I bet most of you wont read the whole thing..

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
daggaz
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I bet most of you wont read the whole thing..

Postby daggaz » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:54 pm

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Here you go, a peer-reviewed scientific journal as to why the collapse of the WTC towers and WTC7 was most likely by controlled demolition, and why the official government story is a certain lie.

Its rather long, but not impossible to read for anybody who has had first year physics courses... he does his best to make it understandable to even the average layman really. I found it very interesting.

But oh you say, the 9-11 commission already covered all this??

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/571-page-lie.htm

115 ommissions and outright lies found in the report. You would need to get a copy of the report to check it all yourself, but considering this has been published and the author has NOT been sued as of yet... and that these accusations are repeatedly brought up, even sometimes in the mainstream media.. well.. its a short read, why not skim it real quick?
Last edited by daggaz on Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:58 pm

I'm sorry, but ... which peer-reviewed scientific journal is this PUBLISHED IN?

Physica? Reviews in Modern Physics? PNAS? Or hell even Advanced Materials?

Oh wait. None of the above.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:11 pm

i knew you wouldnt read it.

try reading it before you lambast its contents.

the guy is a PhD of physics at Brigham Young University.

Our university PhD's have other university PhDs read their papers, and yeah, they can then be published in various journals.

Does it matter which journal this one is or is not published in? I would think its the contents that matter most..

But you are right, so far I cant find *this* article, tho he is published in plenty of other journals, like 'Physics Letters' and the 'Journal of ElectroAnalytical Chemistry,' so he is a respected scientist.

Considering the highly sensitive nature of this particular article, it shouldnt be too surprising not to find it published. People are still losing their jobs in the states for merely mentioning this belief. (GO 1st amendment, go USA!)

As it is, I just emailed the guy asking him which journal its published in, and if not, why? I'll post that shortly. In the meantime Tef, try actually reading something before you judge it.
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Postby Corth » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:40 am

Sarvis?

Is that you?
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Postby Cirath » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:21 am

You're right, I won't read the whole thing. In fact, I didn't even finish your post. Controlled demolition or not, it doesn't much matter. So long as I don't have to listen to people moan over it all the time, I am happy.
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Postby rylan » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:26 am

When does the post come citing peer reviewed evidance that the pentagon was hit by a missile and not a plane?
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Postby Osheara » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:49 am

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1288263801

I do find that people's reactions to things like this are very interesting. The defensive as well as the excited. And yes, most of the time people don't finish reading it or watching things, or looking up anything else before they start getting judgemental. Discussions are good. Judgemental, not so much.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:23 am

daggaz wrote:i knew you wouldnt read it.

try reading it before you lambast its contents.

the guy is a PhD of physics at Brigham Young University.

Our university PhD's have other university PhDs read their papers, and yeah, they can then be published in various journals.

Does it matter which journal this one is or is not published in? I would think its the contents that matter most..

But you are right, so far I cant find *this* article, tho he is published in plenty of other journals, like 'Physics Letters' and the 'Journal of ElectroAnalytical Chemistry,' so he is a respected scientist.

Considering the highly sensitive nature of this particular article, it shouldnt be too surprising not to find it published. People are still losing their jobs in the states for merely mentioning this belief. (GO 1st amendment, go USA!)

As it is, I just emailed the guy asking him which journal its published in, and if not, why? I'll post that shortly. In the meantime Tef, try actually reading something before you judge it.


I have already read the entire thing. You are just ignorant.

By the way, you can't call one guy's paper posted on the internet as being a "peer-reviewed journal." In order to call it that, it would have to actually be a scientifically respected periodical (regularly published media/books/magazines/papers).

The correct title for this article is PAPER

Where, in fact, if you even bothered to read the article yourself, the AUTHOR offers an "MS Word Version of the Paper" in the second line of text, and the title of the webpage is: "In this paper I question the "official" story that the collapses of the high-rise World Trade C"

By claiming that it is a peer-reviewed journal, you lend it scientific credibility that it does not have or deserve.

Daggaz, try actually reading something so you'll know what you're talking about before you spew it on the boards. You might also want to point out where I lambasted the paper's contents (which I never did, learn to read).
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:49 am

I didn't read it due to it being posted by Daggaz *shrug* First bi-polar diagnosed dude I'd ever met over the internet. Just look at how everybody responds to him!
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Postby daggaz » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:28 am

Tef: Considering you responded to the original post within about 3 minutes of my posting it, I at that time SERIOUSLY doubted you had read even a fraction of the article. As to it being a peer-reviewed paper, the author himself makes this claim, and if you read the beginning a little more carefully you will see that it was published privately, and reviewed twice due to additional information being added. As to who exactly his peers are, I could only surmise that they are other scientists and colleagues; I did email him as to this and am waiting for a response.

But beyond attacking the messenger, be it me, or the credentials of the man who actually wrote the article (which is lambasting the contents Tef, by default), do you have anything, ANYTHING at all to say about the actual contents? What do you think about the EVIDENCE presented? Can you find faults or even outright lies in the information presented? Do you think the point made is well substantiated, 50-50, vauge at best, or downright lies, and WHY?

Thil: ... I'm not bi-polar, whatever. Even if I was, its not me who wrote this article.

The other guy who said 'who cares, its not like we can do anything about it':

The whole point is that we can do something about it. Trying to break thru the vicious polarization surrounding this topic is a good start. Bringing up an actual debate based on the documented facts, minus the left vs right, conspiracy nut vs 'true patriot' etc bullshite is another good start. And realizing you still live in a working democracy for the time being is a REAL good start. America was created and evolved by the popular revolution. There's still time for another one.
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:33 pm

I saw a TV program about it, that is proof enough for me.
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Postby Vaprak » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:43 pm

I read the entire article, and much of the sources it draws information from such as nearly everything on wtc7.com.

think it is plausible to believe that the building collapses were controlled demolitions due to:
a) no other steel frame structure has ever collapsed due to a fire. EVER. Yet 3 buildings within 300 yards of one another all had it happen supposedly within 7 hours of one another, even though none of them were totally engulfed in flames. There were many fires before 2001 that never brought down one of these structures and many fires have happened since then that also caused massive damage but no complete collapse of the structure. Many of these fires burned a multitude of time longer than the WTC buildings while covering many more floors in their entirety. In fact, one of the WTC buildings had burned before with a much more intense fire that covered many more floors of the building and it didn't collapse then.
b) Structural steel doesn't melt until over 2000C. The hottest possible AIR temperature in the towers, even with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel that would have burned completely off in less than 20 minutes would be around 1000C. During the NIST findings they admited that of all the samples of the structural steel members they could not identify a single member that had been heated above 250C, which is not even hot enough for the steel to even bend,
c) Neither the NIST, FEMA, or UL were able to duplicate the results of a hydrocarbon fire causing complete building collapse in either laboratory enviroments or realistic computer modeling without disregarding completely the ability of the core support structure mounted to solid Manhattan bedrock comprised of 6 massive support columns, which in turn were made of numerous 36"x16"x 2" thick steel beams to hold up regardless of whatever type of model they used to attempt to bring down the building.
d) it takes a lot of skill, engineering, and practice to get a enormous building to collapse and land nearly completely within itself. It rarely ever happens on its own due to the timing it takes to completely sever all support columns at exactly the same time in a specific pattern, and finally
e) the 911 reports disregard numerous counts of witness testimony such as the numerous explosions heard leading up to the collapses and also the video that shows areas 10-20 stories below the collapsing portion of the buildings being blown out sideways.

Now, there could be some perfectly logical explanation as to why all of these points were scientifically ignored in the findings by FEMA that were added to the 911report and why almost NONE of the science in the FEMA reports makes any sense at all.

However, as far as most of the 911 conspiracy theorists that believe there were no planes at all that hit the towers, pentagon, or the field in PA I think they're high on crack as nearly every witness testimonial other than the very few edited responses they purport to support their evidence clearly state that planes were to blame and they were all identified by the carrier company.

So yeah, I don't really know what to make of all of this, but it certainly is interesting and does raise nearly 10x as many questions as it does answer. I don't honestly believe that the government killed thousands of its own civillians just so that it had justification to start a global war. It certainly was an intersting read though.
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Postby Ruxur » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:49 pm

tin foil hats anyone?


Think about the accusations you are making, they are out of line and your disgusting for making them. Reading stuff like this really makes me angry.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:48 pm

Ruxur wrote: Reading stuff like this really makes me angry.


That's funny, I figured something like THIS would make you really angry :P
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 66&start=0
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:02 pm

daggaz wrote:Tef: Considering you responded to the original post within about 3 minutes of my posting it, I at that time SERIOUSLY doubted you had read even a fraction of the article.


You would assume that you are the only person 'special' enough to have come across said article before.

daggaz wrote:As to it being a peer-reviewed paper, the author himself makes this claim, and if you read the beginning a little more carefully you will see that it was published privately, and reviewed twice due to additional information being added.


Yet no information as to where and when it was published.

daggaz wrote:As to who exactly his peers are, I could only surmise that they are other scientists and colleagues; I did email him as to this and am waiting for a response.


We all have peers. Peer-review typically means that others qualified in your field can reproduce your results. This does not exactly qualify as a peer-reviewable paper, as it is not written in such a way that others may come to the same conclusions with the so-called data presented (what data? exactly).

daggaz wrote:But beyond attacking the messenger, be it me, or the credentials of the man who actually wrote the article (which is lambasting the contents Tef, by default)


No, I was simply attacking you and have not lambasted the contents of the paper. You are the biggest detriment to your own cause. Your ignorance in misrepresenting the paper is the biggest problem with your post. Attacking your style and your message is never lambasting the contents of your source. If you misquoted the New York Times and I blasted you for it, I am not attacking the New York Times. Nice try, but learn to read.

daggaz wrote:do you have anything, ANYTHING at all to say about the actual contents?


Do you? I mean other than "I bet most of you wont read the whole thing.."

daggaz wrote:What do you think about the EVIDENCE presented? Can you find faults or even outright lies in the information presented? Do you think the point made is well substantiated, 50-50, vauge at best, or downright lies, and WHY?


This is a good question and not one I have tried to get into. I may later in the day when I get a few spare moments to read his sources.
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Postby Ruxur » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:40 pm

Thilindel wrote:
Ruxur wrote: Reading stuff like this really makes me angry.


That's funny, I figured something like THIS would make you really angry :P
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 66&start=0


haha that just made me laugh, even though the joke is on me, its great to be involved in one of the best bbs threads ever.
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Postby Vaprak » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:10 pm

Ruxur wrote:tin foil hats anyone?


Think about the accusations you are making, they are out of line and your disgusting for making them. Reading stuff like this really makes me angry.


Although a lot of this conspiracy theory is FUD, there are several concepts that are based upon scientific proofs, which don't lie in and of themselves. However, I find I do find it impossible to believe that there is a single politician out there that has never told a lie.

While I realize that some people have undying faith in their elected officials, I'm not necesarily one of them. It is my right as a citizen of the United States to have an opinion and freely speek it. Also, given the choice between believing a person who was elected to Washington D.C. or believing scientific data that can be proved I'll take the scientific data any day.

That being said, I don't believe that there were no airplanes. I don't want to believe that the government blew up the buildings. I do believe that the public is not being told the entire story. I do believe that some of the data relating to this atrocity as it has been presented by the government and mainstream media is lacking and in many cases deceitful. I do think that it's a wonderful idea to open our minds to possibilities that exist outside the realm of what is spoon-fed to us on "The News". I also don't believe that it is unpatriotic of me to question authority. I believe the 1st Continental Congress did plenty of questioning their authorities when they decided to defy the British and write the Declaration of Independence.
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Postby Zabam » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:54 pm

"tin foil hats anyone?"

Ha, another urban myth. Its common knowledge that tin foil doesn't stop the Radiofrequency that aliens and governments are using for mind control experiments. I use a small gauge copper mesh hat and that seems to work fine. My buddy Elvis also uses one and not even the Enquirer can pin him down!
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Postby Gormal » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:11 am

http://www.tinwiki.org

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Postby Shar » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:25 am

Zabam wrote:"tin foil hats anyone?"

Ha, another urban myth. Its common knowledge that tin foil doesn't stop the Radiofrequency that aliens and governments are using for mind control experiments. I use a small gauge copper mesh hat and that seems to work fine. My buddy Elvis also uses one and not even the Enquirer can pin him down!


bahahahhaha.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:03 pm

Onlything that bothers me is this :

the jet that hit the Pentagon .. check the *entry wound* .. where were the wings in the scheme of things it seems like the wings would have left horizontal slits into the Pentagon walls (there were none)... and why did they fnd pieces of other, DIFFERENT aircraft at the site and for yards beyond.

I was out of the country for 9/11 .. I was on cruise, aboard the Enterprise and been gone almost 6 months when it happened. I didnt see ANYTHING of the media coverage here at home except what was available onboard on CNN, so am just now, 5 years later, seeing the stuff... so forgive any ignorance of the matter on my part.
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Postby rylan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:27 pm

The plane hit the ground short of the pentagon and skidded into it, with the wings shearing off before impact with the building. The engines were located away from the building before the entry point.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:45 pm

where was the wreckage? from what i heard they couldnt find it
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Postby rylan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:31 pm

Similar to what happened to the plane that crashed in the field in pennsylvania.. a lot of it essentially disintigrated. There was wreckage of engine and tail pieces, and skid marks across the lawn from where the fuselage hit the ground before impacting the bottom floor of the pentagon.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:42 pm

... :P

having seen a plane crash or two .. i know there are always hundreds of pieces scattered all over .. 4 and 5 years later they found pieces of aircraft scattered on buildings roofs all over the WTC site .. yet they find barely anything from the Pentagon's site .. was the Pentagon just *more building* that the WTCs?

just questions i probably will never get the answer to :)

and just ODD the pieces of APU they found was froma DIFFERENT type aircraft that would NEVER have been used in the crashed jet ..

kind aof akin to a VW Beetle crashing into a guardrail then they find Mustang pieces scattered all over ..
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Postby rylan » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:59 pm

I hadn't heard about different types of aircraft pieces found at the site. Yes that is pretty odd.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:58 am

Specifically to the plane wreckage:

http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/plane_vs_wall.html

Some crashes yield an entire plane worth of wreckage. Some leave very little behind.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:52 pm

No kidding Tef :P Both of us are aware of the different types of crashes .. but where the hell did the wings go :) Coming in at the angle the plane came in at, the wings woudl NOT have been dissintegrated .. they would NOT fold in on themselves, so where are they .. why is the hole round, why did windows on the first floor NOT break so close to the crash site .. too many questions for ME to believe it fully ..

why did the parts of the engine found match F-16 engine components .. 757 engines even broken down (illustrated parts breakdown) arent as small as what they found .. yes the tire parts they found do match those of a 757, but a lot of planes use the same tires (F/A-18 and A-6 use the same tires, etc)

I'm not trying to create argument here, I refuse to do that, I just know I worked on airplanes and saw some crash for 20 years.. I KNOW sometimes you only find pieces as large as the palm of your hand... Still none of this matches up with what i KNOW ..

and reading further, I do see where more pieces were found INSIDE the building .. so there are the pieces I didnt know about ..

Again I am only calling out MY personal misgivings here, I wasnt THERE (none of us were) we can only rely on what we read, and Lord knows what we read is skewed by media and other agencies .. we can also find things on google that can support ANYTHING we believe ..
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:20 am

Thilindel wrote:
Ruxur wrote: Reading stuff like this really makes me angry.


That's funny, I figured something like THIS would make you really angry :P
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 66&start=0


*shudder*

God Thil.. why would you do that to me?? I actually followed the link again.

*shudder* *shudder* *shudder*
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:06 am

rofl..maxler's funny so it doesn't hurt! Well, as long as you don't stare at the photo!
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Postby Gruy » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:59 am

I was sure this topic was covered after the 9/11 comission employed scooby doo and the rest of the gang to solve it.. In conclusion a short interview was held with Shaggy where the following was stated:

Comission: Thank you so much Shaggy for taking the time to sit with us and share your findings.

Shaggy: Like wow man, no problem.

Comission: So what conclusion did you and the rest of the "gang" draw?

Shaggy: Well at first we thought it was most definatly airplanes that struck the towers as well as the pentagon.

Comission: Truley?

Shaggy: Like yeah, but then Scoob pointed out to us that there was no way possible 3rd world countried could have organized such an attack!

Comission: Wow really?

Scooby: Reah, uhhehehe, reah!

Shaggy: Yeah when Scoob introduced the idea that it wasent planes but instead some spooky ghosts we all sat in silence for a moment before releasing a unified "zoinks"!

Scooby: Rooby dooby doo!

Comission: Ghosts? This is a completely new theory!

Scooby: Reah!

Shaggy: Like I know man! But it turned out that even our initial theory was wrong!

Comission: Really?

Scooby: Reah! reah!

Shaggy: Like yeah man, it turned on after some hard investigating that crazy old man bush was behind it!

Commision: Bush? as in George Bush? The Preisdent?

Scooby: Reah, reah!!

Shaggy: Yeah man, I was like zoinks when I found out!

Comission: Well this is almost unbelieveable!

Scooby: Reah, reah!!

George Bush: Yeah and I would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for you pesky kids!


Jesus people... Let this go.. If you want to help try donating money to the families who were robbed of thier loved ones from this tragic day.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:32 am

Ambar wrote:No kidding Tef :P Both of us are aware of the different types of crashes .. but where the hell did the wings go :) Coming in at the angle the plane came in at, the wings woudl NOT have been dissintegrated .. they would NOT fold in on themselves, so where are they .. why is the hole round, why did windows on the first floor NOT break so close to the crash site .. too many questions for ME to believe it fully ..

why did the parts of the engine found match F-16 engine components .. 757 engines even broken down (illustrated parts breakdown) arent as small as what they found .. yes the tire parts they found do match those of a 757, but a lot of planes use the same tires (F/A-18 and A-6 use the same tires, etc)

I'm not trying to create argument here, I refuse to do that, I just know I worked on airplanes and saw some crash for 20 years.. I KNOW sometimes you only find pieces as large as the palm of your hand... Still none of this matches up with what i KNOW ..

and reading further, I do see where more pieces were found INSIDE the building .. so there are the pieces I didnt know about ..

Again I am only calling out MY personal misgivings here, I wasnt THERE (none of us were) we can only rely on what we read, and Lord knows what we read is skewed by media and other agencies .. we can also find things on google that can support ANYTHING we believe ..


So, where are the non-standard parts they found? Also, about the wings: aluminum is quite flimsy when it's being used to hold thousands of pounds of jet fuel. Aluminum also has a rather low melting point.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:01 am

What a surprise, then, for such an occurrence in downtown Manhattan— three skyscrapers completely collapsed on the same day, September 11, 2001, presumably without the use of explosives.


That has to be my favourite piece of this 'article'. OMG, I can't imagine what other factor he might be leaving out? He quotes someone as saying most backyard fires only reach 650oC then claims that isn't hot enough to melt structural steel, I guess that's incase you live next door to a skyscraper and are worried about your bon-fire? I can melt 1200oC pottery cones in my backyard BBQ / Makeshift Kiln anyhow. I just use wood to burn, havn't even had to crash a plane into it yet. Then, I can assure you using someone's 'happy snaps' to identify colour temperature of any given metal is kinda pointless. I don't usually respond to this kind of stuff, but I'm just so shocked that I agree with teflor I had to say something. What a sad way to try and make a name for yourself. As far as making him out as some 'respected' guru academic, his 3 published papers are all summaries of presentations from one single conference.
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Postby daggaz » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:59 am

Sarell, the physics of burning materials is extremely well understood., as well as the physics of heating metals and the colors they produce. Different materials burn at different temperatures, period, and they have a maximum temperature you can achieve with them as well. And yes, you can tell how hot a metal is by the color it emits.

There are some other factors that play in fire temperatures as well, such as the way you feed the fire with both fuel and oxygen, and how well the fire is insulated. These factors are taken into account in Jone's report.

That you can melt kiln cones in a homemade kiln isnt very surprising. Your kiln is both insulative, uses coal or even charcoal as a fuel, and finally, controls the air intake to achieve maximum temperatures.... all techniques used to smelt metals since the beginning of metalurgy.. Still, Id like to see you post a video of hitting 1200 celsius in your webber. I dont believe it, and the webber would melt.


As for the Pentagon, there are plenty of issues... the wrong plane part that Ambar is talking about is a wheel well that is clearly identifiable as NOT the proper wheel for that specific plane. There are some links put up by a United Airlines engineer about this specific point.

The main explanation for the hole not being big enough is that yeah, the plane flew directly into the wall at high speed and the swept back wings where quickly folded into the body of the plane, which continued on inwards. This is certainly plausible. A lot of folks would argue, comparing pictures of the WTC impacts, where the wings made clear impressions in the buildings facade. But then, you do have to remember that the Pentagon is a heavily reinforced building, designed to withstand impacts like this. Crumply thin aluminum wings, full of fuel or not, probably arent gonna hold out too well.

The BIG issue with the Pentagon (besides the nearly impossible flight trajectory as emphatically pointed out by many, many senior pilots, as well as the point that the supposed hijacker pilot was widely known to be almost completely incompetent and failed various tests at the flight school)
isn't the diamater of the hole, its the depth.

There is a senior military official, he's an expert on explosives, especially in their use in bunker busting missiles (im real sorry i cant remember his name atm, try googling it) who's biggest gripe is that the DEPTH of the hole. That flight managed to burn its way thru several rings of the pentagon, each wall a very thick, heavily reinforced steel and concrete barrier, leaving wide circular holes in each one. According to him, the aluminum + jet fuel would have quickly vaporized upon impact with the first wall, and should have been stopped by the second wall, perhaps barely penetrating that barrier at best.

That there was enough material (aluminum is NOT dense enough and doesn't burn hot enough) to cut thru three barriers is damning physical proof that it wasn't a commercial jet.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:29 am

Hey Daggaz, couldn't it be possible that this entire "conspiracy" thing is in itself another conspiracy created to try and undermine the government? The 9/11 comission didn't have all of the internet evidence to go on though, so you're probably right anyway.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:30 am

daggaz wrote:Sarell, the physics of burning materials is extremely well understood., as well as the physics of heating metals and the colors they produce. Different materials burn at different temperatures, period, and they have a maximum temperature you can achieve with them as well. And yes, you can tell how hot a metal is by the color it emits.

There are some other factors that play in fire temperatures as well, such as the way you feed the fire with both fuel and oxygen, and how well the fire is insulated. These factors are taken into account in Jone's report.

That you can melt kiln cones in a homemade kiln isnt very surprising. Your kiln is both insulative, uses coal or even charcoal as a fuel, and finally, controls the air intake to achieve maximum temperatures.... all techniques used to smelt metals since the beginning of metalurgy.. Still, Id like to see you post a video of hitting 1200 celsius in your webber. I dont believe it, and the webber would melt.


I know the science of colour of metal is quite good. I have a bachelors degree with honours in photography. Hence why I am bothering to make a statement because I thought I might actually be able to crontibute something useful.

Also, I teach art, my home kiln was made of concrete bricks, and dug into the ground a bit, and I use wood to fire it as stated. Pottery cones tell you how hot your fire is without needing an expensive thermometer. You can hit 1200 easily. The WTC I bet had thicker concrete than my kiln, and more stuff to burn, and went deeper into the ground; I'm saying his comparison to a 650oC backyard fire was kinda pointless. As was much of the non-logical garbage thrown in to the argument to make him sound witty. I don't deny it is interesting, but I wouldn't take it as gospel, unless you want one of those awesome tin hats posted in the links.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:37 am

teflor the ranger wrote:So, where are the non-standard parts they found? Also, about the wings: aluminum is quite flimsy when it's being used to hold thousands of pounds of jet fuel. Aluminum also has a rather low melting point.


Tire and the piece of engine .. also fuel is not stored in the whole wing, just the wing butt .. I still fail to see how whole wing conplete with spars can fold into the fuselage .. the jet didnt come straight in but came in at a 45 degree angle, different stresses on the wings in different places ..

Gruy, I stated before I was NOT in the country during the time of 9/11 .. I was on cruise .. media out there is what they WANT us to see .. I recently watched a documentary about the events and it just struck some questions into my head .. If I was HERE not in the Arabian Gulf I MAY have asked these questions 5 years ago ... lemme tell ya flying ovcer the Arabian gulf in unarmed aircraft the week afterward was SCARY!

Again, I'm not arguing consipracies or whatever, I am asking questions of people who were actually here and watched the events unfold AS THEY happened...
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:10 pm

What type of fire does a burning aircraft constitute, what is the primary method of combatting that fire, and why?

Answer: Class Delta fire due to various parts of the aircraft (see: magnesium) and the like that will burn right through the steel deck on a Naval ship. Method of firefighting - jettison the plane overboard before it does damage to the ship, or on land you just let it burn itself out (like a car with mag wheels).

Granted that fighter planes have different components than a commercial airliner, but shouldn't they burn essentially the same way? Either way, once metal starts to burn, you're fucked. I'm not the plane expert that Jen is so maybe she can shed more light on this.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:48 am

Did any of you bother to watch the video Osheara posted?

I found it a lot more interesting than anything Michael Moore could produce.

The simple fact that the gov't refuses to actually divuldge information pertaining to the incident is reason enough for me to ask questions. I refuse to believe that there isn't more video evidence out there of these events, particularly the pentagon crash. Not to mention the fact that the FBI itself couldn't get its own information straight and several times was contradictory in its statements.

There is a crapload of evidence pointing to a coverup of information related to the entire incident.
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Postby Osheara » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:09 pm

A bit more info on the Author.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

Apparently the article is scheduled to be published publically in Sep 2006.

Some Posted reviews concerning his article:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Comm ... y2006.html

Some of those are in favor and support, some are not.

For those not familiar with Morgan Reynolds
http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=bio


This link provides an interesting number of people that are easily researched with varying positions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Researcher ... nt_of_9/11

I just find it interesting that there are such a high number of people in quite high places in our society, with significant positions where they can research this sort of thing, and yet people so quickly will scoff and not even come up with their own equally researched disputes to the accusations. And I am referring to various responses in our mud community. We play games. If you have the education and/or just other responses other than, 'you are dumb' I know myself and others would prolly love to hear it. I find respect falling quickly when someone desides to say (more or less) 'you're wrong and stupid for even thinking of such a thing' without explaining why they feel that way.

Since when is it wrong to see things that don't add up and deside to question that?

I hear from witnesses that police enter a church on sunday morning and pull well known members from the service, in front of the community because they are illegal immigrants. They take them away, refusing any attempts to claim their children in children's church. They made them leave the children! This happened 30 min from my home in Florida. So yes, I question things. Do I think it's right that they were here illegally? No. Do I question the motives and process they used in that situation? yes. Do I question the fact that if this happened here, in this one instance, could it happen again? absolutely.

Amazing that this new thing was passed, (I say thing cause I'm rushing to get to work and don't have time to look up specifics I don't remember) that makes it cheaper for companies to have Mexican employees. They don't have to pay Social Security now. They claim this was done to help american citizens who go to work in Mexico. Inadvertadly, this directly increases the benefits of possible illegal immigrants to work for them. Which at least I thought they were trying to prevent.

I personally, see these things, and I question. Hearing Colin Powell speak in my city, I respect that man more than most in my government. When he can't say he supports the president in many issues now, it makes me wonder.

There's nothing wrong with questioning your own government. they should be able to provide you with answers. The question is, when they can't, what do you do.
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:33 pm

Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".
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Postby Osheara » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:49 pm

"In April 2006, BYU removed those statements from their website following a letter saying that Jones' paper was, indeed, peer reviewed." In response to their claims he did not have the technical peer reviews which led to their disagreements on his hypothesis

and he is apparently able to file a complaint to the American Society of Civil Engineers due to other statements made as well...

"The views in this paper are the sole responsibility of the author (not Brigham Young University)." which is also something to acknowledge. He never claimed to write this based on what the college as a whole agrees.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:04 pm

What I find most entertaining is what you all choose to believe and not believe.
the whole "the tire that doesn't belong" was funny. Personally I didn't find a tire in that spot did you? So you believe that to be true because.....um why? someone said it was true, oh wait you saw it on tv, if it's on tv it must be true. Ever see the new spare tires that come with you car? maybe it was a spare. Hell I dunno maybe it fell off a different airplane that flew over that spot. For every person that has evidence that they are "correct" there is at least one that can prove them wrong.

Maybe war of the worlds wasn't just a radio show.....
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:24 pm

Image
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the corrupterment

Postby muma » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:44 am

Ok, i've watched national geographic a few times where they show professional guys blow up buildings to make them collapse on themselves.

it takes a large crew of people and a lot of time and preparation to make a building collapse on itself (And Many Bombs all over the building).

it's very stressful too, cause things can easily go wrong, even for professionals whose job it is to blow up old buildings. .... because they don't want the building to affect other buildings etc. these guys KNOW what they're doing.

also, i think if you were to look at the american government in an unbiased point of view. from the outside looking in. you would notice that it's kind of shady and corrupt in the first place. it's a super power, and everyone knows that with power comes corruption and greed
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:17 am

You can get corruption and greed from a burger flipper at Burger King :P It's human nature :)
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Postby Corth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:04 am

Am I missing something here? Wasn't a 747 jumbo jet video taped as it plowed into each building before thousands of witnesses? And yet, this was supposedly a controlled demolition?

Occam's razor anyone?
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:48 am

Corth wrote:Am I missing something here? Wasn't a 747 jumbo jet video taped as it plowed into each building before thousands of witnesses? And yet, this was supposedly a controlled demolition?

Occam's razor anyone?


Well since no one on the plane could tell us what type of plane it was...

Seriously, you think people can correctly identify the type/size of a plane that hit a building 80 floors in the air, from a scant few seconds of videotape footage? There is no question the buildings were hit by aircraft, the questions lie with what type/callsign etc. these aircraft were.

It would be fairly hard to cover up a controlled demolition of the 2nd highest structures in North America without at least a plausible scapegoat. The fact that these buildings imploded on themselves speaks more to the fact that it wasn't a random occurance than anything.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:34 pm

All the videos I've seen of building being brought down, start from the bottom and is over pretty quickly. TWC started at the top and took a while before it all came down compared to a "controled demolition". Besides all that, the video was doctored, it was in fact a Space ship, and as we all know when they explode they create a vacuum a mini black hole if you will. The real cover up is to hide the Alien remains, you think Men is Black was just a movie?

Watch less news and more Star Trek
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Postby Corth » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:19 pm

Tasan,

Occam's razor.

Two possible scenarios. Which one is more likely on their face?

A) Terrorist flies big plane into building. Building collapses.

B) Shadowy figures in the US Government conspire to destroy two of the largest most important structures in new york, killing over 3,000 people and sending the economy into a recession, in order to justify going to war in afghanistan and Iraq and having thousands more people killed there, for an unknown motive. In order to hide their complicity, they arrange an amazing spectacle of having two seemingly jumbo airplanes (but quite possibly small cesnas) crash into the buildings 45 minutes or so before the controlled detonation, and in doing so, they fool thousands of eyewitnesses, and billions of people watching it on TV, into thinking the airplanes caused the destruction of the buildings.

A questions about the second scenario. If the shadowy figures in the US government do not care about destruction of property and death, and the impact this all had on our economy, then how come a controlled demolition? Wouldn't it be easier to just mimick the previous 1993 plot with a larger explosive and bring down the building quickly and apparently more plausibly? Why goto the trouble of concealing hundreds of smaller charges throughout the buildings (using, presumably, a whole lot of manpower who are now involved in the conspiracy), rather than just doing it terrorist style?

Its unfortunate.. but the fact that this is even subject to any type of serious debate is a victory for leftist tin foil hat / european conspiracy lunacy, and also indicates that people think what they see in hollywood movies actually happens in real life. Get real!
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