The USSR

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:07 am

Kifle wrote:Altruism is performing some action that helps somebody besides yourself for the sole purpose of helping that other person. This is flawed. I didn't say doing shit for other people was inexistant. Think of it this way. You do these things for other kids because you get benefit from it. You feel better. You're avoiding guilt. You WANT to help these kids, for some personal reason; therefore, you do it. This is egoism behind the mask of altruism. In everything that you do, there is a personal reason behind it -- no action is EVER for the purpose of another human being without some form of personal gain. Those that say they do things for the sake of others are kidding themselves.


Enlightened self-interest can still be altruism if it benefits the other party. It's just that it happens to help yourself as well. I'd certainly rather live in a world where people engaged in altruistic behavior only out of enlightened self-interest than a world where people rejected all forms of altruism as a sham and consequently were less likely to help others out.
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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:12 am

Ashiwi wrote:I'm just stating that you cannot compare egoism and altruism. Egoism is an ingrained biological drive, and altruism is a higher concept. I don't really believe any action can be "purely" altruistic, because everything a human being does is driven by desire or need, but that's tainting a concept of philosophy by biological mechanism. In order to be able to measure the capacity of altruism in a psyche you would have to be able to remove the physical drive for self, which is impossible, therefore you have to take into account the egoism inherent within the species and consider the measure of altruism within an individual outside of the community standard of drive for self.

Okay, and maybe egoism isn't evolution, per se, but it is one of the main drives of evolution... the drive for self, the drive for survival, the drive to fulfill the basic needs, wants and desires. Getting something out of everything you do. Efficiency of existence. Egoism is the mechanism and evolution is the effect.

The concepts of Egoism and Altruism are as different as concepts of the Id and the Superego. That's why Egoism is such a crap philosophy. It doesn't even realize it's a base drive and only merits a place in a philosophy book for a comparison of the ways in which the spirit overcomes the fundamentals of necessity in order to move to a higher dimension of being.

Oh, and P.S.

Synonymous, instance and quote are spelled... Oh, but I'm sure you get it. :wink:


Lol, I wasn't being snippy in my post script :P or wasn't trying anyway. I just get confused when quotations are messed up a bit is all.

Anyway, philosophy, as a study, attempts to describe the universe in every aspect -- from metaphysics to ethics. Egoism is just a spot on observation... I don't think a philosophy on ethics should be discounted or discredited in anyway because it fulfilled it's function. That's really just silliness. You're basically condemning egoism because it defines what it intended to define -- specifically, what people act in relation to good and evil/right and wrong. I guess I'm just not seeing your complaint.

Again, altruism can not be a part of egoism because, by definition, it is contradictory. There are no degrees of altruism, again, by definition. There are alturistic actions and then there are non-altruistic actions. There is absolutely no grey area. If you want to describe good actions and try to limit human mechanisms, don't use the term altruism because it is a perversion of the term to the point it loses its initial concept. Egoism was defined because altruism failed to account for basic human behavior. Therefore, egoism is the realistic while altruistic is the unattainable. Altruism is sacrifice without desire or gain. Egoism is sacrifice with gain and desire. See how there can be no varying degrees in altruism but they are allowed within egoism?

Adriorn:

Can you perform any action without a desire to do that action? Unless you are controlled remotely, no. While desire exists, altruism can not. Call your theory something else, because it is not altruism.
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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:13 pm

moritheil wrote:
Kifle wrote:Altruism is performing some action that helps somebody besides yourself for the sole purpose of helping that other person. This is flawed. I didn't say doing shit for other people was inexistant. Think of it this way. You do these things for other kids because you get benefit from it. You feel better. You're avoiding guilt. You WANT to help these kids, for some personal reason; therefore, you do it. This is egoism behind the mask of altruism. In everything that you do, there is a personal reason behind it -- no action is EVER for the purpose of another human being without some form of personal gain. Those that say they do things for the sake of others are kidding themselves.


Enlightened self-interest can still be altruism if it benefits the other party. It's just that it happens to help yourself as well. I'd certainly rather live in a world where people engaged in altruistic behavior only out of enlightened self-interest than a world where people rejected all forms of altruism as a sham and consequently were less likely to help others out.


Translation: Egoism can still be considered alturism.

So wrong. Wtf is with you people? I don't give a fuck what word you use to describe your desire to not be egoists while still being egoists, but for god's sake, stop using the word altruism. You contradict yourselves every time you say anything along the lines of "I can perform an altruistic deed and still gain from it." No, no no no no you can't that is contradictory. That's like saying I'm living in a pitch-black, lighted room.

Mori, enlightened self-interest is STILL self-interest. Maybe this is a battle of semantics, but I don't really care how you want to twist the words, you're still attempting to redefine altruism into something it is not. Choose another word. And regardless of what word you use, it is still, unfortunately for you, subsumed by egoism.

Maybe you're using Comte's very outdated, obsolete definition of the word, but even still, it is subsumed by egoism. I'm just going to walk away from this thread. If it makes you guys feel better to not think of yourselves as egoists, more power to you, I guess.
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teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:03 pm

Conflicts of Interest + Egoism = Boom.
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