Increased fine enforcement for butt litter

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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Postby grundar » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:03 am

decided this post was not worth a second page, no matter how much i am against the antismoke nazi's ideas.
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a point

Postby muma » Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:59 pm

Karenthael,

i know some people cannot afford to not use cars, due to their location, but i was just trying to make a point so that people could consider life without a car for a moment. i still use a car too, because 1. i'm a hypocrite, and 2. i have to figure out how long it would take to ride my bike to work.

i live in a somewhat rural area, in a small town. and another thing is that cars out here on back roads drive so fast, it's sort of dangerous to ride a bike (but i say worth the risk).

heh anyway, i didn't expect anyone to take my post seriously, because when i say things like that most people just shrug it off, like a fly landed on their shoulder.
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Postby Karenthael » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:03 pm

Yeh but when you're right, you're right. One of the things I hate to see is a dead animal on the road. It makes me so mad. I saw one not 20 foot from a stop sign the other night. HOW DO YOU MANAGE THAT?? Anyway, you touched on a pet peeve of mine so I commented, sorry:)
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Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:08 pm

I smoke when and if i want to, particularly when im consuming alcohol. I enjoy it as a social pleasure, and I find the rash of anti smoking ordinances going up extremely irritating. I literallly can not find any place where I can go and enjoy a beer, a cigarette and some eye candy.

if smoking is legal, business owners and consumer demand should be able to determine whether or not you are allowed to smoke in them, not politics and not so called discrimination.

--

I can't wait until someone proves christianity is "good for you" so we can make it compulsory in the interests of public health.

stop taking my god damn rights away.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:28 am

Stop taking away my right to breathe.
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Postby Perzan » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:01 am

[/quote]
On the other hand, hippies do like to smoke pot :)

Here in California there is no smoking in restaraunts, and many other places, including the campuses I've been on. On the other hand, we have legalized marijuana for people who need it for "medical reasons."

- Mike[/quote]

So lets do the right thing and bring those tobacco companies down by growing our own smoke! Band cigarretes! Legalize pot!
hrmm....
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:04 pm

Tasan wrote:Stop taking away my right to breathe.


If I said I had a right to not read idiot arguments like this, would you tell me to not enter the thread? Yeah, probably.

Take that to the bank.
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Postby avak » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:49 pm

Kifle wrote:
If I said I had a right to not read idiot arguments like this,


Hmmm, who exactly has taken away that right?

I mean, I see what you are getting at, but the issue is really one of mutual exclusivity.

Another example of this same argument is played out in rural areas all of the time. A farmer (or investor) decides to build a factory style animal confinement. All of the neighbors are instantly exposed to a number of unhealthy and unpleasant factors, including: nauseating odors, increased truck traffic, flies, and significantly lowered property values.

The neighbors claim it is their right to have a decent quality of life and that the farmer is impinging upon those rights. The farmers say it is your choice to live near agriculture and by trying to stifle their project the neighbors are killing the farm economy.

Absolutely parallel arguments.

Or tell me that you think the free market can address all of the following regulated activities: strip club locations, the location of industrial parks, obscenity in media, public nudity, public drinking and intoxication, video lottery, hell all gambling, liquor licenses, health codes in restaurants, truth in advertising, interest rates...etc etc

Free market forces do not solve all problems. Laissez-faire is a guiding priciple and not a divine mandate. Using it to cherry pick debates is unproductive at best.
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Postby avak » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:52 pm

Oh, and I forgot to add. The funniest thing to me is that strict adherence to free market ideology is typically considered a Republican thing. Then reconcile that with the slew of indeceny law stemming from the infamous (and oh so damaging to our moral fabric) "wardrobe malfunction" a couple years ago. All being pushed by free market Repubs.

Just for documentation purposes, Sen Brownback is leading the charge on stricter regulation for network television while also being rated 100% by the Cato Institute on free trade policy.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:36 pm

Kifle wrote:Show me evidence that cars are less harmful than cigarettes and this discussion is over; however, if you can't you are obligated by common sense to stop driving a car and get a job close enough to where you can get there by walking or riding a bike if you would like to keep being babies when it comes to second hand smoke.


I moved close enough to work to walk or ride a bike, and when the weather is permitting, I do one or the other. I do acknowledge car exhaust is bad for the enviroment, and I do what I can do limit how much I contribute to the problem. When me and my friends go out, we car pool, and yes this usually means I'm the driver. Since I'm the driver, that also means I am the DD.

Kifle wrote:Honestly, name one person that got anything else except irritated at second hand smoke. I bet you'll quote the "truth" adds that like to say something like "poor billy sat in a restaurant for an hour and smoked the equivilent of four cigarettes." Oh yeah? Why isn't the guy that has eaten breakfast 30 years at the same smoking establishment addicted to cigarettes? I'd imagine after 30 years of smoking 4+ cigarettes you'd be addicted, right?


Cigarette smoke, not cigar smoke, nor MJ smoke, nor campfire smoke, nor insence smoke, but cigarette smoke specifically causes immediate allergic reactions to me. Usually as soon as it hits me, I sneeze within 10 seconds. First symptoms are an itchiness in facial and nasal areas. Then it elevates to watering eyes and dramatically increased itchiness (like you want to peel the skin off your face because it itches so much, or take a cheese grater to it). Finally it comes to uncontrolled sneezing combined with difficulty breathing, like someone is pushing on your chest, both accompanied by harsh coughing.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm not going to fall into your ignorance trap and just say, if you really want to smoke something, smoke something worth it. Roll a blunt and stop being such a pussy yourself.
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Postby Corth » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:14 am

Avak,

Yes, republicans of the Teflor mentality are just as offensive to the free market as democrats. Thats why we have the libertarian party.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby ssar » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:00 am

Llaaldara wrote:Cigarette smoke, not cigar smoke, nor MJ smoke, nor campfire smoke, nor insence smoke, but cigarette smoke specifically causes immediate allergic reactions


Yea, this is the case for many people, also some incense smoke has a similar effect.

The fact is, the only positive thing about cigarettes is well-utilized tax revenue from them. Full Stop.

They simply shouldn't be anywhere near as ingrained into modern society as they are - quite unbeleivable.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:24 am

Referring to a discussion we had over beer and chips w/salsa ..

Shop/club owners should be the ones who decide whether to make their establishment non-smoking or not. If they chose to allow smoking, they should then post signs to that effect so the allergy folks can beware

Allergy folks.... what do you normally do when the place allows smoking? I can't imagine you have avoided smoke filled places all your lives.

By the way I HATE smoking, HATE the smell, hate everything about smoking :P I think that smoke free worlds are better places :)

I just think people should have places they can have their after dinner smoke, or have their cigs while they drink. Non-smoking AREAS are ridiculous unless they are different rooms altogether. Isn't it funny to sit on the edge of the smokeless area back to back to a smoker?

We tend to go a tad overboard about *rights* sometimes. If I don't like what's on TV, it's my *right* to turn the damn channel :) If I don't like smoking, it is my *right* to avoid the places that allow it (although I dont).

I HATE!!! HATE!! Barney and teletubbies.. BAN THEM!!!!

*giggle*
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:29 pm

The right to not go somewhere if smokers are nearby doesn't apply terribly well when it's a case of them hovering about in front of the hospital doors. Or in front of the mall, although there are often alternative entrances to malls.

I can and do avoid some bars where smoking was done regularly, as the smoke tends to linger in seat upholstery, carpet and walls for years. If these places still allowed smoking I would still avoid them. Sadly, I am not able to avoid the hospital, or the entrance into my school, or one of many other entrances that are fortified by the stench of cigarette smokers who cannot even adhere to a sign that states no smoking within 10 feet of the doors.

Given the inability of some smokers to respect that simple signage, I am more in favor of broader anti-smoking legislation that may push them further away from these regions. If they would simply clear away from the entrances to buildings, I'd have a lot more sympathy for them. The stench would still cling to their clothing and trigger asthma attacks and other allergens, but at that point you get into the debate regarding perfumes and other odors.

Which btw, some places do ban because of the allergic reactions they can trigger.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:23 pm

Eilistraee wrote:The right to not go somewhere if smokers are nearby doesn't apply terribly well when it's a case of them hovering about in front of the hospital doors. Or in front of the mall, although there are often alternative entrances to malls.

I can and do avoid some bars where smoking was done regularly, as the smoke tends to linger in seat upholstery, carpet and walls for years. If these places still allowed smoking I would still avoid them. Sadly, I am not able to avoid the hospital, or the entrance into my school, or one of many other entrances that are fortified by the stench of cigarette smokers who cannot even adhere to a sign that states no smoking within 10 feet of the doors.

Given the inability of some smokers to respect that simple signage, I am more in favor of broader anti-smoking legislation that may push them further away from these regions. If they would simply clear away from the entrances to buildings, I'd have a lot more sympathy for them. The stench would still cling to their clothing and trigger asthma attacks and other allergens, but at that point you get into the debate regarding perfumes and other odors.

Which btw, some places do ban because of the allergic reactions they can trigger.


So you're saying that walking past a smoker for what, 3 seconds, is hindering your happiness? Give me a break. If your life is that bad that you're going to have a bad day because you have to walk by a few smokers to get into a building, you should call doctor phil or something. And don't give me the allergy argument because last I checked, most humans can hold their breath for 3 seconds.

What's next? Would you also agree to legislation banning ugly people from being sighted in public because it hurts the pretty people's eyes? Shuffle them in through rear enterances and make them shop with bags over their heads? I mean, by your logic, the logic that says, "Since it bothers one of my senses (smell), I shouldn't have to put up with it for any amount of time," you would have to agree with the ugly argument since it is asthetics you are arguing here.

Out of the roughly 100 people I am aquainted with, one of them is allergic to smoke, one is allergic to nuts and eggs, two are allergic to certain types of pain killers, and half are allergic to some type of pollen and mold and pets. Out of those 100 people (roughly) three are deathly allergic to their allergies (nuts/eggs, and pain killers). The rest get sneezing fits, mucus build-uip, itchy eyes, etc... Also, while the allergies are not deadly in the remainder of my aquaintances, a few do have athsma which could make them deadly (pets and pollen). So, by anti-smoker logic we now must have legislation passed that bans any type of flower or weed to be within 30 feet of a doorway outside public areas, no plants inside public areas, no smoking in those areas as well, and noboy who owns a pet may have any hairs or dander on them when leaving their houses.

So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway? How is it justified to pass legislation on anti-smoking when there are many other allergies that may harm people just as much, if not more?
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:27 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
Kifle wrote:Show me evidence that cars are less harmful than cigarettes and this discussion is over; however, if you can't you are obligated by common sense to stop driving a car and get a job close enough to where you can get there by walking or riding a bike if you would like to keep being babies when it comes to second hand smoke.


I moved close enough to work to walk or ride a bike, and when the weather is permitting, I do one or the other. I do acknowledge car exhaust is bad for the enviroment, and I do what I can do limit how much I contribute to the problem. When me and my friends go out, we car pool, and yes this usually means I'm the driver. Since I'm the driver, that also means I am the DD.

Kifle wrote:Honestly, name one person that got anything else except irritated at second hand smoke. I bet you'll quote the "truth" adds that like to say something like "poor billy sat in a restaurant for an hour and smoked the equivilent of four cigarettes." Oh yeah? Why isn't the guy that has eaten breakfast 30 years at the same smoking establishment addicted to cigarettes? I'd imagine after 30 years of smoking 4+ cigarettes you'd be addicted, right?


Cigarette smoke, not cigar smoke, nor MJ smoke, nor campfire smoke, nor insence smoke, but cigarette smoke specifically causes immediate allergic reactions to me. Usually as soon as it hits me, I sneeze within 10 seconds. First symptoms are an itchiness in facial and nasal areas. Then it elevates to watering eyes and dramatically increased itchiness (like you want to peel the skin off your face because it itches so much, or take a cheese grater to it). Finally it comes to uncontrolled sneezing combined with difficulty breathing, like someone is pushing on your chest, both accompanied by harsh coughing.

As to the rest of what you said, I'm not going to fall into your ignorance trap and just say, if you really want to smoke something, smoke something worth it. Roll a blunt and stop being such a pussy yourself.


I wouldn't call me not smoking weed being a pussy. I'd call it somebody that grew up during my teen years. And as for the blunt comment, stop being an idiot trying to impress your homies -- save your money and invest in a one-hitter.

For all other arguments, refer my other post.
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Postby selerial » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:00 pm

Karenthael wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Karenthael wrote:I am a smoker. I am also an allergy-induced asthmatic. I have to say that if you are going to ban smoking in public areas then you have to ban all things that cause health issues for others as well.


Except cigarette smoking is a public health hazard and perfume is not.


Ok so sending a person to the emergency room and causing them to have to go on medication so they can BREATHE is not a health hazard? Ok sorry thought that qualified as a health hazard, how stupid of me.


This comment just irked me. Get over yourself. I mean that quite literally. You smell perfume and are gonna die, OMG OMG OMG!!!! Ban perfume!

Basically if you took the population of America and put a glass dome over 'em somewhere and injected perfume in to the dome for a week straight, you'd kill maybe 1% of the population? Now take that same dome and inject cigarette smoke for a week straight, and I bet you'd be having health problems for somewhere on the order of 100% of the population at the end of the week.

So is something that harms 1% of the population a health hazard? Honestly? No. You have a flaw, congratulations. Now move on.
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Postby Cirath » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:45 pm

selerial wrote:Basically if you took the population of America and put a glass dome over 'em somewhere and injected perfume in to the dome for a week straight, you'd kill maybe 1% of the population? Now take that same dome and inject cigarette smoke for a week straight, and I bet you'd be having health problems for somewhere on the order of 100% of the population at the end of the week.

So is something that harms 1% of the population a health hazard? Honestly? No. You have a flaw, congratulations. Now move on.


Ever look at any major city from a distance? They do have domes of smoke over them. However, no one is forcing you into a cigarette smoke gas chamber. If you are allergic to it, well, there are countless different allergies, many of which are life threatening, but you obviously don't consider them a serious problem.

The day the world at large agrees to start filling your house with cigarette smoke while you sleep, you might have a valid reason to promote more severe smoking bans. Otherwise, it seems more like most of you have a bigger problem with rude people than the product itself. Take away the smoke, and they will still be pricks.
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:29 pm

You know what Kifle?

I just can't seem to get it through to my 1 year old daughter with lung disease (not from smokers but still a health problem) that she's supposed to hold her fucking breath when we take her to the hospital because she's having trouble breathing.

I'd happily make my opinion known with my feet, but I'm told that I would get charged for assault so I have to simply applaud when all the butt-heads get fined and lose more and more access to areas within which to smoke. Maybe with luck tobacco companies can inject some sterilizers into their tobacco too, and we can breed the habit out of people.

Smoking is disgusting, you can find the most beautiful person in the world, in all of history and as soon as you stick one of those stupid sticks between their lips they become ugly. Denying that it's a health risk to all around, simply because the right percentile of proof hasn't been made, is a copout.

Sure hope you've given up on your plans to move to Canada Kifle. They're coming to their senses up here and making it a real pain in the ass to be able to smoke anywhere but your own space.

Should hike the taxes on smokes up by triple too, lower taxes from somewhere else as a result. You wanna smoke, go grab a loan. Or better yet, get the hell out and away from the rest of the world.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:53 pm

Kifle wrote:So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway? How is it justified to pass legislation on anti-smoking when there are many other allergies that may harm people just as much, if not more?


Last time I checked, smoking was a voluntary act whereas breathing wasn't so much. Personally, I love the insistance that it is infringing on a right. I can't go kill a smoker without getting away with it, yet over my lifetime it's rather possible I could develop a serious medical condition from the thousands of smokers I've come into contact for "3 seconds".

If I stood in front of a doorway swinging an axe all day, and happened to hurt people that walked by, would that be their fault for not avoiding me, of course not. Smoking isn't a right, it's a priviledge that hasn't been completely revoked yet. Last time I checked this country passed laws that were supposed to protect it's citizens, even if that meant removing some freedoms.

I personally think that freedom is a terrible thing when wasted upon the negligent and uneducated people that think that freedom is their god-given right. Freedom isn't a right, and you should be happy you are allowed as much as we have.

I could go into the medical insurance issues and other proven facts, and reasons why smoking affects more than just the people who light up, but everyone with half a brain understands those things now. The fact that smoking is still legal anywhere is beyond me. Comparing it to drinking or other hazards of life is completely assinine.

How is it not selfish to defend a freedom that causes harm to others?
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Postby Drache » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:47 pm

Kifle's ignorance in his posts makes him seem to me like a cig exec incognito. Spouting this stupidity that there's no proof etc. Either that or Kifle was teleported here from the 1950's?
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Postby ssar » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:19 am

Kifle wrote:So you're saying that walking past a smoker for what, 3 seconds, is hindering your happiness?

So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway? How is it justified to pass legislation on anti-smoking when there are many other allergies that may harm people just as much, if not more?


Not only does walking close to a smoker "hinder the happiness" of many others it's a blatant & rude health hazard.

I, too, cannot beleive how stubborn/stupid/ignorant/all of the above many smokers are when it comes to lighting thier cancer sticks up close to doorways or other areas where they are not supposed to. FFS it usually only takes an extra quarter of to a minute at most to walk to a reasonable location to smoke, yet so many fwits light up as soon as they are passing through the doorway etc.

It is not at all selfish to desire clean air to breathe.
It is extremely selfish to pollute the air breathed by others in the vicinity and at the same time doing something so dumb to yourself.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:35 am

ssar wrote:
Kifle wrote:So you're saying that walking past a smoker for what, 3 seconds, is hindering your happiness?

So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway? How is it justified to pass legislation on anti-smoking when there are many other allergies that may harm people just as much, if not more?


Not only does walking close to a smoker "hinder the happiness" of many others it's a blatant & rude health hazard.

I, too, cannot beleive how stubborn/stupid/ignorant/all of the above many smokers are when it comes to lighting thier cancer sticks up close to doorways or other areas where they are not supposed to. FFS it usually only takes an extra quarter of to a minute at most to walk to a reasonable location to smoke, yet so many fwits light up as soon as they are passing through the doorway etc.

It is not at all selfish to desire clean air to breathe.
It is extremely selfish to pollute the air breathed by others in the vicinity and at the same time doing something so dumb to yourself.


Like I said, if 3 seconds hinders your happiness, you are obviously missing something in your life. Most of those "fwits" light up as soon as they leave the door because nicotine is a highly addictive drug matched very closely to heroin -- you know, the stuff that kills some people if they quit cold-turkey. Anyway, after 45 minutes to an hour most people have a strong craving to smoke. After working four hours, most people have such a strong desire, they light up as soon as possible. Yes, it is their fault for becoming addicted, but that is really beyond the point here. I still don't see where the problem of you walking through smoke for three seconds really is that damaging to anybody's health or well-being. I'd wager that 90% of the smoke from both the cigarette and the persons longs even makes it to your face...even less is inhaled by the person complaining. So it smells bad, should it be mandated that all construction workers take showers before leaving the job-sites because their odor bothers me? Should strippers be legally obligated to douche, brush their teeth, put on deoderant between sets? Should people with colostomy bags and catheters be shuned from society because they smell bad? Should old people be banned from public because they have a pungent odor as well? How about babies. At some point they will shit themselves and I will smell it...because of that chance encounter, should all parents who have a baby still in diapers be legally obligated to keep their babies away from people who may be offended by it? How about those hippies that wear patouley oil? Should they be banned from public for giving me a headache? I could list millions and millions of annoyances that rank right up there with having to smell cigarette smoke for 3 seconds out of your day, and none of them justify legislation.

As far as the allergy argument goes, that 3 seconds will harm a very very very very very tiny portion of the population of the world...probably just as much as the person allergic to perfume, hypersensitive to animal dander, etc...

Lastly, the polution argument is the most idiotic and hypocritical argument you could possibly make. Please. Should we pass legislation that outlaws any gasoline driven vehicles from driving near a building? Make cities build parking lots and garages outside of city limits so I can walk on the sidewalk without having to worry about my lungs and athsma? And I'd also be willing to bet that your car pumps out more pollution in one week of driving than my cigarettes will in an entire year. Go on a crusade oh holy ssar and stop driving your car. Just think, you could negate 52 smokers pollution a year! :roll: Never mind, you don't drive a car do you...who would need one with that high horse you've got yourself there.
Last edited by Kifle on Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:39 am

Drache wrote:Kifle's ignorance in his posts makes him seem to me like a cig exec incognito. Spouting this stupidity that there's no proof etc. Either that or Kifle was teleported here from the 1950's?


Show me sweetheart. Show me one person who's been addicted to cigarettes from second hand smoke. Show me one person who's been proven to have gotten lung cancer from second hand smoke. Show me the statistics of the people who have been killed by allergic reactions to second hand smoke as opposed to those killed by other allergic reactions encountered in public. Come on cupcake. If it exists, show me. Show me any conclusive evidence that second hand smoke from people standing in front of doorways or walking through the quad is anything but an annoyance that would justify legislation. Show me. Until then, don't bandy the word "ignorant" around like you know what it means.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:09 am

Sylvos wrote:You know what Kifle?

I just can't seem to get it through to my 1 year old daughter with lung disease (not from smokers but still a health problem) that she's supposed to hold her fucking breath when we take her to the hospital because she's having trouble breathing.

I'd happily make my opinion known with my feet, but I'm told that I would get charged for assault so I have to simply applaud when all the butt-heads get fined and lose more and more access to areas within which to smoke. Maybe with luck tobacco companies can inject some sterilizers into their tobacco too, and we can breed the habit out of people.

Smoking is disgusting, you can find the most beautiful person in the world, in all of history and as soon as you stick one of those stupid sticks between their lips they become ugly. Denying that it's a health risk to all around, simply because the right percentile of proof hasn't been made, is a copout.

Sure hope you've given up on your plans to move to Canada Kifle. They're coming to their senses up here and making it a real pain in the ass to be able to smoke anywhere but your own space.

Should hike the taxes on smokes up by triple too, lower taxes from somewhere else as a result. You wanna smoke, go grab a loan. Or better yet, get the hell out and away from the rest of the world.


1. Drape a blanket over your baby's carseat as you're carrying her through the door of the hospital. Problem solved. I've done it for my daughter. If a few particles of smoke are going to tip the scale one whether or not your baby will live or die if she was having resperatory problems, the chances are you were too late in the first place. Ask any doctor worth anything.

2. I'm not sure where this assault thing came from.

3. Asthetics are hardly objective. I say people who eat McDonald's are disgusting. And last I checked, heart disease is ranked higher than lung cancer on the CDC's fatality statistics. Maybe you people should start at the top of the list and work your way down the ladder if you want to start a crusade against bad habits.

4. Wife wont move to Canada :(

5. Why not hike the taxes up on fast food while we're at it...and alcohol. I'm sure most of the people here that I've talked to and met would throw a shit fit if they had to take out a loan to buy a six-pack. And last I checked, drunk driving is also higher than lung cancer on the fatality list given by the CDC, but I know damn well a large majority of the folks here have driven a car after drinking (yes, even a beer can impair motor function).

Now, as far as the whole hospital thing. I don't think it's right for people to smoke outside of hospital doors. I can understand that. I personally don't do it, but I'm not going to go outside and roundhouse some asshole for putting my child at a .00000000000000000000000000001% higher chance of having complications. I have faced reality.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:24 am

Tasan wrote:
Kifle wrote:So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway? How is it justified to pass legislation on anti-smoking when there are many other allergies that may harm people just as much, if not more?


Last time I checked, smoking was a voluntary act whereas breathing wasn't so much. Personally, I love the insistance that it is infringing on a right. I can't go kill a smoker without getting away with it, yet over my lifetime it's rather possible I could develop a serious medical condition from the thousands of smokers I've come into contact for "3 seconds".


Driving is a voluntary act. Go kill motorists while your at it. The polution put out by cars far far far outweighs that produced by cigarettes.

Tasan wrote:If I stood in front of a doorway swinging an axe all day, and happened to hurt people that walked by, would that be their fault for not avoiding me, of course not. Smoking isn't a right, it's a priviledge that hasn't been completely revoked yet. Last time I checked this country passed laws that were supposed to protect it's citizens, even if that meant removing some freedoms.


And if I just happen to be shooting random bullets outside of a liquor store or in a parking lot, that would be the same equivilant as far as your analogy goes. If you want to protect citizens, ban alcohol. But you wouldn't like that would you...you enjoy your beer a bit too much.

Tasan wrote:I personally think that freedom is a terrible thing when wasted upon the negligent and uneducated people that think that freedom is their god-given right. Freedom isn't a right, and you should be happy you are allowed as much as we have.


Freedom is my god-given right if there is a god. Man gives government its power, not any god. God never said, "thou shalt not smoke this tobacco I've planted here on earth."

As for that last statement, tell that to everybody else around the world...you should be happy you're allowed as much as you have. And of course America must be the most freedom oriented nation, right? Of course, of course. When a man gives up freedom in exchange for protection to the extent he is no longer happy, he is no better off than if he had stayed in the state of nature -- thereby eliminating any need for government. When exactly is that line crossed by a government Tsan? Is it the same for all men, or should we go by what you say is a good trade-off -- or what G.W. says is a good trade-off, or what Clinton said was a good trade off?

Tasan wrote:I could go into the medical insurance issues and other proven facts, and reasons why smoking affects more than just the people who light up, but everyone with half a brain understands those things now. The fact that smoking is still legal anywhere is beyond me. Comparing it to drinking or other hazards of life is completely assinine.


How is comparing smoking to any other hazards assinine? Drunk driving kills. If I smoke in my own home like you would want, there would be no hazard to you, yes? If retards learned to stay at home after drinking, they would be no hazard to me, yes? Seems pretty similar as far as where the hazard begins if you ask me...or most people for that matter. But you like beer, so that really doesn't help your arguments. It would be a shame if you had to give up something instead of expecting others to give up what they enjoy, yes?

Tasan wrote:How is it not selfish to defend a freedom that causes harm to others?


Name one thing that has no possibility of harming somebody else. Driving causes harm, drinking causes harm, stealing purples in world of warcraft causes harm, perfume causes harm, moldy houses cause harm, glass causes harm, guns cause harm, knives cause harm. However, out of that list, everything is legal and is considered a freedom to you that should not be taken away, yet smoking should be. That is selfish.
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Postby Drache » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:20 pm

Kifle wrote:
Drache wrote:Kifle's ignorance in his posts makes him seem to me like a cig exec incognito. Spouting this stupidity that there's no proof etc. Either that or Kifle was teleported here from the 1950's?


Show me sweetheart. Show me one person ....


Is common sense too much to ask? I guess the three year old really does need to be repeatedly burned by a stove to see it's hot when the surface isn't visible. A big DUH awaits I guess!
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:07 pm

Kifle,

I'm not sure what planet you're on atm, but this is Earth. On planet Earth, establishments that allow smoking are typically smoke filled if they don’t have separate designated smoke rooms, not areas Kifle, ROOMS with CLOSING DOORS. It's NOT one little tiny area immediately around the smoker, as you might like to think, that causes the offense. It's NOT one smoker in the entire establishment. It's not ONE KIFLE in the entire place that's bothering me for 3 seconds when I walk by. It's the 20-30 smoking Kifles in the place smoking, EVERYWHERE, making the entire environment smoky.

You asked, “who does this really hurt?” I gave you a direct example of someone it does and how it hurts them. That person just happened to be me. I see how you failed to completely acknowledge that fact and instead choose to disregard it as only lasting as a “3 seconds” annoyance, which further shows you ignorance on allergies. At that rate, if a person progressed that fast in allergic symptoms in 3 seconds, they’d be dead in 10.

Now, are you honestly that stupid to think if smoking bothered me on such a level that I would stand around someone purposely while they did smoke? What are you fucking retarded or something? When people light up, I walk away from them. The problem is smart-ass, when it's going on all over in an establishment, the whole room becomes saturated with the smoke, and then there IS NO place to go. Smoke disperses into the air, that’s why you don’t see it after a few seconds. It’s SPREADING. It doesn’t just disappear from existence just because you can’t see it anymore, and because of that it extends well beyond your immediate personal bubble.

I also never argued anything about addictions, so why the hell are you even mentioning that? I responded to your comments about who does this really hurt. End of story. You drew comparisons about how if you did something for 30 years you’d become addicted to. Well smoking is like punching yourself in the head as hard as you can 4 times a day. Maybe after 30 years you’d be addicted to it, but I dunno, I just know you’d prolly have some form of brain trauma by then.

I mentioned the carpooling and living close to work to show I was an environment conscious individual. To show I wasn’t some hypocrite that harps on smokers while killing everyone else with my carbon monoxide pollution.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ambar,

Well for me personally the symptoms progress over time. Adequate ventilation in an establishment, even lets say a club with smoking going on, can slow down the progression of symptoms - it doesn't stop the current ones, just keeps it from getting worse. Standing in front of a AC vent blowing fresh air, for example, can temporarily halt the progression of the symptoms, or if they have an outside area (like a deck) to get fresh air. Nothing is worse tho then going outside to get fresh air and finding out everyone is smoking out there as well.

Basically once I hit the 2nd level of symptoms, I perma-park myself in front of an AC vent/Fan. If I can’t do so, it’s time to leave. Yes it sucks. It means I always show up late, and leave early compared to other people, because I usually just can’t stay long. I love outdoor events tho, like BBQ’s. I’m there all day! :)
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Postby Drache » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:28 pm

I also noticed you quoted Truth.com and made digs at them, Kifle. The whole obvious point is if the Truth's site was erroneous, they would be sued...and harshly. Any claim they make that isn't proven yet would be an open and shut case against them. So, with that, you failed your argument. The other thing was the post where someone pointed out smoker's car windows are totally filmed over. I guess that's why my friend's car is so hard to look thru the windows. That totally is the stuff that cakes the lungs and clothes on the bystanders that surround or pass smokers.

Last, I'll let you search yourself, there are tons of lawsuits where people like flight attendants develop lung cancer from 2nd hand smoke. It's clear 2nd hand smoke is nearly as bad as smoking itself, that is if someone is stuck in an environment where they cannot escape the smoke. Your arguing 2nd hand smoke doesn't cause blah blah because there's no concrete proof. How stupid, cupcake. Oh, PS. I'm a dude. Quit talking to me like you're a pervert or something.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:53 pm

Llaaldara .. kinda like how folks with cat allergies can chill in a place for an hour or so before they are all red eyed and teary, sneezy and coughing?

Gocha

Blah gotta suck :(

Anyone else being nasty in the thread:

why do all controversial threads end up locked :P You KNOW this one is headed that way !

I was taught as a child that the best thing to do soemtimes is agree to disagree. Keep pushing Carl's buttons and he will continue .. you know the pattern.. I personally would have stopped when Sylvos talked about hsi infant daughter who has no control of her environment

but thats just me :P
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Postby Drache » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:49 pm

Or all I said was how kifle sounded was reminding me of a tobacco exec..then I end up getting called cupcake, sweetheart . . what THE hell? Ignorance is NOT an insult. In this situation specifically, it's a fact however.

Now if the house across the street had one known bully, and everytime people that left that house had black eyes, bruises etc., I'd doubt a cop were stupid enough to say 'PROVE' to me that it was the bully! It could be some third party. *derrr*
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hehe

Postby muma » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:26 am

Kifle, you're stubborn....

i don't really have a comment about cigarette smoke and banning, but

if you're anti mc donald's, as it's really unhealthy, then why are you pro smoking? i mean it's poison!
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:42 am

Drache wrote:Now if the house across the street had one known bully, and everytime people that left that house had black eyes, bruises etc., I'd doubt a cop were stupid enough to say 'PROVE' to me that it was the bully! It could be some third party. *derrr*


Good thing you know the law, otherwise you'd understand that the charges wouldn't hold up in court with only hersay to back it up...that is if the guy was smart enough to hire a lawyer.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:56 am

Llaaldara,

Learn to read before you post. Any time I mentioned allergies it was in response to people moaning about walking into a building and having to pass smokers for 3 seconds -- not having to sit in an establishment where smoke is. Meaning the smoke goes up and thins itself out into the air. The amount one would intake from second-hand smoke in these cases is irrelevant to all but a fraction of a percent of the world's population. I never said once that smoking should be ignored everywhere, just outside. As for the other places, it should be left up to the owner of the establishment, not the government. If you want a beer, find a non-smoking bar or throw a party at your house. If you want a meal, go to a non-smoking restaurant or learn how to cook. You have a choice to not go where I or other smokers go.

Anyway, I don't know where the majority of your post came from. The addiction of nicotine was brought up in response to what somebody else said, not you. If you don't know why I mentioned it to them, read their post. If you still don't understand, the best I can advise you to do is keep re-reading the posts until you understand.

Also, even though you may be carpooling, you still acknowledge that your pollution is killing people; however, you still drive a car or ride in one. You may lessen it, but you do not stop because you are not willing to give up the things in order to do so. That is just like me saying I'll only smoke one cigarette around people like you with allergies to do my part in only killing a few of you instead of more...I'll let everybody else do that. Kind of an empty action, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, if you want to adjust your statements to where they actually apply to mine, feel free, but calling me a retard when you miss point after point doen't make you look very good.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

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Postby Drache » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:09 am

Kifle wrote:
Drache wrote:Now if the house across the street had one known bully, and everytime people that left that house had black eyes, bruises etc., I'd doubt a cop were stupid enough to say 'PROVE' to me that it was the bully! It could be some third party. *derrr*


Good thing you know the law, otherwise you'd understand that the charges wouldn't hold up in court with only hersay to back it up...that is if the guy was smart enough to hire a lawyer.


The judicial system lets guilty people walk all the time. Being oblivious to common sense is a totally different story. Way to dodge! Another kudos for dodging the film on the car windows from smoking!
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:11 am

Drache wrote:I also noticed you quoted Truth.com and made digs at them, Kifle. The whole obvious point is if the Truth's site was erroneous, they would be sued...and harshly. Any claim they make that isn't proven yet would be an open and shut case against them. So, with that, you failed your argument. The other thing was the post where someone pointed out smoker's car windows are totally filmed over. I guess that's why my friend's car is so hard to look thru the windows. That totally is the stuff that cakes the lungs and clothes on the bystanders that surround or pass smokers.

Last, I'll let you search yourself, there are tons of lawsuits where people like flight attendants develop lung cancer from 2nd hand smoke. It's clear 2nd hand smoke is nearly as bad as smoking itself, that is if someone is stuck in an environment where they cannot escape the smoke. Your arguing 2nd hand smoke doesn't cause blah blah because there's no concrete proof. How stupid, cupcake. Oh, PS. I'm a dude. Quit talking to me like you're a pervert or something.


I call guys sweetheart when they act like little girls, get your hands out of your pants.

As for the lawsuits, I'll chalk those up to be on the same level as people who spill coffee on themselves and sue the restaurant because the coffee was hot, or when a fat person sues McDonald's for making them fat. If you get lung cancer from being a bartender at a smoking bar or a flight attendant on a smoking airliner and you get lung cancer, that is your fault. Those people chose to work under those conditions, and you'd be hard pressed to find an honest person who does not know that there has been a correlation between smoke and certain types of lung cancer. I mean, does the cops family sue the department if the cop gets kia? No, it is a known risk when doing their job.

Also, second-hand smoke has never been found to cause lung cancer. The WHO never found or stated so in their first study and they didn't in their second as far as I know, but the last time I checked, they hadn't released their findings on second-hand smoke in their second study.

As for the truth ads, I was paraphrasing, not quoting. And while their data may be statistically acurate, reality seems to somehow contradict their findings. This would not be the first time statistics did not mirror reality, nor will it be the last. That is the flaw behind statistics. So, while their information may be accurate, it is only accurate to a point -- and that doesn't even take into account that it is propaganda and half-truths. Do some actual non-biased research and you'll see what I'm talking about.

In regards to the film. Well, you'll notice that the smoke has nowhere to go in a car. The tar will latch itself on to windows, yes, but relating that to somebody walking by somebody who is smoking is just rediculous. That's like comparing somebody who jumped into a pool and got completely soaked to somebody who walked through a very thing wall of fog.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:13 am

Drache wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Drache wrote:Now if the house across the street had one known bully, and everytime people that left that house had black eyes, bruises etc., I'd doubt a cop were stupid enough to say 'PROVE' to me that it was the bully! It could be some third party. *derrr*


Good thing you know the law, otherwise you'd understand that the charges wouldn't hold up in court with only hersay to back it up...that is if the guy was smart enough to hire a lawyer.


The judicial system lets guilty people walk all the time. Being oblivious to common sense is a totally different story. Way to dodge! Another kudos for dodging the film on the car windows from smoking!


Unless you saw those people get punched, you're working on assumptions just like the court would say...which is something that has gotten innocent men put on death row as well. And I didn't doge it, you split up your posts like somebody who has ADHD.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:19 am

Ambar wrote:I was taught as a child that the best thing to do soemtimes is agree to disagree. Keep pushing Carl's buttons and he will continue .. you know the pattern.. I personally would have stopped when Sylvos talked about hsi infant daughter who has no control of her environment

but thats just me :P


You know, out of respect for sylvos and having very similar problems with one of my children, I almost stopped there too. But like you said, she has no control over the environment, but he and his wife do. However, he knew very well this was a touchy subject on the edge of blowing up and still decided to bring his daughter into it.

Anyway, I guess I've come off as entirely cold and uncaring in this argument. I don't post here to make enemies. If I have, the feeling is not mutual. I don't take things said on message boards, or any other argument for that matter to heart and I hope none of you do either.
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Postby Drache » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:03 pm

Well, 'sweetheart', you may not post to make enemies, but you POST like a true fool. You add things that weren't there. You call names like a 5 year old. Worst of all, you grab at straws when you are on the wrong side of an argument. Rename this thread: Kifle vs. the world maybe. Either way, you're 100% pure stupidass. You define second hand smoke as a walkby. Whereas most people I know define it as anytime you're around smokers. Stuck beside them on busses, trains, flights, elevators, etc. Get your head out of your ass.
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Postby avak » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:41 pm

I think the internets should have a magic oz-style man behind the curtain that can push a magic button that transports all posters on a BBS to a room somewhere...face to face. But hey, abstract anonymity is also a kind of cool thing.

I think that smoking in public really is a no-brainer. I mean in "public" though...like a city park or on the university campus, government buildings, etc.

The real dilemma is over "private" spaces like bars and restaurants. Those are places where people really can choose not to go if they want. Regulating what people can or cannot do in "private" is really hard for me to embrace.

I would ask someone like Kifle though, to look at it more pragmatically. In all seriousness, society is often forced to restrict rights of some in the good of the many. I really challenge you to think about private matters that are regulated. Again, here are some that I think stand out:

Gambling and video lottery
Liquor sales
Health codes in restaurants
Public behavior ranging from nudity to noise to general disturbance

Are these things inappropriately regulated? Or more specifically, should they be unregulated completely?
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:17 pm

I used to smoke. I don't understand why the heck I ever did it to be honest. Actually I do. I worked in a restaurant and was surrounded by it constantly. At the time I figured WTH, I’m smoking it anyway, might as well try it first hand. So I was young and stupid.

I have asthma. Its stress induced which means it doesn't flare up until I 1) get sick, 2) do too much w/o paying attention or 3)... Walk through an area populated with smokers.

No, I'm not talking a restaurant or other area that is closed in. I'm talking about the cloud of smoke I used to have to walk through to get through the front door at work, where over half the people there smoked. Anytime it would get the slightest bit chilly outside, they'd huddle around the door and puff away. Every time the door opened, the cloud of smoke entered and swept right to my desk. Same with any public buildings in the city I used to live in, because it was a "Clean Air" town. By city ordinance in Carlsbad, NM, it is illegal to smoke inside a restaurant that does not serve alcohol, or inside any other public building including grocery stores etc. It’s also illegal to smoke within 10 feet of the entrances, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

Another thing most people don't take into account: Smoke does not just dissipate into the air. It hangs like an invisible cloud around the body of the smoker for hours at a time in their clothes, hair and skin. Frankly holding my breath to walk through the door doesn’t do much to help if they just come inside carrying it with them anyway.

Back to the post.

If someone wants to slowly kill themselves with cigarettes, that’s their deal, and the health issues later will be their problem. MY deal is this… simply follow the rules. If there aren’t rules posted with regards to smoking around doorways etc., try simple consideration for other people that don’t smoke yet have to walk through the same doorways. Also dispose of butts properly.

We have friends who smoke, and I created an ashtray to go outside my side door from a coffee can and cat litter. I can’t stop them from smoking, but they respect me enough to dispose of the butts properly.

Anyone think perhaps that more and more laws are being passed with regards to this matter due to the decrease in simple consideration? If smokers as a whole remembered to dispose of their butts properly, there wouldn’t need to be a law to fine them for not doing so. If smokers as a whole were considerate and didn’t congregate RIGHT at the doorways to smoke, there wouldn’t need to be ordinances to require they be 10 feet away.

I have a choice about where I eat, and I choose only places that have the smoking area totally segregated from the non-smoking area, as in a totally different room away from the door. I choose not to go to bars. I don’t just choose it for me, I choose it for my kiddos. However I don’t have a choice about walking through the door to the grocery store, because I have to go in and telling my children to hold their breath to walk through the door of a public building seems a little silly.

Oh and the personal insults are getting ridiculous guys. Sheesh.
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Postby Drache » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:37 pm

The personal insults start when I said Kifle sounds like an tobacco exec, so he starts getting personal. That's what happens with most people who aren't smart enough to know when to stop. They try to get personal to side-track. I'm sitting here quoting where airline women etc. get lung cancer and haven't ever smoked but are fully exposed to it every day, and kifle wants to be a tard and try to say 'Where's the proof?'

As for the topic. What purely pisses me off is when I have a party at my house and my friends and their friends leave cig butts in the windows, scorching the paint. They also just smash them and drop them in the carpet. The only difference between a smoker and a non-smoker is the smoker smokes. Duh. They're not 'bad' people in my mind. They're just weak to peer pressure. In the 1950's a 3 year old is told to not touch that hot pot with boiling water. They try it? Sure, if you don't watch them. It's a new century even. These fool teens still think it's cool to do something against the rules. So they try it. Then as they get older they feel it's a RIGHTS issue. Smoking is slow suicide. Why don't they try something more quick? Stronger drugs etc. They're illegal but so what? If someone has such bad judgement that they're willing to PAY to suicide and harm those around them, then they should smoke harder, faster, and longer. Or, they could just quit. Save their money and make those around them proud. That'd really be what tobacco people want to see! That's why the government has sued them repeatedly.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:44 am

Drache wrote:Well, 'sweetheart', you may not post to make enemies, but you POST like a true fool. You add things that weren't there. You call names like a 5 year old. Worst of all, you grab at straws when you are on the wrong side of an argument. Rename this thread: Kifle vs. the world maybe. Either way, you're 100% pure stupidass. You define second hand smoke as a walkby. Whereas most people I know define it as anytime you're around smokers. Stuck beside them on busses, trains, flights, elevators, etc. Get your head out of your ass.


And you're much better. Good for you. I wish I could call somebody a 5 yr old name caller and then call them names and still feel superior. You must teach me this trick.

I never defined second-hand smoke as "walk-by." I'm only saying the times you do just walk by somebody smoking, it is not detrimental; therefore, leave those smokers be. I don't mind people wanting non-smoking establishments, but to take out smoking from all establishments and in front of all establishments is not justice in the least. It is a tyranny of the majority, discrimination, and in some cases just plain stupid.

Regardless, I still love you and so does jesus.
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Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

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teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:55 am

Karenthael wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Karenthael wrote:I am a smoker. I am also an allergy-induced asthmatic. I have to say that if you are going to ban smoking in public areas then you have to ban all things that cause health issues for others as well.


Except cigarette smoking is a public health hazard and perfume is not.


Ok so sending a person to the emergency room and causing them to have to go on medication so they can BREATHE is not a health hazard? Ok sorry thought that qualified as a health hazard, how stupid of me.


Indeed. A public health hazard only applies when it's a threat to the public. When it's just a threat to you we call it an allergic reaction.

For example, peanuts.
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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:55 am

avak wrote:I think the internets should have a magic oz-style man behind the curtain that can push a magic button that transports all posters on a BBS to a room somewhere...face to face. But hey, abstract anonymity is also a kind of cool thing.

I think that smoking in public really is a no-brainer. I mean in "public" though...like a city park or on the university campus, government buildings, etc.

The real dilemma is over "private" spaces like bars and restaurants. Those are places where people really can choose not to go if they want. Regulating what people can or cannot do in "private" is really hard for me to embrace.

I would ask someone like Kifle though, to look at it more pragmatically. In all seriousness, society is often forced to restrict rights of some in the good of the many. I really challenge you to think about private matters that are regulated. Again, here are some that I think stand out:

Gambling and video lottery
Liquor sales
Health codes in restaurants
Public behavior ranging from nudity to noise to general disturbance

Are these things inappropriately regulated? Or more specifically, should they be unregulated completely?


I see what you're saying, but on outdoor smoking, I just can't agree. Yes, there are many pragmatic reasons I can see in your examples, but I don't believe in some of them such as the gambling and nudity. Nudity is not so much pragmatic, but more bound in morals and "decency." And the gambling is more of a "seatbelt" law which I don't understand. The same for outdoor smoking. Any other time somebody is doing something you do not like, most people would stay just stay away from them -- but smoking seems to be different some how. In the case where it may be detrimental to their health (usually never near fatal or anything over itchy eyes and a sneeze), people somehow feel that it's more important than the people allergic to perfume. I just don't understand why one person's comfortability is supposed to be so much more important to maintain than anothers for arguably arbitrary reasons.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:57 am

Kifle wrote:Show me evidence that cars are less harmful than cigarettes and this discussion is over; however, if you can't you are obligated by common sense to stop driving a car and get a job close enough to where you can get there by walking or riding a bike if you would like to keep being babies when it comes to second hand smoke.

Honestly, name one person that got anything else except irritated at second hand smoke. I bet you'll quote the "truth" adds that like to say something like "poor billy sat in a restaurant for an hour and smoked the equivilent of four cigarettes." Oh yeah? Why isn't the guy that has eaten breakfast 30 years at the same smoking establishment addicted to cigarettes? I'd imagine after 30 years of smoking 4+ cigarettes you'd be addicted, right?

The fact is, there is no evidence anywhere that links second hand smoke to anything but annoying crybabyitis. Hell, there is less than a 50% correlation between smokers and lung cancer. Last I checked it was around 30%. Also, the last time I checked, for anything to be linked as a "cause" of anything in the medical world, there needs to be at least a 50% correlation.

And Eli, cars are not necessary for everyday life. If you have a job an hour away, move closer. If you want to go to the IHOP in the next town, move there or don't go. I'm pretty sure humanity survived quite well before cars. Also, don't they have electric cars these days? If you people are so concerned about your health caused by "toxic" fumes, buy one of those cars or stop bugging the guy down the road who enjoys a marlboro once every 1.5hrs.


Except cars and other ICE vehicles provide great benefit to society. Smoking only benefits society by killing smokers (or something of the sort).
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:00 am

Corth wrote:Avak,

Yes, republicans of the Teflor mentality are just as offensive to the free market as democrats. Thats why we have the libertarian party.


You know, Corth, a government of, by, and for the people can have a place in society. The aims of libertarians lie with the aims of communism. To, in the end, have no government or need for government.

Commie.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:13 am

Lilira wrote:I used to smoke. I don't understand why the heck I ever did it to be honest. Actually I do. I worked in a restaurant and was surrounded by it constantly. At the time I figured WTH, I’m smoking it anyway, might as well try it first hand. So I was young and stupid.

I have asthma. Its stress induced which means it doesn't flare up until I 1) get sick, 2) do too much w/o paying attention or 3)... Walk through an area populated with smokers.

No, I'm not talking a restaurant or other area that is closed in. I'm talking about the cloud of smoke I used to have to walk through to get through the front door at work, where over half the people there smoked. Anytime it would get the slightest bit chilly outside, they'd huddle around the door and puff away. Every time the door opened, the cloud of smoke entered and swept right to my desk. Same with any public buildings in the city I used to live in, because it was a "Clean Air" town. By city ordinance in Carlsbad, NM, it is illegal to smoke inside a restaurant that does not serve alcohol, or inside any other public building including grocery stores etc. It’s also illegal to smoke within 10 feet of the entrances, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

Another thing most people don't take into account: Smoke does not just dissipate into the air. It hangs like an invisible cloud around the body of the smoker for hours at a time in their clothes, hair and skin. Frankly holding my breath to walk through the door doesn’t do much to help if they just come inside carrying it with them anyway.

Back to the post.

If someone wants to slowly kill themselves with cigarettes, that’s their deal, and the health issues later will be their problem. MY deal is this… simply follow the rules. If there aren’t rules posted with regards to smoking around doorways etc., try simple consideration for other people that don’t smoke yet have to walk through the same doorways. Also dispose of butts properly.

We have friends who smoke, and I created an ashtray to go outside my side door from a coffee can and cat litter. I can’t stop them from smoking, but they respect me enough to dispose of the butts properly.

Anyone think perhaps that more and more laws are being passed with regards to this matter due to the decrease in simple consideration? If smokers as a whole remembered to dispose of their butts properly, there wouldn’t need to be a law to fine them for not doing so. If smokers as a whole were considerate and didn’t congregate RIGHT at the doorways to smoke, there wouldn’t need to be ordinances to require they be 10 feet away.

I have a choice about where I eat, and I choose only places that have the smoking area totally segregated from the non-smoking area, as in a totally different room away from the door. I choose not to go to bars. I don’t just choose it for me, I choose it for my kiddos. However I don’t have a choice about walking through the door to the grocery store, because I have to go in and telling my children to hold their breath to walk through the door of a public building seems a little silly.

Oh and the personal insults are getting ridiculous guys. Sheesh.


No, the smoke does not hang around you in a little invisible cloud and yes, the smoke does disipate into the air above. Yes, some of the tar and smoke can stick to you, and what you smell is little particles being released as I walk. It's the same with a fart: What you are breathing in when you smell a fart is little poo particles (and a small amount of methane). People who are set off by sitting around smokers are not being set off (allergically) by the smoke itself, it is a psychological effect -- much like a panic attack.

Also, you are right, there should be some sort of consideration involved between smokers and non-smokers; however, making subjective consideration into a law is unfair. Should it be law to hold the door open for all handicaped people? Want to talk consideration? How about making it law for establishments who don't allow smoking indoors to build outdoor smoking facilities that are climate controlled? Believe me, you wouldn't have smokers hanging around the doorway anymore. I mean, that would be considerate and pragmatic to the rest of the public, right? No, it's just easier to push somebody aside because you don't like what they do, or you get minutely bothered by it. Tell me, how many times has your life been threatened by walking past a group of smokers? How many times has your life been threatened by walking past a smoker who just came inside from having a smoke? If that number is above zero, do you now actually hold your breath for the 1-3 seconds it takes to get by them? If you don't, you are as much to blame as them as far as your health goes -- not consideration wise, but considerations are subjective and shouldn't be manditory.

I'd be willing to bet that more people die from gun accidents than walking past smokers into a building. Who's going to ban hunting? How many more people die from intended gun violence than walking past smokers into a building a year? Who's going to ban guns all together? Even if I had athsma, I'd still be much more worried walking downtown chicago than I ever would be walking past smokers when I could just hold my breath -- because I can't hold my breath to dodge bullets.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:41 am

Catch phrase of the week:

Kifle wrote:poo particles


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Postby Lilira » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:50 am

Actually Kifle...

When playing a game of "what-ifs" with my husband, we'd actually made allowances for smokers if we decided to open a restaurant or something in the future. A completely separate area, climate controlled with heavy filtration. Unfortuneately, while the thought is there, and its a nice one, most business owners don't see a need for the extra expense incurred to do so.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I've never had any kind of "panic attack" in my life, and don't have them in the presence of cigarette smoke if I get a whiff of it. I do feel ill depending on the strength. One is an annoyance, 20 and I'm heading for the nearest patch of fresh air before my chest tightens up.

If I wasn't in the middle of trying to do 30 things at once I'd take the time to do some of my own research. The problem with every piece of research is the fact there is more research to dis-prove anything that can be found. For every doctor that says small bits of 2nd hand smoke are nothing, I could probably, if I had the time to expend the effort, find one that states differently. As far as laws are concerned, the ones making them are going to listen to the doctors on their payroll. How many doctors out there say Chocolate is bad for you... how many are coming out to say its good for you?

Circles and circles of debates, and this particular topic is one that will never end.

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