Apartment T-1 to wireless router?

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Talona
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Apartment T-1 to wireless router?

Postby Talona » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:56 pm

My building is wired with a T-1 line with free internet provided by the owner. I'm trying to set up my wireless router so I don't have to run cat-5 cable all through the apartment, but it doesn't seem to pick up a new/valid ip. However the connection works fine if I plug the laptop directly into the wall jack.

Anyone able to help?

Thanks,
-T
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Postby amolol » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:10 pm

is it a wireless router or a wireless switch?? you may need to reprogram the router its self what kind of router is it?
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce

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Talona
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Postby Talona » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:15 pm

Netgear WGR614 v3 wireless router. I tried manually adjusting the IP (based on the numbers I get on the broadband connection) through the router settings, but that didn't seem to work. Did the usual repair connection, ipconfig /release/renew etc to no avail.
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Talona
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Postby Talona » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:47 am

Looks like I got it to work. You have to plug the connection from the wall into one of the ethernet ports on the back of the router instead of the the router's WAN input port. Then disable the router DHCP server so that the apartment owned router handles the ip addressing.
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Postby Yasden » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:27 pm

You beat me to it. I was gonna say disable DHCP. A T-1 owned by someone else most definitely will have an addressing scheme already in place, unless it's not powered at that time and you're taking it over as admin...
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:42 pm

Yasden wrote:You beat me to it. I was gonna say disable DHCP. A T-1 owned by someone else most definitely will have an addressing scheme already in place, unless it's not powered at that time and you're taking it over as admin...


But that shouldn't matter. More to the point, the router should get an address from the T-1, and have it's own addressing scheme for the internal network. That's what allows multiple devices to share a single wireless router. With the router's DHCP turned off she won't be able to use other devices... which is fine is she doesn't have any, I guess.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:04 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Yasden wrote:You beat me to it. I was gonna say disable DHCP. A T-1 owned by someone else most definitely will have an addressing scheme already in place, unless it's not powered at that time and you're taking it over as admin...


But that shouldn't matter. More to the point, the router should get an address from the T-1, and have it's own addressing scheme for the internal network. That's what allows multiple devices to share a single wireless router. With the router's DHCP turned off she won't be able to use other devices... which is fine is she doesn't have any, I guess.


All depends on the type of router and where it's plugged in. DHCP should work(assuming the guy with the T1 has a router already) if a regular cat5 is plugged into the uplink port on Talona's router. assuming it has one, otherwise then you'd need a crossover cable plugged into one of the ports on the wireless, and then you should be able to get a dhcp connection regardless to the device.
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Postby Yasden » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:15 pm

The building Talona is in has already got everything hard-wired into the power plant. I'm assuming if the building is rigged with a free T-1, they're going to have an addressing scheme (DHCP and DNS) in place. Your router doesn't need DHCP on if the external T-1 is already using it. In fact, it won't work at all, as was the case here. You can't have two machines functioning as DHCP servers like that and expect them to maintain a single routing table. By turning off DHCP in this situation, the local router will automatically assign private class C addresses within your local domain, i.e. 192.168.*.*. or whatever private range you're using (A/B/C), *because* there's already DHCP available further up the pipeline.

It's also FAR MORE SECURE to disable your DHCP and assign addresses manually on the machine itself so that people driving by can't hack your WEP and get a free dynamic IP. Just an FYI. So your suggestion that other devices are not usable on a wireless by doing so is bollocks. ACLs FTW.
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Postby amolol » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:44 pm

there are programs out there that you can run on a router be it a linux router or something else that will allow you to run a second network within a network. thats the way i have it set up here... my father and myself maintain 4 separate networks within the main network i run/manage 1 he runs/manages 3
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Talona
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Postby Talona » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:12 am

For the record, I am able to connect multiple devices (laptop and desktop) simultaneously. Haven't tried the WiFi on my PDA yet with it, but will when I return from VACATION!

Thanks for your help all.
-T
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Postby Vaprak » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:47 pm

The problem with hooking up your wireless router the way you are is that you are effectively using it merely as a wireless access point instead of a wireless router. Being as you are getting a DHCP address from the appartment's DHCP server and not your router's you are most likely opening up all your devices to anyone else on the appartment network, providing little or no security to your computers. Basically you have nothing acting as a firewall between you and the rest of the tennants in your building.

There are a few possible scenerios that would provide the reason that you weren't able to get an IP address with your router after you hooked your PC directly into the connection, but the best option to resolve this would generally be to use the "MAC Address Clone" function found on most consumer-grade routers and firewalls to duplicate the MAC address of the PC that was getting an IP address. This will cause the appartment building's DHCP server to think that your router is your PC, in effect. Then you should be able to plug your uplink from the appartment's line into your WAN port on your router. If your appartment is currently giving you addresses in the 192.168.1.0/24 subnet change your router's internal DHCP range to be 192.168.5.0/24 for example, just so it's different than the external addressing scheme.

So the scenario of your appartment building already having a DHCP server is really moot point as 85% of all ISPs have a DHCP server, whether cable, DSL, or otherwise. You always want to have yourself blocked off from the outside, uncontrolled network with a firewall.

As an aside, you should also secure your wireless router with wireless encryption. If your router only supports WEP encryption, buy a new router. You should be using at least WPA encryption on your wireless signal, preferably with a strong passphrase (not just a dictionary word). If you add in the MAC address whitelist available in almost all wireless routers in addition to WPA encryption you should be secure enough for all but bank or healthcare industry functions.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:03 pm

Ah-hah! I knew I wasn't crazy!
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Postby Yasden » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:39 pm

*peer*, Yes you are. :P

The original issue was connectivity, not firewall. I addressed the connectivity issue!

What Vaprak said was true about the hardware functioning as merely an access point. However, if you lock down your ports on the router and manually address all of your devices, in a different /24 (or even CIDR /23 for that matter, which is what I would do in this situation). You can only clone the MAC of the PC that is wired directly to the router, anything else will result in further connectivity issues, btw.

BTW Vaprak, 128 bit WPA can be hacked now too, just not as quickly. However, someone sitting outside in a car could do it eventually, they'd just find some moron in the building with a weak password or none at all, as is usually the case in fully 85% of home-based routing setups.

MAC Whitelist = ACL, too, just a consumer-friendly version.

Thanks for clarifying my points I was trying to make, though. :P
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Talona
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Postby Talona » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:11 pm

New developments in the router situation:

Came back after being away for ~10 days and apparently the landlord and seems the server went whacky and they're blaming it on me.

From my landlord:
Your loft is one of 5 that keeps asking our server for an IP address takes it and then asks for another IP, this doesn't stop but goes on forever. They don't believe this is our server having a problem or everyone would be affected and it's only you 5.

They are sort of thinking along the lines of you recently updated your
software and the new upgrade is the problem. You didn't update and that's
the problem or you have some type of virus.


So they disconnected me from the server and told me to figure out what I did wrong and only to connect directly to the wall until I take care of it. I haven't emailed back to tell them what I did yet since I just got back in to town, but I thought I'd run it by you all first.

Thoughts?
Thanks,
-T
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:21 pm

Talona, perhaps other people are piggybacking off of your wireless router, thus it's always asking for new IPs.

Tef
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:13 pm

Yasden wrote:BTW Vaprak, 128 bit WPA can be hacked now too, just not as quickly. However, someone sitting outside in a car could do it eventually, they'd just find some moron in the building with a weak password or none at all, as is usually the case in fully 85% of home-based routing setups.


I agree.

Various pass'phrases' to try:

password
mypassword
thepassword
default
linksys
dlink
network
router
wireless
wirelessrouter
wireless router
motorola
admin
administrator
bestbuy
circuitcity
compusa
staples
officedepot
officemax
geeksquad

whew. that's a lot of passwords to type in.

It's too bad it only took the automated script 0.04 seconds.
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Talona
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Postby Talona » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:15 pm

So how would I remedy that situation, where it the case, Tef?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:18 pm

First, I would download a firmware update for your router. It should be available on the manufacturer's website. Make sure you download the correct one.

Once updated, enter your router's setup utility and encrypt your wireless. Make sure to choose a strong passphrase (one not easily guessed) that has multiple words or maybe some numbers (make it something you won't forget... like "you're ignorant".... yes.. awesome)

This way, only the devices you set up to be on the router will be able to connect to your network. Also, there is one setting you'll want to check to make sure your router isn't repeatedly asking for IP addresses - make sure that damn DHCP server is turned OFF. You may also want to assign a static internal IP for your router.


Anyhoo - unsure of anything else. if you keep having trouble, post your full details (router model, number, any info you have on your internet connection on the outside, blah blah blah)
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:48 am

If it was working and you went away on vacation and it broke its probably because of one of the three following

1. you have a virus or something

2. you have a bad device on your router (nics can go bad and start flooding.. they work but they can still be broken).

3. you have a routing table sharing protocol enabled like rip, eigrp ect that is conflicting with either the main system or maybe another tennant's system...

4. you have a loop. like a cable with both ends plugged into the router or a computer with two connections to the network (like one via wireless and one via wired).


I'd like to know what IP address and subnet mask you are getting from the building's DHCP vs what your router was handing out (or is configured to do even if the dhcp server is not actually enabled...). unless you have an "access point" which is specifically designed to work in teh configuration you describe, you are still dealing with a router and need to take precautions to dumb it down into an access point. personally, I'd go back into plugging it into your WAN port and figuring out why its not working in that configuration so that your "network" is private.

Here is another possibility albeit an unbelievably rare problem.. Network devices have statistically unique hardware level addresses (MAC), however you can still end up with a conflict... especially since most routers can "masquerade" MAC addresses. Having the same "MAC" registered to two different ports is going to cause some strange behavior. Since you couldn't get it to work when setup on the WAN port (which would definitely use the routers "MAC" address) but it does work when plugged into the LAN side (you are using it as a hub basically and wouldn't be using using the routers MAC), you could very well have a conflict with someone else's device. Somewhere in the router configuration you should be able to change your MAC address... actually you might even have it masquerading one of your devices (this is common). I wouldn't bother trying to troubleshoot it from this angle, just change your router's mac/hardware address.
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Postby Talona » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:13 am

Thanks for the info Kiryan. Not that I'm smart enough to use it effectively. I haven't tried to fix it since I got back in fears of screwing it all up again. Going to have someone come check it out and set it up for me that lives in the building and apparently knows what the hell he's doing (I hope).
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:46 am

A firmware update may take care of most of those problems Kiryan indicated (or flush them out). Of course, since this happened to four other people in your building.... were there any bad power problems like brownouts or surges while you were gone?
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