Healthcare gripes in America (strand tugged from Justice)

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Lilira
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Healthcare gripes in America (strand tugged from Justice)

Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:25 am

There.. Lath, Ashi and I can continue our rants here.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:52 am

Lathander wrote:They still offer health plans. The only problem is that Wal*Mart is bottom of the barrel in terms of quality. This is why they don't compete too hard for good people because you expect dregs to be working there. KMart is a bad example because it includes the Sears people as well.

What adult is idiotic enough to work for $8.23 an hour? Seriously, it is impossible to do it and you'd have to be stupid and irresponsible to try to have kids and have a main job at Wal*Mart. Hell, secretaries in my office make $14 bucks an hour. Now if you are in a depressed area like Pittsburgh, $8.23 an hour might actually be enough.

I'm just confused on why you would use the lowest common denominator as an example. Most folks would not expect to try to raise a family with the primary bread winner working at Wal*Mart.


Look around Lath, and estimate the workforce numbers that are employed with WalMart. One of the largest employers in the US.

As for their healthcare... Great policies, but the employees have to pay almost the full premium on that, with very little funded by the company. Same goes for the life insurance, dental, and all the other little "perks" listed. An employee, spouse and children plan would cost the employees an enormous chunk of their pay.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:25 am

Lathander,

I cannot believe that you are so far disconnected from contemporary America that you think taking a job that pays $8.23 an hour makes you an idiot.

What it takes is an idiot to believe that they can't raise a family while working for a living.

Do you even know how many people _on _this _mud are raising their families doing things like working at Wal Mart?

Something you need to understand is that salaries change depending on where you are. Secretaries doing the exact same job as your secretaries in your office may be paid 8.23 in another region of the country.

Another thing you need to understand is that being a secretary is a skilled position, one you can't just jump to from your factory/retail/labor job.

Frankly, 8.23 is a living wage just above the poverty line. There's nothing stupid about that.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:11 am

Hmm, $8.23? That is definately on the low scale of things in this country. I would definately say anyone who works a job like that for more than 6 months to a year is definately selling themself short. Lack of ambition or motivation maybe. Or maybe just a really bad home town and never had the ambition or sense enough to move away from where they grew up. I dunno, nothing against it. I personally would not work for anywhere near that and would move to Alaska (well Minnesota in my case I guess, close enough) to do better for myself.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:09 pm

Let me chime in :) I love you lath .. but that REALLY hit a rough spot for me ..

I worked for a YEAR as a bank teller at a WHOPPING 9.12 per hour .. I accepted in at 8.00 (by the way I took a 75% pay cut in Nov 2005 when I retired from the Navy.) What I did was accept a NORMAL bankers salary for this area .. because it was a foot in the door for experience and GREAT health care/other benefits at a reasonable price (I did stay with the Navy health care .. why wouldnt i? but I needed immediate denatal and vision)

I stayed as long as I did because I do get the Navy retirement pay (such as it is .. pittance) So that boosted me to poverty level pay

Why did I leave? Pay .. thats it .. PAY .. I am now making about the same as a 20 year teller does for this area .. and I could NOT have turned that down .. Had they offered me a better position with better pay I'd have stayed beucase I loved the job!

People who work at walmart do so because they gotta do what they gotta do to get by .. What we DONT hear about is the fact they often have 2 and 3 jobs to support their families And MOST retail doesnt offer part time employees healthcare at all .. and you have to be full time for a YEAR before the benefits kick in (didnt read the walmart article so I dont know about them .. I do know Bed Bath and Beyond was that way ..)

But guess what .. They have jobs! They are trying to make ends meet the best they can.

This area has a LOT of money but HERE the minimum wage is still below 6$ ...
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:11 pm

Jaz .. to move a family costs LOTS of money .. how can they move without the money to move?
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Postby Osheara » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:41 pm

Wow...you know pay does change dramatically from state to state. From what I've seen in the southern states is there are much lower pay rates than almost anywhere else in the country, but it's also in relation to what the cost of living is as well.

One of the biggest things I've seen....look at Walt Disney World. In Florida, the chances that someone has NOT worked there at one point or another is very very slim.

They employ, I think it's 35000 people now? Think about that...within a matter of miles. Do you know what they pay? crap. Bare minimum for at least half of those jobs. And they changed their raise policy within the past 5 years so that if you work for the company for 3 years, you get a $1 raise now I think total...it used to be, you worked for the company for 3 years, you'd get that nice $9 an hour....yeah, hardly.

But you know what they have...benefits. So you have all these people, working for stuff you can't live off of, but even part timers now have the ability to get benefits. And I think it's one of the very very few companies in FL to be under a Union. Half the companies here are skimpy on the insurance, and with a right-to-work state, keeping a job can be an issue that employers abuse at will. Mall jobs, Torist attraction jobs...these are all highly in demand jobs and people never want to pay more than is needed. But they are respectable jobs, even if they don't pay well.

So what do people do to make it up? Like Ambar said, work two jobs, work overtime, as many people in the household can work, do...and more and more people are having to do that who used to work those comfy office jobs, those 'career' jobs they went to school for...because they can be replaced. It's accepted by society. To ask them to move because they 'might' do better somewhere else in the country is unreasonable. Why should they give up their homes to be able to live if they don't have to? People will always need to do what they can to support themselves and their families. With families you need healthcare, good healthcare comes from large companies who pay little, people take the pay cut to get them...those companies know they will.

It's respectable and in many cases, there are not many options out there. People do what they need to do to take care of their families. The world, and certainly not our country, hardly makes it easier on them.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:14 pm

There are big regional differences in income and in cost of living. I used Pittsburgh as an example of a very depressed area. Compared to the DC area, things are amazing cheap in Pittsburgh area but the wages are also lower. The southern states tend to be lower wages which is why you are seeing alot of busniesses moving there and also they are getting migration into the southern states from other parts of the country.

Low paying hourly job are a gateway, a way to start your career and get experience. In 1986, my first job at 15 was working at Burger King making $5.15 an hour. That is fine for a teenager, but I really don't think anyone would expect a guy making 5.15 an hour to actually try to raise a family. Also, if that guy tried to, they would get lots of public assistance such as food stamps and other social programs. I simply believe it is irresponsible to expect to only work the minimum needed for a minimum wage job.

Let's use Ambar as an example at a bank. You've been there for a couple of years. I don't know what bank you work for, but many have bonuses associated for doing more work. A good example is if you are referring clients over to the financial/brokerage division of your bank. Also, many banks give bonuses to tellers for upselling bank services to clients. Once someone can do that, they really start to get promotions and can even move into management or over to the mortgage or brokerage division of the bank.

I know someone that is going to hopefully start with our firm. He is at a smaller local bank and works in a role just under the bank branch manager. He makes about 45K which translates into about $20 an hour. He is coming over to our field and taking a short term pay cut because if he is successful, he will make alot more than 45K. Now he'll work 70 or 80 hours a week for four to five years, but he can easily get into 6 figures if he works hard.

As Jaz said, you need to have the ambition and drive to decide to be successful. It's not easy, but nothing worth having is. If it was easy, everyone would have it. I interviewed another guy in my same field making 40K and talking to him about coming over to our firm. I explained it was going to be alot of work but he could be very successful. He then told me he actually wanted to work less to spend more time with his family. Suffice to say, the interview ended soon after because he did not really want to be successful. Anyone can say they want to make alot of money, but there is a difference between wanting it and deciding to pay the price to get it.

I think it is great you did the research on the bank job and saw that you'd take a short term step back but have great benefits and a strong future.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:23 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Hmm, $8.23? That is definately on the low scale of things in this country. I would definately say anyone who works a job like that for more than 6 months to a year is definately selling themself short. Lack of ambition or motivation maybe. Or maybe just a really bad home town and never had the ambition or sense enough to move away from where they grew up. I dunno, nothing against it. I personally would not work for anywhere near that and would move to Alaska (well Minnesota in my case I guess, close enough) to do better for myself.


Alright folks...

Its attitudes like this that are driving up the costs in the US and sending jobs out of the country.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for higher wages etc, but higher wages = higher operating costs for businesses = higher prices = people wanting more money.

So.. companies decide to outsource things like telemarketing, customer service etc as well as other "soft jobs" where they can get away with paying 4 bucks an hour and the people in the country are quite happy and able to live on that 4 bucks. Heck they can live like kings on that 4 bucks an hour.

As for secretarial jobs...

I got all my training working for two years as a "temp" in the smallish town of Carlsbad, NM. In that time I probably logged 18 hours of official computer training on various basic office software applications. That doesn't include all the stuff I learned as I was going or the little tricks and such other people taught me or I figured out. Not to mention all the software I learned that didn't have tutorials. When I finally landed a perm position, I started at $7.25 an hour and over 4 years busted my butt to get to $9.

Nope, didn't get the college degree to back it up. Don't really want to either. All my training was practical and in a way that suited the company more because I learned what they wanted me to. We've moved to an area with a higher population, and guess what.. basic secretaries are paid about the same if not a little less. Why? Cus they're a dime a dozen and there are far more qualified than there are jobs for them.

I have plans for an education, and as soon as my youngest starts school, Mommy will too. Do I want to be a secretary? Not on your life.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:23 pm

20 year tellers here make 14/hr ...

i got the hell outta dodge to be able to stop using credit to survive :P good to actually have a balance in checking account!!

and no im not mad at you goofball :P i said i wub ya

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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:33 pm

Lathander wrote:As Jaz said, you need to have the ambition and drive to decide to be successful. It's not easy, but nothing worth having is. If it was easy, everyone would have it. I interviewed another guy in my same field making 40K and talking to him about coming over to our firm. I explained it was going to be alot of work but he could be very successful. He then told me he actually wanted to work less to spend more time with his family. Suffice to say, the interview ended soon after because he did not really want to be successful. Anyone can say they want to make alot of money, but there is a difference between wanting it and deciding to pay the price to get it.


Oh look!

We're back to the family values thing! That man is not going to be "successful" cus he put his family first. Does his spouse work outside of the home too? If so who is raising their children? Teachers? Paid daycare?

The big decision for my husband and I to tighten our belts and let me stay home was the day my daughter came home at two years old and started murmuring the rosary. I have no beef with catholicism, but its not how we want to raise our children. We realized that not only were we getting taxed to death by the government for being married with both of us working, someone else was raising our child with their values. So I quit, we made some sacrifices and I stayed home. Do I regret it? Nope. I'm just glad we had that luxury.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:36 pm

Clearly, Lilira, you're just lazy and don't deserve healthcare for your daughter.


Or at least that's what I'm getting from Lathander...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:49 pm

Lack of ambition is clearly a factor in accepting and staying at a job that pays 8.23, but not everyone can have career ambitions when they are perhaps a career mother, just working a second job to bring a little more income into the home.

The assumption that there can always be ambition and lofty career goals is deeply flawed.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:55 pm

So just what kind of price do single mothers pay for that kind of job?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:55 pm

The assumption that ambition is all there is to it is deeply flawed.
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Choices

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:01 pm

Lilira made the same choice my wife and I had to make. She stays home with the girls during the day (and teaches them the rosary :P). We don't go out at all, we don't eat out, we haven't taken a "vacation" since our honeymoon. It's tight, sometimes a little too tight, but we manage. Once the girls are in school, she's going back to work. For now though, once I get home and we eat together as a family, she goes to her little night job to help us earn a little more, and I tuck the kids to sleep. The amount she earns per month is laughable, but every bit helps. So I end up seeing her for about 1.5hrs a day during the week.

However, I'm working like a horse, taking on any additional jobs I can get at work that will pay me more money. So while I see my kids for an average of 30 mins each day during the week, we have the money. I think that's what Lathander was getting at really. Dunno.

The thing is, many people stay in cities/towns that have horrible wages/employment opportunities, instead of moving to places that have much better ones. Some love the small town life, and don't complain at all. For others, it's the opposite. But I think that if you "choose" to remain somewhere with less options, hey, it's your choice. Don't complain about the results.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:25 pm

My wife and I had to make that choice as well. What we do is she works on the weekend and uses wednesday for her manager meetings. I work monday through friday with some appointments on the weekend. We try to get our parents to help, but I sometimes take my 3month old into work or to an appointment with me. I just have to make sure and schedule her feeding to fit in with the time. Notice, I have arranged things to give us the flexibility to choose how we do things.

This arrangement will not last forever, but when it doesn't we'll figure out the next step. Right now, we figure to do some of the things my wife wants to do, she has to work to get those. After that, we'll have to go on one income although we could do that now; we just couldn't have the ethan allen junk.

Look, I know bad things happen to folks, I expect that is how most single moms come into existence. Personally, I think society is wrong because men are allowed to walk away altough I'm sure the men walking away is probably good in some cases.

I think it is a silly thing to say a single mom can't get ahead. I know many that do it. Is it more work? Of course, but many do it. Does it mean maybe you move closer to your parents to help with the kid, sure.

Sarvis, I would assume that Lilira and her partner made an educated decision based on him working as well. I would expect they still have health insurance through his work, although I could be wrong.

Finally, everyone should go see the new Will Smith movie. There is a single father with a kid that becomes a success. Sucess is mostly a fuction of how bad you want it and what you are willing to do to get it.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:35 pm

Hey Adriorn, you were the one that gave me that link to Ben Stein right? That was awesome, maybe put that up here?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:44 pm

Oh I see, so you're supposed to move to where the opportunities are AND stay close to your parents in case you need help?

Look, Lathander, all these beliefs you espouse come from a time when it was possible for a father to work 9 to 5, Monday through Friday and provide everything his family needed. The problem is that the world no longer works that way. These days only working 9 to 5 is lazy, and your standard workday is actually 9 to 6 with expected overtime. Meanwhile it's become the norm for both parents to work, which strains marriages, leaves kids uncared for AND lowers wages due to the extra job seekers.

In the midst of all this, you expect people who are barely getting by to work more jobs, take risky moves across country to where "opportunities" are AND still find a way to pay for high deductible insurance that will be useless to them when they can't afford the deductible.

But to you, anyone who might want to see their family once in a while is lazy. Anyone who can't afford to move across country, away from the familial support network you just suggested they rely upon, is an idiot. Anyone stuck working at Wal Mart because their high paying technical job webt overseas is an idiot for trying to raise a family on Wal Mart wages. Nevermind that he was probably making 3 times as much when he had the kids in the first place.
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Oh yeah

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:57 pm

Here's the link Lathander suggested (I think):

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/18699


Btw Sarvis, since you like Voltaire:

"In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other." - Voltaire
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Postby Vigis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:05 pm

I do think that the guy that works at Wal-Mart for a sub-par wage and expects to raise a family is an idiot. Some people at Wal-Mart are taken care of very well (I've been to the corporate office in Bentonville, AR on business).

Having a retail job as an adult and trying to use it as your primary source of income is just not intelligent. You can, and I know it for fact because I have done it, make more delivering pizzas for Domino's or as a waiter with a base pay of $3.45.

Before we moved to Omaha, I worked 4 jobs in order to save the money to move. Yes it helped that Grandma took the boy for the summer, but I was working my full-time job, delivering pizzas, working concessions at the race-track, and dealing black-jack anytime I could pick up a shift. We paid for the move.

Over Christmas, we went on vacation. We had planned to fly, but our flights got canceled so we rented a car. Driving to Montana from Nebraska is less fun than you would think. While going through Wyoming we stopped in either Cheyenne or Sheridan at a K-mart. They had a sign posted that they were paying $9/hr + benefits to cart-pushers. Jobs are where you look for them. The blue collar workers from the rust belt are flocking to Wyoming because of the boom in coal-mining. They can make more money in a town with a lower cost of living, lower crime, and a smaller population.

People have choices in everything that they do, and they have the freedom to do what is necessary to achieve their goals.
Last edited by Vigis on Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:10 pm

I don't know about all that. There are folks that don't want to get ahead and are happy making 40 to 60K as a household. They get to spend time with their families, but it means they are also giving up other things.

Let me give you another example. I met with a woman in her mid 30's. She is married with 3 kids and a husband. Also, her father lives with them. The husband is a bit of an idiot and makes 30K with no real potential to make anymore. She is smart, but she got into trouble when she was younger gettting pregnant too early. In addition, she had some medical issues that prevented her from working. She makes 30K as a nursing tech which she can do because she was in the military.

I sat down with her and went over their situation. She wants to go back to school to get her BS in nursing which means she'll make 60 to 80K instead of 30K as a tech. She came to me to try to help her figure it out.

After talking, we were able to put together a plan. Luckily, they don't have any debt other than a mortgage which is 1300 a month. They were smart and didn't buy too much house. I told her don't take out any loans as you can't be sure you'll get through college. We talked about pell grants, which I believe she will because their deductions should take them below the income limit. Also, there are a number of other state programs and grants for women to further their career.

That meeting was 4 months ago. She has implemented some recommendations I made with this and a couple of others things. She is starting in the fall at a community college accelerated program. She'll attend at night and it'll be hellish for a couple of years, but if she makes it through, her and her family will be much better off.

Sarvis, I believe that darkness in folks' lives is just waiting for the sun to come up on their morning. Yes, that couple could sit there and wallow in their situation and do nothing. Instead, they will be alot better without taking too much risk by borrowing as she was considering. I reiterate that anyone can be successful as long as they are willing to do what is needed.
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Postby daggaz » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:13 pm

The effective minimum wage in denmark is about 15 dollars an hour depending on exchange rates. Right now its actually closer to 20 bucks an hour. (You can work for as little as around 10, but you would have to be an idiot to take such a job.)

You pay maybe 32-35% tax from this. There is also a 25% salestax, which nobody really notices because its automatically added to all the prices. (You notice it when you go to another country like germany and everything is cheaper.)

For this tax you get full healthcare from the day you are born to the day you die. This includes any tests, exams, surgeries (even complicated ones), medical equipment, what have you.. You pay for medications, but there are lots of ways to get money back, especially for expensive medications. You need to buy your own dental insurance.

You also get free education at any university in denmark you can qualify for. They will pay for you to study abroad as well (theres a limit tho).

Homelessness is virtually nonexistant, except for the hard core alcoholics and other messed up people who more or less 'choose' to live on the dole and use the money for drugs/booze. And we pay the poor bastards, why not, they are less than 1% of the population. Most other people use the welfare to get back into work.

Finally, you get all the standard infrastructure etc yada yada you would expect from an income tax. (Did you know 0% of your federal income tax pays for such things in america? All of it goes to service the national debt. Infrastructure is payed for by state taxes, lottery funds, and similiar local levies.

I was home for the first time in four years this christmas. Oregon is slipping deeper and deeper into economic mysery. It was extremely depressing.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:22 pm

Working hard and desire is a PART of getting ahead. Along with that go opportunity and circumstance. Nobody wants to believe that's part of the equation, but there it is, life happens. Companies fold, economies take a downturn, families split up, wage-earners are lost. Your circumstances are not the same as somebody else's. The opportunities you were given as a child were not the same as everybody else's, doors did not open and close in the same rhythm in your life as they did your neighbor's.

The life you make is your own, but you don't always have the same tools to work with. You don't grow up with the same tools, the same values, the same drive... hell, you don't even grow up with the same metabolism.

A single mother is capable of making it, yes... if her company understands that she will have to take extra days off work to pick up her sick children from school, or that she will have to leave work for a family emergency, or that she will have to bow out of the short-notice mandatory overtime due to a lack of childcare in the evenings. Every minute you spend away from work affects your promotability. That's one of the main reasons your absences are tracked in most jobs. It affects how far you move in your company and the raises you get.

Check the statistics on single mothers and level of salary across the nation. To suggest that those women don't have the drive to succeed is silly. Across the board the education levels are lower, the salaries are lower, the living standards are lower. It takes two incomes for most families nowadays to make a household work, and single mothers don't even take home what single men do.

So single mothers usually end up on welfare. What happens when a single mother tries to go off welfare and gets a job? Daycare is one of the first benefits lost, believe it or not.

Without education, single mothers are pretty much trapped on welfare, because the last thing a decent mother wants to give up for her children is healthcare. The lower end jobs she can get don't offer affordable healthcare programs, and even if they did, every spare penny would be spent on daycare to keep her working. Job with no healthcare, or welfare?

And welfare breeds babies who have more babies on welfare, people who grew up on the dole and don't even know what it's like to have to be self-supportive. People who watched their mothers passed over for promotions and given crap reviews year after year because they had to take time off for chickenpox and the measles. People who grow up in abusive and dysfunctional families.

You can't fix what's wrong with things like the justice system until you can fix the people. And you can't fix the people until you can address the main issues of their lives.

I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who have stayed with the same dead-end job for years just because they're afraid to walk away from their healthcare. The majority of people are not educated when it comes to insurance, and wouldn't have a clue when it comes to taking out their own policy, even if cost weren't an issue. Even people who DO have the education and drive to work at a better job... do you have cancer, diabetes, a heart condition, or any other health problem? Are you going to walk away from your health insurance and take the risk of something happening while you're between jobs or coverage? Are you going to take out an individual policy that may not cover your pre-existing conditions, especially a high deductible policy during a time when you may not have any income coming into the household, or your income is reduced to the point of not really even making ends meet?

What about the guy with the 70 IQ, are you going to tell him he has the same opportunities as everybody else? Or the person with functional Down's? Or the quadriplegic? Oh wait, but they have disability, right? Be sure to write a letter to the IRS telling them you want your $300.00 back off that program. I'm sure they'll understand.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:36 pm

Lathander wrote:I don't know about all that. There are folks that don't want to get ahead and are happy making 40 to 60K as a household. They get to spend time with their families, but it means they are also giving up other things.


$40-60k is quite a lot to most of the families I know. Hell, it would be a lot to me these days.

Let me give you another example. I met with a woman in her mid 30's. She is married with 3 kids and a husband. Also, her father lives with them. The husband is a bit of an idiot and makes 30K with no real potential to make anymore. She is smart, but she got into trouble when she was younger gettting pregnant too early. In addition, she had some medical issues that prevented her from working. She makes 30K as a nursing tech which she can do because she was in the military.


So we're talking an upper middle class family then, with an income of $60k. You think they have the same limitations a family working 2 jobs and earning $35k does? You also said she had some medical problems, so we have to assume her husband or possibly father has some really good medical insurance to take care of that. Plenty of families have real trouble with medical expenses, even if they do have insurance.


I sat down with her and went over their situation. She wants to go back to school to get her BS in nursing which means she'll make 60 to 80K instead of 30K as a tech. She came to me to try to help her figure it out.


Funny thing about that. I should have made $60-80k as a programmer when I graduated. That's why there was such a big rush into that major back when I started. I guess we'll just have to pray that she does get a $60k job after all that work, rather than being stuck back with a $29K job like I am now.

Or do we get to ignore market forces when we try to use anecdotes to make a point?

After talking, we were able to put together a plan. Luckily, they don't have any debt other than a mortgage which is 1300 a month. They were smart and didn't buy too much house. I told her don't take out any loans as you can't be sure you'll get through college. We talked about pell grants, which I believe she will because their deductions should take them below the income limit. <b>Also, there are a number of other state programs and grants for women to further their career.</b>



So we've already admitted some luck on this, AND she gets help from the mean 'ole government? Remember Lath, you're arguing AGAINST the government helping people.

if she makes it through, her and her family will be much better off.


Assuming that nursing jobs don't go the way of IT jobs.


Sarvis, I believe that darkness in folks' lives is just waiting for the sun to come up on their morning. Yes, that couple could sit there and wallow in their situation and do nothing. Instead, they will be alot better without taking too much risk by borrowing as she was considering. I reiterate that anyone can be successful as long as they are willing to do what is needed.


And the government helps you out, and you had good insurance so that medical problems didn't leave you in massive debt and you have a nice middle class income to start from.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:38 pm

daggaz wrote:All of it goes to service the national debt.


HAHAHAHAHAHa.

God that's funny.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:03 pm

Sorry, I admit, I'm not a communist. I believe in a meritocracy where folks earn what they have. I don't believe in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

Society does though have a safety net for those you describe Ash: Welfare, State Assistance, Social Security programs, and a myraid of other programs. That said, the situation of the poor is supposed to be unfavorable why else would anyone ever work hard to get out of it?

Personally, I think if you are on welfare, you should be put on birth control to prevent compounding the problem of kids out of wedlock. Now it will never happen, and probably shouldn't because it goes against folks' civil rights. Barring preventing them from making their situation worse without accountability, then we should give the bare minimum to those people.

You're right we need to educate people to be able to really review things like health insurance. Also, men and women need to be taught to not hook up with losers, although I would assume that the loser subset would still hookup with each other to procreate.

I know how hard it is to teach people things which is one reason in my field why I take lots of notes. Trying explaining things like life insurance, ltc insurance and the whole universe of things that can affect them. Even with education though, alot of folks are going to look at it from a short term perspective. Many folks DECIDE not to get health insurance because they can use the money for things like vacations and other things. Then when something bad happens, they complain.

The answer is what some states are doing like MA with health care, forcing people to get it. Personally, I don't like this because I don't believe the government should force use to spend our money beyond what they do with our taxes. The argument to that is they already do with our cars where in most states you have to have car insurance.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:17 pm

Lathander wrote:Sorry, I admit, I'm not a communist. I believe in a meritocracy where folks earn what they have. I don't believe in "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".


Really? Then why are you advising people to take government handouts to go back to school?

But nice use of straw man, because you KNOW we're all advocating communism here. Clearly everyone who hasn't made their first million by the age of 25 should get to watch their kids die of some disease, because they aren't good enough to get health care. :roll:
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:40 pm

You continue to wow and amaze with the comebacks.

Most everyone has healthcare is my real argument since if you don't have it, you still have to be treated at public hospitals as well as various government and corporate plans available.

Effectively, we have universal healthcare.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:45 pm

We told you you were paying for it anyway in the initial thread. It's your call if you'd rather pay $400/year in insurance premiums and lowered wages than $300 in taxes just so that you can avoid having to think we've gone communist. Of course, your $400/year means you still have to pay $50 for an emergency room visit, $100 for the drugs just to treat something as simple as bronchitis, and you get the possibility of going bankrupt if you get some serious ilness.

But at least no one got something they didn't "earn" right?

Wowing you with responses eh? Why not scream communism again? Can't get a better straw man in this country!
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:54 pm

Wow.. this thread has touched a nerve or two.. lets keep it civil though so it doesn't get locked out.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:57 pm

And there we go, precisely the point where we started. Effectively we do have socialized healthcare already, but we have an exceedingly inefficient form of it known as welfare that breeds abuse and dependency.

Those who do their best to avoid the welfare trap, but still can't get far above minimum wage, are stuck without healthcare and end up more and more in debt whenever they get sick. Or they end up in the ER over issues which don't require emergency care. Or they don't go to the doctor because they're afraid of the cost and end up with years and years of treatment for their cancer when they could have just had it excised and had mild chemo if they'd gone when the first "minor" symptoms showed up. Or they get some form of "relief" which is another form of welfare that the rest of us end up paying for anyway.

Any way you look at it, the rest of us are paying for it, and everybody suffers to a degree.

Okay, so we've determined that we're all already paying for everybody else's medical care. And Daggaz has chimed in about the conditions in Denmark.

Anybody else like to contribute about the conditions in other countries that utilize socialized medicine?
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:04 pm

What you miss is that yes the low end has effective healthcare, but they are rationed it by long waits at emergency rooms. Also, many doctors will not work those government programs. This means that the experience of those who pay for health insurance is better. What would happen is that those that enjoy better healthcare now would be subject to a worse healthcare system under a socialized program.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:09 pm

Ashiwi wrote:And there we go, precisely the point where we started. Effectively we do have socialized healthcare already, but we have an exceedingly inefficient form of it known as welfare that breeds abuse and dependency.

Those who do their best to avoid the welfare trap, but still can't get far above minimum wage, are stuck without healthcare and end up more and more in debt whenever they get sick. Or they end up in the ER over issues which don't require emergency care. Or they don't go to the doctor because they're afraid of the cost and end up with years and years of treatment for their cancer when they could have just had it excised and had mild chemo if they'd gone when the first "minor" symptoms showed up. Or they get some form of "relief" which is another form of welfare that the rest of us end up paying for anyway.

Any way you look at it, the rest of us are paying for it, and everybody suffers to a degree.

Okay, so we've determined that we're all already paying for everybody else's medical care. And Daggaz has chimed in about the conditions in Denmark.

Anybody else like to contribute about the conditions in other countries that utilize socialized medicine?


I doubt we really have the pbase to get a good sampling here. :( I know that when the discussion comes up in Fark threads, several Canadians always pop in saying their healthcare system is good overall, but sometimes a little lacking in the more rural areas. Of course, I'd expect that to be true of our system as well...

I also so a ranking of healthcare systems done by, I think, the WHO which placed the US well below most countries with socialized medicine. Unfortunately I can't find the damn thing... been looking since this discussion started. :(
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:12 pm

Lathander wrote:What you miss is that yes the low end has effective healthcare, but they are rationed it by long waits at emergency rooms. Also, many doctors will not work those government programs. This means that the experience of those who pay for health insurance is better. What would happen is that those that enjoy better healthcare now would be subject to a worse healthcare system under a socialized program.


Cite something that shows our healthcare system is better than Canada's.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:22 pm

In Canada, as with any socialized system, you have too few doctors usually. See, for a socialized program to work, you have to cut out costs and the biggest labor cost in healthcare is doctors. If you pay them less, you get fewer doctors. Also, doctors in the US make much more than docs in Canada.

Also, because everyone is completely equal in a socialized program, productivity is lost when the most productive have to wait in line to get taken care of. In most countries with socialized healthcare, it is against the law to pay more to get better care in that country since it would defeat the whole system.

We do pay more in the US, but we also, in the aggregate, get better healthcare than other countries. It is more readily available to those with insurance and particularly for those that pay the most for PPO types. Personally, I don't mind pay more to get more.

The real answer is sort of what they are trying to do with catastrophic health care/high deductible plans with HSA's to use market forces. I just think it is wrong to tax people with better health insurance as Bush is suggesting. Luckily, he doesn't have a hope in hell of getting just like his earlier idea to limit mortgage interest deduction.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:57 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Lathander wrote:What you miss is that yes the low end has effective healthcare, but they are rationed it by long waits at emergency rooms. Also, many doctors will not work those government programs. This means that the experience of those who pay for health insurance is better. What would happen is that those that enjoy better healthcare now would be subject to a worse healthcare system under a socialized program.


Cite something that shows our healthcare system is better than Canada's.


Cite something that shows that it isn't. The American health care system has greater capacity, capability, and accessibility than any other health care system in the world.

Why do you think people keep coming here for treatment of serious diseases like cancer, autoimmune dysfunction, and critical procedures in plastic surgury?
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:04 am

This is what passes for citation among conservatives?

Also, because everyone is completely equal in a socialized program, productivity is lost when the most productive have to wait in line to get taken care of. In most countries with socialized healthcare, it is against the law to pay more to get better care in that country since it would defeat the whole system.


Maybe Vista would have shipped on time if programmers could afford the doctors Gates' uses then. :roll:

We do pay more in the US, but we also, in the aggregate, get better healthcare than other countries. It is more readily available to those with insurance and particularly for those that pay the most for PPO types. Personally, I don't mind pay more to get more.


You're supposed to be citing something which shows we get more for the extra money. Just restating yourself doesn't equal citation.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:11 am

I think, Sarvis, that if you're going to attack the largest, most capable, highest capacity, and most accessible health care system in the world, that YOU had better come up with a citation of some sort.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:11 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Why do you think people keep coming here for treatment of serious diseases like cancer, autoimmune dysfunction, and critical procedures in plastic surgury?


I dunno, maybe we should ask the Canadians:

"We are overwhelmed by you (expletive deleted) Americans," an exasperated emergency-room physician at a Canadian hospital across the border from upstate New York told one of my friends, whose girlfriend had driven him the eight hours from Manhattan to Quebec after he'd fallen down some stairs and broken his arm. - http://fe66.news.sp1.yahoo.com/s/ucru/2 ... lintrouble
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:13 am

Very, very weak. One hospital that provides free services near the US border.

Way to go. You would see this happen at any free clinic.


While laughing at that source, I'd like to point out that there are more healthcare insured people in this country than any other country in the world. Unless you count China. Don't forget to ask about their one-child forced abortion policy.

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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:24 am

When you go to work, you are essentially selling your time. Your typical wal mart employee is rational just like anyone else, and is working for the most money available based upon his/her skills (or lack thereof). Their time is not worth a penny more, nor a penny less.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:26 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Very, very weak. One hospital that provides free services near the US border.

Way to go. You would see this happen at any free clinic.


It's Teflor, I should have known better.

I'm still waiting for something more authoritative than Lathander to say different though.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:33 am

Corth wrote:When you go to work, you are essentially selling your time. Your typical wal mart employee is rational just like anyone else, and is working for the most money <b>available</b> based upon his/her skills (or lack thereof). Their time is not worth a penny more, nor a penny less.


Available is a pretty important word in that sentence Corth. Try to imagine that tomorrow all Ambulance Chasing was made illegal, and the only work "available" was a cashier at Wal Mart. Then get back to us.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:45 am

errm Sarvis, I think he is defending the blue collar worker unless I am mistaken ..
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Postby Lathander » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:46 am

I don't believe in lots and lots of citations unless I'm writing a 5 page or greater report. Even looking at pro canada style arguments, they say you do have greater waiting periods with better off canadians going across the border to the US to get the care they need since they can afford it.

Really its just common sense Sarvis. Even the Canadian Supreme Court said that access to a wait line is not the same as access to healthcare.

I'll humor you though, so here are some few links.

http://home.ca.inter.net/~grantsky/medicine.html
http://groups.msn.com/CanadaToday/healthcare.msnw
http://primaryhealthcare.blogspot.com/
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/thecure/reviews.htm
http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.co ... thcare.htm
http://www.ldwpublishing.com/august%2005%20weblog.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/is ... lized.html
http://tangfactor.blogspot.com/2005/11/ ... hcare.html

Do me a favor though, don't be an idiot and start quoting select sections. Simply state your viewpoint on something. Big quote sections are not effective.
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Postby Lathander » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:55 am

Actually, most blue collar workers have health insurance if they are in a union or with a large company.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:44 am

Some varying opinions:

http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/healthcare.htm

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Healt ... watch.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1119774

http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?id=1503

http://www.independent.org/publications ... icleID=593

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12699453/

With quote:

America may be the world’s superpower, but its survival rate for newborn babies ranks near the bottom among modern nations, better only than Latvia.




Oh, but this is probably the one you might want to look at:

http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/a ... index.html

Where it quotes:
To our dismay, this year’s report once again documents the lack of significant progress in improving health status, a trend we first noticed in 2000. And, alarmingly, overall health in the United States continues to suffer in comparison to that of many other nations.


And where you'll find the breakdown:

http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/a ... tions.html

And here's a fantastic resource for health data:

http://phpartners.org/health_stats.html





Here's an interesting one just for fun:

http://www.apha.org/about/news/pressrel ... elease.htm

With quote:

For the first time, the report incorporates state-specific analysis of quality of medical care delivery versus costs as part of a comprehensive picture of overall health; data indicates inverse relationship between cost and quality


Ooooh, and that looks like fun:

http://www.massnurses.org/safe_care/Tue ... _v5/58.pdf.

And just to play Devil's Advocate:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15252516
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:00 am

Lathander wrote:I don't believe in lots and lots of citations unless I'm writing a 5 page or greater report. Even looking at pro canada style arguments, they say you do have greater waiting periods with better off canadians going across the border to the US to get the care they need since they can afford it.

Really its just common sense Sarvis. Even the Canadian Supreme Court said that access to a wait line is not the same as access to healthcare.

I'll humor you though, so here are some few links.

http://home.ca.inter.net/~grantsky/medicine.html


Err, I can't help but notice this one is stating the Canadian system is superior in may ways. At one point he even states our system is only fine for millionairs!

I'll check the others out tomorrow, I'm tired and the bronchitis is ruining my mood for argument... *sigh*
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Postby Lathander » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:18 am

In the author's opinion, that is correct. I simply disagree with the author's conclusion because he is putting more importance on some thing rather than others. He prefers a chevy vs a cadallac. I and many folks would rather have better healthcare ala the caddy rather than a beat up chevy quality.

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