Hows that for a kick in the balls?

[Akadees]

For the last two years I have been paying my ex wife a bunch of alimony. I could justify it by saying it would allow her to go to school, get her last two courses to get her degree and make a better llife for her and our kid.

It has been a colossal struggle to just make ends meet. Working long hours, watching every penny and worrying all the time. To say it has been a tough time for me is an understatement.

Well, in those two years my ex wife has hardly worked a lick just living off of my hard work. and those alimony and child support payments. She has done nothing to finish her school or give as better life for our child.

Now I find out she has gotten herself knocked up from her new boyfriend and is planning a wedding. She has wasted all that time and money and now my money from my hard work is being used for her wedding to the new guy. Dammit, it just isn't fare. I feel better now. Thanks for listening to my rant.

PS When I have not been spending my time working I have spent as much time as is possible with my child. So much so that I have not dated anyone in the two years, not that I could of come close to affording a girlfriend.

[Llaaldara]

What are the limitations of your alimony? Does it stop if she gets remarried? I'd say talk to your lawyer, but you sound broke so.. ask Corf! :D

[Birile]

*nods*

Let 'er get married, chances are your alimony obligation ends when she says "I do." (this does not, of course, apply to your child support obligation but every little bit helps).

[Cirath]

Personally, I have to say that alimony in general is a huge load of crap. It is effectively privately funded welfare, that not only encourages laziness, but also encourages the greedy, gold-digging aspect of human nature. If the dissolution of a marriage is supposed to sever all ties and responsibilities that came with the forming of that union, then why should one of the two individuals have to continue to support the other? In the case of children, one would think that they would be placed with the parent that could best support them, and as such would not require nearlly so much (if any) assistance.

In fact, as far as I can tell, the only beneficial thing that alimony and divorce settlements do is occasionally encourage people to think long and hard about the person they intend to wed, and decide whether they can make it work for 50+ years.

[Akadees]

I can really appreciate the sentiment. When she gets married I can file with the court to have the alimony eliminated. Of course it is a two edged sword. When the alimony is reduced the amount of child support she gets will go up because her income is decreased from loosing the alimony. Also, every time you get a raise she can petition the court to have the child support raised. This goes on until the child reaches the age of maturity which is 18 here in California.

Alimony (at least in the USA) is based on length of marriage how much you make and how much she makes. You are expected to keep her in the fashion that she was used to. What fashion that leaves you in is not mentioned. But the general thinking was that she was at home taking care of the home front and supporting you while you made your fortune in the world. It assumes that without you she would of been out there improving herself and making her way through the world. So in effect it pays her back for all the "sacrifices" she has made. It is also supposed to give her a chance to get her feet under her and get those all important job skills so she can make her way in a reasonable fashion. The bad thing about alimony is if you were married for more than 10 years it can be made to last in perpetuity or until she gets married.

[Ambar]

Alimony should be temporary, until she can get herself on her feet if she quit her pervious job to care for the family .. if she never worked, then alimony should be case by case basis .... it should NOT mean she can sit on her ass and eat bonbons .. it just ticks me off to see SOME women abuse men this way .. she should have to PROVE she is trying to get a job, just like when you are on unemployment you ahve to show some proof .. or going to school while working part time since it is her choice to go to school, good jobs CAN be found without a college education ..

I totally sympathize with you, warmest wishes and send you biggest Jennifer hugs

Let her get married again, see how her new husband feels about her AFTER the cake gets eaten *halo*



Little joke to insert here .. whats the BEST form of birth control?? ... Wedding cake!!!!

[sok]

but i didn't have sex until after my wedding

[ssar]

but i didn't have sex until after my wedding

U mean yer not virgin?1?

[Cirath]

You are expected to keep her in the fashion that she was used to.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems with the system. To hell with what she is accustomed to, luxuries should not be taken into account. Alimony should never provide more than the bare minimum needed to get by on a day to day basis (meaning basic groceries, utilities, and rent/morgage payments). If alimony payments add up to much more than a full time minimum wage job, then there is a problem.

As for child support lasting (and even increasing) after alimony has been ceased: That makes even less sense. If you are no longer required to pay alimony, then it means that the person you were providing for has secured a means of supporting herself and any children she has custody of. This, of course, does not mean that you may not feel a moral obligation to the children, or that you might not want to provide them with additional support, but to be required to do so when their needs have already been met is insane.

As a side note, I have to wonder how many men have ever recieved alimony payments from ex-wives, and what percentage of men actually gain custody of children (under ordinary circumstances, and excluding extremes like an abussive or negligent parent).

[Ambar]

Cirath, child support is a different thing ENTIRELY than alimony .. Child support should continue until the child is 18, period .. unless the custodial parent gives up the child support option, in which case they should never be allowed to repetition .. I never requested nor received child support for my daughter, so I shouldnt be allowed to ask for it later (moot in my case since she turns 18 soon anyway) .. I do feel that child support rates are too high, but consider that SOME (not most, not all.. SOME) men have children with three different women, each one should be paid the same amount) .. and for those skanks who keep popping babies out for the support, thats another matter in itself .. I dont think child support should be anough to live on, perhaps a portion of what it takes to maintain the house and primary bills .. certainly not half, but a portion .. and it shouldnt go up by much per child .. ie: you dont get double if you have two kids, nor triple if you have three, etc

In some cases (my mother's) .. her husband left HER high and dry with the house they had bought together, a VERY small 1000 square foot house ... he left her to go live with anbother woman, they had decided years ago that my mom should stay at home and care for the house, this arrangement worked for both of them til he got bored and walked out ...

In this case, he was ordered to pay spousal support until she could take care of herself and pay for the house alone (meager house, I do believe the mortgage was around 600.00).. He was ordered to pay this for a certain period of time, then at his retirement he VOLUNTEERED to give her a portion of his retirement .. he also VOLUNTEERED to pay her car payments til it was paid off (another 2 years or so IIRC)

For the woman who decides to leave cause she is bored, different scenario entirely .. she decided to leave, she should be able to care for herself when she leaves .. period .. once again, child support is a different thing entirely, and should be allowed for any minor children up to the age of 18 ..

Another different case is spousal abuse .. .. in that case, spousal support should apply

So for the guy across the street who was left high and dry with their three kids all under age 6 .. his deadbeat wife gives him NO support at all, she even tried to get HIM to pay HER (LOL) after she deserted her three kids and him, left him with thousands of dollars in bills, left him DAYS from being kicked out int he street because she was bored and decided to party it up with other men and stop paying the mortgage while the husband was out to sea .. personally I think she should be jailed as a deadbeat, but this guy allows her to visit with the kids, they are NEVER allowed to stay overnight with her, but bi-weekly visits are allowed ..

Man I hate deadbeats :(

[Ambar]

And as far as your question as to how many men are getting custody, I think the number will grow .. it is not the ame day of *the woman gets the kids* anymore, laws are changing as women's roles in society change .. I think the number is still VERY low, too low .. but I do think more men will be retaining the kids, the house, etc ... as it should be

Pisses me off the see the better parent lose out just because the kids go to the mom traditionally .. whoever the better provider/parent is should be who "gets the kids" unless the two can reach an agreement .. A LOT of men make better parents than the mother, why shouldnt they have their children with them .. and then the non custodial parent pays support, whether it is the mom OR the dad ..

Sorry if I seem so adamant about this matter, it just infuriates me to see a guy lose becsause he is male and "obviously" cant take care of the kids better than she is .. it is not fair!!

[kiryan]

sounds like a raw deal. If your a good father, your children will know. Maybe not now, but definitely in their 30s. What's a few thousand or 30 or 40 thousand compared to getting rid of your ex, would you rather still be married to her knowing that she was unwilling to keep her vows? Would you rather have it happen later rather than sooner?

You can always make more money. You can always be happy with less money if you choose to be happy. Choose to be happy and look on the bright side. Your life is probably "better" without her even if you're having a hard time seeing how right now and really wish you had it easier.

BTW, I wouldn't say or do anything until after she is married. If you let your hurt feelings get in the way and she realizes shes not going to get any more alimoney, she might just decide to cohabitate for a long while and you could be paying alimony a long time. In some states, her new husband's income may be construed as her income or half her income which may also reduce your child support obligation.

I'd be far more worried about what kind of guy is going to be around your kid than how unfair your financial situation is.

[Lilira]

Unfortunately the numbers are far too low still.

But that's all I'm going to say about that... I have my own horror stories from dealing with HIS ex...

*sews her lips closed*

[Birile]

Whatever the drama is here...

While the execution of alimony laws may not seem to be the best, they are certainly better than leaving a woman who DID sacrifice everything for a relationship high and dry... that being said, a lot of women take it for granted.

As for child support, I personally notify the court systems myself each and every time I get a raise and am very open about finances with my ex and offer up money willingly--my daughter is well worth it and while I can't stand my ex and don't have the same parenting philosophies as she does, I'm not going to let money cause a strain when so many other things already do! Besides, she's a good mom--I can't ask for anything more.

Now... sticking my nose where it doesn't belong since it was aired publicly--maybe there are two adults here who really need to let the past be the past and start moving on and working together for their child(ren)'s sake? Trust me, that's what they'll remember most when they're adults. You're no longer married but you still have a relationship and, more importantly, you have a very big responsibility to one or more true innocents in this situation. And if they fall into the same trap in their own relationships when they're older they can blame you both. Cheers.

[Akadees]

I guess I didn't really make myself clear what ticked me off so much and set me ranting in the first place. I really don't have a problem with the child support and alimony. That is part of what happens when you get married and the marriage ends up failing. That is part of what you agree to when you say I do. What gets me mad is I have worked so hard to hold up to my responsibilities, whether they be financial, or seeing my child as much as possible. And I provide her with a chance to make a decent life for our child. But instead she throws it away and takes it for granted. If she wants to end up living out of a shopping cart thats her business but I wish she wouldnt drag our child into this also. In summary, what really bothers me is that she is not doing the things she needs to do to financially take care of our child.

I've got a lot a anger issues with her and it worries me that I may run into a woman whom deserves my love and I won't be able to give it. Plus I've seen true heart break. I watched my 2 year old (at the time) desperately try to drag mommies hand to daddy to make things right. I wanted more than anything in the world to make things right and have a happy family for our child and knew that it was beyond my power. You don't know what that does to a responsible man.

Divorce truly sucks and the person it ends up hurting the most is the child.

[Cirath]

Cirath, child support is a different thing ENTIRELY than alimony .. Child support should continue until the child is 18, period ..

My point was that requiring a parent to pay child support is proof that the child is not with the parent that is capable of supporting it. As for manditory child support continuing until the kid is not longer a minor: why? If the child's needs are taken care of, then why should the parent that does not have custody and does not feel morally obligated to continue providing financial assistance be required to do so? It is no longer a matter of the welfare of the offspring, but rather it is punishing the parent who lost or (more likely in an example such as this) gave up custody.

In some cases (my mother's) .. her husband left HER high and dry with the house they had bought together, a VERY small 1000 square foot house ... he left her to go live with anbother woman, they had decided years ago that my mom should stay at home and care for the house, this arrangement worked for both of them til he got bored and walked out ...

In this case, he was ordered to pay spousal support until she could take care of herself and pay for the house alone (meager house, I do believe the mortgage was around 600.00).. He was ordered to pay this for a certain period of time, then at his retirement he VOLUNTEERED to give her a portion of his retirement .. he also VOLUNTEERED to pay her car payments til it was paid off (another 2 years or so IIRC)

While she may not be able to live in the same manner that she may have been used to, even with no special skills and no education past high school it is quite easy to provide yourself with an acceptable living (I personally live comfortable a fair bit below the poverty line). Minimum wage jobs may not be exciting or glamorous, but they do, in fact, provide addequate funds to get by on, so long as one isn't supporting a large number of people. As for voluntary assistance, well, a person can do whatever they choose with their own money. My only grievance is with certain court ordered expenditures

once again, child support is a different thing entirely, and should be allowed for any minor children up to the age of 18 ..

Another different case is spousal abuse .. .. in that case, spousal support should apply

Why?

[teflor the ranger]

My point was that requiring a parent to pay child support is proof that the child is not with the parent that is capable of supporting it.

Except that it is not. Requiring a parent to pay child support merely indicates that society holds both parents financially responsible for the raising of a child (in many states).

In some (few) states, a parent paying child support _could_ be proof of what you are claiming, but it is hardly true of all jurisdictions.

[Kegor]

And people ask me why I haven't married my gf yet. This topic in particular is/are the main reasons for that. *Shudder* We share bank accounts and all of our finances and stuff, and have for almost 2 years. That's just one of the many time, and trust testing tests I have for my relationship. She is acing all finacial tests, and has for a very long time, but she still has the time test to pass. I figure around five to six years after a solid stay of living together, sharing finances, and fidelity status, I might just marry her if she's lucky, and if I'm lucky, never have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned in this topic.

It's a wicked world we live in. I would much rather marry her now honestly. She has proven herself for the most part, but if I'm wrong, I don't got vasaline for that kinda bent insertion dance. So me, she, her family, my family, and our friends will have to keep asking me that question, because society has made divorce more of a disaster than it needs to be.

[Ambar]

Don't worry, Cirath I wont argue with you about this .. you have your views, I have my own, or you have never been married or dont have kids or have no views on parental responsibility, nor have you read anything I typed .. or something :)

As a side note .. when I cited my mom's situation, I never once said that she needed to receive support past a time when she coudl have cared for herself .. In fact I have said in this thread that women should not be allowed to live beyond a point of self sufficience, or minimum living capability .. keep in mind not all women are out to get men, and not all women want to screw thei ex out of everything they have .. I am one of the good exes .. all I want from my ex is my own retirement, he can keep his as well .. I have supported our daughter with NO help from him .. no help with food, school supplies, clothes .. NOTHING .. and I personally do not need it .. I would get two, three jobs before I would ask anything of him :)

A parent who doesnt think they have any need add to a child's care may not be the best parent this country, any country needs :)

Jaznolg, I love you .. but .. if you think your future wife needs to pass *tests* before she is marriage worthy, maybe this isnt the relationship that needs to end in marriage :) .. And I hope you are passing HER tests as well :) I understand watching out for yourself, but there is a point in time that it may become a bit .. hmm much is all I can think of, maybe paranoid?

[Cirath]

Don't worry, Cirath I wont argue with you about this .. you have your views, I have my own, or you have never been married or dont have kids or have no views on parental responsibility, nor have you read anything I typed .. or something :)

I am not looking for an argument, but rather answers to questions that genuinely confuse me. However, if you would rather make veiled insults, that is fine.

keep in mind not all women are out to get men, and not all women want to screw thei ex out of everything they have .. I am one of the good exes .. all I want from my ex is my own retirement, he can keep his as well .. I have supported our daughter with NO help from him .. no help with food, school supplies, clothes .. NOTHING .. and I personally do not need it .. I would get two, three jobs before I would ask anything of him :)

I didn't think that I implied that I believed women were all out to get men, but if so, then it was not my intention. I was, in fact, pointing out that the system was the problem (it being biassed towards a specific gender is only a small fraction of the issues). As for your own situation: thats all well and good, but one person not abusing the system does not erase the thousands that are milking it.

A parent who doesnt think they have any need add to a child's care may not be the best parent this country, any country needs :)

Once again, this totally ignores my point that mandatory payments are not a good idea. Whether or not you think a person is a good parent has nothing to do with whether they should be made to pay. If the kid is taken care of, then the problem is ended, and any further billing of a parent (note, I said parent, not father) that does not wish to voluntarily do so is simply punishment for not gaining custody.

[Kegor]

Testing is good. Maybe I explained it like I am a little too scientific about it, but whatever. And if I'm paranoid it is because society made me that way! *twitch twitch*

But seriously, what are the benifits of marrage other than filing one set of taxes instead of two? Or maybe throwing a huge party and taking a vacation that is called a honeymoon instead. Changing her last name?

I just don't get it. I guess my point is, if you have already decided you want to spend the rest of your life with that person, and they with you, why do you need to rush into it? I've always found patience to be a good practice. :)

[Ambar]

I agree with not rushing into it :) Marriage scares me!!! I guess I reacted to the *testing* part of your post :)


Cirath, I am done responding :) I said I won't argue and I won't :) You have your views, I have mine :) You are 100% correct about men getting screwed in the past, lets get past that and move to the future where women get screwed financially just like guys used to, providing the better parent gets custody :) Thats all that matters in the end .. the kids

[Birile]

Jaznolg--

Your worries are exactly what pre-nups are for. And I disagree with Ambar--people *should* pass little "tests" or whatever you want to name them before you decide you want to marry them. But that's my own opinion. I do agree with Ambar that I hope you are passing her tests as well.

Marriage, to me, is one of the ultimate commitments you can make to your partner, and shows your partner that you really do think you want to be with him/her forever and are willing to take whatever risks are involved. But it's not a necessary step in a healthy relationship. Do it if you want to, but don't feel pressured to.

Cirath--

I think it's important to understand that child support isn't some sort of penalty imposed on a non-custodial parent. I also think it's important to note that it's not 100% mandatory in the sense that if the custodial parent does not feel they need/want financial help for whatever reason, they do not have to petition a court to order the non-custodial parent to make child support payments.

In my own personal situation, my daughter's mother is very firmly placed in the middle class and is, really, just below the upper middle class range. Does that mean she doesn't need any financial support from me? Not necessarily. But to me that's a rather moot point. My daughter is my daughter. I would feel like the biggest loser if I didn't contribute. Hell, after 9/11 I lost my cushy job making scads of money and I was unemployed for 9 months and I still made my agreed payments. It was the one thing I insisted on paying each month and on time--even paying the support early at times. I could have petitioned a court to temporarily lower the payments or rid me of the obligation completely (while I was unemployed) but I didn't (and I fully recognize a person's right and need to do this in their own personal situations and would not look down on someone for taking this avenue if they felt the need).

Let's look at some numbers. In New York State the general obligated percentage of a non-custodial parent's child support obligation is 17% of their gross salary for one child. Think about that. 17%. Do you really think the custodial parent spends LESS than that on the child? Honestly! 17% of my gross income is a pittance compared to what I was contributing to the household (and to my daughter's welfare) when we were together!

As for child support being proof that the child is not with the parent who can better support him/her... I know a lot of people who make $50 payments every week for their child. If they're making $50 payments it means they're not exactly making a lot of money. So how can we then surmise that the non-custodial parent can better provide for the child financially?

There are always going to be people who take advantage of any sort of system. But that does not mean the system isn't needed and it certainly doesn't mean the system causes more harm than it does good. And as I eluded to earlier, there are avenues a non-custodial parent can take to lower their child support obligation. Courts are not set up to be uncaring, judges are human, they know that not everything is black and white. If someone is truly struggling to meet their obligation the court is willing to hear that and consider making an adjustment. If you truly feel your ex is taking you for a ride, tell the court. It's what they're there for. And stick by the court's decision and try to realize that if the court doesn't always side with you, that maybe you are a little biased in your reasoning!

Anyway, enough about that...

I don't know. In the end call me old-fashioned, but an adult does their best to take care of their responsibilities. *shrug*

[Birile]

Thats all that matters in the end .. the kids

Not to get all gushy or anything, but Amen to this.