The USSR

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:17 pm

Ragorn wrote:Corth, do you even have a grasp of what jobs are minimum wage jobs? Customer service and technical support are not minimum wage jobs.


Yes, they are not currently minimum wage jobs. However, what happens when we follow your advice and double the minimum wage? They become jobs that are paid less than the new minimum wage.. so the employer needs to decide either to pay these people more than they otherwise would be willing to work for, or find someone in a different country not subject to wage controls who will do the same work for a lot less.

And hey, once they're out of work and dependent on government, you have a newly minted democrat voter!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:29 pm

Corth wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Corth, do you even have a grasp of what jobs are minimum wage jobs? Customer service and technical support are not minimum wage jobs.


Yes, they are not currently minimum wage jobs. However, what happens when we follow your advice and double the minimum wage? They become jobs that are paid less than the new minimum wage.. so the employer needs to decide either to pay these people more than they otherwise would be willing to work for, or find someone in a different country not subject to wage controls who will do the same work for a lot less.


Why the hyperbole? Are you planning to post your pedantic nitpicking again when we point out no one here is saying to double the minimum wage?

Why is it ok for the value of those helpdesk employees to fall due to inflation, anyway? That's what the minimum wage is counteracting.

If the minimum wage rises above what those helpdesk workers are being paid, they will probably need it by then.

And hey, once they're out of work and dependent on government, you have a newly minted democrat voter!


It's easier to just teach them junk science and brainwash them in church so they vote Republican.
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:01 pm

Sarvis,

Without quoting your obvious mistake, I will point out that Ragorn argued in favor of doubling the minimum wage fairly early in this thread. My post was addressed towards Ragorn.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Lathander » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:30 pm

Sarvis just saw another chance to slice up another coherent post.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:29 pm

Corth wrote:Sarvis,

Without quoting your obvious mistake, I will point out that Ragorn argued in favor of doubling the minimum wage fairly early in this thread. My post was addressed towards Ragorn.


Ok, you got me on that one.

No pithy sign to insult me with?
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:17 pm

Per your request. :)

<img src="http://rathipon.com/pedantic.png">
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:11 pm

Lathander wrote:Ambar,

Would you agree that it is a bad idea to have a family when one is making minimum wage? I can only imagine the diminished mental capacity required to think that is a good idea.

I will agree with Lilira though that it is alot smarter to have lots of kids if the person profits from it as a welfare queen.


The minimum wage has not been raised in how many years? Who else didn't get a raise for that long? Not me our you thats for sure!! We got our inflation raises each year, or if we own our own business, we raised fees to accommodate the raise in the cost of living .. Hehe our government got their fat raises thats for sure! It is always those who have the better incomes that disagree with the minimum wage being raised, or having a minimum wage at all ..

Personally/morally of course I think it is a bad idea to have kids on a lower income, live within your means, HELLO! .. but we can't legally regulate how many kids people do or do not have .. my kids were raised in upper middle income (70-80k after taxes) and it was STILL hard financially, I personally cannot imagine doing it on a lower income .. At the same time I am FOR welfare/unemployment/food stamps/other government programs on a limited basis .. use them to get back on your feet not as a permanent lifestyle .. a limited time frame, and they have to PROVE they are a) trying to better themselves via education 2) actively seeking employment, get TWO jobs if you have to .. come on it is America .. work for your family!.. and I DETEST the earned income credit where my neighbor made 9k all year and got back 4-5k picking up garbage and weed eating for the GOVERNMENT (you know he had free medical and such) .. CRAZY .. I so agree we do not, as a nation have good work ethics .. why work hard when the government will subsidize us, hehe .. and by the way it is our duty as parents to instill this in our kids, work hard for what you have, do not sit back and enjoy the ride

flat tax thanks!
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:14 pm

By the way I am a helpdesk employee who makes double the minimum wage .. entry level, no resume, no experience (other than my electronics background and a very clear understanding of computers (all self taught, no classes))

Thanks, please drive thru
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:02 pm

Ambar wrote: get TWO jobs if you have to .. come on it is America .. work for your family!..

*snip*

I so agree we do not, as a nation have good work ethics .. why work hard when the government will subsidize us, hehe .. and by the way it is our duty as parents to instill this in our kids, work hard for what you have, do not sit back and enjoy the ride


Yes, I'm chopping up posts again. Sue me. :P

Just wanted to address the work ethic thing, and caught the "work two jobs" part on my second read through and figured I'd factor that in.

Anyway, how do you instill work ethic in your kids when you aren't there? This is more of a societal problem than anything else. It's demonstrable that you do not get ahead by working hard, especially to someone like me whose seen every adult he knows work 13+ hour days and have nothing to show for it when compared to a model who works for a couple hours a week.

We focus on greed, on getting ahead and getting as much money as possible. We do this as a society, and we're starting to see the negative side effects of that. Parents who don't need to have two incomes do so in order to get that big McMansion on the hill, leaving their kids to raise themselves in day cares little better than an orphanarium. This leaves families without that level of income having to work 3 jobs and still falling behind, while their raises stagnate and inflation increases along with energy, housing and food costs.

So your daughter sees someone work hard and live in a tiny house, with generic clothing and sees a supermodel getting paid hundreds of dollars to lay on a couch, and all society has taught her is that greed is paramount.

What do you think she's going to do? Work hard? Why?

flat tax thanks!


Oh god no.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:00 pm

get two jobs if you can't make ends meet, lol if you are going to *pick apart a thread* do it wisely .. hehe .. not everyone will NEED to get two jobs .. but those living off government subsidies may think about it ..

if your kids see you work hard to make ends meet (sans education) it may make them see how important an education is .. it may teach them about hard work and respect for the dollar (euro, whatever:P)

I was lucky .. never HAD to work two jobs, my one and my ex's one were fine .. once we separated if i HAD to i would have .. i did have a part timer just before getting out of the navy .. to make a few extra bucks (lol RIGHT i spent it all and MORE) and to see what civilian life/jobs were like (never had one before th navy .. i babysat as a kid for cash for extra things .. and joined the navy just out of high school)

work ethic = not being lazy and feeding off the government
work ethic = not calling in sick because you are tired or have a minor bellyache (being SICK is different)
work ethic = being to work on time, 15 minutes early when needed ..
work ethic = if you are unhappy with your job you find another one prior to quitting this one (wish my kid had that one!)

model? who the hell cares :P not everyone (especially me) is gorgeous enough to do that for a living ... come on be real :P use real life examples .. thanks :)
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:36 pm

I was counting two jobs as within a family, you know. Which you did, even though you were already "making ends meet."

As for seeing your parents working hard teaching them the importance of education... how many of those kids end up doing the same thing? You do tend to see these behaviors repeat across generations, and that is in part because parents have to <i>be there</i> to raise the children and pass on those values.

You may not consider being a model realistic, because it isn't for most of us. Are you sure your daughter is aware of that? (You may have to switch model with singer/actress/trophy wife to find her particular pipe dream, of course.) ;)


Oh, and finding a job before quitting your current one isn't work ethic... that's just being smart!
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Postby Lilira » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:42 pm

I'm a SAHM (for those of you who don't do acronyms, its a Stay At Home Mom). We figured out my paycheck was covering child care, second car payment and luxuries, so buh bye second car, and with me staying home, buh bye child care, oh and buh bye most luxuries like going out to eat. Second kiddo showed up and we were REALLY happy we made that choice.

Yeah, we pull tight, but I'm rewarded with the fact that my husband and I are raising our children with OUR values and not leaving them in the care of others.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:12 pm

ok so its really not like communism at all, i just identify communism with a couple of major ideas and thought id throw communism out there for shock effect.

like jaz, the smoking thing really has me pissed off and i smoke maybe 1 pack every year usually at a bar. i simply don't understand why we can't have public businesses where people are allowed to smoke. if you dont want to breathe smoke, dont go or work there. i feel like i have much much less freedom than i had 10, 15 years ago in a variety of areas.

I have to be tolerant of everyone else's ideas from homosexuality to abortion, but I can't smoke in public anywhere in a lot of states... I don't feel the parity in tolerance. Can we ban gay kisses in public so my kids don't have to be exposed to this moral corruption? Does it hurt gays to not kiss in public out of respect for the people who don't appreciate it? That kinda shit is forced on me and my family every day. public tide turned against smoking so its evil now, im going to be laughing when it turns against something you previously understood as your god given right. maybe abortion.

Most of the laws in place are created by our representatives. The vast majority of laws are never decided by the people except indirectly. Then there are the policies of government agencies which go under even less rigor and have much bigger impacts. So when elections I'm supposed to vote for a change right? Except we get the same old faces / crooks to pick from. In the 2008 presidential election I'm screwed, I'll have to pick between two democrats, clinton or giuliani.

Oregon legislators really piss me off, the people speak over and over again, but they don't listen. The oregon voters voted the sales tax down like 23 years in a row now and its on the ballot every year. Voters capped property tax percentage about 10 years ago, so legislators put in changes that allow them to reappraise property more frequently and make larger delta increases on the tax roll. This last one really chaps my hide... Oregon voters passed a constituional amendment requiring new taxes to pass a super majority... a majority of voters must turn out and a majority of those must approve the law.

SO what does the legislators do? We have a new tobacco tax on the ballot for this year, 81 cent hike, its on the ballot as a constitutional amendment because its easier to pass a constitutional amendment than it is a tax law. and yet year after year we vote these bastards back into office...

ambar, from all the stuff I've read, middle class might start somewhere between 80 and 120k, by no means is upper middle class anywhere close to 80k. i definitely agree with you on work ethic, values, doing what you have to do to support your family.

You state that you work for twice minimum wage. How would you feel if they increased minimum wage to that level and you made the same as someone else did to take out the trash or flip hamburgers? Prices would have either already gone up or would eventually go up such that you would be able to afford what a minimum wage worker can afford today. Is that where you want to be? Minimum wage does not give people a "living wage", it takes money from you and me indirectly by devaluing our work. Just like taxes take my money and subsidize services for other people some of them who haven't done an honest days of work in their entire life.

I've worked a couple of minimum wage jobs in my life. I'd work some of them again because I felt I actually earned my money. The thing about these jobs that struck me was not the pay, but the people. These people are dumb and make terrible choices. They live in squallor not because they don't make enough money, but because they are comfortable with it. You have to want something better enough to get off your ass and do something and these people don't. So if you give them more money, its not going to raise their standard of living. These people don't not go see doctors becaues they can't afford it, they don't go because they are too lazy to do things that are common sense like go see a doctor if you have bloody stool. Ambar surely you've seen this in the military. this is the average american, the average poor person they are talking about.

the whole thing about welfare queens is part of what im getting at with social services. social services are greatly expanded today compared to 20 years ago, im sure compared to 50 years ago. Some of it I think is in the neighborhood of "necessary" others are completely ridiculous.

Expanding coverage to children of famililes making up to 80k is ridiculous. If you make 80k a year, the only reason you can't afford insurance is because you've spent your money unwisely. Other expansions that really irk me are social security disability. Is it just me or are there an incredible # of younger people getting on this program for stupid shit like "alcoholism", "i took too many drugs", "im F*d up emotionally"? I know several people getting SSI disability that absolutely CAN work, but they are comfortable with 900 a month, living in a shithole watching cable all day eating hotdogs and playing lottery.

These people can pick up a shovel and dig a ditch, they can flip a hamburger, they can take the trash out of an office, but they won't make themselves do it for whatever reason. I'd love to report them as frauds, but the government has certified that they meet the criteria for being disabled and unable to work... unless they take a job and work and collect ssi, i dont feel like i have a leg to stand on. I also know a guy who got run over by a 18 wheeler, he actually shouldn't work imo because his back is that screwed up, but until recently he worked 40 hours a week as a computer operator...

but what I'm talking about more than just things like SSI or welfare... What about requiring yearly driving tests for people over 60. Do we really need to retest millions of drivers because 50 people a year get killed by people who probably shouldn't be driving? What about child psycologists at schools, what about english as second language, our government is in the business of increasing services and thereby increasing the size of government and our taxes. we provide too much.

we need to reign in social services. In oregon last year 1/10 people was on state / federal subsidy. I worked for department human services and their mission, evident through various speeches given at a 15 year celebration was to get as many people as possible on services and get as much reimbursemeny from the federal government as possible. I don't really fault them for this, because if people qualify for programs shouldn't they be on it? I mean the person who decided the guideline knew what he was doing and decided it was necessary right? On the other hand, when do we stop? When 2/10 is getting a government check? 4/10? All children? All families with children? 10/10?

corth, i basically agree with everything you said. especially about being more dependent on government and stupid. government needs programs like welfare and ssi because the worst thing you want is a bunch of dumb poor people unhappy about their living situation without any way to improve it other than revolution. I'd almost say the same about the military which is the last chance for a lot of people (not all) to actually become a somewhat useful member of society. btw, do you think that maybe some day if your single and im single maybe we could go out?

Am I really that crazy or stupid? I'm obviously way out there since I'm in the 4.5 percent that actually thought (knew) we'd be in iraq over 10 years, but am i really that crazy or do you folks just disagree?
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Postby avak » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:42 pm

Maybe someone could explain to me how countries that have higher taxes and more government welfare consistently rank higher in Quality of Life and Standard of Living indices.

Maybe someone could also explain how the US has the most expense health care system in the world yet is ranked 37th in quality of care by the World Health Organization.

And finally, maybe someone could explain the undeniable effects of giving returning servicemen billions of dollars of 'welfare' money after WWII. The stat I heard around the debut of The War documentary was $40 billion in welfare resulted in $350 billion in GDP.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:47 pm

kiryan wrote:ok so its really not like communism at all, i just identify communism with a couple of major ideas and thought id throw communism out there for shock effect.

like jaz, the smoking thing really has me pissed off and i smoke maybe 1 pack every year usually at a bar. i simply don't understand why we can't have public businesses where people are allowed to smoke. if you dont want to breathe smoke, dont go or work there. i feel like i have much much less freedom than i had 10, 15 years ago in a variety of areas.


I simply don't understand why standing outside so you don't give someone a fatal disease is so hard.

I have to be tolerant of everyone else's ideas from homosexuality to abortion, but I can't smoke in public anywhere in a lot of states... I don't feel the parity in tolerance. Can we ban gay kisses in public so my kids don't have to be exposed to this moral corruption?


If you show any scientific evidence that seeing two men kiss damages your children, you'll have a case.

In the meantime this is a pretty good example, isn't it? Kissing in public is allowed, and you think it harms your children. How many places can you take your children to avoid seeing this? A lot? A few? What if gay kissing were as popular as smoking, could you live with not taking your children outside for fear of two men walking down the street?

You simply have to accept that your actions affect others, and if your actions cause harm to people it is entirely reasonable that laws restrict them.

It's so very easy to tell someone to just stay out of the bar, but any good bar would allow smoking. You're telling people to avoid the primary social gatherings in our society, all to avoid the inconvenience of 5 minutes outside.

You'll forgive me if I don't have any sympathy.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:12 am

kiryan wrote:In the 2008 presidential election I'm screwed, I'll have to pick between two democrats, clinton or giuliani.

Am I really that crazy or stupid? I'm obviously way out there since I'm in the 4.5 percent that actually thought (knew) we'd be in iraq over 10 years, but am i really that crazy or do you folks just disagree?


Lol, giuliani changed his name to 9/11 a few years ago.

Anyway, some of what you say does make sense, and I'll agree to a point. I have no love for the shitholes that soak up my taxes only to sit around all day watching days of our lives and beating their welfare children. I didn't condone that with any of what I said; however, I don't think comparing our social services to that of Stalinist Russia is fair either.

At some point you will have to admit that there are people who need these services (like your truck wreck example). That man should have been on disability pay -- or should he have? He did work those 40hr weeks in spite of his back problems, didn't he? So he was able to work, does that mean that he should work? These aren't questions I can answer with any certainty, and neither can anybody else on this board. It is entirely determined by individual ethical standards and how far we should push somebody to become a "use" to society. To me, I equate instances such as that man with when my parents are too old to work. I will take care of them -- not because of any monitary or social incentive, but because of the desire to help those in true need. And as with my parents, I would do the same for my neighbor, and I would hope that my neighbor would do the same for me.

Shit... if you were paralized from the neck down, where would your family be? SOL more than likely. I'm not too sure on Vena's education level (and I am only half sure you've had a kid recently -- could be just marriage), but I'm assuming you're the bread winner in the household. Wouldn't you want your neighbors, at least through social services, help keep you guys on your feet until she could support the family without your income? She'd need time to go to college (again, that is depending). This goes for really any family where one person brings in the majority of the income such as lilira's family.

Basically, I don't want a damn handout, and neither do the people these sevices are intended for. I'd feel ashamed every time I'd have to turn in a food stamp. All I'm saying is, don't blame the system, blame the asses who 1) created poorly devised criteria and 2) those who milk the system. Don't work towards the abolition of the services, work towards making them better.

I don't look down on republicans because they are republican. I don't look down on you here that dislike minimum wage laws. I understand you guys have worked hard for the shit you've got now, and I understand how frustrating it is seeing all that hard work seem meaningless because some ass is reaping the benefits of your labor. I understand your theories on minimum wage, and, yes, they are, most likely, the outcomes of such an increase, but that in no way means that those outcomes are fair to society. It doesn't mean that the cost of living should go up with inflation AND minimum wage increase... wages should increase with inflation. When inflation raises to a level where a portion of your country can no longer survive on wages they used to be able to, there needs to be either a wage increase, or there needs to be services in place to protect those families to where they can better themselves to the point where they can survive once again.

So, no, I don't think you're evil or crazy... I think you're jaded and misguided at times.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:23 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:ok so its really not like communism at all, i just identify communism with a couple of major ideas and thought id throw communism out there for shock effect.

like jaz, the smoking thing really has me pissed off and i smoke maybe 1 pack every year usually at a bar. i simply don't understand why we can't have public businesses where people are allowed to smoke. if you dont want to breathe smoke, dont go or work there. i feel like i have much much less freedom than i had 10, 15 years ago in a variety of areas.


I simply don't understand why standing outside so you don't give someone a fatal disease is so hard.


Ride a bike to work and never step foot in a pollution mobile again. It's that easy. Move closer to your job. I'm going to just guess, but you probably eat fast food (kills you faster than home cooked), you drive a car (easily loads your "breathing air" with more pollution in one day than my smoking does in a year), and use a microwave. All of those things have been linked to cancer and other fatal diseases. Why invade upon somebody else's lifestyle when yours is even more fatal than everything they do that effects you combined?

Even if you are going to counter with the car example with "but I'm not driving right next to to you!" Well, what about when I'm walking through a parking lot. What about when I'm walking through a paking garage? When I cross the street? When you're warming your car up outside during the winter and the fumes invade my "air space?" I mean, you can go ahead and research the amount of carcinogens I ingest due to cars weighted against how much you do with my cigarettes and we'll see who's really killing who.

It is so bad I can't even fucking smoke on CAMPUS! The entire fucking campus. And, get this... I can't even smoke in some of the parking lots. What the fuck is up with that? I swear. You can't even prove that second hand smoke in restaurants even raises your risk of fucking cancer in the first place.
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Postby Lathander » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:05 am

Avak,

In regard to your post about indicies on quality of life, they are simply formulas created to give the result that is desired. If you underweight advanced medical procedures and overweight "affordability", you get something that is biased toward people not having to pay for their health care individually. That pretty much answers the second question as well. The 37th ranking does not make sense from the standpoint of having the most advanced health care system in the world. Once again, it is how much weight you put on "access" and "affordability".

As to the third question about "welfare" for the servicemen, you do not really provide what you talking about? Can you give more specifics on what this "welfare" was? The real driver of growth was also that you had industry already running pretty hard, and when the soldiers came back, it provided more capacity to produce. Also, the war resulted in huge technology gains which I'm sure helped as well. Finally, you had a ton of pent up demand from wartime austerity which was just waiting to buy the consumer revolution that followed.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:11 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:ok so its really not like communism at all, i just identify communism with a couple of major ideas and thought id throw communism out there for shock effect.

like jaz, the smoking thing really has me pissed off and i smoke maybe 1 pack every year usually at a bar. i simply don't understand why we can't have public businesses where people are allowed to smoke. if you dont want to breathe smoke, dont go or work there. i feel like i have much much less freedom than i had 10, 15 years ago in a variety of areas.


I simply don't understand why standing outside so you don't give someone a fatal disease is so hard.


Ride a bike to work and never step foot in a pollution mobile again. It's that easy. Move closer to your job. I'm going to just guess, but you probably eat fast food (kills you faster than home cooked), you drive a car (easily loads your "breathing air" with more pollution in one day than my smoking does in a year), and use a microwave. All of those things have been linked to cancer and other fatal diseases. Why invade upon somebody else's lifestyle when yours is even more fatal than everything they do that effects you combined?

Even if you are going to counter with the car example with "but I'm not driving right next to to you!" Well, what about when I'm walking through a parking lot. What about when I'm walking through a paking garage? When I cross the street? When you're warming your car up outside during the winter and the fumes invade my "air space?" I mean, you can go ahead and research the amount of carcinogens I ingest due to cars weighted against how much you do with my cigarettes and we'll see who's really killing who.

It is so bad I can't even fucking smoke on CAMPUS! The entire fucking campus. And, get this... I can't even smoke in some of the parking lots. What the fuck is up with that? I swear. You can't even prove that second hand smoke in restaurants even raises your risk of fucking cancer in the first place.


Does anyone else see the humor here?

1) You don't run cars indoors for this very reason, why should cigarettes be any different?

2) I'm one of the ones calling for cleaner burning fuels and stricter emissions laws, while I'm almost certain you would argue against them.

You're right though, a lot of the things you argue for are a hazard to our health. Maybe you're on the wrong track, then?

Your campus is over the line though, other than a possible restriction on distance to a doorway there is no excuse for banning smoking outdoors on campus.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:34 am

70% of the economy is consumer spending. So basically the more money you give to poor people, the more they spend because they have to they are poor. This spending leads to more jobs which pays more poor people who spend more. I think the statistic is that every dollar you spend gets respent 7 times until it gets to someone who actually saves / invests.

--

condensed for brevity

if i got paralyzed from the neck down, our "quality of life" would go down, but vena and i could get by with our 5 kids on $12 an hour even without the investments I made years ago or social services or bankruptcy.

$12 an hour, 40 hours a week is about $1700 a month figuring in 15% taxes. We could get rent and food and meet our basic needs on that if we made the right choices. We would eat hot dogs and macaroni and cheese instead of steak and shrimp, and live in a small apartment in not the nicest part of town without internet, cell phones or cable, but we would definitely get by without government subsidies.

That is even f I didn't get some sort of long term or social security disability or find some sort of job I could do and vena didn't manage to get market value for her labor which is probably closer to $18-20 an hour and or work over time.

Do I need government yes. I count on the government to make sure Laurel doesn't get fired so they don't have to cover my medical bills, to prevent insurance companies from ditching our policy, to provide for our general physical safety with police and fire, to keep society relatively stable such that Laurel has a job. I don't need government to give me money, because I've prepared for the future by not living beyond my means.

We need some government, the question is how much. I think its already too big in most areas, although some areas probably should get bigger. What I don't need is them installing cameras at traffic lights, having more school administrators than educators, and bailing out stock and housing investors.
Last edited by kiryan on Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:04 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:ok so its really not like communism at all, i just identify communism with a couple of major ideas and thought id throw communism out there for shock effect.

like jaz, the smoking thing really has me pissed off and i smoke maybe 1 pack every year usually at a bar. i simply don't understand why we can't have public businesses where people are allowed to smoke. if you dont want to breathe smoke, dont go or work there. i feel like i have much much less freedom than i had 10, 15 years ago in a variety of areas.


I simply don't understand why standing outside so you don't give someone a fatal disease is so hard.


Ride a bike to work and never step foot in a pollution mobile again. It's that easy. Move closer to your job. I'm going to just guess, but you probably eat fast food (kills you faster than home cooked), you drive a car (easily loads your "breathing air" with more pollution in one day than my smoking does in a year), and use a microwave. All of those things have been linked to cancer and other fatal diseases. Why invade upon somebody else's lifestyle when yours is even more fatal than everything they do that effects you combined?

Even if you are going to counter with the car example with "but I'm not driving right next to to you!" Well, what about when I'm walking through a parking lot. What about when I'm walking through a paking garage? When I cross the street? When you're warming your car up outside during the winter and the fumes invade my "air space?" I mean, you can go ahead and research the amount of carcinogens I ingest due to cars weighted against how much you do with my cigarettes and we'll see who's really killing who.

It is so bad I can't even fucking smoke on CAMPUS! The entire fucking campus. And, get this... I can't even smoke in some of the parking lots. What the fuck is up with that? I swear. You can't even prove that second hand smoke in restaurants even raises your risk of fucking cancer in the first place.


Does anyone else see the humor here?

1) You don't run cars indoors for this very reason, why should cigarettes be any different?

2) I'm one of the ones calling for cleaner burning fuels and stricter emissions laws, while I'm almost certain you would argue against them.

You're right though, a lot of the things you argue for are a hazard to our health. Maybe you're on the wrong track, then?

Your campus is over the line though, other than a possible restriction on distance to a doorway there is no excuse for banning smoking outdoors on campus.


Indoor parking garages. Restaurants use microwaves. Gas stoves release more formaldehyde than cigarettes. Will you refuse to eat at a restaurant that uses gas over electric stoves? Do you complain about microwave radiation from microwave ovens? Which is more desasterous to your health, the time spent around all these other cancer causing entities or the time spent inhaling second-hand smoke? Wouldn't it be wiser for society, if their aim was to restrict cancer causing items, to go after the larger ones first? Should we demolish all indoor parking garages because I don't want to walk through them for fear of your exhaust? Oh, what, don't park in them? There are other parking areas? You see the point?

As to cleaner burning fuels, um, lol? This is why you shouldn't assume. I'm a very strong advocate for a cleaner environment; however, I think it is entirely hypocritical for one to attack smokers in PRIVATELY owned establishments. Want to ban smoking in enclosed public areas? Fine with me, but the government, by definition, does not own my favorite place to play pool. People are not forced to go in there. In fact, you have to be 21 to go there. Can these people that dislike my smoke not use their freedoms to not go to this place? Look at it this way. Before, there were places you could go to enjoy a pancake w/o having to deal with smokers. There was, don't BS me. I went to many of them. There are family owned poolhalls. As for bars. You're fucking drinking alcohol and killing yourself and your liver, don't even bring that into the argument. You had places to go; you had choices. The way it is now, smokers have NO choice. So basically, all of the non-smokers that have a problem with this (which does not include all non-smokers) are telling me their limited right to choice is more of a limitation on their freedoms than completely stripping me of a choice? Give me a fucking break.
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Postby avak » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:30 am

Lathander wrote:Avak,

In regard to your post about indicies on quality of life, they are simply formulas created to give the result that is desired.


That's fine. Just show me an index that illustrates a drastically different result (by an even remotely legitimate organization) and I will concede the point.

Lathander wrote:As to the third question about "welfare" for the servicemen, you do not really provide what you talking about? Can you give more specifics on what this "welfare" was? The real driver of growth was also that you had industry already running pretty hard, and when the soldiers came back, it provided more capacity to produce. Also, the war resulted in huge technology gains which I'm sure helped as well. Finally, you had a ton of pent up demand from wartime austerity which was just waiting to buy the consumer revolution that followed.


First and foremost, the GI Bill paid your -entire- tuition, no matter what institution you chose. Then there was the 52/20 clause that provided $20 a week for a year while looking for work. And it also provided very favorable home loan terms, among other things.

Interestingly enough, the impetus for the GI Bill was a fear of economic lapse after the war specifically because general industrial production was going to drop way off with no war machine to supply.

Thanks for responding, Lath. I'm just trying to point out that social programs can often be directly beneficial to individuals and simultaneously beneficial to the entire society. I'm all for pragmatic governing that takes cues from the free market economy, but this idea that we are an over-regulated country that needs to do away with all but the most basic structure is kind of silly.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:41 am

Microwaves ovens? <a href="http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=8774">No</a>.

Indoor parking garages? Not literally existant, as they are never fully enclosed due to the fact that built up car exhaust would kill anyone in there. (Also, frequently in areas where they are used there AREN'T other places to park, that's why they were built!)

I'll give you the stoves, IF you can provide us with an alternative to eating and explain why you should be allowed to make matters worse.


Of course that last bit is kind of a salient point isn't it? We're all going to die sometime, but why should you get to shorten my life at all? What is the difference between causing cancer in someone and shooting them besides the speed at which they die?

But hey, feel free to rant on about how your rights are being trampled by being asked to step outside for 5 minutes.

By the way, you say we're choosing to breathe your smoke because we chose to be in the same space? any chance you ever gave people the common courtesy of asking them first? Every smoker I know asks if they can smoke before getting in my car... yet I've never seen one ask the people in a crowded room, be it in a public bar, movie theatre or private party.

Funny, that. It's like you KNOW it's bad for those around you but decide that a nameless, faceless crowd is just that. Why don't they count?
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:08 am

I read once in Los Angeles, you will have permanent "lung damage" by the time you're 18 because of the smog. And thats not even the dirtiest city in the world. Theres what 18-20 million people who live and work there every day?

whats the statistics on smog? % wise created by cars? Maybe everyone should stop driving cars since it contributes to a variety of health concerns from smog to global warming.

I get that people dont like smoking. I understand that it has some health effects for non smokers as well as definite effects for smokers. And while, I think smokers should have respect for those that don't smoke, our society has taken it too far. Maybe its payback for all those aholes who drop their cigarette butts and intentionally blow smoke in your path just to be dicks, but to make it illegal to have smoking in any place of business is ridiculous. You should be able to legally have a bar or restaurant or night club where you can drink and smoke with other people who like to drink and smoke and sadly in many cities, states and counties you can not. I just wish there were enough smokers to vote these bastards out of office.

ya'll better hope drinking alcohol remains popular.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:29 am

Again, Kiryan... do you think it should be legal to run a car indoors? How about running a lawnmower engine in a bar for a couple hours?

You know, frankly I imagine a very similar discussion happening when society started making duels illegal. Can you imagine being a renaissance man ready to kill the guy who besmirched your honor only to hear that duelling was made illegal? Trampling on your rights, isn't it? Both willing participants, and so what about stray bullets during gun duels right?

Yet these days I doubt many would argue that allowing such violent behavior is a good thing... wonder why?

You know what though, given the sheer number of people I know that smoke I bet you DO have the numbers to get these laws changed. Too bad so many think like Jaznolg who would rather give up our most important freedoms than spend five minutes standing outside so they don't hurt someone else.

Yes, though... you're right. We should stop driving gas powered cars and come up with something that doesn't pollute our atmosphere so badly.
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:23 am

Regulating smoking in restaurants and bars is another example of government going beyond the scope of its rightful authority. These are not government buildings. These establishments are privately owned and operated. If you do not want to breath smoke while at my bar, go to some other bar that doesn't allow smoking. Simple enough. If there is enough demand for non-smoking bars, there will be plenty of them. The free market.. you know.. people like to make money...

Another example of government exceeding its rightful authority are seatbelt laws. I am an adult human being. I understand the risks of not wearing a seatbelt. Unless I'm ejected from my vehicle onto a bunch of schoolchildren or something, I think its safe to say that my stupidity in not wearing a seatbelt harms nobody but myself. So why exactly am I getting fined for not wearing one? Now, if the government had to pay my hospital bill, the argument would make a lot more sense. If we get socialized medicine then we can revisit the issue. For the time being though, nobody pays for my mistakes but myself and the insurance company from whom I buy my no-fault policy.

Final example of government going too far are drug laws. Again, I am an adult human being. What moral authority does the government have to say that I cannot ingest/snort/inject myself with whatever the hell I choose to? If I want to shoot up Heroin, then its my own bad. Quite frankly, most illegal narcotics are not any worse than alcohol. Moreover, what about potentially lifesaving drugs that are not yet FDA approved? If I was a terminally ill cancer patient and I was denied potentially life extending/saving treatment because the buearocrats at the FDA haven't yet examined whther the drug might have some side effects, I would be really pissed.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:52 am

Sarvis wrote:Microwaves ovens? <a href="http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=8774">No</a>.

Indoor parking garages? Not literally existant, as they are never fully enclosed due to the fact that built up car exhaust would kill anyone in there. (Also, frequently in areas where they are used there AREN'T other places to park, that's why they were built!)

I'll give you the stoves, IF you can provide us with an alternative to eating and explain why you should be allowed to make matters worse.


Of course that last bit is kind of a salient point isn't it? We're all going to die sometime, but why should you get to shorten my life at all? What is the difference between causing cancer in someone and shooting them besides the speed at which they die?

But hey, feel free to rant on about how your rights are being trampled by being asked to step outside for 5 minutes.

By the way, you say we're choosing to breathe your smoke because we chose to be in the same space? any chance you ever gave people the common courtesy of asking them first? Every smoker I know asks if they can smoke before getting in my car... yet I've never seen one ask the people in a crowded room, be it in a public bar, movie theatre or private party.

Funny, that. It's like you KNOW it's bad for those around you but decide that a nameless, faceless crowd is just that. Why don't they count?


Have you ever been to a major city? Hell, in Chicago, many of the parking garages are very enclosed except for open stairwells and a few vent shafts here and there. Visit the Field Museum next time you're in town and tell me that parking garage is not enclosed. Even the open air garages (the ones without basement levels) can retain exhaust fumes for a while; I have to smell them every time I go to campus. As to your "that's why they're built" argument... well, that's why there are smoking sections. Even in my city you can't even smoke in enclosed smoking sections anymore. Why? Beats the shit out of me. Added to that, there is this thing called public transportation, trains, etc. You show me a need for that many cars in the city, I'll literally punch myself in the face.

Ovens: Electric. Problem solved. Outlaw gas ovens in restaurants. I don't want to get cancer... waah!

And seriously. Why should I be able to shorten your life? I wasn't aware that I was literally forcing you to go into these establishments that used to allow smoking. I wish I had realized this power earlier. You had a choice, now I have none.

But, hey. You can rant on about how your rights are being trampled by being asked to find a non-smoking restaurant.

Also, yes, I do ask... when I'm in other peoples' cars. You know why? Because that is their private property, not mine. Do I ask them in my car? No, because they know I smoke and if they want, we could have wasted their gas to get to where we were going. This is exactly why we don't ask people in the room at a bar if we can smoke -- because it isn't their bar. The owners of these establishments tell me I can smoke; therefore, I will smoke. If the owners of these establishments didn't want me to smoke (like the mall, department stores, doctor's offices, etc.) I don't smoke. However, you're taking not only the rights of these owners in regards to their private property, but also the rights of the people wanting to go to these establishments. Selfish non-smokers.

Oh, and while we're at it. Can you find me an actual study not done by a reputable non-U.S. agency that has found a provable correlation between second-hand smoke and cancer? Because I'm almost positive you're under the assumption that the EPA's results were in any way actual science.

Here, here's one that did a comprehensive 37yr study of flight attendants done at Johns Hopkins. http://www.data-yard.net/39/cabin.pdf

I thought this one was kind of interesting http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7232/417

This was pretty awesome
http://www.forces.org/evidence/epafraud/etsfrau.htm

And, finally, the coup de grace from the WHO

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/who.html

Don't worry about it being from a third party site, the study and all related materials are sited at the bottom. I especially find the part about children to be stunning.

But, hey, lets just keep citing the study done by the EPA in which they have been found to fudge the facts.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:03 pm

Corth wrote:Another example of government exceeding its rightful authority are seatbelt laws. I am an adult human being. I understand the risks of not wearing a seatbelt. Unless I'm ejected from my vehicle onto a bunch of schoolchildren or something, I think its safe to say that my stupidity in not wearing a seatbelt harms nobody but myself. So why exactly am I getting fined for not wearing one? Now, if the government had to pay my hospital bill, the argument would make a lot more sense. If we get socialized medicine then we can revisit the issue. For the time being though, nobody pays for my mistakes but myself and the insurance company from whom I buy my no-fault policy.


And your stance on child seat laws? Also, by not wearing a seat belt, if you are injured in a wreck, disabled, and unable to work, after insurance pays their max dollar, what is the chance you are going to end up on government support to live because you can't work?

If I recall correctly Corth, this is your field of specialty, so I'm honestly curious about the domino affect, not trying to nitpick or anything. Believe it or not I agree and extend that to helmet laws as well. If a person would rather increase the chance that their brains are gonna be splattered all over the road in a motorcycle wreck, its their god given right to not wear a helmet. But again, if they aren't killed, merely incapped and stuck in a vegetative state for several years, who is paying for it?

Corth wrote:Final example of government going too far are drug laws. Again, I am an adult human being. What moral authority does the government have to say that I cannot ingest/snort/inject myself with whatever the hell I choose to? If I want to shoot up Heroin, then its my own bad. Quite frankly, most illegal narcotics are not any worse than alcohol. Moreover, what about potentially lifesaving drugs that are not yet FDA approved? If I was a terminally ill cancer patient and I was denied potentially life extending/saving treatment because the buearocrats at the FDA haven't yet examined whther the drug might have some side effects, I would be really pissed.


I agree with this. However, it would need the same restrictions as alcohol. If you are smoking pot to help with pain management, getting behind the wheel of a vehicle and driving should be what is illegal. Basically, harsher penalties for crimes performed under the influence because that influence CAN harm other people.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:13 pm

I think the whole non smoking thing stems from trying to lower pollutants as our population rises .. it has delved into America's "rights" movement

Responsible adult be damned :P It is my RIGHT to be an idiot :) If I didnt love my signature so much, I'd add that!

But yeah Sarvis you are getting a little tin-hattish .. may want to look at property with Kiryan and Vena ..

and next thing we know Kiryan and Vena and their baseball team will be communing it, since that is the only place in America in 2007 you can raise a family on 1700/month while meeting all the basic necessities in life .. sure temporarily anything can be done .. throw in the normal wrench or two, hospital bills, a trip to the dentist .. what have you .. and you cant do it

$12.00 / hr for 40 hrs doesn't equate to 1700/month unless you have so many dependents you don't pay any taxes or dental or health insurance .. but WAIT .. you would qualify for the earned income credit!!! Just wait til April for all your bills!

and I guess we are all generalizing .. there may be areas in the country you can survive on that low of an income .. but you know what .. unless your are born there or someone pays for you to move, you are kinda stuck where you are at .. especially on a limited income ..
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:25 pm

Short one for now: Since you are all repeating the exact same point ad nauseum (seriously, once one of you has said it do you all need to parrot it?) In what crazed dream does my choice to enter the same building as you equate to giving you permission to harm me?

If I want to go to a bar it's because I want to drink and/or hang out with friends... not because I want lung cancer. Those choices shouldn't be automatically lumped together. (I'll try to find studies for you later Kifle, but note that I never cited anyone on this... let alone the EPA.)
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:58 pm

Sarvis,

Very simple. If you don't want lung cancer, don't step into MY bar.

By the way, I give you permission to rip this post apart. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:03 pm

Uh-oh.. Sarvis ripped up my post!!!

Corth wrote:Sarvis,
Sarvis wrote:Yes?
corth wrote:Very simple.
Sarvis wrote:You non-liberals always have a simplistic way of looking at the world
corth wrote:If you don't want lung cancer,
Sarvis wrote:Did I say I was advocating lung cancer?!
corth wrote:don't step into MY bar.
sarvis wrote:Discriminating against me eh?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:26 pm

Lilira wrote:And your stance on child seat laws? Also, by not wearing a seat belt, if you are injured in a wreck, disabled, and unable to work, after insurance pays their max dollar, what is the chance you are going to end up on government support to live because you can't work?


You raise an excellent point. I was thinking in terms of the initial cost of treating the injuries, but certainly you could end up on SSI disability down the line, and thus exact a cost against society.

My response would be twofold. First, in my ideal world, government would not be in the business of providing disability insurance. Of course, that is not very realistic. So secondly, you can use the same logic justifying the seat belt laws to make McDonalds illegal. Why should we allow adult human beings to stuff just anything down their throat, when invariably they get fat and sick and end up being a drain on government resources?

I think most people in favor of seat belt laws would probably be against outlawing McDonalds. So my question is... where do we draw the line? How do we decide what individual freedoms should be protected, even when they cost society? The way I see it, if you can force people to wear seat belts, you can just as easily force them not to eat disfavored foods.

Incidentally, I am in favor of child seat laws and child seat belt laws because those are situations where another party will get hurt due to your stupidity in not protecting your child. My philosophy on it is that adults should be allowed to do stupid idiotic things that only hurt themselves.

By the way.. someone needs to challenge me on smoking in your own home in the presence of your child. Cause that I have no answer for :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:29 pm

Corth wrote:Sarvis,

Very simple. If you don't want lung cancer, don't step into MY bar.

By the way, I give you permission to rip this post apart. :)


And again, why should your habits dictate where I decide to go?

Should gunfights be ok if the bar owner is ok with it? Barfights? Indoor bonfires? Is it ok to shoot someone walking through a dangerous neighborhood because they should have known to avoid it? If someone shows that it causes irreperable harm to see two guys kissing on the street should anyone who doesn't want their childrens' fragile little minds to be warped just keep the kid inside at all times?

See, the problem is we all have to interact at some point. No matter how hard I try I WILL end up in a building with a smoker at some point.

EDIT:

By the way.. someone needs to challenge me on smoking in your own home in the presence of your child. Cause that I have no answer for :)


Are you kidding? Private property and all that. You should be able to do anything you want on your own property, no matter how it affects others. That's what this whole thing is about! Hell, that's what Libertarianism is about if you listen to the myriad Internet Libertarians.

The fact that your hurting someone else just doesn't enter into it, any more than it does if someone elses kid is in the same "private business" as you while you are smoking.
Last edited by Sarvis on Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:33 pm

Corth wrote:Uh-oh.. Sarvis ripped up my post!!!

Corth wrote:Sarvis,
Sarvis wrote:Yes?
corth wrote:Very simple.
Sarvis wrote:You non-liberals always have a simplistic way of looking at the world
corth wrote:If you don't want lung cancer,
Sarvis wrote:Did I say I was advocating lung cancer?!
corth wrote:don't step into MY bar.
sarvis wrote:Discriminating against me eh?


You never answered my question after the post in the other thread. Was that post ok? Not too "ripped apart for you?"
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:00 pm

sarvis wrote:And again, why should your habits dictate where I decide to go?


I don't think you are following me. Don't come into my fucking bar. I have the right to withhold service to anyone I want for almost any reason, and fuck you, I don't like you because you don't smoke. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:Short one for now: Since you are all repeating the exact same point ad nauseum (seriously, once one of you has said it do you all need to parrot it?) In what crazed dream does my choice to enter the same building as you equate to giving you permission to harm me?

If I want to go to a bar it's because I want to drink and/or hang out with friends... not because I want lung cancer. Those choices shouldn't be automatically lumped together. (I'll try to find studies for you later Kifle, but note that I never cited anyone on this... let alone the EPA.)


Well, the anti-secondhand smoke stigma has been largely propagated by that EPA report; so, I guess I just assumed that's where your misinformation stems from.

Anyway, caw-caw, In what crazed dream does you entering a bar by your own volition equate to me harming you? If I run into a fire you set in a grill, and I put my head in it, is it your fault because you built the fire? No, it would be my fault that I stuck my head in there. The sooner you realize you have a choice, the sooner you realize you've been making the choice to harm yourself the entire time. Stop being a victim.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:17 pm

Corth wrote:
Lilira wrote:And your stance on child seat laws? Also, by not wearing a seat belt, if you are injured in a wreck, disabled, and unable to work, after insurance pays their max dollar, what is the chance you are going to end up on government support to live because you can't work?


You raise an excellent point. I was thinking in terms of the initial cost of treating the injuries, but certainly you could end up on SSI disability down the line, and thus exact a cost against society.

My response would be twofold. First, in my ideal world, government would not be in the business of providing disability insurance. Of course, that is not very realistic. So secondly, you can use the same logic justifying the seat belt laws to make McDonalds illegal. Why should we allow adult human beings to stuff just anything down their throat, when invariably they get fat and sick and end up being a drain on government resources?

I think most people in favor of seat belt laws would probably be against outlawing McDonalds. So my question is... where do we draw the line? How do we decide what individual freedoms should be protected, even when they cost society? The way I see it, if you can force people to wear seat belts, you can just as easily force them not to eat disfavored foods.

Incidentally, I am in favor of child seat laws and child seat belt laws because those are situations where another party will get hurt due to your stupidity in not protecting your child. My philosophy on it is that adults should be allowed to do stupid idiotic things that only hurt themselves.

By the way.. someone needs to challenge me on smoking in your own home in the presence of your child. Cause that I have no answer for :)


Oddly, it was shown in a famous study (can't remember who did it... sam something or other), seatbelt laws actually had fewer deaths per accident, but more accidents. The study also noted an increase in the number of pedestrian deaths. Technically, from a safty standpoint, the only person being protected here is the idiot with the seatbelt on while he is, in turn, becoming more dangerous to everybody around him.

Smoking in the presence of your child, according to the WHO, can actually cause an inverse correlation between cancer and smoke. So, on a limited basis, what is wrong with smoking around your child?
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:21 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:By the way.. someone needs to challenge me on smoking in your own home in the presence of your child. Cause that I have no answer for :)


Are you kidding? Private property and all that. You should be able to do anything you want on your own property, no matter how it affects others. That's what this whole thing is about! Hell, that's what Libertarianism is about if you listen to the myriad Internet Libertarians.

The fact that your hurting someone else just doesn't enter into it, any more than it does if someone elses kid is in the same "private business" as you while you are smoking.


Your children do not have a choice whether to be around the smoke (inside the house) or not. And, even if they did, they are not mature, or intelligent, enough to formulate their own opinions based on the available evidence on the matter. You, on the other hand, have a choice not to go to Corth's privately owned bar. Shit, next you're going to tell us that nudists must wear clothing at nudist colonies becuase you have a friend there and showing nakedness in such a fashion is morally wrong -- therefore a cause of moral degeneration in society! Stop poluting my air with your car please.
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:35 pm

Whoah.. hold up a second Kifle. Your questioning the almost universal consensus view that second hand smoke is harmful?

Should I expect you to call global warming a hoax next? :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:46 pm

Corth wrote:Whoah.. hold up a second Kifle. Your questioning the almost universal consensus view that second hand smoke is harmful? If you keep following that path you'll soon be explaining to me how global warming is not caused by humans. :)

Corth


I'm just using the evidence given by the experts. It's not my fault the EPA used meta-analysis, deviated from acceptable scientific standards, and claimed causality by a 14% (brought down from I think 24 because they omitted more than 10 out of the 40+ studies they chose to get their analysis from) increase when every other science requires a 2:1 (1.0-2.0 or 100% -- 50% being the bare minimum for suspected) correlation to prove causality.

Johns Hopkins and the WHO are very reputable, independant research entities; the EPA, on the otherhand, is not. I'll ask you, as I asked Sarvis, if you can find undeniable evidence that second-hand smoke directly causes cancer, and can successfully debunk the findings of both the Hopkins and WHO studies, I will gladly concede.

On top of this, you have the decision to strike the EPA's findings and regard them as fraudulent in a federal court ruling:

"EPA publicly committed to a conclusion before research has begun; excluded industry by violating the [Radon] Act's procedural requirements; adjusted established procedure and scientific norms to validate the agencies public conclusion, and aggressively used the Act's authority to disseminate findings to establish a de facto regulatory scheme intended to restrict Plaintiff's products and to influence public opinion"
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:03 pm

I've never seen a thread where I agree wholeheartedly with half of someone's statement, then want to slap them for the other half. For instance: I tend to agree with a lot of what Corth has posted, but the idea that certain drugs shouldn't be controlled is pretty silly. The substances controlled or outlawed by the government are a little more destructive than alcohol or cigarettes, and not just to the person using them. I don't see anything wrong with legislation designed to protect our citizens from those who would abuse this "freedom".

I am however, against the smoking bans in private establishments. As long as people have a choice on whether or not to enter that area, why shouldn't the owner retain control of the environment of their own establishment.

Really, I just wanted to post in a thread where smoking around others was compared to homosexual public displays of affection. Kiryan... wow. Just wow.
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Postby Ghimok » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:13 pm

Sarvis wrote: How about running a lawnmower engine in a bar for a couple hours?


Does running a lawnmower in a bowling alley count? It was completely unnecesary of my friend to mow the carpet, but it was frankly quite hilarious right up until the point that the police arrived. I'm not sure what was so "disorderly" about his conduct. I thought he was mowing in very straight lines and did a good job of trimming around the tables and chairs. At least they got the drunken part right.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:58 pm

Kifle wrote:I'll ask you, as I asked Sarvis, if you can find undeniable evidence that second-hand smoke directly causes cancer, and can successfully debunk the findings of both the Hopkins and WHO studies, I will gladly concede.


You realize he was agreeing with you, right?

Also, there's no such thing as undeniable evidence. Fundamentalists can deny pretty much anything... :P
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Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:I'll ask you, as I asked Sarvis, if you can find undeniable evidence that second-hand smoke directly causes cancer, and can successfully debunk the findings of both the Hopkins and WHO studies, I will gladly concede.


You realize he was agreeing with you, right?

Also, there's no such thing as undeniable evidence. Fundamentalists can deny pretty much anything... :P


Corth doesn't agree with me -- ever. In fact, from recent history, I'm pretty sure he largely thinks I'm an idiot; and I doubt his last post there was sarcasm. If it was, that was the most convincing sarcastic post ever.

Ok, I'll concede to that. There isn't really undeniable evidence. Let me rephrase. If you can give me scientific evidence that is just as credible as the two linked research studies and follows scientific standards, then I think I would be more apt to enter into a debate without thinking that objectors are just regurgitating garbage they heard on the news; because, at this point, I think the social stigma surrounding second-hand smoke, created by the falsified findings of the EPA, has more to do with most people's "evidence" or "proof" that second-hand smoke causes cancer than actual evidence or proof -- mostly because the available findings outside of partisan institutes (yes, I'm aware the tobacco industry has them as well) have only shown a non-causal relationship between second-hand smoke and cancer.
Last edited by Kifle on Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:20 pm

Kifle,

Not sure why you believe I think your an idiot. I think your vantage point is completely reasonable and well thought out. I would even say the same thing about many of Sarvis' posts.

I don't know if sarcastic is the right word. I was pointing out, in my own way, that you were taking a position that was contrary to the universal consensus position. I mean.. what reasonable educated person believes that second hand smoke is not dangerous? The WHO must be getting donations from big tobacco or something! But really, I took note of it because I felt it was in a small way relevent to the global warming debate.. though I really really really do not want to rehash that one.

And we DO agree about smoking in private establishments.. or at least, allowing owners of privately run establishments to choose whether they want to allow smoking or not. And.. OMG, the world has not ended. My magnet still points north, and I do not see any fire nor any brimstone!!!11
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:24 pm

Gormal,

Can you slap me with your sailor outfit on? Oh errr..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:03 pm

$2,080 (number of working hours in a year) * $12 an hour = $24,960 a year / 12 months a year = $2,080 a month * .85 (15% in tax) = $1,768. With 6 dependents, I'm sure we'd get at least our taxes back.

I should probably subtract $250 for health insurance, that leaves $1,500.

A 1400 sqft house out here can rent for around $750, there are obviously much more expensive places, but there are some cheaper ones as well and this is a house. I would shoot for something maybe a $400 manufactured/mobile home in a slum where some would have to sleep on the floor in the living room. 30 days * 3 meals = 90 * $5 a meal = $450. I can feed 7 on $5 a meal. Supplment this crappy food with $50 in vitamins and nutritionally we're taken care of even if we are eating hotdogs and rice. That leaves at least $550 a month to pay for things like water and electric (assuming not provided by the apartment complex), car insurance and gas, copays and basic household items like soap, toilet paper, pads, and clothes at thrift stores and garage sales. I think I could even save $100-150 a month which I would because as Ambar said, things come up.

cans of cambel soup can be had for 50 cents
a 50 pound bag of rice can be had for about $18 and lasts at least 6 months at at least 6-7 cups of rice a day.
a 3lb package of kielbasa can be as cheap $4-7
chicken can get down to < 20 cents a pound, but usually closer to $1 which is still affordable.
ramen, 12 cents per serving
Eggs, $1.50 per dozen
london broil / ground hamburger / roast $2 a pound on sale
various pork cuts $1.50-$2 per pound
peanut butter
cheap bread works out to about 8 cents per slice
a good enough multivitamin is around 10 cents per dose daily.
hot dogs 10 cents each wiener

Sure, this is a very low standard of living. My last costco bill was $800 and my monthly average is probably right around $800. However, we eat and live very well because we can afford it. If you have 5 kids and make $12 an hour then hotdogs and macaroni and cheese is your standard of living... and its a damn good standard if you want to compare it to the standard in many parts of the world including china.
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Postby Botef » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:03 pm

As a non-smoker I personally dislike the indoor smoking ban in bars. Maybe I'm a minority there but I just think its silly that non-smokers think they have a 'right' to demand that a business cater specifically to them. Don't smokers have an equal right to demand a venue where they CAN smoke?

Bars which cater to adults only should be upto the owner. I don't smoke but most of my friends do. Now when they goto the bar they have to stand outside in the cold to smoke - which means I have to stand outside in the cold, or sit inside by myself while they puff away outside.

Whats really silly about the smoking ban in Washington is it about killed smoking-specific bars over night (Sheesha bars, cigar clubs, etc)! Theres quite a few sheesha bars in our area and now they have to create these private clubs and do a bunch of jumping through hoops.
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Postby Sundara » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:31 pm

Corth wrote:Incidentally, I am in favor of child seat laws and child seat belt laws because those are situations where another party will get hurt due to your stupidity in not protecting your child. My philosophy on it is that adults should be allowed to do stupid idiotic things that only hurt themselves.



Somtimes hurting themselves mean hurting others. I.E: parent(s) dies and child is motherless/fatherless or both for the "adult" stupid mistake or vice versa; parents losing their kids for driving w/o belt, they suffer, too. In the end, the law is just to ensure safetey on "everyone" adult or not. But everyone knows that! :) RIGHT?!

p.s. I actually had time to read some torilians povs today!
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