Increased fine enforcement for butt litter

[Tasan]

No, it's just easier to push somebody aside because you don't like what they do, or you get minutely bothered by it.

I think this about sums up your ignorance of the topic. Obviously there is a bit more than a minute amount of bothering going on. Your opinion of what smoke does to people doesn't excuse you, just as the lies propogated by the govm't don't excuse politicians.

At any rate, keep smoking Carl. I don't have a problem with smokers per se, I have a problem with cigarettes and ignorant people that smoke. I know you, you know me, we get along fine and it isn't a personal issue. No I don't think you are ignorant on most accounts, but if you honestly think it shouldn't bother people well... I really don't know what to say.

And btw, if they ban alcohol tomorrow, I won't be one of the ones crying. It's just another money sink I can do without.

Doug

[Corth]

Avak,

Yes, republicans of the Teflor mentality are just as offensive to the free market as democrats. Thats why we have the libertarian party.

You know, Corth, a government of, by, and for the people can have a place in society. The aims of libertarians lie with the aims of communism. To, in the end, have no government or need for government.

Commie.

All governments have a tendency over time to seek more power for itself, often at the expense of individual freedom. My belief is that the only good government is the highly constrained one.

Corth

[Kifle]

No, it's just easier to push somebody aside because you don't like what they do, or you get minutely bothered by it.

I think this about sums up your ignorance of the topic. Obviously there is a bit more than a minute amount of bothering going on. Your opinion of what smoke does to people doesn't excuse you, just as the lies propogated by the govm't don't excuse politicians.

At any rate, keep smoking Carl. I don't have a problem with smokers per se, I have a problem with cigarettes and ignorant people that smoke. I know you, you know me, we get along fine and it isn't a personal issue. No I don't think you are ignorant on most accounts, but if you honestly think it shouldn't bother people well... I really don't know what to say.

And btw, if they ban alcohol tomorrow, I won't be one of the ones crying. It's just another money sink I can do without.

Doug

I wouldn't say it implies ignorance. A lot of rules, regulations, and laws were created because people didn't like the actions regardless of the existance of any true victims. Many people don't want to walk past smokers because they find it disgusting in one way or another -- in fact, I'd say most people pushing for these laws could be described as such. Whether you fit that category or not, I'm sure you'd be upset if the government was unjustifiably regulation something you truely enjoyed doing as well.

Even still, I quit smoking (hopefully for good this time) about 8 hrs ago. See you in August?

[kiryan]

Litter is the lamest red herring for the anti smoking campaign there is, get some intellectual honesty.

Some of you will believe the stupidest unbelievable crap if you read/hear it from a "reputable" source. Others like Corth, believe in their self and their own observations. I'm sure some cigarette butts last years, but generally thats not what I see either.

for your enjoyment,

My last tenant, for over a year, was a smoker. He left behind several hundred plastic cigarette holders out off the patio, the kind that go over the filter of a cigarette. There were like 20 or 30 with mostly disintegrated, butts in the end of them.... these are cigarette butts INSIDE a platic housing thrown haphazzardly out on the ground and < 10% had butts still in them... I live in Oregon.

long live smoking studies performed or paid for by anti-smoking groups.

---

I do agree with fines and criminal prosecution for littering, but I don't think that targetted discrimination (increased fines for littering cigarette butts vs say mcdonalds wrappers) is an American value. Fines for littering should be flat, or they should be comensurate with the difficulty of clean up / impact to the environment. Anything else is discrimination (and yes I realize cigarette butts typically represent a fire hazzard).

Funny story, I know a guy who got an $80 fine for littering a banana peel out on a rural highway.

[avak]

Funny story, I know a guy who got an $80 fine for littering a banana peel out on a rural highway.

My god man! Do you know the risk that sort of thing poses to various cartoon characters?!?!

[muma]

Funny story, I know a guy who got an $80 fine for littering a banana peel out on a rural highway.

Wow, that is so retarded. that's why i can't stand laws because it's like they're a mindless entity that rules over our common sense.

Hey Corth and Teflor,

The best government, is no government!

Green Anarchy!

[Corth]

Muma is my kind of chick.

That 'green anarchy' crap, however, is highly misguided. :)

[teflor the ranger]

Wow, that is so retarded. that's why i can't stand laws because it's like they're a mindless entity that rules over our common sense.

Yes, but who's common sense? I don't mind it ruling over convict x's common sense.

[teflor the ranger]

Avak,

Yes, republicans of the Teflor mentality are just as offensive to the free market as democrats. Thats why we have the libertarian party.

You know, Corth, a government of, by, and for the people can have a place in society. The aims of libertarians lie with the aims of communism. To, in the end, have no government or need for government.

Commie.

All governments have a tendency over time to seek more power for itself, often at the expense of individual freedom. My belief is that the only good government is the highly constrained one.

Corth

All governments have a tendency to begin with barely enough power to be effective. Washington could barely collect enough money to feed his troops at Valley Forge, the recognized transitional Somali government doesn't have any power beyond it's capital city, and Cuba wasn't organized enough to keep the US from grabbing onto its soil. To seek power is one thing, but to seek excessive power is another issue entirely.

[Yarash]

So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway?

I don't think anybody is being denied access to public areas, they simply cannot smoke in those areas. Smoking is a choice. People do not have to smoke.

- Mike

[muma]

Wow, that is so retarded. that's why i can't stand laws because it's like they're a mindless entity that rules over our common sense.

Yes, but who's common sense? I don't mind it ruling over convict x's common sense.

TEf, convict x doesn't follow the law anyway, otherwise he wouldn't be a convict. in fact, most people in jail have been there before. so they are continually breaking the law, which makes the law even more worthless.

edit:

look i'm just trying to say that people are going to do what they want. the law may put them in jail, but they are still doing what they want. drugs are illegal but people still do them, prostitution, still going on. the law is good for nothing.

it's a corrupt government anyway that breaks its own laws. the only people who can legally break the law are those in power.

[Kifle]

So tell me, how is it NOT selfish that people who think it smells bad have had smokers pushed out of public areas and near any type of doorway?

I don't think anybody is being denied access to public areas, they simply cannot smoke in those areas. Smoking is a choice. People do not have to smoke.

- Mike

And being in a public place is just as much a choice. Being around a smoker is a choice. People don't have to go to these public places or stand next to these smokers.

[Kifle]

Wow, that is so retarded. that's why i can't stand laws because it's like they're a mindless entity that rules over our common sense.

Yes, but who's common sense? I don't mind it ruling over convict x's common sense.

TEf, convict x doesn't follow the law anyway, otherwise he wouldn't be a convict. in fact, most people in jail have been there before. so they are continually breaking the law, which makes the law even more worthless.

edit:

look i'm just trying to say that people are going to do what they want. the law may put them in jail, but they are still doing what they want. drugs are illegal but people still do them, prostitution, still going on. the law is good for nothing.

it's a corrupt government anyway that breaks its own laws. the only people who can legally break the law are those in power.

Muma, if law were useless and people will do what they want anyway, why do you pay for anything you own? I mean, if theft were legal, I'd just steal me a plasma screen tv. I sure do want one. The fact is, convicts don't listen to the voice that tells them they shouldn't do X because it's immoral or illegal.

[Yarash]

And being in a public place is just as much a choice. Being around a smoker is a choice. People don't have to go to these public places or stand next to these smokers.

People need to be in public areas to conduct business and go about their lives. People do not need to smoke.

- Mike

[Kifle]

And being in a public place is just as much a choice. Being around a smoker is a choice. People don't have to go to these public places or stand next to these smokers.

People need to be in public areas to conduct business and go about their lives. People do not need to smoke.

- Mike

Do they need to be in, say, a public park? How about in front of my apartment building? Why can't the non smoker just move over, say, 20 feet or so? When you boil it down, you're making the smoker do something extra because of one of his/her habits; however, you don't see this with other bad habits like chewing tobacco (spitting), spitting in general, nose picking, etc. They are all dusgusting habits, and, like second hand smoke in the open air, is pretty much harmless.

[teflor the ranger]

so they are continually breaking the law, which makes the law even more worthless.

Yes, and that's why you need a government.

[muma]

Wow, that is so retarded. that's why i can't stand laws because it's like they're a mindless entity that rules over our common sense.

Yes, but who's common sense? I don't mind it ruling over convict x's common sense.

TEf, convict x doesn't follow the law anyway, otherwise he wouldn't be a convict. in fact, most people in jail have been there before. so they are continually breaking the law, which makes the law even more worthless.

edit:

look i'm just trying to say that people are going to do what they want. the law may put them in jail, but they are still doing what they want. drugs are illegal but people still do them, prostitution, still going on. the law is good for nothing.

it's a corrupt government anyway that breaks its own laws. the only people who can legally break the law are those in power.

Muma, if law were useless and people will do what they want anyway, why do you pay for anything you own? I mean, if theft were legal, I'd just steal me a plasma screen tv. I sure do want one. The fact is, convicts don't listen to the voice that tells them they shouldn't do X because it's immoral or illegal.

Well, IF there were no law, then people would have to take matters into their own hands. and form tribes. and i think that is best. just an opinion

also, in case you hadn't noticed, my initials spell LAW, heheheh

[Ambar]

Edited:

to remove personal observations over OOC :P

[Corth]

Shrug.. just about all ideas are derivative in some way. We don't live in a vacuum. I haven't seen anything said by Muma that would indicate she isn't capable of independent thought. Quite the opposite actually.

[teflor the ranger]

and form tribes. and i think that is best. just an opinion

Well, I for one like that idea. But my tribe is sweet.

[Ambar]

o ROFL .. no brainer here??

Surgeon General Warns of Secondhand Smoke

[ssar]

o ROFL .. no brainer here??

Surgeon General Warns of Secondhand Smoke

Yep.

[Nurpy Fuzzyfeet]

Kifle...LOL...

*I* should move 20 or so feet away from a smoker in a public place while they breathe a poisonous substance into their lungs. *I* have to conform to their needs because they have an addiction, and I don't care to take part in it. I guess I'm just not that tolerant of smokers, it's their own responsibility to keep their poison away from me, not the other way around.

Second hand smoke isn't addictive, but it is harmful, your precious proof is in the link above.

[Thilindel]

...They are all dusgusting habits, and, like second hand smoke in the open air, is pretty much harmless.

"The debate is over. The science is clear: Secondhand smoke is not a mere annoyance, but a serious health hazard."

Hrm! Where's my justice scales? I'll put kifle on one side and the SG in the other :P

[teflor the ranger]

o ROFL .. no brainer here??

Surgeon General Warns of Secondhand Smoke

That's just what the government wants you to think Ambar! That and 767's that were military 707's, as well as buckling up saving your life.

Bah, I say! Bah!

[ssar]

[Corth]

that picture is really disturbing. :(