microsoft genuine advantage

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Demuladon
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microsoft genuine advantage

Postby Demuladon » Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:37 pm

Anyone know if it is necessary to install this latest 'critical update'?

I read the licence agreement and it appears that this update does nothing other than gather system information and phone it home to MS by stealth.






Microsoft Genuine Advantage Licence Agreement wrote:a. Consent for Internet-Based Services. The software feature described below connects to Microsoft or service provider computer systems over the Internet. In some cases, you will not receive a separate notice when they connect. You may switch off this feature or not use it. For more information about this feature, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=56310. By using this feature, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you.
i. Computer Information. The software uses Internet protocols, which sends to Microsoft computer information, such as your Windows XP product key, PC manufacturer, operating system version, Windows XP product ID, PC BIOS information, user locale setting, and language version of Windows XP.
ii. Use of Information. We may use the computer information to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software.


Malware anyone??
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:42 pm

Pretty much, yeah it's spyware. You can't use windows update without having WGA installed, but you could use alternatives like www.windizupdate.com.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:20 pm

I see it more as copy protection than spyware.

Imagine this was a computergame, then the supplier says that now there is a patch, but all it does is give better copy protection. Nobody would install it. Therefore microsoft have tried to make some silly "value" offers to genuine users.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:15 pm

It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent. How is that not spyware?
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:17 am

Sarvis wrote:It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent. How is that not spyware?


you downloaded it without someone holding a gun to your head ...
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:35 am

Ambar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent. How is that not spyware?


you downloaded it without someone holding a gun to your head ...


By that logic there's no such thing as spyware. Plus you ARE forced to download it, or give up automatic updates which are necessary to keep your computer secure. (Unless you do some research and find something like the link I posted.)

Besides which, I didn't download it. :P
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:13 am

The difference is that Microsoft SAYS that it's not spyware, of course.

Duh, that seemed obvious.




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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:35 am

Sarvis wrote:It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent.


Microsoft Genuine Advantage Licence Agreement wrote:a. Consent for Internet-Based Services. The software feature described below connects to Microsoft or service provider computer systems over the Internet. In some cases, you will not receive a separate notice when they connect. You may switch off this feature or not use it. For more information about this feature, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=56310. By using this feature, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you.
i. Computer Information. The software uses Internet protocols, which sends to Microsoft computer information, such as your Windows XP product key, PC manufacturer, operating system version, Windows XP product ID, PC BIOS information, user locale setting, and language version of Windows XP.
ii. Use of Information. We may use the computer information to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software.



By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.

If you purchased (or in many cases pirated) windows expecting it to be flawless and completely secure, you're just ignorant and there's no one to blame but you.
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Postby Minofagal » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:56 am

Ashiwi wrote:The difference is that Microsoft SAYS that it's not spyware, of course.



just because it Microsoft says it isn't doesn't mean it ISN'T!!






*wink*

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Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:28 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent.


Microsoft Genuine Advantage Licence Agreement wrote:a. Consent for Internet-Based Services. The software feature described below connects to Microsoft or service provider computer systems over the Internet. In some cases, you will not receive a separate notice when they connect. You may switch off this feature or not use it. For more information about this feature, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=56310. By using this feature, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you.
i. Computer Information. The software uses Internet protocols, which sends to Microsoft computer information, such as your Windows XP product key, PC manufacturer, operating system version, Windows XP product ID, PC BIOS information, user locale setting, and language version of Windows XP.
ii. Use of Information. We may use the computer information to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software.



By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.

If you purchased (or in many cases pirated) windows expecting it to be flawless and completely secure, you're just ignorant and there's no one to blame but you.


Just ignore part ii. tef, I'm sure your little assault would work just as good if you didn't though, right? I'm sure microsoft is just handing the information out for free to help hardware and software vendors make us better products. I'm sure it has nothing to do with profiting off of your personal information -- nothing at all.
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Postby ssar » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:31 pm

That MS genuine "advantage" thingy appears to be a relatively new MS intiative and an integral part of the official online MS windows update.

It picked up an illegal installation of winXP Home I attempted to setup on a PC the other day, and even after trying 4 different product keys which windows intially accepted as valid, the genuine test detected them as illegal and prevented any more online MS updates.

Seems to be cracking down on illegal/hacked/cracked winxp installations.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:46 pm

ssar wrote:That MS genuine "advantage" thingy appears to be a relatively new MS intiative and an integral part of the official online MS windows update.

It picked up an illegal installation of winXP Home I attempted to setup on a PC the other day, and even after trying 4 different product keys which windows intially accepted as valid, the genuine test detected them as illegal and prevented any more online MS updates.

Seems to be cracking down on illegal/hacked/cracked winxp installations.


Seems to be? No, that's _exactly_ what it's supposed to do. The problem is that it's invasive about it. There's also the small fact that anyone smart enough to crack windows is also smart enough to find ways around WGA, so it really only creates issues for legitimate users.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:04 pm

Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:It sends information about your computer to someone without your knowledge or consent.


Microsoft Genuine Advantage Licence Agreement wrote:a. Consent for Internet-Based Services. The software feature described below connects to Microsoft or service provider computer systems over the Internet. In some cases, you will not receive a separate notice when they connect. You may switch off this feature or not use it. For more information about this feature, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=56310. By using this feature, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you.
i. Computer Information. The software uses Internet protocols, which sends to Microsoft computer information, such as your Windows XP product key, PC manufacturer, operating system version, Windows XP product ID, PC BIOS information, user locale setting, and language version of Windows XP.
ii. Use of Information. We may use the computer information to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software.



By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.

If you purchased (or in many cases pirated) windows expecting it to be flawless and completely secure, you're just ignorant and there's no one to blame but you.


Just ignore part ii. tef, I'm sure your little assault would work just as good if you didn't though, right? I'm sure microsoft is just handing the information out for free to help hardware and software vendors make us better products. I'm sure it has nothing to do with profiting off of your personal information -- nothing at all.


I don't see what this has to do with the user's knowledge or consent. In fact, it seems as if they do indeed tell you.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:46 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.


Name ONE other piece of software which will only allow updates if it can periodically send information about your computer to someone first.

None exist.

If you purchased (or in many cases pirated) windows expecting it to be flawless and completely secure, you're just ignorant and there's no one to blame but you.


Straw man much? No one ever said Windows was, or could be, flawless and secure.

I don't see what this has to do with the user's knowledge or consent. In fact, it seems as if they do indeed tell you.


Really? When? I just downloaded and installed WGA, and NO LICENSE ACCEPTANCE SCREEN WAS SHOWN. I suspect it doesn't show up if you get it with automatic updates either, or if you choose the express install option.

You may be able to look up the information, but you are most certainly NOT told.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:52 pm

I have some aluminum foil if your hat is getting low ...
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:01 am

Ambar wrote:I have some aluminum foil if your hat is getting low ...


Where exactly is the conspiracy theory here? All I see is somebody getting upset at windows making you agree to trade your personal information so they can sell it -- just so you can get updates. It's extortion.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:59 am

Okay, I noticed the option to turn this "feature" off, but will it really not allow updates if you don't use it?

If it won't, then I'm in absolute, total agreement with Carl and Sarvis. Multitudes of people plunked down cash for this program, a program that included an update feature when it was purchased, without agreeing to have to allow this kind of invasion of privacy. Making something like this a requirement to run software that was purchased prior to this point should be flat-out illegal.

Even if that's not the case, I'm sorry, but this is spyware, plain and simple, just like any spyware program that anti-virus programs have been created to root out of your system for years, now. Putting a multi-billion dollar brand name on it doesn't make it any less spyware, just like putting the name "Jordache" on a fat ass never made weigh any less.

Conspiracy theory, or not, other companies come up with garbage like this and people are quick to condemn them for what they're doing. For years Microsoft has touted their software for preventing the exact thing they're writing into it now.

It's damned hypocritical. It's a perfect example of a large company doing something they would never let anybody else get away with, just because they can.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:20 am

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.


Name ONE other piece of software which will only allow updates if it can periodically send information about your computer to someone first.

None exist.


False as usual, Sarvis. Sony's DRM rootkit transmits a unique identifier (specific to CD and PC) before it gets new song lyrics and to check to see if a new content banner is available.

Sarvis wrote:
I don't see what this has to do with the user's knowledge or consent. In fact, it seems as if they do indeed tell you.


Really? When? I just downloaded and installed WGA, and NO LICENSE ACCEPTANCE SCREEN WAS SHOWN. I suspect it doesn't show up if you get it with automatic updates either, or if you choose the express install option.

You may be able to look up the information, but you are most certainly NOT told.


False again. I recently went to download WGA and a notice pops up with the same licence agreement that Demuladon came up with. Apparently, everyone has seen this notice except for you. I can only assume that you just don't know how to read.

Nevermind that it did actually tell me, Microsoft has a general terms of use agreement for it's website and for Windows Update:

http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.mspx

Microsoft wrote:NOTICE SPECIFIC TO SOFTWARE AVAILABLE ON THIS WEB SITE.
Any software that is made available to download from the Services ("Software") is the copyrighted work of Microsoft and/or its suppliers. Use of the Software is governed by the terms of the end user license agreement, if any, which accompanies or is included with the Software ("License Agreement"). An end user will be unable to install any Software that is accompanied by or includes a License Agreement, unless he or she first agrees to the License Agreement terms.


I hate to say it, Sarvis, but if you can't read - that's your problem. Microsoft is not liable, nor is it a contractually bad-faith entity.


Furthermore, in the original Windows XP EULA (for Ashiwi):

WinXP EULA wrote:There are technological measures in this Product that are designed to prevent unlicensed or illegal use of the Product. You agree that we may use those measures.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:30 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:By the way, asking for proof of ownership in order to recieve updates that improve security and add features is -not- unusual, nor is it forcing you to do anything.


Name ONE other piece of software which will only allow updates if it can periodically send information about your computer to someone first.

None exist.


False as usual, Sarvis. Sony's DRM rootkit transmits a unique identifier (specific to CD and PC) before it gets new song lyrics and to check to see if a new content banner is available.


I'm sorry, you're right. I failed to be specific enough. I should have specified you had to come up with another piece of software that <i>wasn't also spyware</i>. Silly me, thinking that would be self-evident.


teflor the ranger wrote:I hate to say it, Sarvis, but if you can't read - that's your problem. Microsoft is not liable, nor is it a contractually bad-faith entity.


You see that when you have automatic updates active, and never even visit the web site? Impressive.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:32 am

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I hate to say it, Sarvis, but if you can't read - that's your problem. Microsoft is not liable, nor is it a contractually bad-faith entity.


You see that when you have automatic updates active, and never even visit the web site? Impressive.


WinXP EULA wrote:Microsoft reserves the right to discontinue any Internet-based services provided to you or made available to you through the use of the Product.


Windows Automatic Update Help File wrote:You might be asked to accept an End User License Agreement (EULA) before certain updates can be installed.


And by the way, you are still told with automatic updates. Get your facts.. straight? Hell just get facts and learn how to read.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:44 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I hate to say it, Sarvis, but if you can't read - that's your problem. Microsoft is not liable, nor is it a contractually bad-faith entity.


You see that when you have automatic updates active, and never even visit the web site? Impressive.


WinXP EULA wrote:Microsoft reserves the right to discontinue any Internet-based services provided to you or made available to you through the use of the Product.


Windows Automatic Update Help File wrote:You might be asked to accept an End User License Agreement (EULA) before certain updates can be installed.


And by the way, you are still told with automatic updates. Get your facts.. straight? Hell just get facts and learn how to read.


As I said, I did not see the license agreement when I downloaded WGA. Sorry if the test I just ran contradicts your baseless opinions.

And what does the WinXP EULA have to do with not seeing the WGA license anyway?

Oh, and another little tidbit I found is that initially the WGA license did NOT include the section about sending back information. They added it retroactively to cover their asses.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:02 am

Sarvis wrote:As I said, I did not see the license agreement when I downloaded WGA. Sorry if the test I just ran contradicts your baseless opinions.


I ran automatic updates and found that an EULA did indeed come up for WGA. You performed no test.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=4
ZDNET writer David Berlind Indicates WGA doesn't show up on automatic updates.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=15
ZDNET appears to have hit an EULA.

"Eventually, upon installing a second WGA component (that I can only guess relies on the first), there were several places including the presentation of the WGA End User License Agreement where I could have opted out of the installation."

Baseless? I think that's you, Sarvis.

Sarvis wrote:And what does the WinXP EULA have to do with not seeing the WGA license anyway?


Funnily enough, when you agree to a contract, you're still bound to it later.

Sarvis wrote:Oh, and another little tidbit I found is that initially the WGA license did NOT include the section about sending back information. They added it retroactively to cover their asses.


Funnily enough, that's another thing you've already agreed to.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:27 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:As I said, I did not see the license agreement when I downloaded WGA. Sorry if the test I just ran contradicts your baseless opinions.


I ran automatic updates and found that an EULA did indeed come up for WGA. You performed no test.


As I stated earlier, I tested the manual download and was shown no license. That is hardly "no test." It is just a different test, in which I found at least one option in which the license is not shown.


http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=4
ZDNET writer David Berlind Indicates WGA doesn't show up on automatic updates.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=15
ZDNET appears to have hit an EULA.

"Eventually, upon installing a second WGA component (that I can only guess relies on the first), there were several places including the presentation of the WGA End User License Agreement where I could have opted out of the installation."

Baseless? I think that's you, Sarvis.


Read your own quote more carefully, they were only shown the license on a <i>second</i> component, not the original WGA component.


Sarvis wrote:Funnily enough, when you agree to a contract, you're still bound to it later.


The WinXP license does NOT say that they can install software on my computer wich takes undisclosed actions.


Sarvis wrote:Funnily enough, that's another thing you've already agreed to.


I agreed to what now? To them retroactively changing the license I agreed to? Sorry, but contracts don't work like that.

In any case, there is a class action lawsuit pending... so perhaps the spyware claims aren't ase baseless as you want us to believe.

Enough of this. If you want spyware on your computer, go ahead and download WGA. Nevermind that it sometimes flags legitimate copies of the software as invalid, or that it uses your system resources to send information about you to Microsoft. It's clearly not spyware because MS eventually edited the license, that shows up on random occasions, to say that they can and that you can't use what you paid for otherwise. :roll:
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:34 am

It's clear that your feelings on this matter are too strong to allow logical thought. I can suggest that you can bring lawsuit against Microsoft if you want true resolution, but to be honest, I'm certain you will fail.

Next time read your agreements more carefully, and if you don't understand them, get someone to explain them to you.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:44 am

I dont mean to imply there is any *conspiracy theory* here. I argue the fact we think this is a HIDDEN thing when its RIGHT in our faces. Iit looks to ME that Microsoft is trying to protect themselves and other folks by sending registration info about your computer to them and other vendors. This was made VERY clear when it was not allowed to be upgraded past SP1 if they found an invalid key in your copy. I personally am an upgrader. I had a not-so-legal version of XP .. I couldnt upgrade .. I purchased the legal keycode from Microsoft, now I can upgrade. I am a fairly intelligent person who realizes that as technology gets better, so do hackers (most of US mudders) If all theya re trying to do is get registration info, then so be it. I furthermore understand that i can turn on and off this feature should I desire to.

I read all this thru the Microsoft updates throughout the years.

I am told quite from the get-go that this is happenening, it is just an upgrade to Microsoft's security features.

I am quite sure that they have the capability to write it into their software to spy on our usage. But they told us UPFRONT, there was nothing hidden. AT all.

To me this is like being pissed off when we get fat from fast food, as if it is a shock to anyone that fast food is loaded with fat and other garbage, but we STILL buy itand devour it. Does Microsoft have the RIGHT? It's their software, we pay for it. There are others out there if we dont like it.

Ack, just think .. Zugg is probably the next person on that bandwagon!
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:10 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:It's clear that your feelings on this matter are too strong to allow logical thought. I can suggest that you can bring lawsuit against Microsoft if you want true resolution, but to be honest, I'm certain you will fail.

Next time read your agreements more carefully, and if you don't understand them, get someone to explain them to you.


Ah Teflor, already out of pro=corporate arguments on this one? Just go ahead and call my arguments, that you probably didn't read, illogical. All I did was point out that the EULA didn't always tell people what was going on, and that you don't necessarily see it when you install WGA. There's no room for bad logic there, those are simple facts.

No, I don't feel that strongly about it. I'm one of the people it doesn't actually affect in any way, because I never let it on my system except to test it last night... and then only because I was about to reinstall my OS anyway.

In any case, there already is a lawsuit... as I said and you no doubt failed to read. I can't really be a part if it though, as I never purchased the product.

Ambar

I never said anything about conspiracy. One company isn't a conspiracy, it's just unethical behavior. MS has NOT been up front about WGA the entire time, as evidenced by the initial EULA which never said anything about sending information back to Microsoft.

And again, you need to realize that many people with pirated copies got around WGA's supposed copy protection easily, whereas it caused problems for many <i>legitmate</i> users.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:42 pm

I have a legitimate copy of WinXP and to add this crap so I can continue to get updates is unethical. They've basically said, "well, if you want to continue to get the support we've provided with the expensive piece of software you've already paid for, we're going to have to sell your personal information." And to be honest, it isn't as straightforward as you said. I mean, who here honestly reads evey line of a EULA before they accept an update from a usually reputable company such as MS when you download an update? And please don't tell me you do -- that is just silly. It's like reading the 20 page contract at centenial when you get your phone. Only a masochist would do it. Most times the EULAs are there to protect companies from piracy and what not, and it has become a formality of sorts -- a formality nobody really pays attention to anymore.

Also, what other solid choices do I have for an OS now that I really don't care to let MS profit from my personal information? I don't think anybody here is getting upset for invalid reasons.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:17 pm

OMG there is no conspiracy theory or none mentioned :P It was a JOKE!

And I guess if we dont read every part of an agreement its their fault *shrug*
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Postby Kifle » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:49 am

Ambar wrote:And I guess if we dont read every part of an agreement its their fault *shrug*


No, it's shady strategy. They know average joe wont read it, and thus hardly anybody will notice or complain. It's a common strategy -- used quite a bit by companies that feed your computer spyware. So, while it isn't their fault for "not bringing it to our attention," as you oh so sarcastically and condescendingly pointed out, they knew what they were doing -- putting it in the EULA to avoid lawsuits, but only doing the bare minimum so they make a profit off of your personal information -- and that is my point that you're dodging. It's ok though, pretty soon we'll all sell-out our right to privacy -- hell, after the patriot act, I'm not sure if we have one anymore.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:09 am

In this discussion it is immediately clear that many of you posting have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about, so I've decided to push the route of education. Any argument you make contrary to the following factual information is worthy of being ignored.

WGA TRANSMITS TO MICROSOFT:
http://windows.about.com/od/glossary/p/wga.htm
Product key
PC manufacturer
Windows version
PID/SID (Processor or System Serial Number)
BIOS Information
BIOS MD5 Checksum
Language Setting and Version
Hard Drive Serial Number

WGA HAS TWO COMPONENTS:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=8
WGA Validation Tool
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=16
WGA Notification

WGA NOTIFICATION DOES NOT INSTALL AUTOMATICALLY:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=4

USERS ARE NOTIFIED WHEN WGA NOTIFICATION INSTALLS:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=3170&page=15

USERS MAY OPT OUT OF WGA NOTIFICATION COMPONENT:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=3168
Eventually, upon installing a second WGA component (that I can only guess relies on the first), there were several places including the presentation of the WGA End User License Agreement where I could have opted out of the installation.

---END OF SECTION---

Below is a source that does not have my full confidence, but it is the only source I have been able to find that speaks about the Verification Tool and the Notification component seperately.

WGA VERIFICATION TOOL (WITHOUT NOTIFICATION COMPONENT) ONLY ACTIVATES PHONE HOME BEHAVIOR ONLY WHEN USER ATTEMPTS TO DOWNLOAD WGA VALIDATION REQUIRED SOFTWARE:
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2006/06/0 ... ntage-oga/
WGA Validation Tool performs a validation check to verify that your copy of Windows is genuine when you try to download a program or software that is marked with the WGA icon from Microsoft Download Center or when you try to access updates on the Microsoft Windows Update Web site.





Personal Observations:

WGA does not appear to collect any contact inforamtion.
WGA does not collect addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses.
WGA Notification operates the phone home regularly behavior, as well as the initial non-user initiated validation.
WGA Notification presents user with EULA agreement when it attempts to install.
WGA Notification EULA asks if user agrees to have machine data sent to Microsoft for specified uses.
WGA Validation Tool only phones home with user activation (for instance, attempting to download WGA necessary software).
Original Windows XP EULA (the agreement you agreed to when you use Windows) allows for 1) refusing users software updates 2) using automated anti-piracy tools.

I prefer that no one collect any information on me whatsoever, but to be honest, you give your IP address to any thing at all you hook up to on the internet. Much data can be gleaned from that (including the city you live in, your ISP, as well as your time and behavior on their server). If you allow your browser to accept cookies (for instance, 'remember password' or 'keep me logged in ' websites require use of cookies) you are allowing several companies to track your behavior on the web (they give you a unique ID in a cookie, and check at many points what you're doing all day on the web).

However, I understand why a company would need to validate a copy of their software before they give you an update.

I have to prove that I have a say... 2002 Honda Civic manufactured between Dec. 2000 and Dec. 2001 before I can get the air filter that can catch on fire replaced. !!! (great recall, btw, and no I don't have a civic)

I have to prove that I paid my ticket at the old country buffet upon demand by the management. (mmm. fat friday)

Ever try to call and complain about a consumer product (bottled water, funiture, bicycle, etc)? They ask for even more information.

Automatic validation is not a unqiue concept. It has been around in the software industry for years. Take the elicence software for example. Microsoft, perhaps, needs to remember that it's consumer software is for people who don't know anything (Linux is a __FREE__(omfg) alternative, no one forces you to use windows) or people who dont' want to know anything. But even then the user must acknowledge that in the operation of any machine, the user has responsibility. You can't blame Microsoft for everything, you, after all, agreed to it.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:37 am

You dodge the point. If they need to validate my copy, fine, but A) only get information that is a MUST, and B) don't sell the shit to other companies. If their sole purpose was geniunely only to validate your copy of windows, they don't need my BOIS information, among other things, and they sure as shit don't need to sell it. So, why, tef, do they need to do all that to validate my copy?
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:06 am

teflor the ranger wrote:In this discussion it is immediately clear that many of you posting have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about, so I've decided to push the route of education. Any argument you make contrary to the following factual information is worthy of being ignored.

WGA TRANSMITS TO MICROSOFT:
http://windows.about.com/od/glossary/p/wga.htm
Product key
PC manufacturer
Windows version
PID/SID (Processor or System Serial Number)
BIOS Information
BIOS MD5 Checksum
Language Setting and Version
Hard Drive Serial Number


Yes, that is what they collect now. I see no reason whatsoever for them to get most of that information. What good does the hard drive serial number do, when I can swap a HD out at any time? They probably plan to use that to make sure your windows installation doesn't change, which ends up discouraging people with the know how from building and repairing their own computers. They had similar problems with the phone-in activation for WinXP if I remember correctly.

WGA does not appear to collect any contact inforamtion.
WGA does not collect addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses.


Not yet, anyway.

I prefer that no one collect any information on me whatsoever,


Then maybe you should rethink arguing in favor of a company collecting information on you.

but to be honest, you give your IP address to any thing at all you hook up to on the internet. Much data can be gleaned from that (including the city you live in, your ISP, as well as your time and behavior on their server). If you allow your browser to accept cookies (for instance, 'remember password' or 'keep me logged in ' websites require use of cookies) you are allowing several companies to track your behavior on the web (they give you a unique ID in a cookie, and check at many points what you're doing all day on the web).


Yet none of that gives them any chance to access my personal information. Even though MS isn't now, they certainly can do so through WGA. Nor is there any chance of your IP address disabling your legitimate copy of windows because of a swapped hard drive or just a bug.

However, I understand why a company would need to validate a copy of their software before they give you an update.


Let's say that they did need to do this, why does that mean they need to see information about your computer even when you aren't updating?

I have to prove that I have a say... 2002 Honda Civic manufactured between Dec. 2000 and Dec. 2001 before I can get the air filter that can catch on fire replaced. !!! (great recall, btw, and no I don't have a civic)


But the dealership doesn't sneak over to your house and examine the car while you're sleeping to get that proof. THAT's the issue here.

Nor is the dealer likely to change the mistakenly door locks if he reads the VIN# wrong.

Ever try to call and complain about a consumer product (bottled water, funiture, bicycle, etc)? They ask for even more information.


Ask for, yes. Take from you without immediate prior consent, no. (I don't mean a line hidden in a license agreement either. Think of it as MS requiring you to fill out a form with information in order to get the updates, rather than having a program automatically do it. There's a difference whether it is listed in a license agreement or not.)

Microsoft, perhaps, needs to remember that it's consumer software is for people who don't know anything


Not really. That's what Macs are for. Linux isn't there yet, and so much of the business world uses Windows that you NEED windows experience even for administrative positions. Plus try writing a resume with OpenOffice, then save it to Word format, which many interviewers require these days, and it looks like crap. (Or at least it did a couple years ago when I tried to go legit...)

(Linux is a __FREE__(omfg) alternative, no one forces you to use windows) or people who dont' want to know anything. But even then the user must acknowledge that in the operation of any machine, the user has responsibility. You can't blame Microsoft for everything, you, after all, agreed to it.


Here's the thing though, I've been using pirated Windows for years now because I can't really afford to buy it. Now I'm getting to the point where I could, and MS is just making it uncomfortable for me because I don't like their anti-piracy crap. I didn't want to call MS to register my copy of WinXP 2 years ago, and the direction they are going with Vista looks like they will constantly be monitoring my system to make sure it's valid... whereas I'm sure creative crackers will figure out how to make Vista run WITHOUT those annoyances.

What to choose? The free, non-invasive option or the legit, invasive and troublesome option?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:42 am

Sarvis wrote:
I have to prove that I have a say... 2002 Honda Civic manufactured between Dec. 2000 and Dec. 2001 before I can get the air filter that can catch on fire replaced. !!! (great recall, btw, and no I don't have a civic)


But the dealership doesn't sneak over to your house and examine the car while you're sleeping to get that proof. THAT's the issue here.

Nor is the dealer likely to change the mistakenly door locks if he reads the VIN# wrong.


Quick response to this particular one:

YES_THEY_DO. Don't ever be late with your car payment.

Why do you think there's a 48 hour turnaround on a 2 hour repair?

*cough* fix it before he gets back.

Sarvis wrote:Here's the thing though, I've been using pirated Windows for years now because I can't really afford to buy it. Now I'm getting to the point where I could, and MS is just making it uncomfortable for me because I don't like their anti-piracy crap. I didn't want to call MS to register my copy of WinXP 2 years ago, and the direction they are going with Vista looks like they will constantly be monitoring my system to make sure it's valid... whereas I'm sure creative crackers will figure out how to make Vista run WITHOUT those annoyances.

What to choose? The free, non-invasive option or the legit, invasive and troublesome option?


Another quick response:

Ever have a car alarm before?


As to many of your other points, I still have to point out that WGA notification (continual verification) is entirely an optional installation. It's advantageous to Microsoft to ensure that their software is valid on a regular basis (again, to prevent piracy). Volume serial, as well as make/model are necessary to check for installations on multiple machines.

While it's true Microsoft doesn't tell you how it determines what it thinks is piracy, an important item to remember is that Microsoft (currently) won't lock you out of your system or really do much more than notify you that your installation may not be valid. They maintain toll-free customer support as well as internet based resources to help you resolve the issue that, yes, they potentially may give you, but it's rare enough and the benefit is that it will help lock down piracy.

What's the benefit to you to prevent piracy? There wouldn't seem like there is a direct link between you and a major corporation - unless you work for one (which most of us do), or if you think that similar crimes aren't worth stopping/preventing (stealing, ignoring your property rights, like a neighbor letting his dog crap on your lawn all the time and leaving it).

Copyright protections are in place to protect both people, and yes, corporations. We all have the right to develop new and inventive things for profit. Heavens forbid that an American corporation ever make a profit.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:27 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
I have to prove that I have a say... 2002 Honda Civic manufactured between Dec. 2000 and Dec. 2001 before I can get the air filter that can catch on fire replaced. !!! (great recall, btw, and no I don't have a civic)


But the dealership doesn't sneak over to your house and examine the car while you're sleeping to get that proof. THAT's the issue here.

Nor is the dealer likely to change the mistakenly door locks if he reads the VIN# wrong.


Quick response to this particular one:

YES_THEY_DO. Don't ever be late with your car payment.


Go back and read that again. I said they never change the car locks <i>because they misread the VIN</i>. This is analogous to WGA detecting a false positive on your legitimate windows installation. Defaulting on your loan is a different story.

Why do you think there's a 48 hour turnaround on a 2 hour repair?

*cough* fix it before he gets back.


Umm... because your car isn't the only one being worked on? Jesus, and you were accusing ME of a conspiracy theory?

Another quick response:

Ever have a car alarm before?


Nope. Actually, I fail to see how that relates to anything anyway.

As to many of your other points, I still have to point out that WGA notification (continual verification) is entirely an optional installation. It's advantageous to Microsoft to ensure that their software is valid on a regular basis (again, to prevent piracy). Volume serial, as well as make/model are necessary to check for installations on multiple machines.


So, going back to the car analogy, do you think it would be OK for the dealership to repo your car because you bought new tires?

piracy, an important item to remember is that Microsoft (currently) won't lock you out of your system or really do much more than notify you that your installation may not be valid.


Vista is going in that direction. It won't lock you out completely, but it does turn off a lot of the functionality, and given that start they will probably go further in the future.

What's the benefit to you to prevent piracy?

...

Copyright protections are in place to protect both people, and yes, corporations. We all have the right to develop new and inventive things for profit. Heavens forbid that an American corporation ever make a profit.


Ever wonder how the company that makes Opera turns a profit? Especially since they removed ads from the browser...

Microsoft's revenue wouldn't dry up even if every person who built their own machine ran a pirated version of Windows. In fact, it's a fairly safe bet that almost anyone who built their own machine is running pirated windows, yet MS is still one of the biggest companies out there. As far as forcing people to pay, this affects a small portion of the population and one that's just as likely, and capable, of switching ti linux as not. MOST computer users, who just buy a Dell or somesuch, get the legit version as part of the computer initially.


In fact, the only thing Microsoft SHOULD be worried about is other corporations pirating windows. If Dell were selling pirated copies of windows to it's customers, MS should worry. Even then going after consumers who paid for what they didn't get would be shady, but they could, and most assuredly should, go after Dell for not paying the license fees. THAT is where MS revenue comes from.

Of course, another point to consider is that as more people use Windows more business technology shifts into Windows as well. If 90% of the population were running windows, no one would develop software for any other platform... meaning MS would sell more Windows server software, more Windows development tools, and more books on developing for Windows.

So the short version: Not only is this anti-piracy stuff invasive (and not an option with the upcoming Vista,) it could even be harmful to MS.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:15 am

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:But the dealership doesn't sneak over to your house and examine the car while you're sleeping to get that proof. THAT's the issue here.

Nor is the dealer likely to change the mistakenly door locks if he reads the VIN# wrong.


Quick response to this particular one:

YES_THEY_DO. Don't ever be late with your car payment.


Go back and read that again. I said they never change the car locks <i>because they misread the VIN</i>. This is analogous to WGA detecting a false positive on your legitimate windows installation. Defaulting on your loan is a different story.


I'm afraid you're the one that will have to go back and read it again. WGA notification does not lock you out of your system, it merely prevents you from getting WGA software downloads.

Second of all, yes, a dealership will change the car locks <i>because they misread the VIN</i>. For your information, they happen to be the dealership and have many similar vehicles with similar VINs and your car could indeed be mistaken for the door lock job. You would be surprised by how often garages make those types of mistakes.

Sarvis wrote:
Why do you think there's a 48 hour turnaround on a 2 hour repair?

*cough* fix it before he gets back.


Umm... because your car isn't the only one being worked on? Jesus, and you were accusing ME of a conspiracy theory?


I happen to have managed a mechanic's shop and worked in another. There's no consipiracy, except for what is everyday, and you just wouldn't know.

Sarvis wrote:
Another quick response:

Ever have a car alarm before?


Nope. Actually, I fail to see how that relates to anything anyway.


Of course you wouldn't. A car alarm is a tenfold better analogy to WGA notification. If you get in without your keys, most car alarms will honk the horn at you or play obnoxious noise. Occasionally, it'll do this even if you use the correct key. Many GM car alarms let GM know (with your vehicles *GASP* information) where they are when their car alarms are set off.

Sarvis wrote:
As to many of your other points, I still have to point out that WGA notification (continual verification) is entirely an optional installation. It's advantageous to Microsoft to ensure that their software is valid on a regular basis (again, to prevent piracy). Volume serial, as well as make/model are necessary to check for installations on multiple machines.


So, going back to the car analogy, do you think it would be OK for the dealership to repo your car because you bought new tires?


I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous analogy. WGA will not shut you out of your computer. You really should try sticking more to realistic comparisons rather than wildly making up worthless analogies.

Sarvis wrote:
piracy, an important item to remember is that Microsoft (currently) won't lock you out of your system or really do much more than notify you that your installation may not be valid.


Vista is going in that direction. It won't lock you out completely, but it does turn off a lot of the functionality, and given that start they will probably go further in the future.


First of all, that's Vista. Don't complain about Saturn if you own a Mercury (ha). Microsoft has a 24 hour toll-free number and cases of false positives, which I have had to call before (bad hdd swap 3x on same day, WGA jumped in on the 3rd hdd). A nice guy somewhere in India resolved my case in less than five minutes.

Sarvis wrote:
What's the benefit to you to prevent piracy?

...

Copyright protections are in place to protect both people, and yes, corporations. We all have the right to develop new and inventive things for profit. Heavens forbid that an American corporation ever make a profit.


Ever wonder how the company that makes Opera turns a profit? Especially since they removed ads from the browser...

Microsoft's revenue wouldn't dry up even if every person who built their own machine ran a pirated version of Windows. In fact, it's a fairly safe bet that almost anyone who built their own machine is running pirated windows, yet MS is still one of the biggest companies out there. As far as forcing people to pay, this affects a small portion of the population and one that's just as likely, and capable, of switching ti linux as not. MOST computer users, who just buy a Dell or somesuch, get the legit version as part of the computer initially.


In fact, the only thing Microsoft SHOULD be worried about is other corporations pirating windows. If Dell were selling pirated copies of windows to it's customers, MS should worry. Even then going after consumers who paid for what they didn't get would be shady, but they could, and most assuredly should, go after Dell for not paying the license fees. THAT is where MS revenue comes from.

Of course, another point to consider is that as more people use Windows more business technology shifts into Windows as well. If 90% of the population were running windows, no one would develop software for any other platform... meaning MS would sell more Windows server software, more Windows development tools, and more books on developing for Windows.

So the short version: Not only is this anti-piracy stuff invasive (and not an option with the upcoming Vista,) it could even be harmful to MS.


All I can say is wrong, wrong, wrong again. Like the Linux people who told me to invest in Red Hat back in 1999. An incredibly vast majority of consumers will accept Microsoft's anti-piracy activities because it is NO MORE INVASIVE than really anything else (ever notice how much personal information is on that check you make your car payments with?).

You're also very naive to think that MS isn't worried about other corporations pirating its software. WGA is a powerful anti-piracy tool across the spectrum, from corporate to personal users worldwide.

And let's face it, it won't harm MS one bit. Everyone that dislikes MS already dislikes MS and this won't make anyone who purchased Windows XP (with it's lameo pseudo-registering required) not purchase Vista as well.

The fact that Windows checks to see if it's licence is valid before downloading bonus software does not harm the paying customer. Besides, it's something you already agreed to anyway.




Lastly, as another piece of education, I regret to inform you that Opera Software ASA is currently operating at a sizable loss. The ( ) around numbers means negative. Enjoy.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:02 am

teflor the ranger wrote:I'm afraid you're the one that will have to go back and read it again. WGA notification does not lock you out of your system, it merely prevents you from getting WGA software downloads.


Fine, whatever. The dealership still doesn't sneak into your driveway to collect information about your car.

Plus, as I said several times and you completely ignored: that is exactly the direction MS is heading with Vista.

I happen to have managed a mechanic's shop and worked in another. There's no consipiracy, except for what is everyday, and you just wouldn't know.[/qoute]

Then why were you intimating there was some conspiracy causing cars to take 48 hours for a 2 hour repair? Oh wait, let me guess you were laying a trap for me to say exactly that so you could derail the discussion even further. No, I'm sure you'd never do that though. :roll:

Sarvis wrote:Of course you wouldn't. A car alarm is a tenfold better analogy to WGA notification.


Really? A car alarm prevents me from getting new tires, or making repairs to my car?

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous analogy. WGA will not shut you out of your computer. You really should try sticking more to realistic comparisons rather than wildly making up worthless analogies.


As I said a couple times, and you ignored, Vista is heading in exactly that direction. WGA is just an initial step in that direction. It's aready been announced that Vista will lock down your computers functionality if it is deemed invalid.


First of all, that's Vista. Don't complain about Saturn if you own a Mercury (ha).


Yeah, that's what I'm doing. :roll:

Microsoft has a 24 hour toll-free number and cases of false positives, which I have had to call before (bad hdd swap 3x on same day, WGA jumped in on the 3rd hdd). A nice guy somewhere in India resolved my case in less than five minutes.


Before or after an hour on hold? In any case, that is a barrier to tinkering with my computer that I don't want and should not have to deal with. It is, in fact, exactly one of the things I was worried about.



All I can say is wrong, wrong, wrong again. Like the Linux people who told me to invest in Red Hat back in 1999. An incredibly vast majority of consumers will accept Microsoft's anti-piracy activities because it is NO MORE INVASIVE than really anything else (ever notice how much personal information is on that check you make your car payments with?).


No, they accept it because they don't know any better and will just run whatever comes on their system. Oh, and if you'd paid attention you'd realize that I SPECIFIED that the general population is not who I was just talking about.

The failure of Linux is that the ONLY people likely to run it are the same people who will pirate windows. Linux has no penetration in the general public, ie. legal users, because those people just buy a Dell and use whatever comes on it.

Frankly, the small size of the Linux userbase shows just how little Microsoft has to gain from these tactics.

You're also very naive to think that MS isn't worried about other corporations pirating its software. WGA is a powerful anti-piracy tool across the spectrum, from corporate to personal users worldwide.


I never said they weren't worrying about corporations, I said that's where they should concentrate their efforts. It's pointless to go after end users.

And let's face it, it won't harm MS one bit. Everyone that dislikes MS already dislikes MS and this won't make anyone who purchased Windows XP (with it's lameo pseudo-registering required) not purchase Vista as well.


Not really. There are people out there who care a lot about their privacy, and will either stick with WinXP or are starting to look at alternatives. Maybe the number of windows pirates who would choose to buy windows rather than switch to linux is greater than the number of users who look for alternatives because of privacy concerns. But that's a bit of a gamble, especialy since from all reports Linux is getting pretty good.

Besides, it's something you already agreed to anyway.


You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.



Lastly, as another piece of education, I regret to inform you that Opera Software ASA is currently operating at a sizable loss. The ( ) around numbers means negative. Enjoy.


Ok, then Google instead. Besides which, I outlined other avenues of profit Microsoft has that Opera wouldn't.

Look, if they didn't bother with any of their anti-piracy tools they would still be getting a license fee every time Dell sells a PC or laptop, still be getting license fees from every corporation, still get license fees from server software, development tools, books, developer training and certification and a whole shitload of other things.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:42 am

Kifle wrote:Also, what other solid choices do I have for an OS now that I really don't care to let MS profit from my personal information?


Man, this question was lost in the ranger flames.

Ubuntu is a very nice (and free) Linux distro for the desktop. Pay a little for CrossOver or Cedega and you can run ZMUD and WoW without any Windows at all.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:59 am

Sarvis wrote:Fine, whatever. The dealership still doesn't sneak into your driveway to collect information about your car.

Plus, as I said several times and you completely ignored: that is exactly the direction MS is heading with Vista.


Again, they will if you miss a payment. They are certainly allowed to continue that direction with Vista, as it will be a well known feature of Vista, much like forced psuedo-registration was required with Windows XP.

Sarvis wrote:Then why were you intimating there was some conspiracy causing cars to take 48 hours for a 2 hour repair? Oh wait, let me guess you were laying a trap for me to say exactly that so you could derail the discussion even further. No, I'm sure you'd never do that though. :roll:


I'm sorry, but THAT is derailing a conversation - stay on topic or stop complaining.

Sarvis wrote:
Of course you wouldn't. A car alarm is a tenfold better analogy to WGA notification.


Really? A car alarm prevents me from getting new tires, or making repairs to my car?


WGA does not prevent you from adding hardware or getting your computer repaired. Like I said, it is a ridiculous analogy.

Sarvis wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous analogy. WGA will not shut you out of your computer. You really should try sticking more to realistic comparisons rather than wildly making up worthless analogies.


As I said a couple times, and you ignored, Vista is heading in exactly that direction. WGA is just an initial step in that direction. It's aready been announced that Vista will lock down your computers functionality if it is deemed invalid.


I've ignored it because this is a discussion of WGA. The only reason why there is any controversy about WGA is because people don't bother to read software licences.


Sarvis wrote:
First of all, that's Vista. Don't complain about Saturn if you own a Mercury (ha).


Yeah, that's what I'm doing. :roll:


Well, do you have Vista? Are any of it's anti-piracy features finalized?

No and no. That's what I thought.

Sarvis wrote:
Microsoft has a 24 hour toll-free number and cases of false positives, which I have had to call before (bad hdd swap 3x on same day, WGA jumped in on the 3rd hdd). A nice guy somewhere in India resolved my case in less than five minutes.


Before or after an hour on hold? In any case, that is a barrier to tinkering with my computer that I don't want and should not have to deal with. It is, in fact, exactly one of the things I was worried about.


You only ask because you don't know. The entire call was little more than five minutes, and it's not an unreasonable anti-piracy measure. The process ensures that people who have not paid for legitimate software do not get the same benefits and priviledges that I recieve for having paid out hard earned cash.



Sarvis wrote:
All I can say is wrong, wrong, wrong again. Like the Linux people who told me to invest in Red Hat back in 1999. An incredibly vast majority of consumers will accept Microsoft's anti-piracy activities because it is NO MORE INVASIVE than really anything else (ever notice how much personal information is on that check you make your car payments with?).


No, they accept it because they don't know any better and will just run whatever comes on their system. Oh, and if you'd paid attention you'd realize that I SPECIFIED that the general population is not who I was just talking about.

The failure of Linux is that the ONLY people likely to run it are the same people who will pirate windows. Linux has no penetration in the general public, ie. legal users, because those people just buy a Dell and use whatever comes on it.

Frankly, the small size of the Linux userbase shows just how little Microsoft has to gain from these tactics.


The general computer using population is the target audience. You see, people have money, which they can use to acquire goods and services...

Sarvis wrote:
You're also very naive to think that MS isn't worried about other corporations pirating its software. WGA is a powerful anti-piracy tool across the spectrum, from corporate to personal users worldwide.


I never said they weren't worrying about corporations, I said that's where they should concentrate their efforts. It's pointless to go after end users.


Says you. But I'm afraid that's where you would be mistaken. WGA is a full spectrum anti-piracy method that prevents both private and corporate software piracy.

Sarvis wrote:
And let's face it, it won't harm MS one bit. Everyone that dislikes MS already dislikes MS and this won't make anyone who purchased Windows XP (with it's lameo pseudo-registering required) not purchase Vista as well.


Not really. There are people out there who care a lot about their privacy, and will either stick with WinXP or are starting to look at alternatives. Maybe the number of windows pirates who would choose to buy windows rather than switch to linux is greater than the number of users who look for alternatives because of privacy concerns. But that's a bit of a gamble, especialy since from all reports Linux is getting pretty good.


Unfortunately for you, WGA does not invade your privacy, as third party vendors and Microsoft _already have_ all of the information they would be gathering:
They already know your computer make, PID, Volume ID, and software version.

What do you think they are comparing the data with?!

Privacy? That is a joke.


Sarvis wrote:Ok, then Google instead. Besides which, I outlined other avenues of profit Microsoft has that Opera wouldn't.

Look, if they didn't bother with any of their anti-piracy tools they would still be getting a license fee every time Dell sells a PC or laptop, still be getting license fees from every corporation, still get license fees from server software, development tools, books, developer training and certification and a whole shitload of other things.


Sarvis, I'm not going to tell you that your ideas won't make money, but I can suggest that you bring them up with Microsoft. If they like what you say, who knows, maybe they'll end up offering you a job.

Honestly, I'd root for you, even if I don't really believe 99% of the stuff that comes out of you.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:03 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Kifle wrote:Also, what other solid choices do I have for an OS now that I really don't care to let MS profit from my personal information?


Man, this question was lost in the ranger flames.

Ubuntu is a very nice (and free) Linux distro for the desktop. Pay a little for CrossOver or Cedega and you can run ZMUD and WoW without any Windows at all.


:( There are none.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:50 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Again, they will if you miss a payment.


You make payments on Windows? Missing a payment is breach of contract, and it wouldn't be the dealer in your driveway it would be the bank who <i>technically owns the car</i>. That's a lot different than silently taking information from a product you own outright.

Look at the comparison to how MS collects debugging information: If a program crashes, you get a dialog box explaining that MS wants to see that data and allowing you to review what that data is, then you get to decide whether or not to send it.

Can you honestly not see the difference in how much more invasive WGA is?

I'm sorry, but THAT is derailing a conversation - stay on topic or stop complaining.


I'll just note you dropped the point.

WGA does not prevent you from adding hardware or getting your computer repaired. Like I said, it is a ridiculous analogy.


I repeat: "As I said a couple times, and you ignored, Vista is heading in exactly that direction. "

I've ignored it because this is a discussion of WGA. The only reason why there is any controversy about WGA is because people don't bother to read software licences.


So you admit they aren't read, but count that as telling them?


You only ask because you don't know. The entire call was little more than five minutes, and it's not an unreasonable anti-piracy measure.


You got lucky, a friend of mine was just telling us how he spent 3 hours on the phone to get an eMachines computer activated for a customer... only to finally be told he had to talk to eMachines instead.

The process ensures that people who have not paid for legitimate software do not get the same benefits and priviledges that I recieve for having paid out hard earned cash.


You're right, people who have not paid for legitimate software get MORE rights and privileges. For instance, I never have to call Microsoft to swap a hard drive. I can still get all the updates through Windizupdate. Really, by pirating the only thing I've missed out on is annoyances and loss of privacy.



The general computer using population is the target audience. You see, people have money, which they can use to acquire goods and services...


I'll use smaller sentences this time:

The general population will buy from Dell. Computers from Dell are legitimate installs. There is no need to validate computers from Dell, unless Dell is pirating. If Dell is pirating, harass Dell, not your customers.

WGA does not find pirates in the general population, because there aren't any.

Says you. But I'm afraid that's where you would be mistaken. WGA is a full spectrum anti-piracy method that prevents both private and corporate software piracy.


Actually it doesn't. Ambar is the only person I've ever heard of who had a pirated version and bought a legit one, instead of just working around WGA.

Why? Because most of the people who pirate windows have the knowledge to go around such a feeble attempt. Most of those people are not the General Population who buys Dell.


Unfortunately for you, WGA does not invade your privacy, as third party vendors and Microsoft _already have_ all of the information they would be gathering:


Bullshit. MS does not have my HD serial number. In fact, pretty much no one but Newegg could possibly have it.

They already know your computer make, PID, Volume ID, and software version.


No, they really don't.

What do you think they are comparing the data with?!

Privacy? That is a joke.


Simple, the first time it's activated it sends that data along with, most likely, the registration key you used. It probably only detects you as a pirate when different information shows up under that same key. This would happen to a pirate, because they'd be sharing that registration key.

That's probably the basic version, it'd have to deal with corporate licensing in a more advanced way of course.
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Postby Botef » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:09 pm

Image
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:12 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:
Kifle wrote:Also, what other solid choices do I have for an OS now that I really don't care to let MS profit from my personal information?


Man, this question was lost in the ranger flames.

Ubuntu is a very nice (and free) Linux distro for the desktop. Pay a little for CrossOver or Cedega and you can run ZMUD and WoW without any Windows at all.


:( There are none.


Sorry, are you saying I'm wrong? I personally know two people who switched 100% overnight.
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Re: microsoft genuine advantage

Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:54 pm

So here's an article detailing another part of Vista's license: http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/193300234

The short version is that you will only be able to transfer Vista to a new machine ONCE.

Here's the reactions of some people in the <a href="http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2347939">Fark</a> thread, that are remarkably right along the lines of what I was saying:

Baggins wrote:I won't be running it on any of my machines, they can fark off. My wife bought a gateway machine and was fine until her warranty ran out (three years later), about two months after the warranty expired, so did her copy of windows, she couldn't login to it anymore without registering it again. I grabbed the numbers off the side of the machine and punched them in, nope. I got a hold of Gateway, they said "sorry, you'll have to contact MS, we can't help you."
The only changes ever made to the machine were to increase the RAM right after she bought it and I upgraded the video card at the same time, hardware fingerprint stayed the same for over three years and the OS was never installed on another machine. Linux here I come.


Oooska wrote:I haven't had any issues with Vista, until these licensing details. If I pay $400 for a farking operating system, I better be able to farking use it on my computer, regardless of how often I update it.


Bf+ wrote:
...the best way to eliminate piracy-- Make the software so crappy that noone will want to pirate it.

I've been a legitimate windows user for as long as it has existed. This Vista crap looks like its forcing me to "switch" to open source (or something.)


24601 wrote:I had been contemplating it latetly because of the licensing issues in Vista that I read about earlier, but this does it. I'm starting a "Help me decide what version of Linux to use for the first time" TF thread right now.


Ashyukun wrote:Meh. Fark this. I still have W2K running on all but one of my computers (that one exception is a laptop that came with XP pre-installed and I didn't deem it worth the effort to wipe it and put W2K on it). My next computer will be a MacBook anyway, and depending on how happy I am with that we'll see whether my next non-laptop purchase is a PC or a Mac.



Benny_Hill wrote:Well I guess I'll be using a cracked version of Windows for the first time then. The only thing I use it for is for testing (we're a Linux shop) and it's not at all uncommon for me to swap out parts or even move that Windows OS from one machine to another.

Thank you Linux for bringing sanity to my world.


Oh yeah, I can really see this move bringing far more users into Microsoft's fold. :roll:

But I guess if you "agree" for software you bought and paid for to simply disappear if you make some changes to the hardware, you can't complain... right?
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Postby daggaz » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:11 pm

I like how this was a highly legitimate debate as to the rights of consumers vs corporate monoliths, which was then turned as usual into a flat out flame war only thinly veiled with any kind of logic.

way to go teflor, you really suck. Is it AT ALL possible for you to give your meaning/opinion/facts WITHOUT flaming the person in the same sentence. Your very first sentence here (after your first quote of sarvis) was 'wrong again AS USUAL.'

And dont bother going back and digging up quotes of me flaming you, cuz yeah, I am ashamed to admit I have been STUPID enough to sink to your level, and you can find plenty of them.

And yeah, Im aware of the irony in the fact that Im flaming you right now, but only cuz your a retarded fookin troll who will probably never learn how to debate in a civilized manner and who needs to SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!

To end my statement, I agree with Ashiwi pretty much where she says its BS to apply after-the-fact restrictions on software that was guaranteed a long time ago.
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Postby Demuladon » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 am

I've decided not to install the Geniune Advantage update, so far there have been no noticable ill-effects from not installing it..

ie. I was still able to install the 5 or 6 security patches Microsoft released this past week.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:41 pm

I think it only applies to big xp updates, not security features. And mine installed in May and I have no illeffects from *other* programs ....

This is not a new thing, I guess I just update frequently ...

Years later I still fail to understand the needs of certain types of people to have to validate themselves over and over and over and over and over and over on the same topics. I dont know if they just want to sway the other person over to their side, or what. Using insults and example after example, saying *i didnt say* that *yes you did* are things most of us grew up past childhood.

The examples I have seen of *debate* on this BBS are mere sandbox slinging and prove no point whatsoever. I admit that I am not a horribly intelligent girl, but my mom taught me to agree to disagree at a very young age. Does this mean I dont argue MY point? Hell no, I'm too strong willed for that. But I wont tell you that your opinion is stupid just because mine varies.

It reminds me of the life I lived for almost 20 years, the life I raised my childrem in. God I am SO glad that crap is over and I can voice my opinion without being called stupid.

Unless I post ..

Agreeing to disagree takes more strengthof character than trying to argue your point ad nasuem.

ON this topic. I installing WGA MONTHS ago! I knew what it did, what it meant. I AGREED to do it. Hell I even validated MY illegal copy of XP-PRO to do it! Is big brother watching? With all the other spyware and adware out there, if my OS joined the bandwagon, so be it! I really dont have anything to hide and I STILL have all the MP3's and movies I downloaded *freely* .. the only thing NOT on my computer is porn .. who needs porn when ya live with a mudder ..

I installed it cause I saw it as a validator, not spyware. It told the microsoft site that my copy was illegal *shrug*

I guess ZMud is spyware too, it wont allow me to update past a certain point unless I BOUGHT it (10+ years ago I bought that too) .. If I rememebr corredctly, XP PRO allowed WinBLOWS updates thru SP1 Without WGA .. without a valid copy all I see that cant happen was SP2 amd beyond ....
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:23 pm

Well then maybe you should be big enough to understand that some people don't share your opinions on debate? I enjoy arguing, though not always with someone like Teflor. I wouldn't being a "bigger man" by agreeing to disagree, I'd be ending something I was enjoying.


Where did you get your computer from anyway, Ambar?
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:44 pm

I bought my first system all together. After that I learned to build my own .. have done so ever since.

Why do you ask?
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:48 pm

Was thinking you got it from a store with an illegal copy, or that it might be a false positive.

Good luck building your own machines with Vista. I'm seriously thinking of just switching to linux. Ubuntu looks kinda decent, I've just got to get a DVD burner so I can burn it and try it out.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:09 pm

You need a dvd burner? You can't just snag a cd iso and burn a couple of them if you really want that many packages(which you won't really need all of anyway) :P Let me know how Ubuntu works out. I've always been a slackware fan and debian.

Though debians been more polished. apt-get is the shit too.
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