Must be why Seinfeld never really had blacks on the show!

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Must be why Seinfeld never really had blacks on the show!

Postby Drache » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:30 pm

Just kidding! But talk about your career ruiners:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_ ... l_richards
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Re: Must be why Seinfeld never really had blacks on the show

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:34 pm

A lot of really good comedians actually are crazy, it's what makes them so funny. eg Robin Williams
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Postby Cirath » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:22 pm

Well, if nothing else that article provided perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard in months:

"Once the word comes out of your mouth and you don't happen to be African-American, then you have a whole lot of explaining," comedian
Paul Rodriguez, who was at the Laugh Factory during Richards' performance, told CNN. "Freedom of speech has its limitations and I think Michael Richards found those limitations."

As I see it, if freedom of speech had limitations, then it wouldn't be much of a freedom, would it? It would just be "things we are priviledged enough to be allowed to say." Just because someone gets offended at something that spews forth from your mouth doesn't mean you aren't allowed to say it.

And then there is the fact that Richards apparently has become a social pariah, if only temporarily, over a racial slur. Personally, I can think of a half dozen worse things to call someone off the top of my head without even leaving the subject of their parentage. The fact that such an uproar is being caused over a bit of name calling at a pair of individuals that were apparently being jackasses anyway is insane.

All this is beside the fact that racial slurs are one of the ultimate examples of double standards, which you would think would drain away what little potency they might have.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:54 pm

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The right to the freedom of speech is merely that the government won't take it away from you.

You have a right to say what you want to say (without intentional malice or threat of harm), and people certainly have the right to punish you in lawful manner for what you have said.
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Postby Cirath » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:01 am

teflor the ranger wrote:You have a right to say what you want to say (without intentional malice or threat of harm), and people certainly have the right to punish you in lawful manner for what you have said.


You realize the controdictory nature of that statement, right? If you are punished for making a statement, then you are not free to make that statement in the first place.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:50 am

Cirath wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:You have a right to say what you want to say (without intentional malice or threat of harm), and people certainly have the right to punish you in lawful manner for what you have said.


You realize the controdictory nature of that statement, right? If you are punished for making a statement, then you are not free to make that statement in the first place.


The First Amendment guarantees that the federal and state government will not revoke your right to speak. However, it is not a universal right, and it provides you no guarantee that other citizens won't punish, shun, or censure you for your speech.

You do not have the freedom to do whatever the fuck you want without reprisal. None of the amendments give you the right to infringe upon the liberties of others. If you shoot someone in the head, you don't get to call the Second Amendment as your defense, claiming that being jailed for murder is an infringement of your right to bear arms.
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Postby Cirath » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:55 am

Ragorn wrote:You do not have the freedom to do whatever the fuck you want without reprisal. None of the amendments give you the right to infringe upon the liberties of others. If you shoot someone in the head, you don't get to call the Second Amendment as your defense, claiming that being jailed for murder is an infringement of your right to bear arms.


That is a pretty far cry from calling someone a rude name.

And the best part is that, in this particular case, the hecklers were preventing Richards from doing the job he was paid to do, and as such were verbally accosted in response. Funny how the bad guys suddenly become the victims because the choice of words hurt their feelings.
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Postby Minofagal » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:15 am

I dare you to post various racial slurs on this board and see how "free" your speech is.
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:19 am

Disregarding this lame debate over freedom of speech...

What really stands out for me is what a lousy performer the guy is. Richards apparently went into a rage because he didn't like being heckled. But a big part of being a stand up comedian is dealing with audience members. Professional comedians can deal with hecklers pretty easily by relentlessly making them the butt of their jokes. Richards needs to grow some thicker skin and learn some better chops or find a different line of work.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Cirath » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:22 am

Minofagal wrote:I dare you to post various racial slurs on this board and see how "free" your speech is.


Sure. As soon as you point me to a written statement that says it won't get me banned from this board, I will do them alphabetically if you like.

Corth wrote:But a big part of being a stand up comedian is dealing with audience members. Professional comedians can deal with hecklers pretty easily by relentlessly making them the butt of their jokes.


Some comics can do so, yes. It might even be said that the best of them can work such harassment into their act. However, not all people can roll with the punches so easily, no matter their line of work. To make such a big deal out of a simple outburst born of frustration is a bit ridiculous, and to assume that only a poor example of humanity could be subject to such a display is a bit more high-minded than any person has a right to be.

Corth wrote:Richards needs to grow some thicker skin and learn some better chops or find a different line of work.


By the same token, the average joe should be able to shrug off any insult slung at him, because it is a fact of life that there is someone, somewhere that will not like him and will make that dislike known. So to not be able to ignore such aggression makes someone bad at life?

Don't get me wrong, I won't say that I disagree with this stance. I just want to be clear on what you are saying.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:21 am

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Postby Ambar » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:54 am

I think it's hysterical for him to be saying *I am not a racist* after this crap .. What comes out of your mouth is in your heart in my opinion

Woulda been nice if he got his ass handed to him after the show :)
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Postby Minofagal » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:28 pm

Cirath wrote:
Minofagal wrote:I dare you to post various racial slurs on this board and see how "free" your speech is.


Sure. As soon as you point me to a written statement that says it won't get me banned from this board, I will do them alphabetically if you like.


rofl, you just proved my point ;)
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:15 pm

Cirath,

What I said about comedians does not apply to the average Joe. From what I have seen, it takes years to hone your craft and develop the chops to be a succesful comedian. Those who do not learn how to handle hecklers, simply don't make it. Richards was an actor trying to perform high level comedy without the necessary experience.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Lilira » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:37 pm

This same argument pretty much was tossed out and batted back and forth when the Dixie Chicks opened their mouths on an international stage, and shoved their feet in up to the hip.

Freedom of Speech. You have the right to say what you want. I have the right to not like it, and boycott your products/performances whatever. I also have the right to come out and SAY I didn't like what you said.

Taa-daa. He was pissed, he said something foolish, he's paying the price. Period, end of story.
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Postby Cirath » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:39 pm

Ambar wrote:I think it's hysterical for him to be saying *I am not a racist* after this crap .. What comes out of your mouth is in your heart in my opinion


Or he just knew the quickest way to really get under their skin.

Minofagal wrote:rofl, you just proved my point ;)


Not quite. This board is private property, so anyone can be thrown out on a whim by the owner. Many civil liberties are overridden when you are tresspassing.

Corth wrote:What I said about comedians does not apply to the average Joe. From what I have seen, it takes years to hone your craft and develop the chops to be a succesful comedian. Those who do not learn how to handle hecklers, simply don't make it. Richards was an actor trying to perform high level comedy without the necessary experience.


I don't suppose I can fault your logic there. But, as you said, Richards lacked the experience to side step a heckling, so an outburst is understandable, whether you condone it or not.
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Postby Minofagal » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:45 am

i actually saw his outburst for the first time today. can't defend the guy anymore it was blattent bigatry.

"Through that a--hole out of here! He's a n---------!"


I don't think you can get much wore straight forward and to the point. He can argue all he wants that he's not racist, but that statement won't leave him much ground, if any, to stand on.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:27 am

Minofagal wrote:I don't think you can get much wore straight forward and to the point. He can argue all he wants that he's not racist, but that statement won't leave him much ground, if any, to stand on.


And even if he is, that just makes him an idiot. It isn't exactly worth making a big fuss over. He wouldn't be the first famous person to be a jerk. I would think that the actor bashing some hotel employee over the head with a phone a year or so ago was a bigger deal than crap you can hear kids yelling at each other in most school yards in the country.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:09 am

Cirath wrote:
Minofagal wrote:I don't think you can get much wore straight forward and to the point. He can argue all he wants that he's not racist, but that statement won't leave him much ground, if any, to stand on.


And even if he is, that just makes him an idiot. It isn't exactly worth making a big fuss over. He wouldn't be the first famous person to be a jerk. I would think that the actor bashing some hotel employee over the head with a phone a year or so ago was a bigger deal than crap you can hear kids yelling at each other in most school yards in the country.


I was going to respond to this but I just cant for some reason

LOL



wait

its ok to call people names as long as kids do it too?

lol
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:28 am

No, but calling someone names is certainly better than assaulting them with a blunt object.
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Postby Cirath » Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:58 am

Ambar wrote:I was going to respond to this but I just cant for some reason

LOL



wait

its ok to call people names as long as kids do it too?

lol


Not at all what I said. I said that something so trivial isn't worth even a fraction of the outrage or attention it garnered. Though personally I would have to say that no matter what you call someone, the worst it would ever be considered is rude.
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Postby Demuladon » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:36 am

And Crowe, who last month paid $100,000 in damages to New York hotel worker Nestor Estrada after he allegedly attacked him with a telephone handset, hopes his new found wisdom will help him avoid any future fracas.


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000128/news


I'm guessing Nestor wasn't that upset about being whapped in the head with a phone?
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Postby daggaz » Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:16 am

Im totally gonna side with Corth on this one.

Its a) VERY LAME argumentation regarding the freedom of speech *cough especially Teflor*, (the feds and the state have no right to limit your speech, but every joe jack and harry has 'legal options'? Where dude? The county suddenly supersedes the state and/or the constitution? Glad I dont live in your world. Sure people can bitch about what you say, but they dont have legal options...)

and b) 'Kramer' totally blew his cool and showed the world, at the least, that he just doesn't have what it takes to be a live performer.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:55 am

I think there are many sentences you can say and include the word nigger where it isn't hate speach.

Therefore the context, and not the word itself, should be considered.

Not sure if i'm allowed to write nigger on this bbs, but I'll take my chance since Gormal called me european in another thread.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:35 pm

Usage of that word depends on your race and context. It is not RC (racially correct) to be caucasian and use that word

EVER

Then to not only USE the word to yell at an audience several times, to declare that you are NOT racist is insane.

This one goes beyond freedom of speech to stupidity. The word is disgusting, why anyone would use the word anyway is beyond me.

I jokingly call Michael a dirty spic (he is half Mexican/half Irish (you figure that one out!)). Do I mean it? Hell no, it is allowable because of the way I say it and use it, and to whom I say it (he knows it is a joke so it is OK). I would never dream of saying it in anger, because I dont feel it inside, its a way of joking and *how we are*.

Black folks use the *N* word differently than white folks do. White folks use the word to say someting nasty about a persons color, in general. Simple as that. It is not a freedom of speech thing, it is societal in nature.

Basically, freedom of speech or not, if you offend one person, you are in the wrong.

As a side note, his laughable apology woudlnt have been made if his representatives didnt feel he has errored HUGELY.

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Postby Drache » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:10 pm

blacks frequently refer to whites as honkey or cracker. yet, they don't like others to do the same. some mexican/puertoricans call americans grengos, etc. and also they call racism when a caucasian says something in return. It's pretty strange.


Found this to be interesting:

Black Racism: The Hate Crime That Dare Not Speak It's Name
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 16, 2002

We reported the story of the Wichita Massacre in these pages two years ago at the time it happened. Outside the local Wichita press, however, virtually the only media to report this hate crime were Frontpagemagazine.com and the American Renaissance newsletter. While the federal government rushes to Los Angeles to investigate an incident in which a handcuffed youth was slammed into the hood of a car and punched by an officer, a pall of silence still blankets the horrendous racial murder of four young people whose murderers are now on trial. The difference in the responses to these two stories can hardly be attributed to anything other than the skin color of the perpetrators and the victims involved. Apparently the sexual torture and brutal executions of four promising youngsters is of no interest to the nation's moral guardians, because the victims happen to be white.

Stephen Webster's account of these events provides a revealing window on the disturbing - not to say disgusting -- state of the civil rights delusion in America. The U.S. Justice Department has reported that 85% of all inter-racial violence in America is committed by blacks against whites. But there are apparently no black hate crimes; and there is certainly no white civil rights movement to create sympathy for the victims.

Nor can there be one in the present atmosphere of racial hypocrisy, where the mere expression of concern over attacks on white people would itself make an individual a ripe target for racial witch-hunters.

Because they are black, the Wichita killers have been protected from national scrutiny and have not even been charged with a hate crime. The entire apparatus of local government in Wichita - abetted by the national press -- has worked overtime to keep the public ignorant of what happened. If the truth came out, it would threaten a national melodrama in which only blacks are victims, only blacks are persecuted and only whites are racists. Within the framework of this melodrama, the only acceptable meaning of civil rights is retribution for blacks -- retribution for any and every crime, real or imagined, ever suffered by black people however remote in the past. "Reparations" is just the nom de jour of the new civil rights package.

What would happen if, instead, we returned to the idea of individual accountability, and gave up the totalitarian fantasies of reparations and "social justice," in which oppressed classes exact retribution from their age-old oppressors? What if we returned to the real world in which individuals commit indefensible misdemeanors (Los Angeles) and monstrous crimes (Wichita)? What if we revived the idea of making the punishment fit the actual deed? Think of all the people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if that were to happen.

The fact is that the Wichita horror is but one of many spectacular lynchings of white people by black racists, which the nation's moral watchdogs choose to ignore.

Everybody in America, for example, knows who James Byrd is, and that he was brutally murdered by three whites in Jasper Texas four years ago. Byrd's lynchers offered him a lift in their pickup truck, beat him and chained him and dragged him to his death. An entire nation was outraged and guilty. The President issued a statement, legislators wrung their hands and the media keened over the inhumanity of the act and what it portended for the country's future.

Four years later - this year in fact - a white man named Ken Tillery, hitched a ride in Jasper, Texas. He was given a lift by four black men who then murdered him to a deafening national silence. Like Byrd, Tillery was held hostage and beaten. Then he was run over and crushed to death. The copycat nature of the crime made it a natural news story. But there was none, save a modest account in the Houston Chronicle, to which nobody paid any attention. This savagery was apparently nothing. The pigments were politically incorrect. It was only some white guy, whose ancestors probably owned slaves.

We make no apologies for expressing outrage over these facts or printing the story of the Wichita slayings. We would like to see the trial of these killers reported on Peter Jennings' World News Tonight. We would like to see the story of the murders retold on 60 Minutes or 48 Hours. We would like to see Spike Lee direct a Hollywood feature or Jesse Jackson conduct a pilgrimage to Kansas to plea for racial peace.

But we know these things won't happen. To begin with, Jesse Jackson and Spike Lee don't have the moral intelligence to take these steps. Nor does Peter Jennings. We're regret that this is the case. But we are certain there will not be any bright future for race relations in this country until silences like these are broken.
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Postby Vigis » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:23 pm

Ambar wrote:Usage of that word depends on your race and context. It is not RC (racially correct) to be caucasian and use that word

EVER



I beg to differ. Please see the following examples.

I read a story titled The Nigger of the Narcissus.

I just used the word nigger. However, I did not degrade another human being with it.

In the past, the term nigger was used to describe a skinflint or somebody who was extremely tight with their money. Scrooge was a nigger. However, in recent times, the term nigger has taken on a negative conotation and is used mostly as a slur or insult to define a person of black heritage. While the term nigger harks back to the days of slavery, it is my opinion that it has been administered poorly. The unpaid black slaves were not the niggers at the time, it was the people who refused to harvest crops using paid workers. Applying the term "nigger" to a slave was more a reflection upon the slave owner. Unfortunately, the term stuck, and by sticking it started to rub raw.

I do not believe that using the term "nigger" is acceptable when it is being used as a racial slur.

Long story short, people tend to put too much weight on the connotation of a word. Sometimes, things are just plain too personal. I am sure that people who are offended by the word nigger will be offended by this post, but if we start to think about the denotation of a word, we might think about it a bit more critically.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:07 am

Damned English majors. ;)
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:41 am

I've always taken issue with the double standard surrounding the word 'nigger'. I don't agree with the idea that a certain race can determine a word to be taboo, and then use it liberally among their peers. Doesn't that kind of attitude define racial discrimination?
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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:46 am

Yes it is a double standard that society as a whole allows, and yes I knew the beginnings of the word, but many words take on new meaning as ages and people change.

Still doesnt change the fact Kramer is a racist pig :P
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:58 am

I could care less about a third-rate comic dropping the N-Bomb on his own audience. The larger social issue is what offends me. I'd bet everything I own that the phrase "racist-ass cracker" was uttered by someone over this.

This is a sore spot for me since I got into this with a group of black guys I asked to stop using the word nigger so profusely, they've branded me a racist.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:22 am

It has to do with a sense of community. If you've been through what I've been through, then you have the right to step up and address me in a specified manner, but I will understand the history behind it and know that you have walked that road, as well; therefore I know the term has a completely different connotation coming from somebody with the same experiences.

It seems to be an adopted mechanism, however, something learned at the knees of our parents, because you will very rarely see those who were at the front lines of their battle demeaning what they have gone through in such a way. Auschwitz Jews never lovingly referred to each other as "Kikes" that I know of, and those Vietnam vets who lived through the darkest nightmares of that war never greeted each other as "Killer" in an affectionate manner.

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Postby Kenon » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:50 am

uh, from what I've heard the people in the audience was mocking him with
racial slurs like "whitey" and "whiteboy" and "cracker" long before he said
the N word at all. His intention was to prove that him saying the N word
would cause a riot unlike them standing there ruining his show mocking him
with racial slurs towards white people.

Of course it was wrong of him to fight racism with racism, but that's not the
point here, the point is that he was absolutely right, the moment he started
yelling the N word he had pretty much everyone against him while nobody
had said shit while the idiots in the audience had stood there yelled racial
slurs at him while he was trying to perform his show...

The video clips shown in the media only shows him yelling the N word,
it doesn't show the crowd mocking him long before he went loco...
(Typical media to take things out of its full meaning of course to paint
the picture they want..)


By my personal opinion it's just as much racism of a group of colored
persons to mock a white person with slurs like "whiteboy", "whitey" or
"cracker" as it is for a group of white guys to mock a colored person
with the N word, both cases are racism and wrong.


It's pathetic how much double standards are involved in the way racism
is viewed specially by americans. ALL racism is wrong, period. It is *not*
okay for colored people in USA to use racial slurs towards white people
as an act of revenge for what happened years ago, racism commited by
completely different white people back then. Lots of the white people
that are victim to black on white racism today wasn't even born back
when their parents or grandparents commited racism against the afro-
americans back then.
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:07 am

just having to write or say 'afro-american' is gay as hell.

We don't go around citing others as euro-american, native american, mex-american, puerto-american, canadamerican, japanamerican, etc. It's completely idiotic.

Japanese don't go around citing how they were persecuted in the US during WWII. Polish don't still bitch about how nazi's burned their families..*sigh* You have to move on to be successful.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:33 am

Drache wrote:Japanese don't go around citing how they were persecuted in the US during WWII.


Don't you mean Japanese-Americans? After having been to Nagasaki, I learned that there's plenty of hatred left for what we did during WWII to go around.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:41 am

Drache wrote:just having to write or say 'afro-american' is gay as hell.

We don't go around citing others as euro-american, native american, mex-american, puerto-american, canadamerican, japanamerican, etc. It's completely idiotic.

Japanese don't go around citing how they were persecuted in the US during WWII. Polish don't still bitch about how nazi's burned their families..*sigh* You have to move on to be successful.


Yes, certain groups do refer to themselves as Whatevertheyare-American .. I see nothing wrong with it, I think it's their way of keeping their heritage, but yes after several generations of being American, or if they have never even BEEN to the country they claim as theirs, they should drop the first part. Most African-Americans would be persecuted for being traitors/different if they ever went to Africa in the first place.

Because you think its *gay as hell* does that make you homophobic? :P (I am kidding here, please realize that) ...
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Postby Cirath » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:20 pm

Ambar wrote:Usage of that word depends on your race and context. It is not RC (racially correct) to be caucasian and use that word

EVER


First, Vigis had it right. Context is extremely important. Second, arguing against racism with a racist statement such as that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Ambar wrote:Then to not only USE the word to yell at an audience several times, to declare that you are NOT racist is insane.


To claim that any and every thing said in anger is completely heart-felt and not used simply for effect is equally insane, if not more so.

Ambar wrote:This one goes beyond freedom of speech to stupidity. The word is disgusting, why anyone would use the word anyway is beyond me.


The word is a word. Just because someone is offended by it, doesn't make it inherantly evil. Meanwhile, I have been called "honkey," "cracker" and a number of other racial slurs in my day, and I have yet to see a single person (myself included) get the least bit worked up over it.

Ambar wrote:I jokingly call Michael a dirty spic (he is half Mexican/half Irish (you figure that one out!)). Do I mean it? Hell no, it is allowable because of the way I say it and use it, and to whom I say it (he knows it is a joke so it is OK). I would never dream of saying it in anger, because I dont feel it inside, its a way of joking and *how we are*.


So you can use an ethnic slur in jest, yet you claim that anyone using one particular word, no matter the context or reasoning, is racist?

Ambar wrote:Black folks use the *N* word differently than white folks do. White folks use the word to say someting nasty about a persons color, in general. Simple as that. It is not a freedom of speech thing, it is societal in nature.


Once again, the racism in this statement makes it a poor argument against the use of a word because of its racist connotation.

Ambar wrote:Basically, freedom of speech or not, if you offend one person, you are in the wrong.


And yet, the vast majority of insults recieve no attention what so ever. Why should those aimed at skin color or origin be any different?

Ambar wrote:As a side note, his laughable apology woudlnt have been made if his representatives didnt feel he has errored HUGELY.


His representatives are only concerned with how the publicity will affect his career. Chances are that they couldn't care less whether he was right or wrong. They just don't want to get pay cuts because he alienated a section of his audience and can't afford them anymore.

Kenon wrote:It is *not* okay for colored people in USA to use racial slurs towards white people as an act of revenge for what happened years ago, racism commited by completely different white people back then.


Let us not forget that not all slaves were black. They were just the ones best remembered.

Drache wrote:just having to write or say 'afro-american' is gay as hell.


I occasionally wonder if I should demand to be refered to as Irish-English-Sweedish-American on the census, but then I remember that I've never actually been to any of those countries, much less gained citizenship there, and move on to more important considerations, like whether the paint on my walls is cream or beige.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:18 pm

You know what racial group I hate? That one where people quote huge blocks of text in point-for-point format.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:40 pm

Thing about offense is, it doesn't have to be reciprocal. There is no single word that encapsulates hate and prejudice against white people. If someone calls you a cracker, you probably just laugh at them. That word is empty, it's a placeholder... they could just as easily have said whitey or roundeye. Yeah, it's somewhat offensive that another person is reaching for a way to insult you on a racial level, but the word itself carries no weight.

Nigger carries weight, a lot of it. It has a connotation that no other word in our language shares. Nigger was used in earnest for a long time, by people who knew no other way to address a black person and didn't care to think of one. Nigger was ubiquitous in casual speech, and that's the main reason the word is so charged today... for a long time, the only word people used to address or refer to black people was a word built on racism and inequity.

The Civil Rights movement changed our language, it cordoned off that word from our lexicon, and introduced new ways of addressing black people with respect. It took a long time for whites and blacks to reach a level of linguistic respect... we had to come through negro and colored first, and even "black" is a word that some still find disrespectful. To address a black person as a nigger is to throw back fifty years, to a time when it was socially acceptable to disrespect an entire race of people. That's why you don't use this word, because it implies that not only do you disrespect the person you're addressing, but that you believe they are not worthy of respect or equality.

There is no other word in our language that has such a history. Yes, it's somewhat ironic that most of the negative connotation behind nigger only applies when the word is used by white people. I choose to view it as irony and not reverse racism or hypocrisy. Yes, there is racism in the world, including anti-white racism. But we all have to pick our battles, and this is one I'm just tend to let go.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:34 pm

Ragorn wrote:Thing about offense is, it doesn't have to be reciprocal. There is no single word that encapsulates hate and prejudice against white people. If someone calls you a cracker, you probably just laugh at them. That word is empty, it's a placeholder... they could just as easily have said whitey or roundeye. Yeah, it's somewhat offensive that another person is reaching for a way to insult you on a racial level, but the word itself carries no weight.

Nigger carries weight, a lot of it. It has a connotation that no other word in our language shares. Nigger was used in earnest for a long time, by people who knew no other way to address a black person and didn't care to think of one. Nigger was ubiquitous in casual speech, and that's the main reason the word is so charged today... for a long time, the only word people used to address or refer to black people was a word built on racism and inequity.

The Civil Rights movement changed our language, it cordoned off that word from our lexicon, and introduced new ways of addressing black people with respect. It took a long time for whites and blacks to reach a level of linguistic respect... we had to come through negro and colored first, and even "black" is a word that some still find disrespectful. To address a black person as a nigger is to throw back fifty years, to a time when it was socially acceptable to disrespect an entire race of people. That's why you don't use this word, because it implies that not only do you disrespect the person you're addressing, but that you believe they are not worthy of respect or equality.

There is no other word in our language that has such a history. Yes, it's somewhat ironic that most of the negative connotation behind nigger only applies when the word is used by white people. I choose to view it as irony and not reverse racism or hypocrisy. Yes, there is racism in the world, including anti-white racism. But we all have to pick our battles, and this is one I'm just tend to let go.


That was truly a well thoughout and apt post, but it lacked the word "myriad" so I give it a 7.5
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Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:54 am

Cirath, you win. You are the smartest of us all :) Smarter than me, and .. well smarter than me :)

Congratulations :)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:59 am

Cirath wrote:If you are punished for making a statement, then you are not free to make that statement in the first place.


Bad Cirath, I punish you. Now shut up. (Now does that make you any less free to have said what you said? No. Who's contradictory now?) Criticism is every bit as much free speech as what is being criticized.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:43 am

Drache wrote:blacks frequently refer to whites as honkey or cracker. yet, they don't like others to do the same. some mexican/puertoricans call americans grengos, etc. and also they call racism when a caucasian says something in return. It's pretty strange.


Found this to be interesting:

Black Racism: The Hate Crime That Dare Not Speak It's Name
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 16, 2002

We reported the story of the Wichita Massacre in these pages two years ago at the time it happened. Outside the local Wichita press, however, virtually the only media to report this hate crime were Frontpagemagazine.com and the American Renaissance newsletter. While the federal government rushes to Los Angeles to investigate an incident in which a handcuffed youth was slammed into the hood of a car and punched by an officer, a pall of silence still blankets the horrendous racial murder of four young people whose murderers are now on trial. The difference in the responses to these two stories can hardly be attributed to anything other than the skin color of the perpetrators and the victims involved. Apparently the sexual torture and brutal executions of four promising youngsters is of no interest to the nation's moral guardians, because the victims happen to be white.

Stephen Webster's account of these events provides a revealing window on the disturbing - not to say disgusting -- state of the civil rights delusion in America. The U.S. Justice Department has reported that 85% of all inter-racial violence in America is committed by blacks against whites. But there are apparently no black hate crimes; and there is certainly no white civil rights movement to create sympathy for the victims.

Nor can there be one in the present atmosphere of racial hypocrisy, where the mere expression of concern over attacks on white people would itself make an individual a ripe target for racial witch-hunters.

Because they are black, the Wichita killers have been protected from national scrutiny and have not even been charged with a hate crime. The entire apparatus of local government in Wichita - abetted by the national press -- has worked overtime to keep the public ignorant of what happened. If the truth came out, it would threaten a national melodrama in which only blacks are victims, only blacks are persecuted and only whites are racists. Within the framework of this melodrama, the only acceptable meaning of civil rights is retribution for blacks -- retribution for any and every crime, real or imagined, ever suffered by black people however remote in the past. "Reparations" is just the nom de jour of the new civil rights package.

What would happen if, instead, we returned to the idea of individual accountability, and gave up the totalitarian fantasies of reparations and "social justice," in which oppressed classes exact retribution from their age-old oppressors? What if we returned to the real world in which individuals commit indefensible misdemeanors (Los Angeles) and monstrous crimes (Wichita)? What if we revived the idea of making the punishment fit the actual deed? Think of all the people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if that were to happen.

The fact is that the Wichita horror is but one of many spectacular lynchings of white people by black racists, which the nation's moral watchdogs choose to ignore.

Everybody in America, for example, knows who James Byrd is, and that he was brutally murdered by three whites in Jasper Texas four years ago. Byrd's lynchers offered him a lift in their pickup truck, beat him and chained him and dragged him to his death. An entire nation was outraged and guilty. The President issued a statement, legislators wrung their hands and the media keened over the inhumanity of the act and what it portended for the country's future.

Four years later - this year in fact - a white man named Ken Tillery, hitched a ride in Jasper, Texas. He was given a lift by four black men who then murdered him to a deafening national silence. Like Byrd, Tillery was held hostage and beaten. Then he was run over and crushed to death. The copycat nature of the crime made it a natural news story. But there was none, save a modest account in the Houston Chronicle, to which nobody paid any attention. This savagery was apparently nothing. The pigments were politically incorrect. It was only some white guy, whose ancestors probably owned slaves.

We make no apologies for expressing outrage over these facts or printing the story of the Wichita slayings. We would like to see the trial of these killers reported on Peter Jennings' World News Tonight. We would like to see the story of the murders retold on 60 Minutes or 48 Hours. We would like to see Spike Lee direct a Hollywood feature or Jesse Jackson conduct a pilgrimage to Kansas to plea for racial peace.

But we know these things won't happen. To begin with, Jesse Jackson and Spike Lee don't have the moral intelligence to take these steps. Nor does Peter Jennings. We're regret that this is the case. But we are certain there will not be any bright future for race relations in this country until silences like these are broken.


I'm still waiting for my white grammies.

Honestly, he probably just said it because he is incapable of making a creative insult. He probably just looked for the easiest and harshest thing to say to these people that would get the most rise out of them... they just happend to be black and the word just happend to be nigger. Who really fucking cares, honestly? When they truely want to be considered equal, the word has a chance to go away, but in this society, blacks get coddled by our government and I'm especially sick of it. I'm not racist in the least, but for god's sake -- quit being pussies. They want equality, I will give it to them -- nothing more, nothing less. They call me a cracker, I'll call them a nigger. They call me friend, I'll do the same. They want their black oscars, I'll take my white oscars. they want a united negro college fund (even if we can't say negro), I want my united cracker college fund. If they get hate crimes, I want the shit too.

Richards was pissed and he said something to do the maximum damage possible because he was pissed and unoriginal. He probably isn't a racist, just a really bad stand-up. This is honestly being blown-up way beyond what it should be. And honestly, who the hell cares if he is racist? Spike Lee is racist, but people still watch his shitty movies. Oh yeah, but he's black so he can get away with calling people white devils and defending his people against the white man and their opression. Give me a fucking break.
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Postby Nilan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:19 am

I dont think rascist comments have a place in any civilized society.
I do not like the word nigger in fact i hate it, i think ya gotta be a pretty small insignificant loser of a human to resort to rascist comments like that.

I dont tolerate it.

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Postby Tasan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:05 am

Gormal wrote:You know what racial group I hate? That one where people quote huge blocks of text in point-for-point format.


Hey, fuck you round-eye!

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Postby Sarell » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:33 am

Jake is CLiff racist cos he hates elves or not racist because he hates everything?
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Postby Kenon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:34 am

Gotta love how the media is causing a big scene out of this and not
mentioning that those two black guys were taunting him and using
racial slurs long before he went crazy on the stage.... The fact that those
two black guys were yelling "cracker ass motherfucker" and "whiteboy"
while leaving is being left out of the main media, the only focus is on him
yelling "nigger". They go out and play victim in the media while in reality
they started the racial slurs in that conflict themself, he only started
yelling nigger back at them to prove the point that nobody said shit while
they were taunting him with 'whiteboy' and that if he mentioned the N word
it'd cause a scene.

If those two black guys wouldn't have taunted him before and if they'd
just leave by saying "That was uncalled for." I woulda had respect for
them, but when they initiated the whole conflict by taunting with racial
slurs and other cruel shit before the episode shown in media and even
left the building yelling "cracker ass motherfucker" and "whiteboy" and
stuff they should just shut the hell up with playing wounded victim afterwards...


Some eye witness wrote:"I was there. The guy he was yelling at was being an Ass Hole. He started the racist shit first. He wouldn't shut up. They called him at least 10 different names. He said "you suck, your an idiot, a dumb ass white mother #$%#er" and on and on. You only see 2 minutes. It was 10 minutes of two Black guys #$%#ing with him. They tried to piss him off and it worked."
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Postby Nilan » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:06 am

Please end this post....

Nilan
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Postby Kenon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:13 am

Nilan wrote:I do not like the word nigger in fact i hate it, i think ya gotta be a pretty small insignificant loser of a human to resort to rascist comments like that.

I dont tolerate it.



But you do tolerate two black guys sitting in an audience mocking a
performer with all sorts of cruel stuff including the racial slur "whiteboy"?

Racism is totally wrong, BOTH ways. Even if it was wrong of Richards to
battle their racism with racism they had it coming for them the moment
they used the word "whiteboy" while trying to piss him off.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:47 am

Kenon wrote:But you do tolerate two black guys sitting in an audience mocking a
performer with all sorts of cruel stuff including the racial slur "whiteboy"?

Racism is totally wrong, BOTH ways. Even if it was wrong of Richards to
battle their racism with racism they had it coming for them the moment
they used the word "whiteboy" while trying to piss him off.


He just said he HATES ANY racist comments, why would he tolerate any form of it?

Racism is ignorant, in any form. Excusing it in the form of *he woudlnt say it unless he was angry* is also ignorant. He said it. He feels it. Period. This is why you chose your words carefully. He should have been prepared for heckling by having pre-prepared comebacks, I would hazard a guess that he wishes he did! Angry words hurt more than physically beatings simply because look, its a week later and we are STILL talking about it! It took less time for Paris Hiltons DUI to lose fervor!
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