The USSR

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kiryan
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The USSR

Postby kiryan » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:24 pm

The USSR, the socialist republic of the United States! and you thought I was talking about russia?

So heres my complaints in a nutshell.

1. too many laws, where is this so called freedom?
2. taxes, have they ever gone down since the US was formed? when does it stop?
3. services, we need somethings for basic law and order and societal stability, but we keep adding more. Goes hand in hand with 1 and 2.
4. minimum wage. how does raising it do anything other than make more of us minimum wage workers?

heres an interesting point of view from lobster valley (thats a back woods area in Oregon). My dad grew up there, and he asked his dad about 40 years ago, whats so bad about the USSR? His dad proceede to tell him Russia is an evil country, people are paid the same no matter how hard they work, people don't have any freedom and the government puts cameras on all the streets and spies on its people.

Funny what a difference 40 years makes. I blame all government, but mostly democrats.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:37 pm

Was going to respond on your beliefs about minimum wage .. but

you arent worth the effort :)
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Re: The USSR

Postby Sarvis » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:11 pm

kiryan wrote:The USSR, the socialist republic of the United States! and you thought I was talking about russia?

So heres my complaints in a nutshell.

1. too many laws, where is this so called freedom?
2. taxes, have they ever gone down since the US was formed? when does it stop?
3. services, we need somethings for basic law and order and societal stability, but we keep adding more. Goes hand in hand with 1 and 2.
4. minimum wage. how does raising it do anything other than make more of us minimum wage workers?

heres an interesting point of view from lobster valley (thats a back woods area in Oregon). My dad grew up there, and he asked his dad about 40 years ago, whats so bad about the USSR? His dad proceede to tell him Russia is an evil country, people are paid the same no matter how hard they work, people don't have any freedom and the government puts cameras on all the streets and spies on its people.

Funny what a difference 40 years makes. I blame all government, but mostly democrats.


I wonder how many of your grandfather's beliefs about communism were shaped by propaganda?

As for your statements:

1) We have the freedom to choose our lawmakers. We chose people who made these laws. It follows that we chose these laws. Don't like it? Vote for someone else next time, or help out the campaign of someone you do like. Maybe even run yourself!

THAT is the Freedom we have, the Freedom that never existed before.

2) There was a tax cut in 2002...

3) How dare we ensure people are able to live even through hard times! We'd be much better off using "Survival of the Fittest" where fast-talking businessmen make all the money and form their own elite ruling class. Right?

4) Ask the person trying to survive on 5.15/hr while inflation increases the price of food and shelter every year.
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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:23 am

Rofl, and here I was crediting you with a college education in other threads. Nice guy in person, complete tard on the net.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:52 am

You're right Kiryan. Some folks want to extend the welfare state to make more people completely dependent on the government. While we need some services, should we really be crowding out parents giving their kids health insurance now by encouraging them to put their kids on the S-CHIP program?

Kiryan is also right about the minimum wage. It leads to more unemployment for low skilled workers forcing them back on the public welfare system. So Sarvis, how does making someone unemployed, because the minimum wage was raised, help them again?
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:28 am

The minimum wage is pretty disgusting. The very people who are most vulnerable are victimized by it.

Everyone's time is worth a certain amount of money. A doctor might be worth $300 an hour or more.. a gas station attendant, a lot less. So what about the person with no education or skill.. possibly disabled so physical labor is out of the question. If the value of this person's time is less than the minimum wage, he is UNEMPLOYABLE. Nobody will pay you more than your worth. The mimimum wage actually precludes the least fortunate people from holding a job, and withholds from them the financial and moral benefits of employment. The mimimum wage is a DISGRACEFUL law.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:36 am

Right, if I have an extra 24 bucks an hour in my budget, then you have to look at what I can hire. My company's minimum wage is 12.69, alot higher than most states. At 24 bucks an hour budget, I can only bring in two people instead of three if we could pay eight dollars an hour. That third person does not get the job or the experience and training that would go with that opportunity. They have been negatively impacted by our higher minimum wage. Any confusion?
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:42 am

The basic point of the modern leftist movement is to advocate for those who are 'left behind' in free market capitalism. Such people are their constituency. And like any other political movement, the modern leftist movement aims to grow its constituency.

The left tries to 'protect' us by shifting responsibility from individuals to the government. As we lose the right to be accountable for our own life and success or lack thereof, we become STUPID. I need not research what prescription drugs I put into my body.. because the FDA does it for me. I need not volunteer at a soup kitchen to help my fellow man, because the government gives poor people food stamps. I don't need to watch what I eat because even if I get obese and have health problems, I will be guaranteed the best possible health care by my government (not yet but soon anyway). The examples are endless. The more responsibility that government takes upon itself, and the bigger it gets, the less we need to stretch our own brains, and the STUPIDER we get.

So is it any wonder that a lot of these STUPID people get 'left behind'? Of course not. And the more people who get 'left behind', the more the left can justify taking away our freedom.. and the STUPIDER people get. If the modern left has its way, eventually we will have very little freedom, and we will all be very STUPID.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ragorn » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:48 am

Corth wrote:The minimum wage is pretty disgusting... The mimimum wage is a DISGRACEFUL law.

I couldn't agree with you more. The minimum wage is DISGRACEFUL.

We should fucking DOUBLE it.

Untrained, unskilled labor has a price. Unskilled laborers wash dishes, sweep floors, dispose of trash, perform manual labor, man phones and cash registers, and various other low-wage tasks. Regardless of how much rich, white men look down on the people who do these jobs, they still need to get done. You aren't going to get your triple whipped low-calf no sugar frapp if nobody's working the counter.

The fact that the minimum wage doesn't rise with inflation creates a fallacy - that unskilled labor is worth less every year, relative to the dollar. I assure you, tending the fry machine is every bit as necessary in 2007 as it was in 1997, the last time the minimum wage was increased. Yet, the people doing it are being paid less, in terms of real dollars.

The crazy conservative argument is that "business will regulate itself" without a minimum wage, and "companies who don't pay enough won't find workers." Horseshit. This might work, in theory, in a location where job demand and population are at an equilibrium. In that case, workers are paid according to their relative value and skillset. Unfortunately, that case only exists on paper.

What you have in real life is an abundance of workers and a shortage of jobs. The minimum wage job I held was in a college town, working at Gamestop. They could have paid $2.15 an hour, and college kids would have still been banging the door down, because there weren't enough jobs to satisfy the employment force. It is critical then, that the government steps in and puts a floor on wages, or you'll end up with people working full time and still living in poverty. We tried that once, and that's why we have laws regarding employment in the first place.

Now, your average neocon steps in at this point with what he thinks is a great idea. "Why don't we," he says, screwing up his face in thought, "deport all the illegals? That will reduce the supply of workers, eliminating competition for ERR JERBS!!!" That's typical short-sighted conservative thinking, completely forgetting that illegal aliens also consume goods and services, which in turn increases the number of jobs required to satisfy their demand. You move the illegals out, there's less competition for jobs, and there are fewer jobs to be had. Nothing changes, except you've spent a couple billion dollars on deportation.

The only answer is to increase the minimum wage to keep pace with inflation. Corporations who fire off all their unskilled workers when the price of unskilled labor rises will be left up a creek. And companies who think they're going to hire skilled labor for $7.00 an hour will learn a very tough lesson very fast.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:29 am

Everything economics stands for is completely against what you just said Ragorn. If you doubled minimum wage you would be paying $3 for something on the dollar menu currently at a fast food resturaunt, Over 25 cents more per gallon of gas, etc. It all equals out, and by not paying people more for the more non ambitious skills and trades of life, everyone else makes out better. If you don't want to flip burgers for $7 an hour, don't do it. I sure as fuck never did and never will. Just the way shit works. Lower minimum wage is a primer to capitalism as well as a motivator to do better for ones self. If you are stupid enough to do it, or in the right position at the right time to have to, then let it be a good lesson, as it is to millions.

In a perfect economic world, there is no minimum wage, just the bottom dollar of what particular people are willing to work for. As it should be. If you are a mexican immigrant that thinks picking fruit in a field is an awesome job at $4 an hour, I say more power to you. If you don't, then find a better job and force that employer to raise their rates. Granted our minimum wage is about what that bottom dollar would equal out to be for some of the crappy jobs of our society, but its not always the case and more people could make more money off of other peoples stupidity.


As for "communism" (not applicable in any way shape or form in our country, even on welfare levels), I think you are barking up the wrong terminolgy. As for lost freedoms, I think our country is becoming more controled and less free everyday. I also think nobody can argue with that fact because of its apparency. It has been a long known fact that the US houses the highest percentage of its citizens in prisons and jails than any other country in the world by a very large margin. And I think that fact speaks for itself on the matter of insignifant laws being voted in.

My state of residence, Minnesota, just passed a statewide smoking ban in all indoor public areas. I personally believe that the government, or any other person or voting majority legislative body, for that matter, should have no right whatsoever to say what the owner of a public place can allow in their own place. Period. To regulate such things, as many other things beyond this example go, is denying basic freedoms that our country has prided itself on. Even if they are a majority vote. Sad to see a country such as the US so proud of its "freedom" continuously take away such issues that nobody should be able to vote on in the first place. If you don't want to visit that place for any reason at all, don't go there (duh)! States options to casinos come to mind (economics loves casinos), as well as the use and punishment of numerous mild crimes that in my opinion should not be crimes punishable to the extent they are. Which also is the primary reason to the most prisoners in the world fact above, as well as our country not beeing as "free" a country as we idealize it to be.

Will be interesting to see how fucked over the people actually let things get. These people that support smoking bans and other things they don't believe in personally, just support fueling the fires of a continuous effect to deny basic choices to the people in general. This has been going on for many years now, and will continue to. Again, will be interesting to see how far this will go. By the time it has gone too far (imo it has already, but apparently not in the eyes of the "majority"), will we be able to change it?

People need to quit allowing lawmakers the ability to decide basic freedoms. Especially if it's something simple and non-violent, that falls into the personal decision category, and can be decided by simply not participating in, that would include a personal freedom or choice. I swear, americans are as stupid as other countries say they are. Very sad, but very true. We need to get a clue and really regulate the people that regulate us.


P.S. I don't really give a fuck if someone tried to touch/pretended to touch some other guys dick in the bathroom. I wish that guy would have just punched him like any other normal person and not made it a media issue.

This also concludes my response to any politcal type threads I will post on for the remainder of this year.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:53 am

Corth wrote:I need not research what prescription drugs I put into my body.. because the FDA does it for me.


Yes, because I'm certain you have enough medical knowledge to adequately research something like that.

Hell, you're a LAYWER and you can't even give us a definitive answer on the legality of police entering your home without a warrant, but somehow you think you could adequately understand the internal workings of the human body well enough to figure out what a drug might do to you?

You have to face some facts here. The salient one is that the world is far too fucking complex for any individual to understand everything he would need in order to completely protect himself. Even within a specialty, like being a laywer, one can't expect complete competency in every aspect.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:00 am

Lathander wrote:Right, if I have an extra 24 bucks an hour in my budget, then you have to look at what I can hire. My company's minimum wage is 12.69, alot higher than most states. At 24 bucks an hour budget, I can only bring in two people instead of three if we could pay eight dollars an hour. That third person does not get the job or the experience and training that would go with that opportunity. They have been negatively impacted by our higher minimum wage. Any confusion?


Really? You would base your hiring practices on spending all of your available cash rather than on how much work needed to be done?

I, myself, would hire more people <i>when I needed more work done</i> and not a moment sooner. If I've got an extra $24/hr and all the work is getting done, I'm keeping that shit. If all the work is NOT getting done, I'm hiring someone else who can handle the extra workload and therefore handle more customers and <i>gain more money</i>.

Now, the corollary to this is that with people having more money it will get spent. You may see more customers in your store, increasing your amount of sales and necessitating that third hire.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:07 am

My state of residence, Minnesota, just passed a statewide smoking ban in all indoor public areas. I personally believe that the government, or any other person or voting majority legislative body, for that matter, should have no right whatsoever to say what the owner of a public place can allow in their own place. Period. To regulate such things, as many other things beyond this example go, is denying basic freedoms that our country has prided itself on. Even if they are a majority vote. Sad to see a country such as the US so proud of its "freedom" continuously take away such issues <b>that nobody should be able to vote on in the first place.</b> If you don't want to visit that place for any reason at all, don't go there (duh)! States options to casinos come to mind (economics loves casinos), as well as the use and punishment of numerous mild crimes that in my opinion should not be crimes punishable to the extent they are. Which also is the primary reason to the most prisoners in the world fact above, as well as our country not beeing as "free" a country as we idealize it to be.


Yes, in your quest for inconsequential freedoms advocate taking away our most precious freedom: The ability to choose our government.

I suppose you're prefer a dictator?
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:07 am

Jaznolg wrote:In a perfect economic world, there is no minimum wage, just the bottom dollar of what particular people are willing to work for.

And herein lies the problem, you keep talking about a perfect economic world. In theory, you're absolutely right, wages should be proportional to skill and demand. But it's useless to talk about politics if you're going to think about how things would be in a "perfect economic world." Why don't we spend some time discussing reality instead of textbook problems?

As it should be. If you are a mexican immigrant that thinks picking fruit in a field is an awesome job at $4 an hour, I say more power to you.

Nope. It's been determined that you can't live successfully off $4 an hour... we have a thing called a "poverty line." If you're happy that people live beneath the poverty line, choosing to believe that they do so because of their own choices, then I invite you to close the textbook and join the American community.

more people could make more money off of other peoples stupidity.

Ah, I thought the typical conservative argument was that corporations WEREN'T taking advantage of their workers. But no, you're absolutely right. Without a minimum wage, uneducated and unskilled workers would be taken advantage of. That's why we need laws... to keep people like you from doing it.

As for "communism"

I didn't use the word communism, so I'll assume this paragraph isn't directed at me.

My state of residence, Minnesota, just passed a statewide smoking ban in all indoor public areas.

Good! Smoking is an environmental health concern. If you want to smoke in your own home, exposing yourself to the health impact of tobacco, then I support your right to do that. You may not expose me to those same risks without my consent. And I assure you, I do not consent.

If individual bar and restaurant owners will not take my health concerns into consideration when creating their smoking rules, then I will happily vote for government officials who will "help" them make the correct choice.

Edit: I'll spell this out, to be as clear as I can: My health takes priority over your freedoms. In every case I can think of.

Will be interesting to see how fucked over the people actually let things get. These people that support smoking bans and other things they don't believe in personally, just support fueling the fires of a continuous effect to deny basic choices to the people in general.

Nope. My personal beliefs about smoking have nothing to do with it. I choose not to, but I don't care if you do. However, you're not permitted to endanger my health so you can sustain your habit.

By the time it has gone too far (imo it has already, but apparently not in the eyes of the "majority"), will we be able to change it?

Hopefully not. I yearn for a time when I can enjoy public facilities without being subjected to someone else's smoking. If you want to smoke, you should do it in the privacy of your own home, or you should remove yourself to a secluded outdoor area. Don't even get me started on people who choose to smoke immediately outside the doors to a non-smoking building... I believe that should be a ticketable offense.

P.S. I don't really give a fuck if someone tried to touch/pretended to touch some other guys dick in the bathroom. I wish that guy would have just punched him like any other normal person and not made it a media issue.

Wait... what? You mean the Republican Congressman who solicited gay sex in the bathroom? You were told that some man "tried to touch" him? Umm... heh? Seriously?

No dude, he asked a cop for a handjob. Also, he's a Congressman who opposes gay rights, although he is apparantly, himself, a homosexual.
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:14 am

Ragorn,

If you can't understand that simple and basic truth I wrote about minimum wages, then I doubt I can change your mind with any further posts. However, I would just point out that realistically, if we were to double the minimum wage as you suggest, then two things would happen. First, we would pay a lot more for fast food and certain other goods and services. Second, a lot of people who are currently employed would find their jobs going to India and elsewhere. Entire industries really. Receptionists come to mind. Any remaining large scale customer/technical service operations in the US would certainly be gone. Basically, a lot of people with marginal skills would find themselves unable to find any work at all.

Of course, that would end up making more people dependent on government, which drums up votes for democrats. So its kind of the goal I guess.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:23 am

Sarvis wrote:
My state of residence, Minnesota, just passed a statewide smoking ban in all indoor public areas. I personally believe that the government, or any other person or voting majority legislative body, for that matter, should have no right whatsoever to say what the owner of a public place can allow in their own place. Period. To regulate such things, as many other things beyond this example go, is denying basic freedoms that our country has prided itself on. Even if they are a majority vote. Sad to see a country such as the US so proud of its "freedom" continuously take away such issues <b>that nobody should be able to vote on in the first place.</b> If you don't want to visit that place for any reason at all, don't go there (duh)! States options to casinos come to mind (economics loves casinos), as well as the use and punishment of numerous mild crimes that in my opinion should not be crimes punishable to the extent they are. Which also is the primary reason to the most prisoners in the world fact above, as well as our country not beeing as "free" a country as we idealize it to be.


Yes, in your quest for inconsequential freedoms advocate taking away our most precious freedom: The ability to choose our government.

I suppose you're prefer a dictator?


I might. What I am seeing from the american people in the way of what they are writing off as insiginificant personal freedoms, is just unacceptable. It is warming them up to be ruled against on basic personal freedoms that they care about. Such things should not even be discussed. If you don't like something, don't do it. If you don't want to go somewhere, don't go there. For whatever reasons. The people decide such things in the streets. There is no need for legislation for anything that does not contribute to violence or significant personal harm to people that wouldn't ever result in such, except in the case of personal choices made.

What people let get "voted" into law, and what they have allowed, is basically allowing the government to choose things for us that they need not even contemplate. There are lots of examples of this, more and more everyday. It is not only uneccessary, it is not at all condusive to the basic concepts of personal FREEDOM. If you can't see that then you need to check your vision. Think uncle sam jizzed in your eyes and you liked it.
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Re: The USSR

Postby Botef » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:30 am

Sarvis wrote:4) Ask the person trying to survive on 5.15/hr while inflation increases the price of food and shelter every year.


Funny thing here. I've always thought minimum wage hikes to be kinda wack in the scope of things. I live in washington, which raises its minimum wage every year and has quite a high minimum wage (I think 7.15 atm).

I have a friend who's been working at the same establishment for several years. During those years he's received over $3.50 in raises. However, his hourly wage is a misly .67 cents more than a starting minimum wage worker. 10 years of experience and he only nets .67 more an hour then an untrained employee. The employer can't be expected to compensate, he'd be out of business, so instead the employee suffers.

While inflation definitely has its impact, increasing minimum wage undermines the crappy .30 raises people get once every couple of years. IMO if minimum wage is going to be increased every year, that increase should be reflected in other peoples wages as well. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for time-card workers who's wage increases net less than state minimum wage increases. Its like a slap in the face.

In a way its a bit of a trap. My friend workers harder than a minimum wage worker but barely makes more. He's in a lot of senses better off finding another minimum wage job, making a bit less and doing less work, which traps him in the minimum wage income range. His only exit really is a major salary based promotion, or secondary education.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:01 am

Jaznolg wrote:There is no need for legislation for anything that does not contribute to violence or significant personal harm to people that wouldn't ever result in such, except in the case of personal choices made.



I love this. I really do. Every day some Libertarian tells me something like this. There should be no legislation <i>except</i>...

Yeah, EXCEPT. See, that's the thing. The moment you say "except" you have made a moral decision that something is not OK, and this decision is no different than the ones the rest of us have made. We've decided that harming others is bad. It's the EXCEPT that you tack on. For some reason you can only recognize harm as coming from direct and intentional force. If I punch someone it's illegal, but if I give them lung cancer it should be ok? Why? Why is harming someone ok just because it wasn't directed and intentional?

You make the same moral exception as the rest of us.

What people let get "voted" into law, and what they have allowed, is basically allowing the government to choose things for us that they need not even contemplate. There are lots of examples of this, more and more everyday. It is not only uneccessary, it is not at all condusive to the basic concepts of personal FREEDOM. If you can't see that then you need to check your vision. Think uncle sam jizzed in your eyes and you liked it.


Yes, we'd all be better off with a benevolent dictator who'd only probably kill anyone who spoke against him and declared martial law the first time someone exercised a freedom he didn't like.

Look, my point is that we have freedom to get these laws changed. You would give up the freedom to do that.

And you'd question MY concept of freedom?

Do go on.
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Re: The USSR

Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:06 am

Botef wrote:
Sarvis wrote:4) Ask the person trying to survive on 5.15/hr while inflation increases the price of food and shelter every year.


Funny thing here. I've always thought minimum wage hikes to be kinda wack in the scope of things. I live in washington, which raises its minimum wage every year and has quite a high minimum wage (I think 7.15 atm).

I have a friend who's been working at the same establishment for several years. During those years he's received over $3.50 in raises. However, his hourly wage is a misly .67 cents more than a starting minimum wage worker. 10 years of experience and he only nets .67 more an hour then an untrained employee. The employer can't be expected to compensate, he'd be out of business, so instead the employee suffers.

While inflation definitely has its impact, increasing minimum wage undermines the crappy .30 raises people get once every couple of years. IMO if minimum wage is going to be increased every year, that increase should be reflected in other peoples wages as well. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for time-card workers who's wage increases net less than state minimum wage increases. Its like a slap in the face.

In a way its a bit of a trap. My friend workers harder than a minimum wage worker but barely makes more. He's in a lot of senses better off finding another minimum wage job, making a bit less and doing less work, which traps him in the minimum wage income range. His only exit really is a major salary based promotion, or secondary education.


Are your friends raises indexed to inflation? Or is he getting a raise that's lower than inflation "every couple years." If it's the latter, he is losing value for his work completely regardless of minimum wage laws. In fact, over time he will be better off when the minimum wage surpasses what his employer would have given him in wages!

The problem here is not that the minimum wage is going up, it's that the employer is paying your friend less every year (once adjusted for inflation) for the same hard work and increasing experience that should make him <i>more valuable</i>.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:27 am

Sarvis wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:There is no need for legislation for anything that does not contribute to violence or significant personal harm to people that wouldn't ever result in such, except in the case of personal choices made.



For some reason you can only recognize harm as coming from direct and intentional force. If I punch someone it's illegal, but if I give them lung cancer it should be ok? Why? Why is harming someone ok just because it wasn't directed and intentional?

You make the same moral exception as the rest of us.


No. You misunderstand my point completely. If harm is coming (directly or indirectly) from any source that is self chosen, then why do we regulate what people choose for themselves that do not harm other people.

If I gave you lung cancer in a bar, then it was your own choice to be in the place that I gave it to you. Everyone is educated enough to make simple decisions such as this. If they aren't, then they are either too young or to stupid to end up there anyways. There are lots of places you can go to participate in the same activities without these risks by business owners that are supplying to your demand without government regulations.

Sarvis wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:What people let get "voted" into law, and what they have allowed, is basically allowing the government to choose things for us that they need not even contemplate. There are lots of examples of this, more and more everyday. It is not only uneccessary, it is not at all condusive to the basic concepts of personal FREEDOM. If you can't see that then you need to check your vision. Think uncle sam jizzed in your eyes and you liked it.


Yes, we'd all be better off with a benevolent dictator who'd only probably kill anyone who spoke against him and declared martial law the first time someone exercised a freedom he didn't like.

Look, my point is that we have freedom to get these laws changed. You would give up the freedom to do that.

And you'd question MY concept of freedom?

Do go on.


I would question your concept of freedom. You would stand here telling me that it's okay that people are regulated on countless minor issues until it is a tangled web of nonsense that all could have been solved by personal choice in the market place.

Honestly, I can't understand why people think this way, or how this is could possibly be a good direction for our country or our freedoms. It's like suing people for stupidity reasons. People in this country need to take some personal responsiblity and accountability. Rather than trying to stupid proof everything. There is no cure (or excuse) for stupid. Especially in this day and age when every simple fact (and complex one) is easily accessible.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:39 am

Jaznolg wrote:No. You misunderstand my point completely. If harm is coming (directly or indirectly) from any source that is self chosen, then why do we regulate what people choose for themselves that do not harm other people.


Smoking around other people does harm them, yet you advocate that it should be ok to smoke around other people.

If I gave you lung cancer in a bar, then it was your own choice to be in the place that I gave it to you. Everyone is educated enough to make simple decisions such as this. If they aren't, then they are either too young or to stupid to end up there anyways. There are lots of places you can go to participate in the same activities without these risks by business owners that are supplying to your demand without government regulations.


If I took a walk through the bronx one night and got shot, would you want the shooter arrested?

After all, couldn't I have just NOT taken a walk through the Bronx? I can walk anywhere, can't I?


Sarvis wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:What people let get "voted" into law, and what they have allowed, is basically allowing the government to choose things for us that they need not even contemplate. There are lots of examples of this, more and more everyday. It is not only uneccessary, it is not at all condusive to the basic concepts of personal FREEDOM. If you can't see that then you need to check your vision. Think uncle sam jizzed in your eyes and you liked it.


Yes, we'd all be better off with a benevolent dictator who'd only probably kill anyone who spoke against him and declared martial law the first time someone exercised a freedom he didn't like.

Look, my point is that we have freedom to get these laws changed. You would give up the freedom to do that.

And you'd question MY concept of freedom?

Do go on.


I would question your concept of freedom. You would stand here telling me that it's okay that people are regulated on countless minor issues until it is a tangled web of nonsense that all could have been solved by personal choice in the market place.

Honestly, I can't understand why people think this way, or how this is could possibly be a good direction for our country or our freedoms. It's like suing people for stupidity reasons. People in this country need to take some personal responsiblity and accountability. Rather than trying to stupid proof everything. There is no cure (or excuse) for stupid. Especially in this day and age when every simple fact (and complex one) is easily accessible.[/quote]

My point is that you currently have the ability to change those laws. In many cases I agree that these laws should not exist (drug laws are a good example.) But you are advocating <i>the loss of our ability to get these laws changed</i>.

The Founding Fathers did not fight so that you could give someone cancer with cigarrete smoke, they fought so that <i>we could decide the laws that govern us</i>.

You want to give that up so that you can give someone lung cancer because they chose to be in the same public place as you?
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Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:10 am

Sarvis wrote:Smoking around other people does harm them, yet you advocate that it should be ok to smoke around other people.


In a public place, other people have the choice to go and do what they want to do. If you are sitting next to me in a bar while I'm smoking an entire pack of cigarettes and blowing it your face, then you bitch about it after the fact, I hope I did give you lung cancer just for being stupid. The owner of that establishment made the rules. If you don't like it, don't go there. VERY SIMPLE.

Sarvis wrote:My point is that you currently have the ability to change those laws. In many cases I agree that these laws should not exist (drug laws are a good example.) But you are advocating <i>the loss of our ability to get these laws changed</i>.


Wrong again. I am advocating common sense over madness. I, as a minority, have no power to change any of these things I hate. I rely purely on the majority's ability to make good decisions that do not take away from personal freedoms. Which they do not, time and time again. There needs to be lines drawn and new amendments designed to keep this from happening. Make your decisions in the market place for yourself. Don't make them for other people.

Sarvis wrote:The Founding Fathers did not fight so that you could give someone cancer with cigarrete smoke, they fought so that <i>we could decide the laws that govern us</i>.

You want to give that up so that you can give someone lung cancer because they chose to be in the same public place as you?


DO NOT GO TO PLACES WHERE THE ESTABLISHMENT ALLOWS THINGS YOU DO NOT LIKE! HOW FUCKING HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND?

I don't like porn shops. I know that hurts some peoples feelings here. But they creep me out. So I have never given them a cent of my business. This has not hurt them, but it has not helped them, while allowing porn lovers to have their porn. So who frickin' cares?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:31 am

Jaznolg wrote:In a public place, other people have the choice to go and do what they want to do. If you are sitting next to me in a bar while I'm smoking an entire pack of cigarettes and blowing it your face, then you bitch about it after the fact, I hope I did give you lung cancer just for being stupid. The owner of that establishment made the rules. If you don't like it, don't go there. VERY SIMPLE.


Why is this different than getting shot in the Bronx?

Why should my choice of recreational activities be dictated by your habits?

Wrong again. I am advocating common sense over madness. I, as a minority, have no power to change any of these things I hate.


Tell that to Martin Luther King, Jr or Rosa Parks.

Better yet, run for office yourself and repeal the laws you hate so much. Create information and awareness for the public and educate them to your cause.

No, nevermind. Just sit on a BBS and bitch about how "The Man" is keeping you down and we'd be better off with a Dictator who would make doing any of THOSE things illegal.


DO NOT GO TO PLACES WHERE THE ESTABLISHMENT ALLOWS THINGS YOU DO NOT LIKE! HOW FUCKING HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND?


Do not do things that harm other people. How hard is THAT to understand?

I don't like porn shops. I know that hurts some peoples feelings here. But they creep me out. So I have never given them a cent of my business. This has not hurt them, but it has not helped them, while allowing porn lovers to have their porn. So who frickin' cares?


Someone watching porn has no physical effect on you. You are not harmed by someone viewing porn.

See the difference?

Or is it that hard to understand the concept of not wanting people to hurt each other?
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:51 am

Corth wrote:If you can't understand that simple and basic truth I wrote about minimum wages, then I doubt I can change your mind with any further posts. However, I would just point out that realistically, if we were to double the minimum wage as you suggest, then two things would happen. First, we would pay a lot more for fast food and certain other goods and services. Second, a lot of people who are currently employed would find their jobs going to India and elsewhere. Entire industries really. Receptionists come to mind. Any remaining large scale customer/technical service operations in the US would certainly be gone. Basically, a lot of people with marginal skills would find themselves unable to find any work at all.

Corth, do you even have a grasp of what jobs are minimum wage jobs? Customer service and technical support are not minimum wage jobs. Tech support is already being outsourced, and is now being brought back as companies realize the latent costs involved in hiring a bunch of people who don't speak English to deal with their direct customer contact. You can't outsource most minimum wage jobs... it's very hard to run a cash register in Indiana when you live in Bangalore.

Yep, the price of a McDonald's hamburger would go up. Is that... is that supposed to be a convincing argument? You're a lawyer, are you really overly concerned whether a crapburger sells for 69 cents or 99 cents?

Anyway, I guess we'll find out in a couple years here if you're right or wrong. If the economy works the way you say it should, the prices at Wal-Mart should be skyrocketing any day now...
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Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:00 am

We are not getting through to eachother apparently. I think you are harming yourself by chosing to be around my cigarette smoke. You think I am harming you by you chosing to be around my cigarette smoke. If I went to your house or stalked you around town doing it, I would see your point of view, but that is not the case.

As far as the Bronx comments go. If you knew there was a murderer in the Bronx that was in a certain bar that wanted to kill you, would you still go there?

You still have not responded to my statements about business owners deciding the way they want to run their business. Not the way the majority want them to run it.

As far as the porn goes, I was just demonstrating another contriversal business practice of selling or propagating, despite a majority public approval.


I have been seeing things I find ridiculously wrong with our country since I was a kid. At this point I am so apathetic about the whole system. I will just let people design laws for anything they want. I think registering a walking or driving plan to leave your house with the FAA would be a good idea too. Would hate for someone to end up where someone was smoking a cigarette by them, or where someone could be shot. The FAA can help, and we can pay our legislators time and money in taxes to get it done. These things are important.
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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:48 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Corth wrote:If you can't understand that simple and basic truth I wrote about minimum wages, then I doubt I can change your mind with any further posts. However, I would just point out that realistically, if we were to double the minimum wage as you suggest, then two things would happen. First, we would pay a lot more for fast food and certain other goods and services. Second, a lot of people who are currently employed would find their jobs going to India and elsewhere. Entire industries really. Receptionists come to mind. Any remaining large scale customer/technical service operations in the US would certainly be gone. Basically, a lot of people with marginal skills would find themselves unable to find any work at all.

Corth, do you even have a grasp of what jobs are minimum wage jobs? Customer service and technical support are not minimum wage jobs. Tech support is already being outsourced, and is now being brought back as companies realize the latent costs involved in hiring a bunch of people who don't speak English to deal with their direct customer contact. You can't outsource most minimum wage jobs... it's very hard to run a cash register in Indiana when you live in Bangalore.

Yep, the price of a McDonald's hamburger would go up. Is that... is that supposed to be a convincing argument? You're a lawyer, are you really overly concerned whether a crapburger sells for 69 cents or 99 cents?

Anyway, I guess we'll find out in a couple years here if you're right or wrong. If the economy works the way you say it should, the prices at Wal-Mart should be skyrocketing any day now...


Eh, rags. I wouldn't double the minimum wage, because that would cause prices to go up drastically; however, tacking on a dollar or two would improve the economy by your definition (more money = more spending = more jobs). I think it's funny though, how conservitives will cheer for reganomics (the piss on the poor "trickle down"), and the tax cuts given by Bush, but dislike minimum wage laws. I mean, the logic behind the recent tax cuts were what? To put more money into the economy w/o "creating more money" so that more spending would occur -- which would create jobs and boost our economy. Wasn't that it?

Maybe these rich guys are too comfortable with being ahead of inflation while everybody else suffers.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:32 pm

Well, alot of this shows a lack of business experience. In my earlier example of the extra $24 an hour to spend, I would only spend it if it was needed. It is desperately needed. See in my office, I have folks that make $50 to $100 per hour if you take their income and divide by 52 and 40. I am trying to take off operational work that someone who makes twelve bucks an hour can do so they can do more of the work that generates $50 to $100 an hour to get them even higher.

Also, just because there might be a lull in work, you don't just lay people off. Those that are very good at their jobs are not completely replacable. Therefore, you accept the slightly less productivity until you can bring in higher producers for them to work for.

Minimum wage laws do not put extra money in the economy. Most businesses, unlike the goverment, have to operate on a budget. If I have X amount of dollars for a particular type of labor, that's all I have. If that labor is made more expensive, then I have to have less of it. Also, I will tend to "encourage" those that are around at the higher rate to work harder, longer, and put in overtime to get the same amount of work done as if I had more people. One could argue that those with the job are now less happy because they are being made to do more work. Also, the folks that are let go or are not hired clearly are less happy because they have missed an opportunity.

Wages in general have been going up. Where they have not is on the low end. The reason for that is immigration particularly illegal immigration. In the very lowest end, those workers lack just about all skills including the ability to speak proper English. This is probably the one group that we see bucking the demographic shift because of the inflow from Central America. The answer there is to stop the inflow of foreigners that compete with our low end workers, but that is a competely different debate.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:47 pm

The minimum wage law is helping certain areas of the country .. personally I have never had a job that made minimum wage .. but around here in a "resort" area it has remained at about 5.15 per hour .. Raising it to 7.15 sure does suck for company owners but it gives their employees a fighting chance at best

Have many of you tried to support a family these days without your fancy degrees (yes everyone has the RIGHT to go to college but not everyone CAN) .. Ok support your family NOW add health care ... many of you are just starting out raising your families, some of you have toddlers, some of you are now pregnant, some of you have babies .. how will your views change as the years go by .. those of us who have raised children to adult hood can probably shed some light on this matter for you ...

Stop being hypocrites and support those who flip the burgers and clean the toilet so you can smoke in your nasty bar

That guy who did "supersize me" did a story about the minimum wage and found out how hard it is to survive .. not sure if its available for download but i will try to find it later on .. its called "30 days" or something to that effect
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:51 pm

Ragorn wrote:Untrained, unskilled labor has a price. Unskilled laborers wash dishes, sweep floors, dispose of trash, perform manual labor, man phones and cash registers, and various other low-wage tasks. Regardless of how much rich, white men look down on the people who do these jobs, they still need to get done. You aren't going to get your triple whipped low-calf no sugar frapp if nobody's working the counter.


Why the hell are we bringing race (color)/sex into this? There are plenty of every type of person that do that. Heck I've run across a few people who are completely without means of support other than the government who look down at people who work their butts off. I was born and raised in a town where the four primary sources of income were 1) Welfare, 2) A job as a government contractor (obviously most sought out), 3) Potash Mines, 4) farming. Even the farmers had a 'real job' working at one of the other two (not welfare).

Welfare was like a job there because of all the energy expended to figure out all the loopholes to get more money, more food stamps to sell, a better job that paid money under the table to buy the designer clothes, remodel the house etc all tax free. “Oh darn, accidental pregnancy. Head on over to WIC and they'll pay for the WHOLE thing!â€
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm

Ambar wrote:That guy who did "supersize me" did a story about the minimum wage and found out how hard it is to survive .. not sure if its available for download but i will try to find it later on .. its called "30 days" or something to that effect


It's a television series called "30 Days" that used to air of FX (not sure if it still does or not). There's a video clip to the Minimum Wage episode at the bottom. He also did an episode about outsourcing where a guy who was laid off so his company could outsource his position "went to India to get it back". The problem was, in India he wasn't qualified to get his old job back
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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm

Lathander wrote: Most businesses, unlike the goverment, have to operate on a budget.


Lol, were you being serious or just joking? I mean, I'm looking right at our national budget and the deficit that is putting a stranglehold on our economy right now and I'm thinking, "This guy is either an idiot or he's joking."
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:59 pm

Ambar,

Would you agree that it is a bad idea to have a family when one is making minimum wage? I can only imagine the diminished mental capacity required to think that is a good idea.

I will agree with Lilira though that it is alot smarter to have lots of kids if the person profits from it as a welfare queen.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:12 pm

Ragorn wrote:You may not expose me to those same risks without my consent. And I assure you, I do not consent.

Edit: I'll spell this out, to be as clear as I can: My health takes priority over your freedoms. In every case I can think of.


I agree Ragorn. But then you have things like pornography, homosexuality, foul language, etc. to deal with. Johnny might not want his children to see any of those things out in the street because he feels they would damage his children's mental health and well-being. Or does your argument merely deal with physical health? Or were you talking about situations where coming in contact with those things were beyond your control?
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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:12 pm

Lilira wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Untrained, unskilled labor has a price. Unskilled laborers wash dishes, sweep floors, dispose of trash, perform manual labor, man phones and cash registers, and various other low-wage tasks. Regardless of how much rich, white men look down on the people who do these jobs, they still need to get done. You aren't going to get your triple whipped low-calf no sugar frapp if nobody's working the counter.


Why the hell are we bringing race (color)/sex into this? There are plenty of every type of person that do that. Heck I've run across a few people who are completely without means of support other than the government who look down at people who work their butts off. I was born and raised in a town where the four primary sources of income were 1) Welfare, 2) A job as a government contractor (obviously most sought out), 3) Potash Mines, 4) farming. Even the farmers had a 'real job' working at one of the other two (not welfare).

Welfare was like a job there because of all the energy expended to figure out all the loopholes to get more money, more food stamps to sell, a better job that paid money under the table to buy the designer clothes, remodel the house etc all tax free. “Oh darn, accidental pregnancy. Head on over to WIC and they'll pay for the WHOLE thing!â€
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:25 pm

Socialist Spain recently built a new state-of-the-art condominium building in the outskirts of a major city for the gypsy community living there. They had been demanding better homes built, better quality of life, etc. The building was badass, with a nice park on the premises, the works.

When the government workers passed by to do their 6 month checkup and see how the plan had gone, some of the workers had to leave the building due to the horrific conditions and smell coming from some of the rooms and floors. There was graffiti on and inside the building.

...
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:28 pm

Government simply issues more debt which is backed by issuing bonds. That is why we get things like Continuing Resolutions instead of an actual budget. Governemnent budgets work completely different than anyone elses.

How exactly is the deficit "putting a stranglehold on our economy right now"? It sounds real ominous and stuff, but it's actually quite silly.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:37 pm

Lathander wrote:Ambar,

Would you agree that it is a bad idea to have a family when one is making minimum wage?


Didn't I already cover this? Do try to keep up, it's the least you could do considering you never actually contribute anything useful, interesting or sane.
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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:45 pm

I appreciate you response Sarvis, but if you notice, I was talking to Ambar. Thanks for participating though.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:49 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Ragorn wrote:You may not expose me to those same risks without my consent. And I assure you, I do not consent.

Edit: I'll spell this out, to be as clear as I can: My health takes priority over your freedoms. In every case I can think of.


I agree Ragorn. But then you have things like pornography, homosexuality, foul language, etc. to deal with. Johnny might not want his children to see any of those things out in the street because he feels they would damage his children's mental health and well-being. Or does your argument merely deal with physical health? Or were you talking about situations where coming in contact with those things were beyond your control?


Where the hell do you live that people play pornography and have gay sex out in the streets?

It's funny, we have things that people just don't do in public. I don't take my shirt off in public, because I'm sure it would gross people out. I wouldn't practice a sword kata in public because someone might get hurt. A chemist wouldn't stand on the street corner mixing volatile chemicals that could harm others.

Yet many smokers feel completely justified in blowing smoke in other peoples' faces knowing full well it causes various lung diseases just because those people "chose" to be near the smoker.
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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:50 pm

Lathander wrote:Government simply issues more debt which is backed by issuing bonds. That is why we get things like Continuing Resolutions instead of an actual budget. Governemnent budgets work completely different than anyone elses.

How exactly is the deficit "putting a stranglehold on our economy right now"? It sounds real ominous and stuff, but it's actually quite silly.


Eh, I always figured that budget means allocating available resources (monitary usually) while trying not to extend the ratio of spending:recieving. I mean, our government gets revenues (like businesses) for which it spends on things (defense, roads, education, etc.). I'd type more, but I just got a call and I'm going out.
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Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:54 pm

Lathander wrote:I appreciate you response Sarvis, but if you notice, I was talking to Ambar. Thanks for participating though.


So this isn't a public forum? If you want to deal with just Ambar use PMs. That's what they are for. Your an admin, so I'd kinf of expect you to be familiar with the basic features of the system you administrate.

Too much to expect?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:26 pm

Jaznolg wrote:We are not getting through to eachother apparently. I think you are harming yourself by chosing to be around my cigarette smoke. You think I am harming you by you chosing to be around my cigarette smoke. If I went to your house or stalked you around town doing it, I would see your point of view, but that is not the case.


The point is that I now have to work at avoiding you and your smoke. Say my favorite local band is playing in a bar you go to, why should I not get to see them play because of your habit? Why should I risk harm because of your habit?

Frankly, before these smoking laws there were few places I could go and avoid smokers. Restraunts were limited to fast food places like McDonald's, as all others had smoking sections. Why should I have to take dates to McDonald's just to avoid your habit?

Further, at what point does behavior X become "violent and unacceptable?" You had to take walking through the Bronx to an entirely different level to regain any chance at justification. The truth is most cities have laws against using firearms within the city because of things like stray bullets. CSI did an episode on this concept once, where someone was doing target practice in his back hard and missed... hitting someone else in their driveway like half a mile away and killing them. Should that be ok because he was doing something on his own private property? Should the victim simply not have been where she was standing, so as to avoid the shooters habit? Would it be ok if a business owner sold tickets to target practice in his back lot?

See, this is the same logic you use to justify smoking... but somehow I doubt anyone would think it's ok to shoot someone just because they were on private property when they did it. would you? If not, why do you do so for smoking?


As far as the Bronx comments go. If you knew there was a murderer in the Bronx that was in a certain bar that wanted to kill you, would you still go there?


If I had reason, maybe. After all, murder is illegal so I could expect him not to kill me AND the bouncers to prevent a crime in progress so that the bar would not face legal trouble. Making smoking illegal accomplishes the same thing, doesn't it?

You still have not responded to my statements about business owners deciding the way they want to run their business. Not the way the majority want them to run it.


Businesses like to create monopolies, which the majority have decided is bad. Businesses feel no compunction against pouring dangerous chemicals into the ground water, or against manufacturing dangerous products. Hell, aerosols businesses were using for manufacturing, refrigeration and propellants were creating a whole in an important protective layer of our atmosphere, and the majority stepped in and stopped it... leaving that hole shrinking now.

Yes, the public can, has and should step in when a business is endangering people.

As far as the porn goes, I was just demonstrating another contriversal business practice of selling or propagating, despite a majority public approval.


Understood, but there is an important difference in that porn does not cause any measurable harm to people.

I have been seeing things I find ridiculously wrong with our country since I was a kid. At this point I am so apathetic about the whole system. I will just let people design laws for anything they want. I think registering a walking or driving plan to leave your house with the FAA would be a good idea too. Would hate for someone to end up where someone was smoking a cigarette by them, or where someone could be shot. The FAA can help, and we can pay our legislators time and money in taxes to get it done. These things are important.


Your apathy is why there are so many things wrong with society. How many people don't vote? How many people watch Springer instead of C-span? You say the majority shouldn't tell businesses what to do? Well, they aren't. Only 60% of the population voted in 2004, and only half of that actually voted for the current President.

Majority indeed. All because people like you convince themselves that society is too broken for them to do anything about it.

Worse yet, because of your apathy, you want to take away my freedom to change things.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:02 pm

Kifle wrote:And I'm pretty sure rags used "white" because the "white man" is generally the one guilty of that offense. Realistically how many black/latino/other do you see looking down on somebody because of their economics status while ordering a frapaccino? I'm sure you'll quickly see an unbalanced ratio there... don't be so sensitive, honkey.


First off, you'd probably be surprised, and secondly its attitudes like the one displayed above that will pretty much ensure that the screams for equal (and I mean equal dangit not preferential) treatment of all regardless of race/color/creed/sexual orientation yadda yadda yadda, will be ignored. Really I don't care if its meant to be humorous simply because in our world it is too simple to take it as an insult (and no I'm not insulted, merely pointing that out). We're people first, Americans second. There's such a thing as being proud of your family history and culture. I love genealogy. I don't let it define me. I could sit and scream how unfair it is that men and women are paid differently for the same skills.. and yes, this still happens regardless of 'fair wage practices', but I'm already nudging off topic.

I've worked Minimum Wage jobs, and in busting my butt and working hard. I managed to earn more money through performance based raises. Most likely I was fortunate, but has anyone else noticed that more and more work ethics are in the toilet? People call in more frequently or just don't bother to show up, then return whenever they feel like it expecting to still be employed there. It has got to be a nightmare just being an employer! Corporations suck as far as the bottom line is concerned. The problem is, the government forcing an increase in Minimum Wage isn't going to change that unless they also manage somehow to forbid the corporations from raising prices too, basically ordering them to eat into their own profits.

Kifle wrote:Lastly, don't blame the merits of a welfare system because the one currently in place does not work as well as it should. There are flaws in the system, not inherent flaws in the system.


I don't recall blaming the MERITS of A welfare system, merely blaming the ones that have been in place within the current system for YEARS. Welfare began as a 'hand up' not a 'hand out'. Now we have people living on it full time. Back in my 'home town', I know some third generation 'Welfare Queens' as Lathander termed them, who have no intention of ever having to get a job. I am firmly of the opinion that if you draw welfare, SOMETHING should be done to pay it back, even if its walking the streets and scrubbing graffiti off the walls.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:15 pm

Lilira wrote:they also manage somehow to forbid the corporations from raising prices too, basically ordering them to eat into their own profits.


Prices aren't set based on production costs, but on what people are willing to pay.



Lilira wrote:I don't recall blaming the MERITS of A welfare system, merely blaming the ones that have been in place within the current system for YEARS. Welfare began as a 'hand up' not a 'hand out'. Now we have people living on it full time. Back in my 'home town', I know some third generation 'Welfare Queens' as Lathander termed them, who have no intention of ever having to get a job. I am firmly of the opinion that if you draw welfare, SOMETHING should be done to pay it back, even if its walking the streets and scrubbing graffiti off the walls.


Interesting idea.
Last edited by Sarvis on Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Lilira wrote:they also manage somehow to forbid the corporations from raising prices too, basically ordering them to eat into their own profits.


Prices aren't set based on production costs, but on what people are willing to pay.



Kifle wrote:I don't recall blaming the MERITS of A welfare system, merely blaming the ones that have been in place within the current system for YEARS. Welfare began as a 'hand up' not a 'hand out'. Now we have people living on it full time. Back in my 'home town', I know some third generation 'Welfare Queens' as Lathander termed them, who have no intention of ever having to get a job. I am firmly of the opinion that if you draw welfare, SOMETHING should be done to pay it back, even if its walking the streets and scrubbing graffiti off the walls.


Interesting idea.


Actually Sarvis I worked in sales for a company that produced aerospace parts for the government and 80% of the prices were dependent on production costs... also demand and competition. If a company is the only one making it and hold the patent so they can't be duplicated, they can pretty much call the shots on price. Basically said company gouged the crap out of people on the stuff they owned which allowed them to give competitive prices on the stuff they didn't.

Oh and might wanna fix your quote before someone gets annoyed. *grin* I said the above in response to Kifle and he might not want the blame. *wink*
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:09 pm

Lilira wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Lilira wrote:they also manage somehow to forbid the corporations from raising prices too, basically ordering them to eat into their own profits.


Prices aren't set based on production costs, but on what people are willing to pay.



Kifle wrote:I don't recall blaming the MERITS of A welfare system, merely blaming the ones that have been in place within the current system for YEARS. Welfare began as a 'hand up' not a 'hand out'. Now we have people living on it full time. Back in my 'home town', I know some third generation 'Welfare Queens' as Lathander termed them, who have no intention of ever having to get a job. I am firmly of the opinion that if you draw welfare, SOMETHING should be done to pay it back, even if its walking the streets and scrubbing graffiti off the walls.


Interesting idea.


Actually Sarvis I worked in sales for a company that produced aerospace parts for the government and 80% of the prices were dependent on production costs... also demand and competition. If a company is the only one making it and hold the patent so they can't be duplicated, they can pretty much call the shots on price. Basically said company gouged the crap out of people on the stuff they owned which allowed them to give competitive prices on the stuff they didn't.

Oh and might wanna fix your quote before someone gets annoyed. *grin* I said the above in response to Kifle and he might not want the blame. *wink*


Right, and if wages went up 1$/hour would prices go up? If your aerospace company raised their prices and another company didn't, wouldn't the other company gain business while you lost it?

And yes, they gouged on stuff they could... which shows the disassociation between production costs and selling price.

Also, fixed...
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:33 pm

Actually yes prices went up. NM increased their Min Wage while I was living/working there, and that was factored into production costs. Nope didn't loose business. But keep in mind the aerospace industry is pretty niched. It was, unfortunately, the only example I had.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:41 pm

Lilira wrote:Actually yes prices went up. NM increased their Min Wage while I was living/working there, and that was factored into production costs. Nope didn't loose business. But keep in mind the aerospace industry is pretty niched. It was, unfortunately, the only example I had.


Ok, but ask yourself this question: If they could have raised the price as much as they did and not lose business, why didn't they before the minimum wage increase?
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:02 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Lilira wrote:Actually yes prices went up. NM increased their Min Wage while I was living/working there, and that was factored into production costs. Nope didn't loose business. But keep in mind the aerospace industry is pretty niched. It was, unfortunately, the only example I had.


Ok, but ask yourself this question: If they could have raised the price as much as they did and not lose business, why didn't they before the minimum wage increase?


Because there were rules and regs in place to prevent it.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:10 pm

Err... am I confused?

There were rules and regulations set by the government stating how much Aerospace Co.* was allowed to gouge the government by? The amount set by that rule changed when the minimum wage went up?

I'm not sure the minimum wage is the problem here...


*I made the name up so I could have a proper noun, sorry.
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