Healthcare gripes in America (strand tugged from Justice)

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:41 pm

I don't have a whole bunch of studies, but I know that when my mom visited up here in Canada last, she was thrilled to be able to get tylenol 3 w/codine as an OTC.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:43 pm

She can get cocaine as an OTC in columbia.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:00 pm

Hey Tef.. wanna stop playing "Dog guarding the food bowl" and stop being hostile for the sake of being hostile?

IMO the government taking codine out of OTC meds is a huge pain... some of the best damn cough syrup in the world was the stuff with codine in it. I remember when I had the really bad colds, mom would give me a small dose of that stuff and it broke all the junk in my lungs up, and allowed me sleep when otherwise I couldn't.

There are plenty of meds which are CONTROLLED OTC. Biggest damn pain was when they started taking dextromethorphan off of the shelves and putting it behind the counter. I hate having to wait in line at the Walmart Pharmacy (yes the cold meds are cheapest there) for thirty minutes to pick up meds when I'm sick as a dog and don't want to be there to begin with.

People are going to find a way to get their high no matter what. I'm sure there's some teeny-bopper out there right now that has found if you mix OTC drug a with OTC drug b you get buzzed, regardless of the ingredient changes. Heck.. I get high off of antihistamines. Oh shoot, there goes my Nyquil. *sigh*

The thing I've noticed is the new stuff isn't as effective as the old, so I stay sick longer. *shrug* Nope, no studies here, just recent experience.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:23 pm

Lathander wrote:Well Sarvis, then you didn't read those studies of the WHO studay well. The US was #1 in responsiveness and in morbidity, I believe we were #2.

Thoughts?


Well, we've also got the most infant deaths. I guess if we're going to count the bad things in our favor, we might as well count all of them!

Now let's see. The Freeper link focuses mostly on cancer between us and the UK, which is actually one of our best features, besides lots of babies dying, that is, and which the UK is very worst at. The problem is, while it is one of our better areas, we're still somewhere in the middle of the road on it. Still behind Italy, Australia, Japan and Sweden!

You're trying to prove we have the BEST healthcare for paying twice as much (or more) remember? Not that we're middle of the road.



Nice to see block quotes are ok when they're on your side. Of course, the author does little except attempt to show that Paul Krugman hasn't done as much research in 5 years of article writing as I have in 2 weeks of debate. It also fails to back up a lot of it's claims, and blushes over the reasons for people being uninsured in favor of an implication that it's their choice. The last paragraph, though, really tells the whole story: Some Bill O'Reilly type who's more concerned with bashing "lefties" thantaking a studied look at the issue.

Besides which, I'm <i>still</i> wondering why you seem to think paying twice as much for healthcare is worth it, in our system. You claimed it's because we have the best care, right? Does bashing Paul over his claims show that?



I get the feeling working conditions for residents aren't that great over here either:

Top U.S. medical students choosing surgical subspecialties are beginning to prefer those that offer a curriculum not requiring a general surgical residency. 3 Concomitantly, even some first-class surgical residency programs remain unfilled. 4 Projections expect that by 2005 only 76.6% of resident training positions will be filled. 5 The interest of U.S. medical students in general surgery dropped from 12.1% of the student population in 198l to 6.1% in 2001.

In Griffen and Schwartz’s 1980 analysis of the reasons for specific career choices among medical specialties, the chance to achieve a controllable lifestyle, financial success, and limited responsibility were the determining selection criteria. 6 Within the top 15% of medical school graduates, radiologists, ophthalmologists, dermatologists, and psychiatrists were overrepresented.

Decreasing interest in surgery is now becoming manifest at both ends of a surgical career, at its very beginning and at its end. Indeed, in the United States, the number of applicants for medical school has diminished by 20% within the last 5 years, 7 and the retirement age of U.S. surgeons has dropped to only 57 years. The process of becoming a general surgeon and the practice of general surgery within the actual environment show signs of weakness or even debility. - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1422635




Well, there you go... you finally found something that says things like "the US has arguably the best healthcare system in the world." Good for you. Of course, reading the sections on quality of care and problems it sure didn't sound like it. Particularly worrying was that 1/3 of patients aren't receiving proper treatments, and there is common useage of outdated, ineffective treatments. Hell, it makes me wonder if I'm going into my fourth week of severe coughing because they gave me antibiotics for something that's viral... *sigh*

There's also the minor fact that more and more employers are dropping health insurance as a benefit, due to the rising administrative costs. Costs that DON'T seem to arise from the socialized systems, despite the general tendency for conservatives to blame government for uncontrolled administrative cost increases. Let's face it, in the current system everyone is trying to make a profit by hurting each other... and it's working to our detriment.


Anyway, I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking. It seems as if your position basically boils down to this:

It's a good thing that Birile, Lilira and I grew up without health insurance so that Paris Hilton could have slightly shorter waiting times. It's also a good thing you're paying twice as much health insurance to subsidize her care, while yours isn't as good as Canada's.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:53 pm

Lilira wrote:Hey Tef.. wanna stop playing "Dog guarding the food bowl" and stop being hostile for the sake of being hostile?

IMO the government taking codine out of OTC meds is a huge pain... some of the best damn cough syrup in the world was the stuff with codine in it. I remember when I had the really bad colds, mom would give me a small dose of that stuff and it broke all the junk in my lungs up, and allowed me sleep when otherwise I couldn't.

There are plenty of meds which are CONTROLLED OTC. Biggest damn pain was when they started taking dextromethorphan off of the shelves and putting it behind the counter. I hate having to wait in line at the Walmart Pharmacy (yes the cold meds are cheapest there) for thirty minutes to pick up meds when I'm sick as a dog and don't want to be there to begin with.

People are going to find a way to get their high no matter what. I'm sure there's some teeny-bopper out there right now that has found if you mix OTC drug a with OTC drug b you get buzzed, regardless of the ingredient changes. Heck.. I get high off of antihistamines. Oh shoot, there goes my Nyquil. *sigh*

The thing I've noticed is the new stuff isn't as effective as the old, so I stay sick longer. *shrug* Nope, no studies here, just recent experience.


Lilira, I hate to have to tell you this but that's bull. Responding to a legitimate comment is hardly 'dog guarding food bowl.' He had a point and so do I.

How we regulate our drugs does not affect the fact that we get our meds more consistantly, cheaply, and freely than anywhere else in the world.

In the United States we are blessed with a functional health care system that provides free care to most people if they do a little research, have the patience to fill out a few forms, and provide a few bits of information.

The idea that somehow, not getting codine without talking to a pharmacist makes drugs less accessible in this country is not a reflection on the quality of care or the availability of drugs.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:03 pm

Lilira wrote:The thing I've noticed is the new stuff isn't as effective as the old, so I stay sick longer. *shrug* Nope, no studies here, just recent experience.


It's called tolerance.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:14 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:How we regulate our drugs does not affect the fact that we get our meds more consistantly, cheaply, and freely than anywhere else in the world.


That must be why so many Americans started ordering their drugs from Canada, right?
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Postby Gurns » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:26 pm

I'm surprised that people haven't been discussing this aspect of the U.S. health care system.

Longer article, with consideration of some of the issues discussed in this thread:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... ngman.html

Shorter, summary article:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 993061.htm

Comparing the U.S. system to Canada or France or Britain always leads to issues of comparability. So it may be more relevant to look at different U.S. systems.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:21 pm

Here's something that occurred to me last night that I wanted to address. I noticed that those links I posted were for the most part and fairly blatantly written off by others, so I thought I'd go ahead and do the work for you on this. I haven't had the opportunity to do comparisons like this in a long time, so it was a lot of fun for me. The only thing I regret is that I started this yesterday, and because my computer is so schizoid I had multiple crashes, numerous instances of lost data, and what I'm posting is a much-diminished effort compared to the original. Actually... it's tiny compared to the original, which took several hours of work and frustrated me no end when it was lost.

Lathander postulated this:
Profit is what makes the American Healthcare system the highest quality in the world based on the level of service you can get. Folks excel to make more money and be successful. That is the fundamental problem with socialism and communism. In those systems, there is no point to being good much less great. There is no concrete benefit for the person that is the best which results in mediocrity.


That tickled something in my thoughts, and to respond I thought I'd do a little research on those who strive to be "great" in the medical arena. Below you will find the numbers of Nobel winners in those countries who most prolifically contribute to the domain of Medicine. The numbers reflect only those winners in Medicine and Physiology. At first I was pretty impressed by the number of Nobel awards for the US, but once I had those numbers extracted, I compared them to the number of doctors listed in those countries, to find out exactly which country was showing a higher ratio of "great" for population.

Then there was something Teflor mentioned:
Cite something that shows that it isn't. The American health care system has greater capacity, capability, and accessibility than any other health care system in the world.


And another which I thought deserved a second look because it seemed like a much too broad perspective:
Hospitals with More Than 250 Beds in The United States of America:
1129, Population 298 Million

Hospitals with More Than 250 Beds in All of Europe:
1123, Population 66six Million


So below you will also find population breakdowns in those same countries, with the ratio of patients to physicians, as well as hospital beds per 10K capita.

Now, the disclaimer is that we all know that not all statistics are 100% correct. I tried to stick with just numbers, from several different organizations. My original spreadsheet was far more intensive with multiple credits for base numbers, but I just wasn't up to recreating that, especially not when the idea behind the numbers still seemed sound even when comparing one to another.

I stand by my belief that the United States is excellent at mass production, but falls short in quality, and that for our medical costs we get less for what we spend compared to some other countries (my original documentation included costs per capita, as well, and there were quite a few other countries that outstripped us in that area, but somebody else can crunch that for now). We are not the best, and we do not have the bragging rights to state that. We are the most... not even the most available, as you can see by the ratio of doctors per capita, but we are the most overpaid.

Image


Now, sorry for not addressing your question, Lath, but my computer's giving me a lesson in frustration. I'll get to it soon.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:34 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:How we regulate our drugs does not affect the fact that we get our meds more consistantly, cheaply, and freely than anywhere else in the world.


That must be why so many Americans started ordering their drugs from Canada, right?


The few and the ignorant. That and those who just live closer to Canada than the rest of America. When I lived near Mexico, I used to go across to buy toiletries, paper products, poultry, and other groceries.

It happened to be cheaper in mexico than were I lived. This doesn't mean that it isn't a fact that groceries are cheaper in the US than in Mexico in general.
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Postby Lathander » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:35 am

Ash, I think you posted about the French system. I read it and it got me looking at other things about it.

Personally, I take Nobel prizes with a grain of salt. Politics plays a role in who wins these things in any catagory. Also, didn't Arafat win a Nobel Peace prize? Makes me a bit leary.

In some of the sites I read about France, it said they wanted to try to close down some hospitals with low usage rates. The trouble there is that french people consider having a half used hospital as a right and they protest if you try to close them.

Sarvis, infant mortality is a bad metric to use particularly for the US. We have deep cultural differences in our country predominately in the inner cities. If you could back the inner city numbers out of the infant mortality numbers, they would look alot better. Most countries are far more homogenous than we area. Our variety is good, but it has let to subcultures in areas like the old inner cities and in the cities on the southern border.

Ash, I appreciate you mentioning what I said about arguing about who is better and worse. Instaed, wouldn't the debate progress better if folks said how they would actually change it. Use specifics and how you would pay for it and what the consequences would be.

Syvlos, you bring up a great point about OTC drugs. Most folks in the US do not want perscription drugs to go OTC. The reason is insurance doesn't cover them so you pay more for the drug OTC than with your copay on a perscription drug.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:51 am

Lathander wrote:Sarvis, infant mortality is a bad metric to use particularly for the US.


Which is why I've shown so many other sources. I only brought it up because you seemed to think high morbidity was good too.

We have deep cultural differences in our country predominately in the inner cities.


Yeah, I know. One of the biggest ones is poverty and access to insurance. Really, that's kind of the point.

If you could back the inner city numbers out of the infant mortality numbers, they would look alot better. Most countries are far more homogenous than we area.


As far as healthcare coverage, anyway.
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Postby Lathander » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:27 am

Well, Sarvis, you do believe in the redistribution of wealth, which is why I said you were a socialist earlier.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:46 am

It's always great when the best arguments a conservative can come up with are ad hominems.
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Postby Gurns » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:56 am

Lathander wrote:We have deep cultural differences in our country predominately in the inner cities. If you could back the inner city numbers out of the infant mortality numbers, they would look alot better. Most countries are far more homogenous than we area. Our variety is good, but it has let to subcultures in areas like the old inner cities and in the cities on the southern border.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What does anybody's subculture have to do with whether they have health care?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:14 am

Sarvis wrote:It's always great when the best arguments a conservative can come up with are ad hominems.


Yeah, I'm so tired of it just being the territory of the liberals.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:44 am

Morbidity is different from mortality :) I had to look it up cuz I R SMRT and pay 460/year on full medical for my whole family:)

(my little interjection here, LOL)

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Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:53 pm

Ambar wrote:Morbidity is different from mortality :) I had to look it up cuz I R SMRT and pay 460/year on full medical for my whole family:)

(my little interjection here, LOL)

Sign up now .. all ya gotta do is withstand 20 years active duty military (thats my plug for the military for the day)


Yes, we are the "best" at both. (Don't worry, I had to look it up too...)
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