying just how many die per day, it shows a tobacco exec ordering a new option for his new Mercedes on his cell phone as he drives by the cemetary - which just happens to have the number of tombstones of ppl that had died that day.

The problem I have with smoking isn't really 'my rights' or 'smoker's rights' as much as the _whole picture_. Some 3rd party is basically providing you poison which is highly addictive. This world is weird. You're REQUIRED to wear your seatbelt for safety, yet as a smoker, you PAY some asshole to kill yourself and hurt your family and friends.
Last edited by Thilindel on Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:31 pm

What a pointless arguement. One's right to breathe versus one's right to smoke.

Cut the crap and get down to it. There's more non-smokers than there are smokers. Furthermore, children don't smoke, nor are they allowed to buy tobacco products in most places.

It's best to ban smoking in public places for a wide range of reasons: public health, children, being able to breathe without the use of drugs, etc.

The reasons to allow people to smoke in public? Convenience for the smoker?

Thanks. No thanks.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:35 pm

Thilindel wrote:You're REQUIRED to wear your seatbelt for safety


Don't even get me started on THAT one... :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:38 pm

I love how Teflor considers himself a conservative, yet in almost all cases, he advocates a government funded or executed remedy to whatever problem is being debated. And when I call him a communist, he thinks I'm nuts. Though I guess more technically, hes a statist with right wing leanings. :)

Corth
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Postby ssar » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:02 pm

Corth wrote:Oh get off your self righteous high horse ssar. Cigarette butts turn into dust in a few weeks outdoors. Most of us live in places where its perfectly legal to put your cigarette out on the ground.. and we aren't slogging around knee deep in butts.


*sigh*

It's attitudes like that that are fucking this world up.

Not only do cigarette butts NOT break down "in a few weeks", they cause a whole range of problems spanning direct environmental and ecological to sociological harm that simply should never occur.

I find it amazing that any modern society/government can permit legality of littering by leaving your butts on the ground.. Jeez.
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Postby Cirath » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:05 am

Thilindel wrote:The problem I have with smoking isn't really 'my rights' or 'smoker's rights' as much as the _whole picture_. Some 3rd party is basically providing you poison which is highly addictive. This world is weird. You're REQUIRED to wear your seatbelt for safety, yet as a smoker, you PAY some asshole to kill yourself and hurt your family and friends.


The same could be said of booze, and look what happened when the government tried to ban that. We like our vices, and trying to take them by force can have rather ugly consequenses.

Oh, as for the seatbelt thing, well, that is a rant for a different day.
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Postby Karenthael » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:12 am

I am a smoker. I am also an allergy-induced asthmatic. I have to say that if you are going to ban smoking in public areas then you have to ban all things that cause health issues for others as well. I have only one allergy that throws my asthma into existence.....perfume. Has anyone ever asked me if I mind if the douse themselves with perfume and then walk by me and set off my asthma? No. Have I ever asked if it is alright if I smoke if noone else is smoking? All the frikking time. As for the butts issue......I don't throw mine down, as a matter of fact, I have a pocketful every day where I am unable to find a receptacle while smoking outside non-smoking places. You don't want people to throw them down? Put out more of those trashcan/ashtray combo things and maybe some will stomp them out, then bendddddd over and pick the bloody thing up and throw it away like I do. Or maybe not.
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Postby Corth » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:33 am

Ban perfume!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Anab » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:04 am

Seconded!
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:13 am

Corth wrote:Oh get off your self righteous high horse ssar. Cigarette butts turn into dust in a few weeks outdoors. Most of us live in places where its perfectly legal to put your cigarette out on the ground.. and we aren't slogging around knee deep in butts.


Corth, where you live, the butts get washed into storm drains where they are routinely cleaned by people the city pays to do that.

Here where there are GREEN areas, the cigarette butts can last... oh I dunno, nearly forever. The corner off the freeway where I end up sitting waiting for a light every day has literally thousands of them lying all over. I can assure you there were many from before the snow even falling this past year.

When you talk about being self-righteous, make sure you put yourself out there too. I can think of several statements to back that argument up.

The defense rests.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:45 pm

Corth wrote:I love how Teflor considers himself a conservative, yet in almost all cases, he advocates a government funded or executed remedy to whatever problem is being debated. And when I call him a communist, he thinks I'm nuts. Though I guess more technically, hes a statist with right wing leanings. :)

Corth


I love how Corth considers himself a conservative, yet in almost all cases he advocates a hands off, powerless governmental stance to whatever problem is being debated. And when I call him an anarchist, he laughs and hopes the government stops taking any of his money. Though I guess more technically, he's a minarchist with right wing leanings. :)
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:53 pm

Tasan wrote:
Corth wrote:Oh get off your self righteous high horse ssar. Cigarette butts turn into dust in a few weeks outdoors. Most of us live in places where its perfectly legal to put your cigarette out on the ground.. and we aren't slogging around knee deep in butts.


Corth, where you live, the butts get washed into storm drains where they are routinely cleaned by people the city pays to do that.

Here where there are GREEN areas, the cigarette butts can last... oh I dunno, nearly forever. The corner off the freeway where I end up sitting waiting for a light every day has literally thousands of them lying all over. I can assure you there were many from before the snow even falling this past year.

When you talk about being self-righteous, make sure you put yourself out there too. I can think of several statements to back that argument up.

The defense rests.


Cigarette butts really do disintegrate over a period of several weeks (read as: several weeks for the thing to fall apart and the bits to go flying around. For a real breakdown, you're looking at rain and sunshine for about a year.) in the outdoors in most places. Some exceptions include severely cold climates and stagnant windless regions. Snow can preserve most things from deteriorating (ex.: utzi, the ice man, and that WW2 pilot they pulled off the mountain recently).

Furthermore, Ssar needs to get off the high horse because so many other people are trying to get on it. Seating Capacity 52! Seating Capacity 52!!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:14 pm

Karenthael wrote:I am a smoker. I am also an allergy-induced asthmatic. I have to say that if you are going to ban smoking in public areas then you have to ban all things that cause health issues for others as well.


Except cigarette smoking is a public health hazard and perfume is not.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:20 pm

Except for the paper coating, cigarette butts are made of cellulose acetate tow, a man made fiber which is NOT biodegradable. The strict definition of biodegradable is a substance which can be easily degraded by any of various living organisms, such as plants, fungi, and most commonly, bacteria. Hence the prefix bio. Nicotine residues (nicotine is produced naturally by the tobacco plant as a highly effective pesticide) remain in the butt, effectively killing most life forms that would try to digest the fibers anyways.

They are of course physically degradable, as all things are to some degree or another. In this case, they are most succeptible to solar energy, which breaks the polymers down into smaller and smaller units. Weathering, mechanical and chemical contaminates picked up in rain water will also have an effect.

At any rate, the average life span of a cigarette butt is SEVERAL YEARS.

Don't believe it? Drop some butts down into the bottom of a flower pot and leave it out in your backyard. They will survive intact for much longer than a 'few weeks.'

That said, I still think its crap that whole cities/countries are made smoke free. People should be able to fork out hard earned cash to corrupt multinationals for a debilitating, addictive DRUG if they want to. Seriously. Even as a bartender who never smoked, who would have been much happier if my workplace was smoke free, I just can't agree with a total ban on personal freedoms. Let the market decide, in this case, about smoke free establishments or places that cater to the other crowd.

Of course, the companies that sell the crap should be shut down and their billions in profits should go into health care among other things. You should have to grow tobacco organically and without additives if you want to sell it further, and their tax shelters should be completely wiped out as well...
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:32 pm

daggaz wrote:Except for the paper coating, cigarette butts are made of cellulose acetate tow, a man made fiber which is NOT biodegradable. The strict definition of biodegradable is a substance which can be easily degraded by any of various living organisms, such as plants, fungi, and most commonly, bacteria. Hence the prefix bio. Nicotine residues (nicotine is produced naturally by the tobacco plant as a highly effective pesticide) remain in the butt, effectively killing most life forms that would try to digest the fibers anyways.

They are of course physically degradable, as all things are to some degree or another. In this case, they are most succeptible to solar energy, which breaks the polymers down into smaller and smaller units. Weathering, mechanical and chemical contaminates picked up in rain water will also have an effect.

At any rate, the average life span of a cigarette butt is SEVERAL YEARS.

Don't believe it? Drop some butts down into the bottom of a flower pot and leave it out in your backyard. They will survive intact for much longer than a 'few weeks.'


QFT
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:59 pm

Cirath wrote:
Thilindel wrote:The problem I have with smoking isn't really 'my rights' or 'smoker's rights' as much as the _whole picture_. Some 3rd party is basically providing you poison which is highly addictive. This world is weird. You're REQUIRED to wear your seatbelt for safety, yet as a smoker, you PAY some asshole to kill yourself and hurt your family and friends.


The same could be said of booze, and look what happened when the government tried to ban that. We like our vices, and trying to take them by force can have rather ugly consequenses.

Oh, as for the seatbelt thing, well, that is a rant for a different day.


Alcohol is not the same thing at all. Social drinking doesn't hurt anybody. The problem with alcohol is really (a limited few) people who don't have self control. I doubt there is one single person on the bbs who doesn't know of a family member or friend who's not been hurt by a drunk driver, or victim of domestic abuse stemmed from an alcoholic, etc. The laws are what are mostly flawed.

Teens get stuff to sniff/snort banned, then they ban cold medicines and limit the sale of those, and so forth, but why? Inhalants and alcohol both make the user desire the effects, yet alcohol is legal and it's 'bad' to inhale those inhalants. Where there is a third party (supplier) to make money on potential victims and people who cannot control their desires, problems like this will always be around. I've yet to have read a case where a smoker binged and killed or driven erratically from smoking. That's basically why I wasn't speaking of alcohol.

On a kind of funny side note, I have never drunk, smoke, or done drugs. The worst thing I've done is drank..and drank......and draaank mountain dew. That stuff gives you a murderous headache if you even think about switching to water or something. I'd hate to know what suffering smokers go through, let alone alcoholics that try to quit cold turkey.
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Postby Vaprak » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:58 pm

Thilindel wrote:

On a kind of funny side note, I have never drunk, smoke, or done drugs. The worst thing I've done is drank..and drank......and draaank mountain dew. That stuff gives you a murderous headache if you even think about switching to water or something. I'd hate to know what suffering smokers go through, let alone alcoholics that try to quit cold turkey.


In just this past year I have quit smoking and drinking carbonated beverages (unless a splash or two should happen to fall into my whiskey). It wasn't really all that hard after the first week of each and I obviously didn't quit both at the same time or I would be in prison for murder.

My mom is a closet smoker and keeps asking me how I quit smoking. The answer is simple. The first step is to not pick up a cigarette. The 2nd step is to not get any cigarettes in your mouth, and failing that try not to let any sources of heat or fire close to any cigarettes that do happen to get into your mouth. So far it's worked amazingly well.

For me, at least, getting my mudding habbit under check a few years ago was 10,000 times more difficult that quitting cigs, soda, or any of the various other things that are actually illegal that I used to do. (jaywalking for exmple *stare*)
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Postby Corth » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:37 pm

Before my wife and I quit smoking, we would smoke outdoors on our front porch. For a while we didn't have an ashtray, so the butts were thrown onto the dirt in a corner near my front porch and behind a bush. They would then disperse a little bit, get covered by some dirt or leaves or what not. I would clean them up every couple of weeks and they were usually half deteriorated. I don't think they would last more than a couple of months in outdoor conditions.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Karenthael » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:36 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Karenthael wrote:I am a smoker. I am also an allergy-induced asthmatic. I have to say that if you are going to ban smoking in public areas then you have to ban all things that cause health issues for others as well.


Except cigarette smoking is a public health hazard and perfume is not.


Ok so sending a person to the emergency room and causing them to have to go on medication so they can BREATHE is not a health hazard? Ok sorry thought that qualified as a health hazard, how stupid of me.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:29 am

Show me evidence that cars are less harmful than cigarettes and this discussion is over; however, if you can't you are obligated by common sense to stop driving a car and get a job close enough to where you can get there by walking or riding a bike if you would like to keep being babies when it comes to second hand smoke.

Honestly, name one person that got anything else except irritated at second hand smoke. I bet you'll quote the "truth" adds that like to say something like "poor billy sat in a restaurant for an hour and smoked the equivilent of four cigarettes." Oh yeah? Why isn't the guy that has eaten breakfast 30 years at the same smoking establishment addicted to cigarettes? I'd imagine after 30 years of smoking 4+ cigarettes you'd be addicted, right?

The fact is, there is no evidence anywhere that links second hand smoke to anything but annoying crybabyitis. Hell, there is less than a 50% correlation between smokers and lung cancer. Last I checked it was around 30%. Also, the last time I checked, for anything to be linked as a "cause" of anything in the medical world, there needs to be at least a 50% correlation.

And Eli, cars are not necessary for everyday life. If you have a job an hour away, move closer. If you want to go to the IHOP in the next town, move there or don't go. I'm pretty sure humanity survived quite well before cars. Also, don't they have electric cars these days? If you people are so concerned about your health caused by "toxic" fumes, buy one of those cars or stop bugging the guy down the road who enjoys a marlboro once every 1.5hrs.
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Postby ssar » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:01 am

Vaprak wrote:For me, at least, getting my mudding habbit under check a few years ago was 10,000 times more difficult that quitting cigs


WOW . I find that quite amazing.

Fantastic to see see anyone successfully give up smoking.. well done!
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:14 am

For those who apparently don't seem to be aware of it...

Alcohol is an addictive substance.

Does everybody get addicted? No, but the potential is there, with every round of "social drinks" that gets bought.

Not only that, if you've ever wondered why the old bum on the corner lying in a puddle of his own urine doesn't just give it up... Once you're far enough into it, seriously trying to go cold turkey can be a quick ticket to the morgue.

Drinks can be sold legally to anybody over the age of 21, just like cigarettes. Now, I've heard of idiots falling asleep with a lit cigarette and roasting their asses, but I've never heard of college kids dying in a smoking-related hazing incident. The accident toll on the highways of this nation involving careless smoking is pretty darned low. I've never known anybody who has smoked themselves into a comatose state, or died because the cigarette smoke levels in their bodies became so toxic in a three hour period that they basically suffocated themselves, or strangled on their own vomit. I've seen plenty of cases of wet-brain, but I have yet to see a single case of tobacco-brain.

None of my friends has ever smoked too much and puked on my shoes. I've never had to comfort a friend who smoked too much and woke up out of her tobacco-induced blackout with the sudden, sinking knowledge that something was inside of her the night before, she just has no idea what. I've never had to break up a tobacco-induced fistfight. I've never known anybody who lost a job because they couldn't control their cigarette habit.

Both are nasty habits. I'm not supporting smoking over drinking, but to paint cigarettes as such an evil force in the world while keeping a blind eye to other legal substances is incredibly hypocritical. If you don't know the long-term and widespread effects of alcohol consumption on the general population, there are plenty of statistics available out there.

Oh, and in another, barely-related bit of meaningless trivia... I always heard the reason American Airlines stopped serving those little packages of peanuts was because of one incredibly wealthy patron, who brought a lot of business to the company, and whose daughter was so deathly allergic to peanuts that even the small particles that make up an item's odor was enough to send her into anaphylactic shock. Not sure if it's true, but there it is.

Now, bring me a margarita and a Marlboro... and some peanuts, please.
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Postby ssar » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:14 am

Thilindel wrote:On a kind of funny side note, I have never drunk, smoke, or done drugs. The worst thing I've done is drank..and drank......and draaank mountain dew. That stuff gives you a murderous headache if you even think about switching to water or something.



Wow. I also find this amazing.
Good on you for that too.
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Postby Corth » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:34 am

Ban peanuts!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Yarash » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:47 am

Vaprak wrote:Minneapolis-St Paul is actually a terrible example. Nobody can cater to smokers because it's against the law to cater to smokers, and being a metro area it's fully of hippies that a) vote for these sort of laws that bust personal freedoms like these all to heck and b) won't get off my lawn. Pretty soon the hippies in the Twin Cities Metro Area will have the entire state smoke free, at which point their super-duper budget plan of taxing cigarettes with a "fee" will wind up null and void and we'll be bankrupt again. Yay!

On the other hand, hippies do like to smoke pot :)

Here in California there is no smoking in restaraunts, and many other places, including the campuses I've been on. On the other hand, we have legalized marijuana for people who need it for "medical reasons."

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Postby Maedor » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:54 pm

Corth wrote:Nonetheless, virulent anti-smokers have succeeded in pushing their elitist legislative agenda in many states contrary to the desire of the majority.


You aren't seriosuly trying to say that the majority of Americans support/enjoy smoking?

Smoking is a disgusting, and revolting addiction. It smells like crap, and hurts society. The only real benefit of smoking would have to be the cig tax..heh. If it's ok to smoke inside, then why can't i vent my car exhaust into resturants? Wouldn't that be my 'right'? I like the smell of car exhaust, and too bad to everyone who doesn't want to die from the carbon monoxide! mmm

FAR more Americans are non smokers...just seems people have become less and less willing to let the minority smoke us into oblivion.

If you like goat porn, then watch it where the majority doesn't have to witness it...If you want to smoke--then smoke where it doesn't affect the majority.
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pollution

Postby muma » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:16 pm

actually vehicles don't serve a necessary role. people could ride a bike or use other options. but unfortunately american society has made it so people think it is necessary.

people actually believe that it is their right to have a car, and they are selfish. they don't care about how cars create noise pollution, air pollution and kill countless animals each day, not to mention increase of ground pollution. not only that, but even people who don't supposedly support the war, they support it by using the gasoline.

i f-ing hate cars. yesterday, as i was picking up trash on the side of the highway, i saw a fawn curled up, hiding in the tall grass that was above my waist. and it just sat there, staring up at me, sniffing, and there was a dead deer (on the side of the highway) not far from where that poor fawn was laying there, just waiting. then my co worker picked up a bottle next to it, so it trotted off into the dark woods...... poor little thing, it makes me so sad.
Last edited by muma on Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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oh yeah

Postby muma » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:34 pm

and cigarette butts probably take years to decompose. there are way to many on the side of the road, for there to be that many smokers. also my brothers used to smoke and the butts that they sometimes threw on the ground would be there for quite a long time. Way longer than "a few weeks".

another thing is that it seems like everyone who smokes, throws their cigarette boxes out the car window. they probably care the least about littering cause they poison their bodies daily, hence not caring about themselves, so of course they won't care about the environment or anything else. also a lot of booze bottles and cans, on the side of the road. alcohol is also poisonous.

ok 3 main things on the side of the road, which are all bad for someone's personal health:

fast food items, (cups and containers)
booze,
and cigarette butts and boxes

see they hurt their own bodies and therefore want to hurt the world too.
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Postby Karenthael » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:49 pm

I have to agree with Muma on this one....there are far too many of us smokers (and fast food eaters) who throw our trash out the window. I admit that I used to do exactly the same thing. Now, however, I am one of "those people" who will make you go back and pick up your butt if you throw it on the ground (I ticked some guy off the other night when he put his out on the ground BESIDE the ashtray out in front of a meeting and I made him pick it up and throw it away.) When I am in my truck in town if I see someone throw trash out their window, be it a cigarette box or what not, I write their tag number down and call the number into our local newspaper's Sound off column (readers opinions column) and berate them for the litter and advise the police to watch them for further abuse of the privelege of living in our town. I get a giggle out of it and they probably get embarrassed if they see their tag number in there, but I doubt that it does more than that. There really IS no excuse for throwing trash out of your window, you have a floorboard and most people have a trashcan at home that isn't too heavy to take out to the vehicle one or twice a week to clean it out. You have an ashtray in your vehicle (if the smell of ashes bugs you, put baking soda in the bottom of it) so why throw the butts out the window? Basically, they are right, smoking is a privelege and we owe it to those who grant us the privelege not to abuse it by causing more litter and thus costing city/county/state money to clean up behind us, which we should all be old enough not to need anyway. As for the non-smoking areas, I don't like it, I resent it, BUT, I can live without a ciggie long enough to get somewhere that I can smoke. I am just happy I work in a smoking-allowed office, but I still step outside to smoke because I have to get away from that phone every now and then:)

And a quick comment on the vehicle post, I am one of those selfish people, since i live in a rural area, vehicles are somewhat necessary. However, I have not hit an animal with my truck because I a) watch for them on the side of the road and take steps to avoid them b) have whistlers on my truck to let them know I am coming, they tend to either run or stand on the side of the road and watch me go by.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:14 am

Karenthael wrote: Basically, they are right, smoking is a privelege and we owe it to those who grant us the privelege not to abuse..


This is a fallacy in logic (as a former tobacco exec pointed out in an 20/20 interview). The companies would put it in your head that the non-smokers were trying to take your 'right' to smoke away. If it were a great product, they wouldn't have hidden the fact they'd been adding nicotine in it for so long for those who do try smoking to have so much trouble stopping. Dateline also had a nice story awhile back about how tobacco companies seemingly try to murder former employees who try to release product info to the public. And now look. PhillipMorris tries to wave a flag and advertise (after being force by the government) about the risks of smoking, etc. However, if you aren't quite strong enough to stop smoking, here, try our new product! Now with extra flavor *sigh*.

Anyway...as for what Kifle said about 2nd hand smoke, my best friend met some girl he really liked. She smokes. So, my friend would have to put up with that trash reject smoker's morning breath, or live with the scent from her clothes, etc. So what'd he do? He started smoking. Tells me 'at least I can't smell it on her.' Nothing's quite so gross as being in a smoker's car and seeing that film that lines the windows of their car. The same film is on a smoker's lungs. But that's another story I guess. However, that's SECOND hand smoke that's leaving the film, so Kifle should consider that in the least I hope :) Also, second hand smoke isn't quite so addictive because most the nicotine is drawn out by the original source/smoker.

I personally never attack or make fun of smokers, and I hope I'm not coming across that way. Addiction is addiction. The problem is the jerks who sell it, and the politicians who are bought into allowing it, whereas silly stuff like Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride are now hidden from the public and under control for use due to 'abuse' Just my opinion but I'll use my own example of Mt. Dew. Why does it have so much caffeine? It used to take like 'piss' as I'd say. Then when my friend took me to toxic hell ..er, taco bell enough, I just started drinking it. -Damn him. I don't enjoy it, it doesn't really taste like anything to me. But when I don't get it, I get grumpy and have the headache that lasts for quite awhile despite ibuprofen etc.

Wouldn't it be great if all tobacco execs were put in a steel cage and you could 'address' them however you see fit, for all the years of wasting 2 bucks or whatever it is per pack, for a short term fix? Hopefully this other example that happened to my friend in high school isn't too close to home. His mom was dying. She STILL wouldn't stop smoking, despite lung cancer that of course was from the smoking but you know how the blame game goes. What do you do, blame the smoker, or the provider?
Last edited by Thilindel on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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