Thievery

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

So........

I should get my stuff back or...
27
71%
I should give up this uselessness
11
29%
 
Total votes: 38
Diel
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Thievery

Postby Diel » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:02 pm

So I know I've lost lots of stuff in the past, and probably deserved it a couple of those times. This time was a bit different. I had no control over the situation this time. Someone finds my corpse rot pile, takes it, doesn't report it to anyone. The staff "urges him to return it" (instead of just making him give it back), still no response. Multiple posts on every board possible -- still no response.

So I don't know about you people, but I've been here since about 1994 and have worked for everything I earned and am not about to just have it taken by someone who doesn't deserve it. Some of the gear that I lost didn't even belong to me, it belongs to Jalahon (who also earned everything just the same). Anyway, long story short, I don't see why there isn't a rule about this. No names mentioned, but a good friend of mine got caged for standing up for me on this one (dunno how the exact conversation went, but I appreciate the help).

Am I just being dumb about this or does this sound like a legit argument?
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:22 pm

You lose enough equipment that you should take out a big fat insurance policy for accidental loss.

It'd be nice to see players protected from accidental loss. The alternative is to encourage underhanded behavior, and to diminish the pbase every time someone has an unfortunate event. I appreciate the staff mmailing the thief in an attempt to make the situation right...unfortunately not everyone is capable of making good moral judgments, so the issue needs to be forced.
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Postby Vigis » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:15 pm

Way back in Toril 1 or Soj1 (I can't remember which) my account got hacked from the college computer lab. Whoever it was quit me out and all my stuff dropped to the ground. A couple of people found my pile, split everything between them and went on their merry little way :(

I set up a shout on a tick timer and let it run for about 24 hours, the imms got kind of fed up with it, but I found out who had my stuff and after much cajoling got most of it back.

One of the guys gave everything that he had back to me, I thanked him and gave him the best piece of gear that he had picked up. The other one said something to the effect of "I'll give it back, but I think I deserve a reward." and didn't give me all of my stuff that he had (by this time I had a detailed list of what each of them had kept). Needless to say, that guy didn't get any kind of reward.

With as small as our community has gotten, it is sad to see that people will keep, sell, or trade equipment that they know belongs to somebody else.

Post a list of what you lost Diel, I'm sure I have something in my bag that can help you out.
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Postby Diel » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:26 pm

I'm not here for handouts or anything of the sort. I would just like a straight answer as to why this is the way it is, and if there is a good reason for it, please tell me, if not just give me my stuff back or at least tell me who it was so I can try to resolve matters myself. If it continues to be this way, I don't really want to stick around because with the way things have been for me, it'll probably happen again hehe :D

LF: eq insurance
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:45 pm

I find it totally unfair to give that question. Those of us that would never loot a pcorpse like that can't expect others to be like us.

People differ, suck it up and work for some new eq. And if you ever find out who it is publish it on the BBS.
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Postby Diel » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:49 pm

I agree that not everyone is honest, but do we really want to game with people like that? I sure as shit don't. I don't even play here for personal gain here anymore. It's a place to hang out, kill time at work, and help those who are still hard at it.
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:59 pm

Telling someone to 'work for new eq' is a pretty cold response to this situation. There aren't many people who would suffer a full equipment loss, be shunned by the staff, and accept that they should 'work for new eq'. They'll quit...this place is about long term accumulation. You can't expect someone to stick around when they lose everything for such a lame, and correctable, reason.

I'm not saying the finder shouldn't be rewarded in some way for returning the items...but if they blatently refuse to return stuff, it sure speaks loud about their lack of character irl. Kinda feel bad for them if you think about it. How bad must life be when you have to resort to stealing in a game to feel good about yourself :P
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:03 pm

The person who did it could be 13 years or something, who knows.
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:16 pm

If the person is 13, it's even more reason to not allow or encourage them to be dishonest. Hiding them behind a veil of anonymity, and assuring them of no consequences isn't exactly a good way to encourage honest behavior:)

Finding/taking the equipment wasn't illegal.

Keeping it after you've been made aware of whose it is, should be.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:31 pm

Why don't you find out what Larim did to earn special treatment where the player was forced to give his equipment back?
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Postby Diel » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:34 pm

Disoputlip wrote:suck it up and work for some new eq.


It's pretty easy to just tell someone to suck it up when it wasn't you that it happened to. I know you've been working on your fabulous gear for quite some time now. Try putting yourself in the same situation and see if you still have the same outlook.
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
Maedor
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:43 pm

Gormal wrote:Why don't you find out what Larim did to earn special treatment where the player was forced to give his equipment back?


The person in question was allowed to keep a rather hefty 'finders fee':P

Regardless, Diel has a much stronger case to have his equipment returned than Alurissi did. At least Alurissi intentionally quit/deleted/whatever...which led to his loss.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:47 pm

1) The Imms need to be able to remain neutral. I'm not sure who in the staff has been contacted, but the forcing thing sounds like something Forgers would have to handle if they choose to do so. The problem is, the imms are there to enforce the rules, not make them up as they go along. Perhaps it is time for a rule to be created with regards to incidents such as these, but for now it doesn't exist, and has to be treated accordingly.

2) If you can provide a list of the gear, people can watch auction/trades to see if any of the gear comes up. Its a shame the person who found the equipment is unwilling to be truthful and it really hurts in what has become a pretty small, close-knit community that someone like that is running around. Its much worse when the gear isn't even yours.

Here's a question... was it someone who doesn't log on often, and perhaps hasn't gotten the message? I guess I'm just one of those people who wants to think the best of people, even under trying circumstances. Basically if the player wants to be a schmuck they're gonna be a schmuck. The only thing we can do as players is refuse to associate with someone like that if it becomes known who is responsible.
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Postby Diel » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:57 pm

I was aware that the person was told in game (correct me if I'm wrong) and they failed to mmail me or even post on the main board or BBS about it. I'm not trying to trash the imms or anything, but I wanna see the rule where it says stealing it legal :D

If I were to take a load of sick eq, I probably wouldn't show up for a while either. Isn't that the way it works in crime? Stop me if I'm getting out of hand, but I'm kinda easily excitable right now hehe
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



Klandan group-says 'No, I just won't group with him. Just making that clear up front.



Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



Don't blame me because you aren't an interesting person and have a problem finding anything to talk about.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:07 pm

Maedor wrote:
Gormal wrote:Why don't you find out what Larim did to earn special treatment where the player was forced to give his equipment back?


The person in question was allowed to keep a rather hefty 'finders fee':P

Regardless, Diel has a much stronger case to have his equipment returned than Alurissi did. At least Alurissi intentionally quit/deleted/whatever...which led to his loss.


Did i say anything about the person? I was referencing the apparent double-standard. Learn to read Greg.
Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:29 pm

Let me try to reverse my argument:

**sarcasm on**
You should definitly be very angry and upset. I think you need to write a lot of threads on the BBS because that is definitly gonna change the gods no-intervention policy.

If a lot of players vote on this poll that you should get your eq back then I see no way around that gods have to do it (or load you some new eq).
**sarcasm off**

To me the whole thing is a loose-loose situation, hence my 1st reply.
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Postby Drahken » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:30 pm

This brings an interesting question to mind...

The staff maintains the stance that they will tell a player who the eq previously belonged to but not force them to return it. What rights do the players involved have beyond this without worrying or expecting any interference from the gods? I'd be curious to here an admin's response on this. Would Diel be subject to censorship or post removal if he posted who he knew, or suspected, took his eq? Would him attempting to discredit this person over ooc or elsewhere be tolerated? The same goes for the taker...Could the person who took his eq reasonably expect not to be bashed or subject to hearsay on the bbs, over ooc or elsewhere? Would they be protected from this?

I suspect that the policy of not telling Diel who has his eq is in place because it could and probably would generate a lot of public negativity here on this bbs and in game if the taker refuses to return the eq. So in this situation, the person who takes the eq is provided with anonymity while Diel is not.

It seems like this is a situation in which the administration sphere needs to rethink its 'policy' on the matter and maybe develop something that better reflects the current state of the mud. I'm not saying admins should step in and force anyone to do anything, but the age old response of "We've informed them that it is your eq." probably needs to be reevaluated, like other policies have been.

The current help file for theft isn't very helpful on the matter.

THEFT

Theft is a serious accusation against someone. If you accuse someone of
thievery you must have:

1) Their name. It is hard to help if you do now know who ripped you off.

2) Taken reasonable precautions against getting ripped off. If you gave
someone something just "to try on" that is not grounds for the Staff to
interfere. Reasonable precautions DO NOT include:

*Giving them the item to try on or id.
*Letting them go get something off of storage, etc.
*Lending them the item for a little while.

Reasonable precautions DO include:

*Using a third person as a "go between" for the trade.
*Not trading with an anonymous/naked person.


Unfortunately thievery isn't always isolated to trading. In this case
SPEED is necessary. If someone grabs your fumbled weapon, loots your
corpse and won't respond: petition quickly with who it was and what
they did so the appropriate actions can be taken.


No where does it state what actions CAN be taken or what WOULD constitute theft in this situation, yet the bottom does make it clear that if someone does loot your corpse you should contact the staff ASAP.

8. Do not pick up fumbled weapons or any equipment laying on the ground
unless you are SURE that is doesn't belong to anyone or that it is
abandoned. If a player intentionally leaves something lying in a room, then
the player leaving it has no claim to it.


SPECIAL NOTE: anyone found hiding invis or hidden in a room and stealing
fumbled weapons will be punished.


In Rule #8 is explicitly states not to 'pick up fumbled weapons or ANY equipment laying on the ground unless you are SURE that it doesn't belong to anyone or that it is abandoned.' I'd say that a fully eq'd corpse rot would be a pretty obvious situation in which the equipment is someone else's. Doesn't that constitute a violation of the rules? You could argue that by letting the corpse rot, it has become abandoned but under the help file for theft is explicitly states rotted corpses which leaves this one open for dispute. It seems to me that an Admin, under these rules, would have to decide if its reasonable to assume that the player who took the eq knew it was someone else's. And if that is the case, that player - under these rules, should be subject to punishment as outlined above.

It seems to me that there is a lot of gray area here and some dated help files, and that this is something that may need some changes to that fun word called 'policy'. I'm not vouching for or supporting either side of the argument - just stating that under the current help files and rules their is a lot of gray.
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:33 pm

Gormal wrote:
Maedor wrote:
Gormal wrote:Why don't you find out what Larim did to earn special treatment where the player was forced to give his equipment back?



Did i say anything about the person? I was referencing the apparent double-standard. Learn to read Greg.


Dear Jacob, you referred to a player.

Don't be a jackass:(

Love,
Greg
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Postby Maedor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:41 pm

After reading Drahken's post with the examination of the help theft file, who will let me "ID" some tia items?

If someone wants to ID my xyz_item_of_uber_sexiness...I should be able to allow that, without worrying that they're going to run off with it. It just takes one bad apple in a tight community to cause quite a stir if rules aren't being interpreted in a way so as to protect the community, and the spirit of the game.


I think a reevaluation of some of these long standing rules would be great.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:07 pm

So you're telling us that in 13 years of mudding you still haven't learned to not let your corpse rot/curse your elite weapon?

That's really an amazing achievement, Diel.
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Postby Birile » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:26 pm

Without saying anything about Diel's record where eq loss is involved, or comment on the probability that he really couldn't find a computer for, what, 18 hours after he died??? in order to deal with his dead body and eq...*cough*

I think it's quite disgusting that someone would find all of that eq and think it's cool to take it. Of course, there's the chance this person's new, or comes from someplace like Duris or something, but if the person's new you'd think they'd want to give the eq back quickly once they were informed.

And as for some of the rules that were quoted, it seems pretty clear that the staff have reasonable cause to say "Give the eq back or else" in this situation--and come on, re-write the rules regarding this type of behavior already. I mean, it IS okay to use common sense when something like this happens. *shrug*

Edit: I didn't vote because there wasn't an option for: "Maybe Diel should've done more after he died to get his eq back if it really meant that much to him but the perp really needs to be strung by his 'nads for what he's done." :roll:
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Postby Vigis » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:44 pm

I would like to offer my services as a go between if the person who has the gear wants to give it back but, understandably by this point, is afraid of coming forward and risk being ostracized.

Should the person feel this way, I guarantee that I will NEVER release his or her name to anybody (staff included). And would take precautions to make sure said person could not be clair'd etc during the transfer.

If said person reads this thread and agrees to the terms, he or she can mmail me, pm me, or send me a tell in-game.

Thank you,
Vigis
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Postby razax » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:53 pm

Offer a reward and see what happens. I've found stuff in the past and haven't got thanks let alone anything else when I gave it back to the person. And given the level of your gear I think it's pretty lame that the stuff is not handed back or at least reported as found. If it happened to me, I'd be doing the same thing as your are and I'd be seriously tempted to give up the game if nothing positive came out of it.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:02 am

Llaaldara wrote:So you're telling us that in 13 years of mudding you still haven't learned to not let your corpse rot/curse your elite weapon?

That's really an amazing achievement, Diel.


So, after however many of years of mudding you still comment without knowing the full story?

That's really an amazing achievement, Llal.

He didn't have a choice to let it rot. He lost link, and had connection issues due to his internet provider for longer than the time the corpse had on it. There is not "learning to not let your corpse rot" in this entire story.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:43 am

Since nobody else is doing it, I am offering 10,000 platinum, no questions asked, for the full return of Diel's equipment within 1 week. Come through an intermediary such as Vigis, or come directly to me - whatever you like.

There seems to be some confusion over what is going on here. Here are the facts as reported by Diel:

1. Diel was in no way responsible for losing his eq. He lost link and couldn't reconnect due to connection/RL issues for 30 hrs.

2. Diel believed, as I believed and many others believed, that the rules DO NOT allow someone to keep someone else's eq without their permission. Hence his posts and hence his confusion.

In the past if someone wanted to, say, ID your eq in preparation for offering you a trade for it, and then ran off without your eq, they would be caged and forced to hand your equipment back, or possibly notimed (permabanned) if they did not cooperate.

Now, my commentary: I am all for a liberal and understanding policy with regard to imm intervention, especially where things cannot be proven. Diel alleges that this is not the case, and that everything can be proven. If that is the case, then his frustration is quite understandable. In either case, I think the one thing we can all agree on is the need for very clear rules on what should happen in the case of corpse rots.

For the record, I don't believe that this is necessarily an act of outright and deliberate piracy - it is possible that someone grabbed the gear but just hasn't logged on since to see the staff mmail. I once put my CR kit on a squid and died outside of DK. Lo and behold, there were no evils on capable of getting me back to DK (and the squid was too low-level to make the trip,) but there was a drow necro who assured me that he would put over 24 hours of pres on the corpse. I returned the next morning to find that a boot had occurred and all my stuff was gone. What happened? The necro thought that the hours displayed in the preserve spell message were equal to real-life hours. The corpse rotted, and a subsequent crash or boot wiped out the eq.

In any case, this incident, if left unresolved, will be a serious mark against the reputation of Toril's player base, and it would be best if we as a community find a way to move forward.
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Postby Pril » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:46 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So, after however many of years of mudding you still comment without knowing the full story?

That's really an amazing achievement, Llal.

He didn't have a choice to let it rot. He lost link, and had connection issues due to his internet provider for longer than the time the corpse had on it. There is not "learning to not let your corpse rot" in this entire story.


Arilin, CLEARLY the solution in this case it when this happens to call a friend give them your password have them log in and walk to the inn and rent you out.... oh wait that's character sharing.

Seriously I'm ticked at this situation. Can we get a god response as to what someone should do in the event that their power goes out. Do we deal with getting deleted for character sharing and losing all our eq, or should we risk some jackass stealing our eq and losing it that way, or is there a better solution that the gods can come up with?
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Postby Tasan » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:16 am

"1. Diel was in no way responsible for losing his eq. He lost link and couldn't reconnect due to connection/RL issues for 30 hrs."


ROFL... god I love suckers. I wish I had been the person there to scoop it all up. The rules of the game have always been finder's keepers when eq was on the ground after a corpse rot. It's one of the reasons there's a timer in the first place(that and the overabundance of items in game problem). If you honestly believe someone who has literally used this SAME LINE before as an excuse, I feel sorry for you.

13 years of experience here and you couldn't notify someone to pres your corpse or find someone else w/ a different ISP... give me a break. There are LIBRARIES that offer internet access... Show me your house in Antarctica and then I might feel the slightest bit sorry for you.

Leave the imms out of the situation. There are plenty of things in this community that shouldn't be their situation to deal with.

Just change your title to -EQ Sink- and get it over with.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:35 am

This community gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling.

"Hey... check and see if he has any cash on him."

But really, the obsession with equipment means that we're too dependant on equipment for ... everything really. I blame game design, but I suppose the imms have already decided that the previous system needed to be overhauled, so I guess we're just waiting now.
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Postby Diel » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:02 am

The town I live in is so small you can drive across the whole thing in about 5 minutes. The "college" is the only place that isn't working on the same ISP as everyone else here. I am not a student, so they will not let me in the computer lab. There is one dial-up provider for all the farmers and random rednecks who live 10-20 miles out in the woods. Maybe where you live it's not a problem to find another computer, but here it's not so easy. If one person in town doesn't have internet access, most likely nobody else you know here does either. I don't communicate with anyone from the MUD outside of the game, so I didn't have anyone's number (although Zitahna did give me her number yesterday so that I would have something on hand).

Look, this place has become boring as fuck for the daytime crew. Nobody does anything. The majority of my close friends are gone. I hang with the few people that are around and help newcomers and there's really nothing I do for personal gain except for xp. The only reason I am still here is because it's the only thing I can do to keep myself sane working at my incredibly monotonous job. I'm sure many of you can relate.

But whatever, I guess I'm just making excuses.
Thanks.
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Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



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Postby Tasan » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:04 am

Diel wrote: There is one dial-up provider for all the farmers and random rednecks who live 10-20 miles out in the woods. Maybe where you live it's not a problem to find another computer, but here it's not so easy.


Shrug, then accept the situation you live in and deal. I highly doubt you couldn't find access within 30-45 minutes. If you chose to do little about retrieving your items, it is no better than "abandoning" it. I also have never heard of a single ISP suffering more than 18 hours of downtime unless it was due to power/natural disaster issues.

Either way, crying foul when you've proven before that you have little regard for your own or other people's things is just silly.
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ssar
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Postby ssar » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:21 am

Wow, 1st time I have heard about this.

Sad situation, some prick probably snagging the goodies on purpose and hiding.

Let's hope it is somehow something innocent, and u get the bulk of yer stuff back ok Diel.

Btw, I totally sympathise with u being unable to access the net to try and logon and CR, get pres etc. - this happens.

If it is some prick hoarding/hiding on purpose, ffs just give the bulk of the stuff back thru vigis/mori - geez the game is dying as is, many of the usual players these days are part of a well-known crew, this sort of crap is not on.
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Postby Pril » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:17 pm

Tasan wrote:
Diel wrote: There is one dial-up provider for all the farmers and random rednecks who live 10-20 miles out in the woods. Maybe where you live it's not a problem to find another computer, but here it's not so easy.


Shrug, then accept the situation you live in and deal. I highly doubt you couldn't find access within 30-45 minutes. If you chose to do little about retrieving your items, it is no better than "abandoning" it. I also have never heard of a single ISP suffering more than 18 hours of downtime unless it was due to power/natural disaster issues.

Either way, crying foul when you've proven before that you have little regard for your own or other people's things is just silly.


Doug the only problem with your logic is he didn't know he was dead. And driving 2 hrs just to check if you might be dead is silly at best.
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Postby Latreg » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:18 pm

I think a reason for lack of intervention could be that had the mud crashed or rebooted the gear would have been lost. Now granted you had no chance to reclaim the gear or have someone else get it for you. It's a shame that all the hard work you put in getting the stuff is just glossed over as "oh well, too bad for you" I really hope you get your stuff back, die again so I can find your stuff! j/k :) best of luck
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Postby amolol » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:41 pm

i honestly had no idea that some of you could be such insensitive pricks....
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce

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Postby Maedor » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:27 pm

Latreg wrote:I think a reason for lack of intervention could be that had the mud crashed or rebooted the gear would have been lost. Now granted you had no chance to reclaim the gear or have someone else get it for you. It's a shame that all the hard work you put in getting the stuff is just glossed over as "oh well, too bad for you" I really hope you get your stuff back, die again so I can find your stuff! j/k :) best of luck


He came back before it rebooted, and retrieved one item off a mob.

I'm still trying to figure out who voted against diel:P I just don't think anyone here would accept 'too bad, so sad' if they were in Diel's shoes.

1) yog
2) lladaarraraaal
3) Tasan
4) the prick who stole the eq

I bet the 5th vote will be from the person the prick trades Jalahon's magma band to :P
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:27 pm

I didn't vote. I find it unfair that he asks that question. See my first post.


I will also include a thread just to make a statement:
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=18660
not that the eq I found is Diel level, but still
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:33 pm

This argument is regarding rule 8, so some would think, on help rules.

The trouble is when a corpse rots in this mud, the equipment is free and clear. The problem is what caused the corpse to be neglected. When one cannot return to the game, I feel at least, that they should be restored. It's the same thing as a weaker player abusing a bug. They acquire eq out of luck rather than skill. Imagine if you had a 100 dollar bill and the wind blew it around the corner. You get around the corner and someone's holding A 100 bill, claiming they just happened to pull it out of their pocket. Yet, they didn't see yours. Hell, Diel didn't even get to know what was up..

Same could be said in a zoning situation where the mud crashed. But meanwhile the group died and nobody knew. So it takes 20 hours to get back on the mud and guess what? All corpses rotted and it crashed again at 19 hours so the eq's gone. That fair? Hell no. This guy needs his stuff back. It's not like it was at cleric's path or something where ppl check for pres'g.

I'd be enraged if I lost my eq or borrowed eq in this situation. Player loyalty is a must. If the player is afraid to return it as a result of retaliation, I'd like them to think, I hope, that most everybody would PRAISE their honesty.

I'm 110% for Diel getting his eq. I don't know him other than I think he's an anti-paladin :P But have a heart!

This also runs into rangers losing arrows on a crash :P *hint* Reimb! *whistle*
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Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:36 pm

I've died before and made phone calls to have someone pres my corpse... hell even if there isn't eq I'll make some calls and get someone to hook me up. (thanks greg/glor)

I think the biggest tragedy here is that it wasn't his eq that was lost. That and the afore-mentioned double-standard of God's picking and choosing when to follow the rules but that's nothing new.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:39 pm

moritheil wrote:Since nobody else is doing it, I am offering 10,000 platinum, no questions asked, for the full return of Diel's equipment within 1 week. Come through an intermediary such as Vigis, or come directly to me - whatever you like.


Upon Moritheil's payment, I too will offer an additional 5,000 platinum.

I would also offer it to Diel, if he will recant his complaint and cease seeking his lost equipment.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:55 pm

Diel wrote:Am I just being dumb about this or does this sound like a legit argument?

I'm sorry you lost the gear, Diel, and it's too bad that it could be returned but hasn't been. :(

But every mud I've ever played on, and this mud as long as it's been around... Gear on the ground, with no player nearby, is yours. It's abandoned equipment. Dropped intentionally or accidentally, corpse rot or quit out, it doesn't matter.

Would it be nice if whoever picked it up had returned it? Sure. And people generally do on this mud, which is one reason I like it here. But it's not in the rules.

Diel wrote:I wanna see the rule where it says stealing it legal

8. Do not pick up fumbled weapons or any equipment laying on the ground
unless you are SURE that is doesn't belong to anyone or that it is
abandoned. If a player intentionally leaves something lying in a room, then
the player leaving it has no claim to it.

The last sentence. After corpse rot, equipment is on the ground. Everyone knows that. So is that 'intentionally leaving something lying in a room'? Sure is. You have 'no claim to it.' No legal claim, a moral claim is a different issue.

Someone said you lost link and didn't know you were dead? The thing is, everyone knows that if you lose link, you can die, no matter where you are. Folks have died in the inn, there's always that chance.

So if you don't do everything possible you can to check, then you're making a bet. On one side, the risk of some aggro coming along, killing you, and your corpse rotting, while on the other side, the time and effort it takes to make sure you don't lose your corpse. Mostly that's a safe bet (I wouldn't have driven hours to check it, either) and it's too bad you lost the bet, but it was your decision.

Even if RL interferes, that's still part of the bet. Every time we log on, we are betting that RL won't prevent us from doing what we have to. Sometimes we lose. Too bad, but that's the game.

Drakhen wrote:but under the help file for theft is explicitly states rotted corpses

It says 'loots your corpse'. But a pile of gear from a rotted pcorpse is not a pcorpse, it's a pile of gear. I believe that rule dates from back when you could loot pcorpses without consent. And the rule didn't stop people from doing it, so that's why required consent for loot got put in. I assume that either the help file is out of date, or the statement is there in case someone figures out how to twink-loot a pcorpse.

Maedor wrote:I'm still trying to figure out who voted against diel:P I just don't think anyone here would accept 'too bad, so sad' if they were in Diel's shoes.

Me. Sure I would. Well, "lots of cursing, too bad, so sad." I've lost everything because of a bad decision I made. The gear wasn't as nice as what Diel had, but it was every decent thing I owned, and gear was scarce in those days. Too bad. And I've lost most of my stuff because my link dropped and I couldn't get back before 2 hour corpse rot/mud crash. Too bad.

(Lots and lots of times I didn't lose everything, because other players helped me out. Thanks!)

That's the game. We choose to play it, knowing what can happen to the Internet. We choose to play it, knowing it might crash. We make choices, in game and out. And our choices have consequences, good or bad. I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Postby Drahken » Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:53 am

Gurns wrote:
8. Do not pick up fumbled weapons or any equipment laying on the ground
unless you are SURE that is doesn't belong to anyone or that it is
abandoned. If a player intentionally leaves something lying in a room, then
the player leaving it has no claim to it.




I fully agree that it can be argued that a rotted corpse is 'abandoned', but in this case (supposdly) the corpse rotting was not intentional. However nowhere in this rule does it specifically clarify the issue of a corpse rot versus someone dropping eq on the ground - be it from a forgetful ress or otherwise.

I only quoted this rule because I feel it's unclear and doesn't cover this particular issue, not because I think the admins should change their policy or force someone to give Diel's eq back. When a player is caged or punished, 'help rules' is what is cited as the official source for that information. If anything should ALWAYS be upto date, it should be 'help rules'. My suggestion is to add some clarification to 'help rules' on how a situation like this will be handled... What a god will or will not do in the case of another player taking your eq, be it from a corpse rot or any other situation. I understand that the current scenario is 'the way it has always been.', but if this is going to be an official rule, it needs to stated as such under 'help rules'.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:35 am

It's hardly a discussion of rules. The rules are clear. If your corpse rots, your stuff is free game.

So pay attention to who posts in this thread. If they're all about the rules, when their corpse rots, don't give a single thing back.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:44 am

WARNING: This thread contains the following material, and may be unsuitable for newer members of the Toril family...

Code: Select all

( ) Artifacts
(x) Politics
(x) God Favoritism
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:37 am

lol jake, priceless :P
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Postby moritheil » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:24 am

Tasan wrote:"1. Diel was in no way responsible for losing his eq. He lost link and couldn't reconnect due to connection/RL issues for 30 hrs."

ROFL... god I love suckers. I wish I had been the person there to scoop it all up. The rules of the game have always been finder's keepers when eq was on the ground after a corpse rot. It's one of the reasons there's a timer in the first place(that and the overabundance of items in game problem). If you honestly believe someone who has literally used this SAME LINE before as an excuse, I feel sorry for you.


It's not a matter of trust or belief at all. Toril should be fun. The minute it incurs an obligation in real-life terms that interferes with RL and must be placed above RL concerns - any RL concerns - it stops being fun. Treating people like criminals is also not going to make things fun for them. As far as I'm concerned no one should ever have to prove that RL reasons interfered with their play, let alone meet some sort of twisted criteria regarding whether their reasons are good enough. It should be enough that the reasons were sufficient in their best judgement at the time.

I was in a highly aggro and difficult to reach area the other day and someone had to lose link suddenly because his boss walked in. Did I or anyone else in the group have a problem with that? Hell no. People have obligations in RL that far outweigh what happens here. If the game becomes so demanding that a maintaining a normal life is impossible, then the game will just die out. No matter how good the gameplay is, we all still have fleshy bodies, and need to pay food, rent, power, and water bills.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 am

If you're mudding on work time and you have to drop link because your boss is around, you have separate issues entirely.

I'm sorry, but the age old lesson from "the little boy who cried wolf" applies here. I highly doubt all of you would consider a bum living on welfare who keeps "losing" his welfare money just a poor guy who needs to be given more money.

When I lost a corpse due to linkdead/tracking death, I didn't cry to the imms for a reimb. I accepted my mistake(and the way the game worked) and moved on. Some people were nice enough to give me some stuff to start the new journey, and I probably have some of those items still. Lesson learned the first time, not the 4th+ time.

When do we take player accountability into play? I'm not defending the person who took the stuff, I'm defending the letter of the law. Laws that are unjust or unfair are still laws(assuming you can prosecute!).

Oh and Greg... I don't vote in polls.
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Postby alendar » Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:32 pm

i will throw in my 15 pieces of meatloaf if his eq is given back.
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Postby sok » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:44 pm

ebay has disallow the sell of vitual item.

i feel for you. if you need some eq, i can raid gormal's warrior.

i can totally understand not being able to get back on. luckily i had some friend's tn#. if anyone loses link in the future, you can call me. 714-496-769*. i'm in orange county, ca.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:12 pm

sok has disallow the use of porper english
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Postby Tasan » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:22 pm

Gormal wrote:sok has disallow the use of porper english


Apparently he's not the only one.
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