Funny how times change

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
avak
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Funny how times change

Postby avak » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:47 am

Some of us knew this backlash against an unjust war was only a matter of time. I took the opportunity to re-read a 234 response thread about Iraq from a couple of years ago. Funny stuff. Anyway, in the "If you're not with us, you're against us" and "we don't negotiate with terrorists" file, we have:

US praised for diplomacy ahead of summit


· Syria and Iran likely to attend stability meeting
· Conference marks abrupt reversal by Washington

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Thursday March 1, 2007
The Guardian

The Bush administration won rare praise for its diplomacy on Iraq yesterday as plans for an inter

national conference on stabilising the country gathered pace, with Syria and Iran indicating they would participate.

"Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, even the US and Britain have informed us they will participate," the Iraqi deputy foreign minister, Labi Abawi, told reporters in Baghdad.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2023830,00.html
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Postby Ruxur » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:46 am

*bird*
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:17 am

What a joke.

The US is rewarding Syria and Iran for being civil (hell, I'll even use the ultra-liberal New York Times)

Syria Police Foil Terrorists
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E1DF1331F936A35751C1A9639C8B63&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fSyria
Syria to Let Officials Be Questioned in Lebanon Assassination
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0A13FD3C550C758EDDA80994DD404482&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fSyria
Syria and Iraq Restore Ties Severed in the Hussein Era
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0910F73E5A0C728EDDA80994DE404482&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fSyria
THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ; Syrian Officials and Iraq Study Group Met, Envoy Says
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0912F73F5A0C7B8DDDA80994DE404482&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fSyria

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ; Iran Leader Disputes U.S. Charges on Militias
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00C14F7345B0C708DDDAB0894DF404482&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIran
U.S. Ally and Foe Are Trying to Avert War in Lebanon
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60C16FB3F5B0C738FDDA80894DF404482&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIran
Iran President Meets Saudi to Discuss Mideast Issues
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/world/middleeast/04saudi.html?n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territories%2fIran

and you somehow interpret it as the US bowing to an invisible backlash created by ultra-liberal media pop stars that have no real say in any country's foreign policy?

I'm sorry Avak, but you have a very strange view of the world.

At the very same time, Avak, you ...umm DO realize that the United States of America has been involved in active diplomatic talks with _North Korea_ for years? With the Palestinian Authority? With Vietnam?

FOR YEARS?!?

Backlash nothing.
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Postby avak » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:10 pm

Image

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=304

I'll be landing in DC tomorrow to share my "strange view of the world" with two Senators and a Representative. They must have time for some comedic relief.

Oh, by the way, the entire point was that some people on this board were making the assertion that the Iraq debacle would ultimately be addressed with regional diplomacy. Others were saying that we should never negotiate with terrorists and that we must kill all of the terrorists to create peace.

Perhaps you've noticed that killing terrorists is like chopping starfish into pieces and then throwing them back in the water.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:27 pm

Of course, popular opinion of the rank and file bozo must make you right? How could I not have thought of that. Like witch hunts in 17th century Massachusetts? I don't know what stem cells are, but I'm against them?


Nevermind that opinion that things "are not going well" has absolutely nothing to do with 'backlash against an unjust war was only a matter of time.'

I live in DC. Do you have any idea how many and what kind of people they allow to share their opinions with Senators and Representatives?

You furthermore don't even comprehend the main point: that we still aren't negotiating with terrorists and we still are killing terrorists. Regional diplomacy with civil powers was always a TOOL OF WAR that was NEVER ruled out by the administration. You'd understand that if you ever bothered with the study of human history.

Perhaps you've noticed the plummeting of terrorist attacks in the western world.

Avak, how many people in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?

0

We are sooooo losing this war.
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Postby avak » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:23 pm

(CNN) -- After a sweeping Democratic takeover of the House of Representatives in Tuesday's midterm election, and with control of the Senate hanging in the balance, exit polls indicated views of President Bush and the war in Iraq were key to the outcome.(Watch poll results back up dissatisfaction -- 1:43 Video)

According to CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider, voters were angry and wanted change -- and the old adage that all politics is local did not apply this year.

Schneider said as he interviewed voters across the country, "a lot of voters said, 'I'm going to vote Democratic.' They didn't even know the name of the Democrat, but they said, 'I'm going to vote Democratic because I don't like Bush, I don't like the war, I want to make a statement'." (Watch Bill Schneider discuss the national exit polls -- 2:19 Video)


Do you need more evidence of a backlash against the war?

It's a real stretch to say that this post-election stance is not an abrupt reversal of policy on the part of the Bush admin. It wasn't that long ago that Iran was in the Axis of Evil and Bolton was calling Syria a rogue nation and McClellan was saying "We do not negotiate with terrorists."

I find it interesting that you ask how many people -in- America have been killed by terrorist attacks because had you said just 'Americans' that would be a completely different answer. That, and I'm quite sure our occupation of Iraq has nothing to do with the fortunate fact that we have suffered no further attacks at home.

By the way, thanks for the thinly veiled insult about my credentials. I'm on the board of directors for an NGO helping to write the 2007 Farm Bill. This will be my third set of face-to-face meetings in less than two weeks. You'd probably be more familiar with staffers and form letters; if you're even active in the process that is.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:58 pm

You're not seriously arguing with Teflor, are you? We've got a better chance of winning the War on Terror than you do of retaining sanity in such an endeavor...
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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:42 pm

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:50 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Avak, how many people in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?


I have a magic stick that keeps tigers away. Number of times I've been attacked by tigers in the last five years:

0

No, you can't have my stick.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:02 pm

I'd like to buy your stick!
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Postby Yasden » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:45 pm

*insert meatstick joke here*
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Postby Kifle » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:51 am

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Avak, how many people in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?


I have a magic stick that keeps tigers away. Number of times I've been attacked by tigers in the last five years:

0

No, you can't have my stick.


Lol, owned.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:32 am

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Avak, how many people in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?


I have a magic stick that keeps tigers away. Number of times I've been attacked by tigers in the last five years:

0

No, you can't have my stick.


It was a magic rock on the simpsons. Sigh.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:42 am

Sigh. If only terrorists were as easily defended from as tigers. Fortunately, tigers have not yet acquired IED technology.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:26 am

Well, they could just buy some real weapons from the Iranians if they wanted...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:20 am

avak wrote:It's a real stretch to say that this post-election stance is not an abrupt reversal of policy on the part of the Bush admin. It wasn't that long ago that Iran was in the Axis of Evil and Bolton was calling Syria a rogue nation and McClellan was saying "We do not negotiate with terrorists."


You may want to try reading the post where I demonstrated that Syria and Iran are the countries that have had a reversal of policy and decided to stop isolating themselves from the world.

Avak wrote:I find it interesting that you ask how many people -in- America have been killed by terrorist attacks because had you said just 'Americans' that would be a completely different answer. That, and I'm quite sure our occupation of Iraq has nothing to do with the fortunate fact that we have suffered no further attacks at home.


I'm sure being a boardmember of "Dairy Farmers of America" gives you special insight that the average American would never have about the War in Iraq. (Yes, I am assaulting your self-provided credentials, because your credentials have absolutely nothing to do with political or military analysis. You don't wave a PHD in literature when you're at an IEEE meeting.)

Avak wrote:By the way, thanks for the thinly veiled insult about my credentials. I'm on the board of directors for an NGO helping to write the 2007 Farm Bill. This will be my third set of face-to-face meetings in less than two weeks. You'd probably be more familiar with staffers and form letters; if you're even active in the process that is.


Yes, again, what part of being a member of the board of the Organic Grower's Association gives you such special insight into the workings of global military/political/sociological affairs?

Noooone?

The fact is that the world has changed, Avak. You've just been too slow to realize that it's not entirely the administration.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby avak » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:41 am

Lol, Teflor, if you showed up at a Dairy Farmers of America meeting they'd try to milk you.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:42 pm

avak wrote:Lol, Teflor, if you showed up at a Dairy Farmers of America meeting they'd try to milk you.


Why do you think I am so bitter, Avak? Good luck with your face-to-face. Our country does need to straighten out our agri-policy and stop bending over for foreign farmers.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:49 pm

But why should the foreign oil barons have all the fun?
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Postby Corth » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:41 pm

Someone needs to explain to me wtf an NGO is and why it matters..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Ambar » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:08 pm

non governmental organization .. sounds suspiciously like a cult

*nod me*
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:52 pm

I like the Wikipedia take on it:

NGOs exist for a variety of purposes, usually to further the political or social goals of their members or funders. Examples include improving the state of the natural environment, encouraging the observance of human rights, improving the welfare of the disadvantaged, or representing a corporate agenda. However, there are a huge number of such organizations and their goals cover a broad range of political and philosophical positions. <b>This can also easily be applied to private schools and athletic organizations.</b>


I wrestled in High School so I was apparently a member of an NGO from 1991-1993!
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Postby Botef » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:41 pm

Most NGO's, as least from all the work I've done with them, tend to focus on volunteer-type projects at home and in other countries. I think advocacy is a big part of it too, but I only ever work on international projects. I work quite closely with a Professor Emeritus of Agriculture who cooperates with a number of NGO's to setup things like the Cochran Fellowship or Moringa projects in places like Belize, Jordan, the Sudan, Oman, etc. - as well as goodwill projects, volunteer consulting, etc.

Basically they are just organizations that are not government sponsored or related to a specific political agenda. From my experience they tend to get a lot more done on a personal level too and do a lot of good work. A lot of what they do from my experience is network and share resources.

Most of the stuff I do is related to or in conjunction with WANGO which is a worldwide association of NGO's. Most of the stuff I do relates to starting educational programs in other countries or helping groups in other countries get things like Moringa seeds or other agricultural supplies that are difficult to import without a sponsor.


The World Association of Non-Governmental Organizations (WANGO) is an international organization uniting NGOs worldwide in the cause of advancing peace and global well being. WANGO helps to provide the mechanism and support needed for NGOs to connect, partner, share, inspire, and multiply their contributions to solve humanity’s basic problems.

Concerned with universal values shared across the barriers of politics, culture, religion, race and ethnicity, the founding organizations and individuals envisioned an organization that would enable NGOs to work in partnership across those barriers, thereby weaving a selfless social fabric essential to establishing a worldwide culture of peace. By optimizing resources and sharing vital information, WANGO provides a means for NGOs to become more effective in completing their vital tasks.


Rewarding work IMO, I've seen a lot of good come from the projects I've been involved in. I really enjoy it. Never thought a career in Graphic Design would lead me to international volunteer work with NGO's but the work I do is definately one of the highlights of my day.

While the realm of work I do is agricultural, I've gained A LOT of insight into worldwide issues just from communicating with so many people around the globe, especially people in places that feel the reverb from things like the war in Iraq.

Teflor, while you may think being a board member for a Dairy Farmer NGO has nothing to do with terrorism or global politics it most certainly can. The issues presented by terrorism and the US's campaign against it has global impacts at all levels of interaction, not just the military and governmental end, which includes farmer to farmer relationships. Thats all Im going to say on the subject - its not something I enjoy debating.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:01 am

Botef wrote:Teflor, while you may think being a board member for a Dairy Farmer NGO has nothing to do with terrorism or global politics it most certainly can.


Botef, I believe you read too much into my assault upon credentials that fail to establish expertise in interpreting global foreign policy dictates, diplomatic events, and military analysis. I do not think that being a board member for an agricultural NGO has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, as every industry is significantly and severely affected by overall threats to the nation. However, the credentials presented were fundamentally insufficient to establish _any_ expertise in the above mentioned fields whatsoever.

When you only bring credentials to an argument, be prepared to have them scrutinized as if they were arguments.
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Postby Vigis » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:33 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Sigh. If only terrorists were as easily defended from as tigers. Fortunately, tigers have not yet acquired IED technology.



Tamil Tigers

Don't really feel like getting involved in this "debate" but thought it was a nice play on words.
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Postby avak » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:37 pm

Well, the meetings were great. Every time I've been to DC it has been impossible not to feel intrinsically patriotic. Strangely enough though, I was walking around the mall with a friend and I asked her, "how can Bush see all of these monuments to our great leaders and not feel embarassed?" I mean seriously, could that guy stand in the Lincoln memorial and say, yeah, that's my peer...

You know, WWI and WWII were clearly high points in the American story. Obviously there is nothing good about people dying, but our country eventually stepped forward and changed the path of history for the good. I struggle with some of the details, but it is impossible to not be humbled by such an epic time in our history.

Now we have this debacle on our hands with no clear purpose. The mastermind of the attacks on our country turns 50 while having eluded us for the last six years. The organization that claimed responsibility is rebounding...even in a country we control militarily.

Anyway, it all seems pretty terrible.

I knew I was sticking my foot in my mouth saying anything about my "credentials" on the internet. I was mostly bristling to the idea that somehow I'm out of step with reality or not qualified to have a strong opinion on this issue. The only time I have ever publicly protested was in the winter before we invaded Iraq and I vividly remember the ridicule we faced for that. Dissent may be in vogue now, but a few years ago it felt like treason. No matter who's side you're on; I'm glad the discussion has become more transparent.

Last thing, if you look at the posts in context, it is pretty apparent that I was not claiming to be an expert on "interpreting global foreign policy dictates, diplomatic events, and military analysis." That is just a silly diversion of the actual thrust of the conversation. Besides, I highly doubt Teflor is an expert in any of the above, yet seems to always have a fairly authoratative opinion on that subject and um, like every thing else...
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Postby Corth » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:16 pm

I don't really understand the visceral hatred of Bush.. even by people who were not directly effected by his policy decisions regarding terrorism and the middle east. For instance, the myriad protestors recently in south america. My theory is that 'world government' types (leftists, NGO's, etc) are trying to punish him for acting without the permission of the rest of the world. I think its dangerous to drink that kool-aid. The day an American president bases policy decisions primarily on what the rest of the world thinks, is the day that American excellence ends.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:06 pm

avak wrote:Last thing, if you look at the posts in context, it is pretty apparent that I was not claiming to be an expert on "interpreting global foreign policy dictates, diplomatic events, and military analysis." That is just a silly diversion of the actual thrust of the conversation. Besides, I highly doubt Teflor is an expert in any of the above, yet seems to always have a fairly authoratative opinion on that subject and um, like every thing else...


Oh look, a silly diversion from the actual thrust of the conversation.

avak wrote:Lol, Teflor, if you showed up at a Dairy Farmers of America meeting they'd try to milk you


avak wrote:I'll be landing in DC tomorrow to share my "strange view of the world" with two Senators and a Representative.


Oh look, a couple more.



Physician, heal thyself?

- better yet, suggest a comprehensive solution to global jihadist terrorism and instability in the middle east that does not include a military component? Don't worry, I can't think of one either.
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Postby Llaaldara » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:45 pm

Re: Teflor

The last I heard the number was 3,186 total American casualties from the "War on Terror" in Iraq alone.

Or are you going to insinuate that their deaths don't count because they weren't on U.S. soil, despite the fact that they are engaged in an active conflict with terrorists? By all means, please elaborate on your rationalization.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:44 am

Llaaldara wrote:The last I heard the number was 3,186 total American casualties from the "War on Terror" in Iraq alone.


10 bucks says more people died on U.S. soil during that time period from gunshot wounds/stabbings...

Face the facts, the military is an at-will institution now and the people that have put themselves at risk understand what they are getting into from the moment they sign away their time. Yes it is humbling to look at the numbers, but compared to any major conflict overseas for that time period, I think we've done an amazing job of keeping the total number of casualties to a minimum. Granted, I can't say the same for the people of Iraq, but civil war always sheds more blood.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:15 pm

avak wrote:Besides, I highly doubt Teflor is an expert in any of the above, yet seems to always have a fairly authoratative opinion on that subject and um, like every thing else...


Teflor is actually the Jeeves from "Ask Jeeves." He's paid millions of dollars a year to sit at his computer and answer peoples' questions. He's just that smart. I hear he actually holds nine Ph.D.'s and is a 70 star general in the U.S. and British armies. He also conquered asia minor with a sardine can and a piece of bubble gum.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:32 pm

Tasan wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:The last I heard the number was 3,186 total American casualties from the "War on Terror" in Iraq alone.


10 bucks says more people died on U.S. soil during that time period from gunshot wounds/stabbings...


Probably. But so what?

Actually, given that assumption maybe we'd be better off keeping some of those soldiers here acting as police forces.

In any case, they are still Americans and still dying to terrorist attacks.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:35 am

How often is an organized attack on a uniformed military asset an act of terrorism? When the Third Reich's Heeresgruppe B attacked the American's 1st Army was that a terrorist attack as well?

What about the NVA's Tet offensive? Was that a terrorist attack?

I think perhaps, you should think about what a terrorist attack is, as well as what terrorism is at heart. Many people take the most racist view of terrorism - that is to say, to mark all things done by middle eastern people with turbans as terrorism. For example, Avak seems to think that the fact that we're about to engage Syria and Iran in diplomatic talks - that we're somehow negotiating with terrorists.

Avak wrote:Oh, by the way, the entire point was that some people on this board were making the assertion that the Iraq debacle would ultimately be addressed with regional diplomacy. Others were saying that we should never negotiate with terrorists"


Excuse me, but how are Syria and Iran terrorists? They are legitimate, recognized, sovereign nation states that have recently began to stop isolating themselves in the global community. "Terrorist attacks" my foot. Labels attached by a public that does not understand, and a media that knows nothing but how to grab ratings. While there have been a few terror attacks on US troops, it is incomprehensible that one could confuse those with the total number of US war dead (nevermind that a large number of them were from car accidents) - Btw Lala: the job of defending the homeland is a _job_done_well.

Organized attacks on a military asset = terrorism?

Absurd. Absolutely absurd.
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Postby avak » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:03 pm

For example, Avak seems to think that the fact that we're about to engage Syria and Iran in diplomatic talks - that we're somehow negotiating with terrorists.


Both Syria and Iran are members of the exclusive "Axis of Evil" club. As members of the club they are considered "state sponsors of terror" by the US administration. Making a sincere distinction between terrorist and state sponsor of terrorists is splitting hairs to say the least.

So, yeah, I can use the internet too. Here's some stuff from the Department of State website:

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today and present the Administration's views on Iran. ...

Let me now turn to the subject of terrorism.

U.S. policy toward Iran on this subject is firm. The regime must end its support of international terrorism. Iran is the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss Syria’s role as a state sponsor of terrorism.


Anyway, you can argue the semantics all day long. The fact remains that the administration is in an abrupt reversal of policy and tactics in Iraq and the war on terror because we are failing. This grand ideological vision of a peaceful and democratic Middle East imposed by force and coercion is and always has been fundamentally flawed.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:40 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:How often is an organized attack on a uniformed military asset an act of terrorism?


So flying a plane into the Pentagon wasn't a terrorist attack?
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:35 pm

Tasan wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:The last I heard the number was 3,186 total American casualties from the "War on Terror" in Iraq alone.


10 bucks says more people died on U.S. soil during that time period from gunshot wounds/stabbings...

Face the facts, the military is an at-will institution now and the people that have put themselves at risk understand what they are getting into from the moment they sign away their time. Yes it is humbling to look at the numbers, but compared to any major conflict overseas for that time period, I think we've done an amazing job of keeping the total number of casualties to a minimum. Granted, I can't say the same for the people of Iraq, but civil war always sheds more blood.


Silly Tasan *goose* I was disputing his claim about the productivity of the War on Terror in Iraq based on the numbers he provided as evidence of it's productivity.

How many people fighting against the Terrorists have we lost? How many have they lost? 1 step forward, 3 steps back, is not a positive movement. Sorry, I guess I should say 1 Terrorist captured, 30 Americans dead, isn't schit for progress if you ask me.

You'll notice he didn't answer me. It was a simple question really. I just wanted to understand his numbers, and why it appeared he didn't value the life of an U.S. soldier by not including it in his numbers.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:36 am

avak wrote:The fact remains that the administration is in an abrupt reversal of policy and tactics in Iraq and the war on terror because we are failing.


The fact is that there has been no reversal in policy, force remains in Iraq, and your opinion is based entirely upon nothing.

Unless of course you can tell me that:

* US Forces have withdrawn from the region.
* The United States is actively engaged in diplomatic talks with Al Qaeda.
* We aren't using force and coercion still in the middle east.

You split hairs and argue semantics. Until you can tell me those things, your "abrupt reversal" is as BUNK as your opinion.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:41 am

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:How often is an organized attack on a uniformed military asset an act of terrorism?


So flying a plane into the Pentagon wasn't a terrorist attack?


Did you forget about the plane? You know, the one targeted by the terrorists full of CIVILIANS.

Try harder, Sarvis.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:47 am

Llaaldara wrote:You'll notice he didn't answer me. It was a simple question really. I just wanted to understand his numbers, and why it appeared he didn't value the life of an U.S. soldier by not including it in his numbers.


To clarify for the future, I don't usually answer dumb questions.

Llaaldara wrote:I just wanted to understand his numbers, and why it appeared he didn't value the life of an U.S. soldier by not including it in his numbers.


"Avak, how many people in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?"

0

How many American Soldiers in America were killed from terrorist attacks in the say... last five years?

0
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:How often is an organized attack on a uniformed military asset an act of terrorism?


So flying a plane into the Pentagon wasn't a terrorist attack?


Did you forget about the plane? You know, the one targeted by the terrorists full of CIVILIANS.


By tihs logic we are terrorists every time we accidentally shoot a civilian or accidentally bomb a church. What's the word for it... oh yeah, collateral damage.

The planes weren't the target, they were the weapon. The IED, actually, used to bring down the economic and military targets they were going for. They didn't _accidentally_ hit the pentagon, they were aiming for it. If they just wanted to target the planes they could have crashed anywhere.


Try harder, Sarvis.


There's no point. You are delusional beyond belief.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:42 am

Sarvis wrote:The planes weren't the target, they were the weapon.


You say there's no point,

but you keep talking.

The problem with you, Sarvis, is that you're just wrong on everything.

Tell the civilians in the World Trade Center, a building that has no more to do with the US economy than any other office building, that they were a legitimate wartime target. You can't. You can't because you're still wrong about everything. Tell the civilians on the plane that they weren't pointedly a part of the attack.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:56 am

Llaaldara wrote:1 step forward, 3 steps back, is not a positive movement.


Image
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:12 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The planes weren't the target, they were the weapon.


You say there's no point,

but you keep talking.


That's probably the only good point you ever have or ever will make.


Tell the civilians in the World Trade Center, a building that has no more to do with the US economy than any other office building, that they were a legitimate wartime target. You can't. You can't because you're still wrong about everything.


I don't have to, because I wasn't talking about that at all. You're just making a straw man.

Tell the civilians on the plane that they weren't pointedly a part of the attack.


Tell the civilians praying for peace in a mosque that they weren't pointedly part of the attack when a bomb lands on them.

But you were right on that first point, so shutting up now. Feel free to foist your straw men on the others who are still biting.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:03 am

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Tell the civilians in the World Trade Center, a building that has no more to do with the US economy than any other office building, that they were a legitimate wartime target. You can't. You can't because you're still wrong about everything.


I don't have to, because I wasn't talking about that at all. You're just making a straw man.


Yes you do, they were a part of the same attack that you were talking about. You know, that whole "9/11" thing.

Sarvis wrote:
Tell the civilians on the plane that they weren't pointedly a part of the attack.


Tell the civilians praying for peace in a mosque that they weren't pointedly part of the attack when a bomb lands on them.


Haha. Who's making the straw man now?

There is collateral damage and there is killing civilians to make a political point. Terrorists intentionally kill civilians to send political or religious messages to innocent people.

Tell me, how many mosques has the US bombed in say... the last five years?
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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:55 am

Kifle wrote:
avak wrote:Besides, I highly doubt Teflor is an expert in any of the above, yet seems to always have a fairly authoratative opinion on that subject and um, like every thing else...


Teflor is actually the Jeeves from "Ask Jeeves." He's paid millions of dollars a year to sit at his computer and answer peoples' questions. He's just that smart. I hear he actually holds nine Ph.D.'s and is a 70 star general in the U.S. and British armies. He also conquered asia minor with a sardine can and a piece of bubble gum.


Not bad for a ranger... what flavour gum?
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Postby Vigis » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:17 pm

Dear Teflor,

Please start re-reading the entire thread before attacking the people within it.

I've been staying out of this thread altogether, but your crappy posting techniques have just gotten the better of me. WTG! I'm still not going to argue in this, nor am I going to give my opinion on this war in general.

However,
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Tell the civilians in the World Trade Center, a building that has no more to do with the US economy than any other office building, that they were a legitimate wartime target. You can't. You can't because you're still wrong about everything.


I don't have to, because I wasn't talking about that at all. You're just making a straw man.


Yes you do, they were a part of the same attack that you were talking about. You know, that whole "9/11" thing.


No, he said nothing about the WTC. He said:
teflor the ranger wrote:
How often is an organized attack on a uniformed military asset an act of terrorism?


So flying a plane into the Pentagon wasn't a terrorist attack?


I really don't feel like pulling up all of your BS statements. (I especially like it when Sarvis nailed you with the Pentagon argument and you pointed at the people on the plane). The people on that plane meant no more to the hijackers than you do. If you had access to some high level target and they could set up a bomb in your ass that would detonate when you took a crap, they'd do it and wouldn't give one shit about you. You'd be the weapon, not the target. The plane was the weapon, not the target.

Just do me a favor, try to read the entire argument so you can quit looking like a kitten on catnip trying to attack each and every leaf that blows by.

If you need help understanding it, just ask someone.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:42 pm

Buahahaha NICE!!!!!! Too bad I cant get the kitten image with Tef's face out of my head now!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:54 pm

Vigis wrote:Just do me a favor, try to read the entire argument so you can quit looking like a kitten on catnip trying to attack each and every leaf that blows by.


Vigis, you failed to demonstrate _anywhere_ that I have not fully comprehended someone else's argument because YOU have not understood anything here. You want to attack style? PULL ONE UP AND POINT IT OUT. You can't, because you have nothing.

Please start re-reading the entire thread before attacking the people within it.

Vigis wrote:No, he said nothing about the WTC.


He doesn't have to. The WTC was an integral part of the "9/11" terrorist attack that sought to strike fear into the heart of the American people. Planes and civilians were targted for use as weapons, symbols of American power were attacked. A complete disregard for human life was the trademark, to kill regular people doing regular things - to kill the innocent was the target.

Make no mistake, there was no attempt to keep innocent lives OUT of this attack - killing the innocent was among the primary goals of the 9/11 attacks. If you make any mistake on that, the fool is with you.

Vigis wrote:I really don't feel like pulling up all of your BS statements.


That is because in them, there is NOTHING to support your bogus ideas. You have attacked me on no grounds. You're the leaf in the wind, Vigis.

Vigis wrote:The plane was the weapon, not the target.


"I'm still not going to argue in this" - looks like YOU can't even understand your own posting technique. WTG!

When innocent lives are destroyed at will, without the barest minimum of regard to the sanctity of life, that is a terrorism. The idea that you can be targeted at any time for any reason, despite the fact that you are innocent, and that no quarter will be given to you is the principle of terrorism.

When you can tell me, that thousands of innocent lives weren't utterly and throughly used and degraded to a status below rodents, in order to send a political message and demonstrate that civilians are a just and valid target for death and destruction, then you might have a point.

But you can't make that argument, can you?

Just do me a favor, try to read the entire argument so you can quit looking like a kitten on catnip trying to attack each and every leaf that blows by. "You don't speek good, but I have no examples to point this out" is just fantastic way to start.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:47 pm

Vigis, trust me on this man... just don't bother.

Thanks for the backup though!
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Postby Corth » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:10 am

Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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