Thievery

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

So........

I should get my stuff back or...
27
71%
I should give up this uselessness
11
29%
 
Total votes: 38
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Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:48 pm

Grammar is disallow you want me to break rules of sok?
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Postby Sarell » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:40 am

Amolol wrote:i honestly had no idea that some of you could be such insensitive pricks....


blatant lie...

Rule 8 wrote:8. Do not pick up fumbled weapons or any equipment laying on the ground unless you are SURE that is doesn't belong to anyone or that it is abandoned. If a player intentionally leaves something lying in a room, then the player leaving it has no claim to it.


I think in light of this larim should give his gear back to its new rightful owner.

Anyhow, that sucks for Diel, but in light of his history perhaps he could just think of his gear as still his but in much safer hands to cheer himself up? :)

also anyone can feel to ring me if their corpse is going to rot, just text message me on 555555555 and let me know if you have any tia items plz, TOUCH!
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Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:02 pm

Currently voting stands at 69% to 30%. Obviously, that doesn't add up to 100%.

We managed to lose something there as well :(
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Postby Pril » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:34 pm

moritheil wrote:Currently voting stands at 69% to 30%. Obviously, that doesn't add up to 100%.

We managed to lose something there as well :(


It was stolen.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:49 am

Wow. This is the first I've heard of this. I can't believe nothing was done to get your stuff back Diel. I also fear the publicity this incident has generated here will encourage more of this behaivor. Especially since the imms did nothing about it, as they have helped many people in such situations many times in the past. You must have pissed them off somehow I guess.

Honestly, stuff like this makes me wonder why I have contributed to this place, and why I still play here. I guess I keep hoping they will get it right one of these days as far as the rules interacting with the players. The outcome of this situation is not a sign of progress in that area at all, and I am disgusted by it in it's entirety.
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Postby Birile » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:06 pm

Sarell wrote:Anyhow, that sucks for Diel, but in light of his history perhaps he could just think of his gear as still his but in much safer hands to cheer himself up? :)


The voice of reason. But was all of the gear he lost really his, or was it borrowed (again)?
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Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:07 pm

Jaznolg wrote:The outcome of this situation is not a sign of progress in that area at all, and I am disgusted by it in it's entirety.


I am disgusted as well by Diel's apparent inability to keep track of his and other people's equipment.
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Postby Diel » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:34 pm

In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. Trolls can also be existing members of such a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, more often than not based on what they thought was said rather than what was actually said by the other person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The latter are primarily, though not always juveniles from other countries who don't have enough understanding of the language to realize that there is nothing to argue about, the points are truly irrelevant to the conversation, or they just don't care and are simply trying to cause the other poster grief with their frivolous and irrelevant arguments.

Etymology

The contemporary use of the term first appeared on Usenet groups in the late 1980s. It is widely thought to be a contraction of the phrase trolling for suckers, itself derived from the sport fishing technique of trolling. The latter can be compared with trawling. Another plausible derivation is that it may be a shortening of "patrolling", with the common meaning of "searching," especially, "searching for those who do not wish to be found."

The word likely gained currency because of its apt second meaning, drawn from the trolls portrayed in Scandinavian folklore and children's tales; they are often ugly, many headed, obnoxious creatures bent on mischief and wickedness. The image of the troll under the bridge in the "Three Billy Goats Gruff" emphasizes the troll's negative reaction to outsiders intruding on its physical environment, particularly those who intend to graze in its domain without permission. The word occurs also in Thomas Awdeley’s Virginity of Vagabonds (1561) in the form: "Troll and Troll by is he that setteth naught by no man, nor no man by him. This is he that would bear rule in a place and hath no authority nor thanks, and at last is thrust out of the door like a knave." It seems a singularly apt description, though no provenance has ever been demonstrated to connect it with the modern usage. The origin of the phrase has been discussed in oral arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court (eBay v. MercExchange, 29 March 2006):

JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, is -- is the troll the scary thing under the bridge, or is it a fishing technique?...
MR. PHILLIPS [attorney for eBay]: For my clients, it's been the scary thing under the bridge....
JUSTICE KENNEDY: I mean, is that what the troll is?
MR. PHILLIPS: Yes, I believe that's... what it is, although...maybe we should think of it more as Orcs, now that we have a new generation.

Pre-history

Prior to DejaNews's archiving of Usenet, accounts of trolling were sketchy, there being little evidence to sort through. After that time, however, the huge archives were available for researchers. Perhaps the earliest, although poorly documented, case is the 1982-83 saga of Alex and Joan from the CompuServe forums. Van Gelder, a reporter for Ms. magazine, documented the incident in 1996 in an article for her publication. Alex (in real life a very shy 50-year-old psychiatrist from New York) pretended to be a highly bombastic, anti-religious, post-car-accident, wheelchair-bound, mute woman named "Joan", "in order to better relate to his female patients". This went on for two years, and "Joan" had become a hugely detailed character, with an array of emotional relationships. These only began to fall apart after "Joan" coaxed an online friend of hers into an affair with Alex.

"Even those who barely knew Joan felt implicated — and somehow betrayed — by Alex's deception. Many of us on-line like to believe that we're a utopian community of the future, and Alex's experiment proved to us all that technology is no shield against deceit. We lost our innocence, if not our faith." —Van Gelder

[edit] Trolling in the 1990s

One early reference to troll found in the Google Usenet archive was by user "Mark Miller", directed toward the user "Tad", on February 8, 1990.[1] However, it is unclear if this instance represents a usage of "troll" as it is known today, or if it was simply a chance choice of epithet:

You are so far beyond being able to understand anything anyone here says that this is just converging on uselessness. The really sad part is that you really believe that you're winning. You are a shocking waste of natural resources — kindly re-integrate yourself into the food-chain. Just go die in your sleep you mindless flatulent troll.

The more likely derivation can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies", popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group, alt.folklore.urban. Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been so overdone; only a new user would respond to them earnestly. For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common misconception that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death already, but new subscribers to the group would not "get it" and respond. These types of trolls served as a Shibboleth to identify group insiders. By the late 1990s, alt.folklore.urban had such heavy traffic and participation that trolling of this sort was frowned upon. Others expanded the term to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user, even in newsgroups where one was not a regular; these were often attempts at humor rather than provocation. In such contexts, the noun troll usually referred to an act of trolling, rather than to the author.

Recently, the word troll is also frequently used as a synonym for flamebait, even though the two words have distinct meanings.

Identity

In academic literature, the practice was first documented by Judith Donath (1999), who used several anecdotal examples from various Usenet newsgroups in her discussion. Donath's paper outlines the ambiguity of identity in a disembodied "virtual community"

In the physical world there is an inherent unity to the self, for the body provides a compelling and convenient definition of identity. The norm is: one body, one identity. ... The virtual world is different. It is composed of information rather than matter.

Donath provides a concise overview of identity deception games which trade on the confusion between physical and epistemic community:

Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they — and the troll — understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.

Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation." (Donath, 1999, p. 45)

Usage

The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.

Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll", for which PDNFTT is a common initialism.

The word troll is often and easily misused as ad hominem attack against someone whose viewpoints and input cannot othewise be silenced. Its successful use and misuse reveals much about how starkly different the world of technicians is compared to normal social and political discourse.

See also
DICKHEAD, SHITFACE, LOSER

Oh yes I went there, but I'm sure the majority will agree.
Thanks!
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Postby Diel » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:46 pm

Can I join the coolguy club now? Twyl, are you the guy that puts on lipstick repeatedly while staring at his list of people from high school that he'd like to kill? Give it a fucking rest.
Hoppel ASSOC:: 'ROFL ON THE BEST FLOOR EVAR!!!1!1!oneone'



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Hibbidy tells you 'kill giant'



Twyl tells you 'I hate my life'



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Postby Shar » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:48 pm

To respond to everyone with concerns of any sort regarding any questions or accusations inside this particular thread:

---Official Policy---

The staff always handle situations of equipment loss (or equipment theft) on an individual basis and do not ever disclose information of this sort to anyone who is not personally involved. As such, all involved are able to remain anonymous and protected if they choose. If however, the parties involved choose to make their statement(s) known to more than the staff alone, they opt to remove that protective barrier against whatever may happen.

Equipment is rarely reimbursed for *any* loss and is handled on a case by case basis. Situations vary too widely to stipulate each cause down to their specifics and therefore the staff rely on information available to make an accurate judgment.

If a player leaves equipment laying on the ground from a corpse rot, the items are considered abandoned. For all players information, the corpse rot time is clearly stated and is widely known.

A player who is or claims to be affected by circumstances outside the MUD will not be and should not expect to be reimbursed of any thing inside the MUD be that equipment, experience, age, stats or any other thing. Occasionally, a rare caveat allows for a reimbursement of some sort, however general policy is widely known and is stated. For more information, read "help reimbursement" and "help decay".

---Specific to this case---

At this point, with this case, we have only been given a partial story/statement and have not shared with any person information that was not already released. Since we have two full other sides to the "story" (1. being; log supported evidence and 2. being; the other player[s] statement,) it should be known that we still have the obligation to protect the other sides. The partial information that has been released is just that, partial. There is more to what has happened than there has been said and, as staff we are bound to protect that information and will continue to do so.

-----------

We as staff do not always enjoy our jobs but we will continue to do what is called for, to the best of our abilities, and we will not stop in this specific case regardless of "how it makes us look". Everyone should be aware that we do not think to do what is popular, we carry out what is right based both on the information we have access to and the information we are given. Sometimes, that means that we appear to be cruel, uncaring, uncooperative, or incompetent but these are labels that are generally arbitrary and in this case, do not fit.

From here on out, if this thread continues to devolve, it will be pruned and locked or removed entirely.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:29 am

Diel wrote:Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives....The word troll is often and easily misused as ad hominem attack against someone whose viewpoints and input cannot othewise be silenced.


Shar wrote:There is more to what has happened than there has been said and, as staff we are bound to protect that information and will continue to do so.


Call me names all you want, I haven't lost anyone else's equipment and then complained to the staff to implement measures to save me from my own lack of responsibility.
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Postby Maedor » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:32 am

I'm still confused how Diel's 'accidental' corpse rot is considered 'worse' than Gerin quitting/deleting in disgust after losing a tia bid.

Gerin did it 100% on purpose, and his stuff was returned
Gary was irresponsible, but didn't intend to quit out of rage...yet the clown who found 50bits of eq on a ds giant gets to keep his lottery winnings.

Honestly I feel that both situations should be made right...but if you refuse to fix one loss, why allow the other?

Maybe if Gary wrote a zone?

Maybe if he said he let his corpse rot cuz he was mad/immature?

Maybe if Gary hadn't lost 15 other sets of eq before?

Just doesn't seem very consistant...and clearly does not encourage fair and honest gameplay. Rules that keep players playing are > rules that encourage players to find other forms of entertainment.

Anyways--this thread is pointless--the staff are clearly happy with their decisions in these cases, and we cannot force them to change that opinion...for the longevity of the game, I really wish they would...at least for future incidents.
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Postby Shar » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:55 am

Maedor wrote:I'm still confused how Diel's 'accidental' corpse rot is considered 'worse' than Gerin quitting/deleting in disgust after losing a tia bid.

Gerin did it 100% on purpose, and his stuff was returned
Gary was irresponsible, but didn't intend to quit out of rage...yet the clown who found 50bits of eq on a ds giant gets to keep his lottery winnings.

Honestly I feel that both situations should be made right...but if you refuse to fix one loss, why allow the other?

Maybe if Gary wrote a zone?

Maybe if he said he let his corpse rot cuz he was mad/immature?

Maybe if Gary hadn't lost 15 other sets of eq before?

Just doesn't seem very consistant...and clearly does not encourage fair and honest gameplay. Rules that keep players playing are > rules that encourage players to find other forms of entertainment.

Anyways--this thread is pointless--the staff are clearly happy with their decisions in these cases, and we cannot force them to change that opinion...for the longevity of the game, I really wish they would...at least for future incidents.


Silena, you are mistaken. Cah never got a restore over deleting from a Tiamat bid and *never* got his eq given back to him by the staff in any way shape or form.
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Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

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Postby Kegor » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:01 am

Thank you for your response Shar. But, I still fail to see why this is not one of those rare caveats you mentioned. People that have a solid reputation for honesty and exceeding willingness to help others, all built on over a decade of playtime, should be given the benifit of the doubt in situations such as this. Period. I don't understand what other decision there could be. And yes your ruling on this IS seen as cruel, and could be seen in no other way if you put yourself in that situation. No matter how you dress it up or say rules that or rules this, it is wrong to ignore the matter and let someone else parade around in his decade of work, memories, and livelihood. Due to no fault of his own, mind you.

I appologize for feeling strongly about this. But it could happen to most of us. Very low probability of course, but if it happened to me this way, I would expect the right thing to be done. Anyone would. Thanks for letting me comment again.
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Postby Shar » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:54 pm

No need to apologize Jaznolg, everyone is welcome to their opinion including people uninvolved. :)
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Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:56 pm

Btw, Sylvos. If you're looking I think I kept the arrows I encouraged you to shoot me with (while not shooting any in return) in the arena so I could steal them :( Please mmail for reimbursment.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:46 pm

I think this thread needs...

*popcorn*
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Postby Raiwen » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:00 pm

Say you die. Your pcorpse has 18 hours on it.

Say someone walks along, and sees your pcorpse. you're not logged in.

They cast corpse glam on it. Or preserve.

Is the pcorpse time still 18 hours? Or has it been cut short to 2 hrs? Even though you're not on and haven't given consent?
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Postby Tasan » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:36 pm

It has been my understanding that if a corpse has not been looted or moved that the timer will not be reset by preserve. If this isn't the case...
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:47 pm

Roughly about a year ago, the code that reset a rot timer once a preserve was cast, was removed. It made little sense that as soon as a preservative spell was cast, the rot process would increase.

Additionally, all preserve spells cast upon a player corpse are logged and that would have been part of an investigation into a rot case back when it still happened that way. When cases of sabotage were detected, appropriate action was taken.

Corpse Glamor has no effect on a corpse's rot timer, nor it's suitability for other spells like spirit walk, scry remains and soul walk.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:39 pm

Jaznolg wrote: it is wrong to ignore the matter and let someone else parade around in his decade of work, memories, and livelihood.


Isn't it technically someone elses decade of work/livelihood in this case? I think it was stated that it wasn't his gear. All in all, a real shame it isn't coded that if you die while %% the rot timer doesn't start til you log in again.

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