Nerox's Tiamat Bidding System! *Revision 1*

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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Nerox's Tiamat Bidding System! *Revision 1*

Postby bawog » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:25 pm

Ok so after I've gathered player input, and thought on how to make this as fair as possible this is what I've come up with. Enjoy.

Points for complete/partial runs.

Complete Run: 100 Points
After top grid: 60 Points
3 Consorts Left: 50 Points
2 Consorts Left: 45 Points
1 Consort Left: 40 Points
Smiting Tiamat: 35 Points

Bid Penalties Version 1.0

Afking without notice: -10 Points (at my discretion will call on random people)
Not coming back from 15minute breaks: -5 points per 2 minuites I have to wait.

Bids and How They Work

First Round bids will result in ALL points revoked even if you have 500 points.
Second Tier win will result in -50 Points.
Third Tier has no bearing on points.
Also after 5 runs with me, I will at my discretion handout one item to a person that has lost 5 consecutive runs in a row.


[/b]Leader Claim Rights

I will at my discretion after 10 leads to Tiamat, may choose to claim 1(one) item in the second round. I may not choose to claim an item but just to have the option too after 100 hours of leading Tiamat as Enchanter should be in order, if you have any problems with this please let me know.
Last edited by bawog on Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:01 pm

So, f' everyone who hasn't gone with you huh? Sounds...grand...
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Postby Birile » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:02 pm

Hey, I thought you said you weren't going to have time to lead much more? *poke*

I have 0 points, I won first round unopposed last run. :)
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Postby Ambar » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:27 pm

Tasan wrote:So, f' everyone who hasn't gone with you huh? Sounds...grand...


thats the way it used to work and noone dared to complain :P
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Postby Malia » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:56 pm

Sounds Great... no one is treated any diffrently then another, you get points based on each run you go on. If you win you start over, and very next run get FULL points again. Only advantage is to those that havent won yet continue to go. I see that as totaly fair.
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:55 pm

Similar to how things used to work in the old days - system works well - agree with the system. /agreement
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:51 pm

I think that the leader should hand out at least one item every Tiamat run. If you don't like it, don't go or lead it yourself.
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Postby bawog » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:53 am

I must say that this is a collective bidding system, I've read over some point systems, and also I've talked to others who use them. I had thought about handouts, but people would bitch moan and complain about "favoritism" So to make it fair, they have to do 5 runs and not win a first round bid. This would be almost 60 hours invested into Tiamat and it would keep them going even if they have lost 2, 3, 4 times in a row, thinking "Hey I get a handout next run" Also I've thought about if there is more than one extreme loser. The collective bid losers will be diced in private with both players dicing 1 100 whoever is the highest wins.

Hey, I thought you said you weren't going to have time to lead much more? *poke*


Yes this is true, but I'm a creature of habit. I always find time to mud, and the occasional Tiamat run will be fun if you ask me!

So, f' everyone who hasn't gone with you huh? Sounds...grand...


If you read the system properly it awards even the first time people to get a full bid. There is no favoritism in this system just the luck of the dice if all are equal. Only ones that will have advantages are the bid losers.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:39 am

bawog wrote:If you read the system properly it awards even the first time people to get a full bid. There is no favoritism in this system just the luck of the dice if all are equal. Only ones that will have advantages are the bid losers.


Right... so anyone that went w/ Yasden/Sarell, but haven't gone with you get screwed by those who have gone with you.

More power to ya!

Personally I just think it's a special instance which requires more out of some people than others and it's stupid to "reward" someone that goes more often than someone who finally gets some time set aside to go.

Yes you give a full bid to them, but you give more to the rogue that afk'd 90% of the last 2 times you led. Yay bidding systems.

Also I was being flippant for the sake of being flippant, so nyah.
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Postby bawog » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:00 pm

Right... so anyone that went w/ Yasden/Sarell, but haven't gone with you get screwed by those who have gone with you.

More power to ya!

Personally I just think it's a special instance which requires more out of some people than others and it's stupid to "reward" someone that goes more often than someone who finally gets some time set aside to go.

Yes you give a full bid to them, but you give more to the rogue that afk'd 90% of the last 2 times you led. Yay bidding systems.

Also I was being flippant for the sake of being flippant, so nyah.


Wow, so young so violent..dang that angry music! Sounds like someone is a little high strung! All joking aside, I cannot get everyone for afking in zone, if I see em going when I say then there won't be a penalty. Also in terms of going with Yasden/Sarell. I've been on 2 or 3 with Sarell and if I'm thinking correctly there is no bidding system, just straight dice with the MVP award?? Yasden had a point system, and I liked his, just wanted to improve on it to where I thought it would be slightly more fair. (No offense to Yasden of course) Bottom line is for me to be honest is if you don't like it don't go, or lead it yourself, and try to make it fair to all involved (bidding wise).

On a side note I've almost got the points tallied and will post shortly.
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:23 pm

Reading through the system, it struck me that expecting someone to go 5 runs without winning before they get some lovin' seems rather harsh. While there are up to 30 people in a Tiamat group and there aren't quite 30 items that load, the chances of someone not winning something _sometime_ within 5 runs is rather slim and extremely unlucky. I would probably rather bash my brains in before going 5 times in order to get something. Maybe consider dropping that requirement to 4 runs? Just a thought...
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Postby Vigis » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:27 pm

Birile,

What he means is 5 runs and no 1st round bid win (if I am reading right).

The only potential problem I could see is somebody bidding circlets every run, then winning a 2nd round bid until the 5th run where they get a handout.

By then though, chances are pretty good that they will have already won whatever 1st round item they threw their bid onto.
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:30 pm

Vigis wrote:Birile,

What he means is 5 runs and no 1st round bid win (if I am reading right).

The only potential problem I could see is somebody bidding circlets every run, then winning a 2nd round bid until the 5th run where they get a handout.

By then though, chances are pretty good that they will have already won whatever 1st round item they threw their bid onto.


I don't think he meant that at all... Nerox, clarify!
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Postby Vigis » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Birile wrote:
Vigis wrote:Birile,

What he means is 5 runs and no 1st round bid win (if I am reading right).

The only potential problem I could see is somebody bidding circlets every run, then winning a 2nd round bid until the 5th run where they get a handout.

By then though, chances are pretty good that they will have already won whatever 1st round item they threw their bid onto.


I don't think he meant that at all... Nerox, clarify!


Yeah, clarify!

Mebbe he meant no 1st or 2nd tier wins, but 3rd tier i sokay to win. Or maybe, just maybe I'm pulling things out of my ass to see how many people will believe it! :)
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:43 pm

This seems so elementary to me, hehe

Go for the full win and bid first tier, lose all points, lose that bid and you get one loss for the 5 trip handout thing
Second round you lose 50 points
Third round lose no points

All folks who lose or dont get anything go into the 5 trip handout thing
If you win a first tier item, your points are at zero .. if you win at all, you do NOT go into the 5 trip loser thing
If you win second round you only lost 50 points
If you win third round you lost no points
You only go into the 5 trip thing if you didnt win ANYTHING

And so on .. 5th trip you MAY get handed an item .. I assume he wont hand everyone an item, if there are more than one "loser" .. maybe the one he thinks did the better job .. and I assume if you dont get handed something and STILL lose, your chances are better next time

Heheh how is this not fair? You go more often your chances are better .. you go once every 6 months your chances arent as good .. why should the casual player get the better chance over a regular loser who needs to *touch* Pidi to see if pidiluck will pass on ..

why would any other leaders run factor in at all?
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:11 pm

Ambar wrote:Heheh how is this not fair? You go more often your chances are better .. you go once every 6 months your chances arent as good .. why should the casual player get the better chance


Why should a rogue who does nothing get more of a bid than an enchanter who's fingers are raw for the next 3 days?

I just made a flippant comment, get over it :p
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:45 pm

Edited to remove

Just not worth it :)

It's a game ..
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Postby Duna » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:56 am

I"m pretty sure he means no wins whatsoever...
and I have known people to go on about 5 or 6 tia trips without winning.
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Postby bawog » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:12 am

Yeah, clarify!

Mebbe he meant no 1st or 2nd tier wins, but 3rd tier i sokay to win. Or maybe, just maybe I'm pulling things out of my ass to see how many people will believe it! :)


Ok to clarify how my handouts will work. Lets do a scenario.

1st bid = Loss
2nd Bid = Loss
3rd = Handout item like arrow, or vials

This will be constituted as a full loss. You can get items such as third tier Tiamat items in 3rd round and it still count as a complete loss. For another instance.

1st bid = loss
2nd Bid= win

This will NOT be constituted as a complete loss because usually there are some really nifty items left after first round!

My handout system is more so for the people that go 5 times get whats at the bottom of the barrel to have a nicer item to show they went to Tiamat. I personally like the idea of handouts, but once again there would be controversy over who received what. Originally before I wrote up the point system I was gonna look at ALL who went to Tiamat then handout where the equipment would help out the most, and they would then toss one of their items down to another person, but *shrug* didn't get that great of feedback.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:10 am

Sounds excellent!

One thing, some people believe it or not are very philanthropic when it comes to collecting items for their prime. If the item they want isn't there, they won't bid the best item that exists available. For example, say someone madly wants valhalla and it doesn't load. They may say, 'Well I'll just bid psi crystal and pick up one of those for my psi.' In which case they would lose their amassed points. That's where Targsky's system took into account tiers of items, however he got them wrong.

Stills, sounds neat.

Just a thing on bidding in general. Counting other peoples' previous runs and what not is a pretty complicated affair. That's why I choose to leave it up to the player base with MVP and up to myself with occasional item handouts. Qualitative > Quantitative in such a complicated environment.

Nerox is adapting a system to runs he has previously led, not that just anyone has led. I applaud his efforts through which he has come up with a bidding system, based on what he saw was needed as a leader; in consultation with his group members.

OMG, I love that 'saw was' is a palindrome... sort of ..
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Postby Yasden » Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:30 pm

If you want a copy of my Access database will the runs I've led (points and who won what for what round, total time attended, etc), hit me up via e-mail, Nerox. yasden - gmail or yasdenvassant - hotmail.

I'm back in school now, but I would like to try again at some point to even go, if not lead. It's been extremely difficult to even find time to sleep (no joke - I slept for 16 hours last Sunday morning) with work, school AND trying to get the house ready for the baby.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:45 pm

While I'm all about handouts and systems other than straight dice, there's no way that your system is going to hold out in the long run. The only 2 long run systems that have ever worked are Lilithelle's Seelie/SPOB, and Toukbid.

You're going to only end up pissing people off with a 5-run system. Lets say someone misses your next run and doesn't have an evil. That means SEVEN runs from now they will get their handout. That's well over a year away. I dunno about you, but I'm not waiting a year to be rewarded.
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Postby bawog » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:46 pm

Bumping thread! Have posted some of the points that I've tallied thus far, and will post more as i dig through my HD for the documents. If I have missed you PM me or mwrite me in game and I'll update my list.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:36 pm

Jacked. Hard.
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Postby Maedor » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:24 pm

You still get a bid every run, jake. You just get a real good shot at what you want after 5. Or we can just do 10man circlet bids, and after 10 runs u win! ..or malat and sarli get more circlets and u still dont! :P

System looks good to me. I like that my losses will mebbe mean soemthing in the end!
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Postby Gormal » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:42 am

No, I said jacked because I didn't make the point list.

Jake: 1000000
Greg's hipshot posts: 0

And I stand by the statement that leader-dependant point systems never work. Lilithelle has far and away set the record for longest running point system with regular leads. How many different point systems have there been for Tiamat/BC ? None hold up in the long run... and the long run is where a point system gains any real value.

Its too bad that leaders can't afford to upset anyone anymore. With the terribly small pbase, you need every body possible; even if they suck and are an asshole.
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Postby Maedor » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:34 pm

Maedor wrote:You still get a bid every run, jake. You just get a real good shot at what you want after 5. Or we can just do 10man circlet bids, and after 10 runs u win! ..or malat and sarli get more circlets and u still dont! :P

System looks good to me. I like that my losses will mebbe mean soemthing in the end!


Same people always win...I should get a bonus for calling the winner of the circlet!
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Postby Duna » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:59 pm

well some of us just get lucky and don't get opposed on our bids :) thanks guys :) I love my manacle and my new crown :P
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Postby Ruxur » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:20 pm

i love you brian, will you have my baby?
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Postby bawog » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:41 pm

i love you brian, will you have my baby?


Only if we name it Brian Jr.! Oh and he build compweters!
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Postby bawog » Sat May 26, 2007 1:18 pm

bumping for the Tiamat trip!
Lonikiple group-says 'i remember this one time at izans, when nerox said tanks west, and kobob ran 2 west, and spanked the group, you guyz remember that?'



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Postby Gormal » Sat May 26, 2007 6:12 pm

I've always been behind the times as far as internet trends and gaming are concerned. Since switching to a guild that uses a DKP system, I'm curious why we've never used one on Toril with all of the crazy point systems floating around.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat May 26, 2007 10:20 pm

And thus we all die.
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Postby Drogga » Mon May 28, 2007 3:29 pm

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Postby Ambar » Mon May 28, 2007 4:52 pm

wow .. he did a great job in my opinion .. he solo chanted tiamat with a *less than optimal* group makeup .. can we say the same? No we cannot .. stuff like this should have been brought up at bidding with the leader, not in a public forum .. as far as I know there was someone penalized for afkness/not paying attention/sleeping/what have you .. and we dont know for sure none of the rest were .. I didnt pay attention to what points were alloted at bidding, it isnt my job nor business ..

but to bring it up after the fact is bad business imho ..
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon May 28, 2007 7:01 pm

Gormal wrote:I've always been behind the times as far as internet trends and gaming are concerned. Since switching to a guild that uses a DKP system, I'm curious why we've never used one on Toril with all of the crazy point systems floating around.


My guess would be the ever changing content of Tiamat groups, and the lack of coherant large guilds on the mud (or any reason to have one).

(no longer responding directly to Gormal from here down)

But the cold, hard fact is that the item is 'rare.' And thus, you are not likely to get it.

Wah.

When the item becomes NOT rare, I'm pretty sure you won't give a damn about it - and that's when you're most likely to come across one.

"But Teflor, I am LEET! I am HARDCORE!"

Then why are you complaining like a noob? (GIVE ME MONIES! I AM POOR!)

"But Teflor, it's not fair unless I get the item because I went twenty bajillion times and bid on the same item and lost every time."

Hmm. Could your purpose in life be to serve as a warning to others? Are you this lucky with everything else? If your bid has no value... how about you just give your bid to someone else? Hmm?

That's what I thought.

"But Teflor, I know this mud better than everyone else! I work harder in the group than anyone else! I deserve it more than anyone else!"

Claim it. Lead it. Hell ask someone who's leading to claim it for you. If other people agree (that you deserve it), they'll probably come along and congratulate you once we're all finished doing what we will with Tiapet.

"But Teflor, you suck. Give me your armor."

Only because your momma and your sisters asked me really nicely for some action. And no.

"But Teflor, I really have gone 20 times with different leaders and I never did win what I was trying to get. That jackass got what I wanted and won't even use it or play the character he got it for. Jackass."

Ok, perhaps that kind of frustration might make you want to leave the mud... It would be sad to see you go, seeing how many times you've helped out for free ( :D ), but:

I'm sorry, but tell me why I should care. There isn't a reason for me to care. No one else cares. Why. Why? WHY. In fact, I don't know why I'm answering this at all. I'll just stop what I'm doing in the middle of what
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
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Postby Drogga » Tue May 29, 2007 4:31 am

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Postby Sarell » Tue May 29, 2007 10:04 am

You didn't kill Tiamat and still got a first round bid? Your a softy Brian! :P
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Postby bawog » Tue May 29, 2007 12:48 pm

Heh, I haven't checked the BBS until today so allow me to explain what had happened in my defense. Said player had fallen asleep as we entered the caves and woke up before we finished the first consort, he missed a total of 4 dragons, and yes I know he fell asleep and I had raised him on MSN to get him back at keys. I figured well ok he was afk for a total of 30 mins at most, but didn't miss any key fights, I'll just allow him to have a full bid. Also in terms of your penalty, you had fallen asleep before the ancients, and did not come back until Tiamat was already dead bud :-) There is a slight difference in the extensive time of 30 mins to 2 hrs. Hence why one had receieved penalties, and the other didn't. All in all it was a good run, and I enjoy leading tiamat and hope to do it again shortly. However the whining that ensues after someone doesn't get what they want is quite redundant.
Lonikiple group-says 'i remember this one time at izans, when nerox said tanks west, and kobob ran 2 west, and spanked the group, you guyz remember that?'



Tiamat shouts 'No, it is you who is fucked!'
Rented
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Postby Rented » Tue May 29, 2007 10:53 pm

can u lead evils again this saturday? =P
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Postby Ragorn » Wed May 30, 2007 1:51 pm

So the original post is gone, but I want to understand this. You fell asleep for two hours, missed Tiamat completely, and then got mad when you didn't get a first round bid?

Err...?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
bawog
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Postby bawog » Thu May 31, 2007 1:03 am

Tho I hate to "flame" someone, its an easy concept, Grylor had fallen asleep before the ancients and woke up AFTER tiamat was dead and I had done first round, I however gave him a second round bid at penalized points. On the other hand as on Saturday another player had nodded off, and woke up 5 minutes after I started and missed a total of 4 young dragons in the shaft. So in conclusion he merely missed a few non important mobs and didn't think a penalty was in order.
Lonikiple group-says 'i remember this one time at izans, when nerox said tanks west, and kobob ran 2 west, and spanked the group, you guyz remember that?'



Tiamat shouts 'No, it is you who is fucked!'
Kegor
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Postby Kegor » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:25 am

Image
bawog
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Postby bawog » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:40 pm

Bumping this thread to show that some things have changed in the bid system added a claiming section please read and understand whats going on with it, if you have any problems or questions please don't hesitate to ask.
Lonikiple group-says 'i remember this one time at izans, when nerox said tanks west, and kobob ran 2 west, and spanked the group, you guyz remember that?'



Tiamat shouts 'No, it is you who is fucked!'
Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:52 pm

Got the point spread still?
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
bawog
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Postby bawog » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:58 pm

http://www.triterium.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=312

The points are posted on the Triterium BBS easier for me to locate it there.
Lonikiple group-says 'i remember this one time at izans, when nerox said tanks west, and kobob ran 2 west, and spanked the group, you guyz remember that?'



Tiamat shouts 'No, it is you who is fucked!'
sok
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Postby sok » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:41 am

so that we are crystal clear. if you win a 2nd round, then you dont get a handout on the 5th round?
sok
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Postby sok » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:42 am

so we are crystal clear. if you win a 2nd rounder, you dont get a handout on the 5th run?
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:37 am

would be great to get to see tiamat at some point
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:19 pm

I don't think Nerox has any restrictions on grouping other than being goodie.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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