Which Democrat are you supporting in the primaries?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.

Which Democrat do you support?

Joe Biden
2
7%
Hillary Clinton
12
41%
Chris Dodd
1
3%
John Edwards
0
No votes
Mike Gravel
1
3%
Dennis Kucinich
1
3%
Barack Obama
10
34%
Bill Richardson
2
7%
 
Total votes: 29
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:41 pm

Sarvis,

I am talking about management of markets. You are talking about management of a particular business or governmental program.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Kifle » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:18 pm

avak wrote:You know why I really can't support Clinton? Not because of her policy, but because of her personality. So, I'm thinking Obama will clinch NH and then pretty much be the man to beat after that. I was looking online for recent poll numbers from NH and see that Obama has made a very bold claim:

"Fresh from his stunning eight-point victory in the Iowa caucuses, an assured Mr Obama landed in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and declared: "If you give me the same chance Iowa gave me last night, I truly believe I will be President of the United States.""

And I believe it. But what really gets me is how Clinton is spinning her trouncing in Iowa. She's gone, predictably, negative. WTF I am so tired of attack-style politics.

"Mrs Clinton, who was beaten into an ignominious third place behind John Edwards, made clear she would attack Mr Obama relentlessly as she fought for political survival.

There were "a lot of unanswered questions" about the candidates, she said, telling voters she wanted to hear: "What do you want to know about us?" Clinton aides briefed that Mr Obama was incompetent and a poor debater."

You know, F that. That is how you win elections these days? By tearing down your opponent? Reminds me of some of the ridiculous discussions on this very forum. I thought the repubs were the ones that promoted fear, uncertainty and doubt as a core strategy. Embarrassing.


If he wasn't a poor debater and wouldn't be an incompetent president, she'd have nothing to say, would she. I think it's great that she is pointing out his flaws so that even the retarded MTV generation might be able to see he's a bad president.

I can understand not wanting to hear dirty politics, but sometimes the truth should be told. I think it's nice that people pointed out Huckabee's insanity when they reported he released a rapist... who then murdered people. Somehow his crazy ass won Iowa.

I want to know the flaws of my candidates as much as I want to know their good sides. In this case, Obama's flaws outweigh his positives when it comes to this job.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:29 am

Corth wrote:Sarvis,

I am talking about management of markets. You are talking about management of a particular business or governmental program.


No, I'm not really. You are claiming government management will cause either a bed shortage or a bed surplus. I am saying that private management has the same hazards. It doesn't matter if we're talking about one hospital or all of them, the same challenges are faced, and the same mistakes are possible.

The private sector can't automagically add new hospitals any more than the government can. There is no rush on building because the private sector is paying for the construction.
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Postby Imis9 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:08 am

The healthcare discussion really belongs in the healthcare thread.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, while I disagree with most of Obama's politics, he seems like a genuine person to me. He came from a tough background to make something of himself. For him, those struggles have forged him into a strong person. He speaks about hope and the future. From his Iowa performance, he can pull in the independents and republicans far better than Clinton or Edwards. Hell, I'm a conservative, but if it was Obama vs Huckabee, I'd vote for Obama because he is honest.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:21 am

Sarvis wrote:The private sector can't automagically add new hospitals any more than the government can.


Just like American capitalism didn't automagically add infrastructure any more than Russian or Chinese communism could.

Oh yeah, SCORE ONE for all liberals. In your face, Corth. *cough*sarcasm*cough*

Sarvis,

The private sector is uniquely different from government in that it is subject to different factors than government is. This is why in a rational society, the private sector and the government are not sole or competitive forces, but the aim of good governance and corporate responsibility is to coordinate efforts between the two.

In quite a few sets of circumstances, the private sector can get things done faster than the government, and vice versa on rare occasion. Often times, one shields the other from unreasonable interests or irrational ones in order to get things done.

Combined, they make a far more efficient, effective machine than either one going it alone. (don't feel like I'm singling you out, Sarvis, this is also a shot across Corth's libertarian bow. down with ron paul.)
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:38 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Sarvis,

I am talking about management of markets. You are talking about management of a particular business or governmental program.


No, I'm not really. You are claiming government management will cause either a bed shortage or a bed surplus.


Yes, you are really. Management of markets simply means governmental regulation of markets, ensuring the mobility of money, providing for an economy, and deciding how internal and external factors are allowed to influence the market with or without molestation from the forces of governance.

Everything you've been saying has nothing to do with the management of markets.
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Postby avak » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:55 pm

Kifle wrote:If he wasn't a poor debater and wouldn't be an incompetent president, she'd have nothing to say, would she. I think it's great that she is pointing out his flaws so that even the retarded MTV generation might be able to see he's a bad president.

I can understand not wanting to hear dirty politics, but sometimes the truth should be told. I think it's nice that people pointed out Huckabee's insanity when they reported he released a rapist... who then murdered people. Somehow his crazy ass won Iowa.

I want to know the flaws of my candidates as much as I want to know their good sides. In this case, Obama's flaws outweigh his positives when it comes to this job.


I definitely know where you are coming from. Poltics, no matter how noble, essentially require some of what you are referring to. I also realize that Obama is not returning the personal attacks because that is the standard strategy of the leader...they always stay positive so that they look more professional and so that the others seem petty and desperate. In fact, back in the Fall, Clinton was the leader and was mostly positive.

But, Clinton's rhetoric is different. Today I heard her say something along the lines of, 'don't trust Obama, we need to be realistic about what we can deliver to the country.' I think it is unfortunate to take the tact that a bold vision is naive and dangerous.

I've always been fast to defend Clinton from those ridiculous attacks on her as a 'dyke' or 'bitch' just because she is a assertive woman, but she is really far from warm and fuzzy. Not that a president should be, but you should like or respect them.

And if it wasn't Obama I would definitely support Edwards. Class act.
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Postby Kifle » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:57 pm

avak wrote:
Kifle wrote:If he wasn't a poor debater and wouldn't be an incompetent president, she'd have nothing to say, would she. I think it's great that she is pointing out his flaws so that even the retarded MTV generation might be able to see he's a bad president.

I can understand not wanting to hear dirty politics, but sometimes the truth should be told. I think it's nice that people pointed out Huckabee's insanity when they reported he released a rapist... who then murdered people. Somehow his crazy ass won Iowa.

I want to know the flaws of my candidates as much as I want to know their good sides. In this case, Obama's flaws outweigh his positives when it comes to this job.


I definitely know where you are coming from. Poltics, no matter how noble, essentially require some of what you are referring to. I also realize that Obama is not returning the personal attacks because that is the standard strategy of the leader...they always stay positive so that they look more professional and so that the others seem petty and desperate. In fact, back in the Fall, Clinton was the leader and was mostly positive.

But, Clinton's rhetoric is different. Today I heard her say something along the lines of, 'don't trust Obama, we need to be realistic about what we can deliver to the country.' I think it is unfortunate to take the tact that a bold vision is naive and dangerous.

I've always been fast to defend Clinton from those ridiculous attacks on her as a 'dyke' or 'bitch' just because she is a assertive woman, but she is really far from warm and fuzzy. Not that a president should be, but you should like or respect them.

And if it wasn't Obama I would definitely support Edwards. Class act.


Lol, Edwards is slimier than both of them. In my opinion, he is nowhere close to a class act. As far as Hill's recent comments: even though they are negative, I think she is spot on with what you paraphrased there. It would be a miracle if a president could do half of what they say -- even if they want to. It's just the nature of the three-branch system this country has. I mean, if she was saying crap like, "Oh, we can't trust him, look at this family," or "he's a flip floper!" I would agree with the dirty politics label; however, she's pointing out pretty much my exact concerns about Obama -- and it seems the concerns of other people on this board.

See, to me, Obama is trying to be the non-politician while still being a politician. He's trying to be the new honest/fresh politician because this country is so sick and tired of the old-style politician -- mainly because of this current administration. It is a good tactic. It's helping him win where he would usually have no chance. Anyway, I want to write more, but I just can't articulate what I'm trying to say very well right now -- not that I do a good job usually, but today it's especially bad.

If it comes down to Obama and anyone but McCain, I will vote Obama only to keep the republicans out of office. I may not even vote, but I think a Huckabee ran country is scarier than one ran by Obama.
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Postby Corth » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:07 pm

Heheh, class act! :)

Bob Shrum (Adviser to John Kerry during his 2004 presidential campaign) wrote:Kerry talked with several potential picks, including Gephardt and Edwards. He was comfortable after his conversations with Gephardt, but even queasier about Edwards after they met. Edwards had told Kerry he was going to share a story with him that he'd never told anyone else—that after his son Wade had been killed, he climbed onto the slab at the funeral home, laid there and hugged his body, and promised that he'd do all he could to make life better for people, to live up to Wade's ideals of service. Kerry was stunned, not moved, because, as he told me later, Edwards had recounted the same exact story to him, almost in the exact same words, a year or two before—and with the same preface, that he'd never shared the memory with anyone else. Kerry said he found it chilling, and he decided he couldn't pick Edwards unless he met with him again.


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... -2,00.html
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:24 pm

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2AE847UXu3Q

John Edwards is pretty! :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby avak » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:14 pm

Corth wrote:John Edwards is pretty! :)


Thank god that in the US voters are too smart to be swayed by looks.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:38 am

avak wrote:I've always been fast to defend Clinton from those ridiculous attacks on her as a 'dyke' or 'bitch' just because she is a assertive woman, but she is really far from warm and fuzzy.


That kind of talk does really seem to smack of misogyny a bit much.
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Postby avak » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:52 pm

In honor of the fact that Obama is going to crush in NH I thought I'd revisit this topic.

I'm still really thrown by this assertion that Obama is a bad debater. I realize that debating per se is different than public speaking, but Obama is clearly the best public speaker in the slate of all candidates. In terms of his debating style, he seems to be clear and coherent and sticks to message quite well. Maybe there are examples of poor debate performances that I have not seen.

Clinton, on the other hand, is continually alienating voters with her coarse style and cold demeanor. It was absolutely fascinating to listen to her "breakdown" this morning on the radio. She really sounded like a human being that a person could relate to and therefore support.

The poor debater, inexperienced card is the best a desperate Clinton camp can conjure in this moment of what appears to be annihilation by a real contender with the ability to energize and truly mobilize (record primary turnouts) a historically apathetic voter pool.
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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:48 am

Just when you thought she was down and out, Clinton comes back to win NH.

Since I have resigned myself to the fact that there is a much greater than even chance of a democrat being the next president, I find myself actually rooting for her. Maybe the inexperience card is the only one she can play against Obama, but experience counts for a lot when you are talking about the leader of the free world.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:19 am

avak wrote:In honor of the fact that Obama is going to crush in NH I thought I'd revisit this topic.


Since when does crush = down by 3%? Oh man, I love the Hill!
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Postby Birile » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:53 pm

I'm lovin' New Hampshire right now.

I completely understand younger peoples' desire to get behind a candidate who uses the word "Change" in every sentence but I have to tell you, Obama hasn't talked about how he's going to change how things are done in Washington. If you ask me, Edwards has done that a lot more than Obama.

It fascinates me that people still think Hillary is a cold person when there have been one report after another in which people have said, "Wow, she was so warm and personable when I talked with her--she really understood my needs and concerns." Again, that's a skill she used to great effect here in New York when she wooed our conservative upstate farming communities by actually asking them what was important to them--and then doing something about it when she went to work for the state. We need a leader who's going to listen to us and do something about what we need, not just talk about change.

You want someone who will work with Republicans instead of push back against them the way Bush has done to Democrats? Obama says he'll do that, but Hillary has done that. You can't strong-arm policy in a bipartisan country--it'll bite you in the ass. Concessions will need to be made to get more important things done--that's something one only comes to understand with experience.

And Hell, I think she'll actually stand up for the country and not let anybody walk all over us--without alienating the rest of the world. Perish the thought!

Anyway, I'm excited again--still nervous, it'll all depend on momentum--but she's got a great chance now.
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Postby avak » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:08 pm

Kifle wrote:
avak wrote:In honor of the fact that Obama is going to crush in NH I thought I'd revisit this topic.


Since when does crush = down by 3%? Oh man, I love the Hill!


Uh, yeah, wow. At least grant me the fact that no one predicted that kind of performance...not even Hillary! It was very surprising and impressive that she was able to capture what appears to be many new voters. It also shows how BS most polling can be.

I'll readily admit it was a little wishful thinking that Obama would crush in NH because had he done that he would have probably wrapped up the nomination. Now it is going to be a long race.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:58 pm

avak wrote:
Kifle wrote:
avak wrote:In honor of the fact that Obama is going to crush in NH I thought I'd revisit this topic.


Since when does crush = down by 3%? Oh man, I love the Hill!


Uh, yeah, wow. At least grant me the fact that no one predicted that kind of performance...not even Hillary! It was very surprising and impressive that she was able to capture what appears to be many new voters. It also shows how BS most polling can be.

I'll readily admit it was a little wishful thinking that Obama would crush in NH because had he done that he would have probably wrapped up the nomination. Now it is going to be a long race.


Lol, no doubt. I was pissed when I went to bed before the NH primaries because they were projecting Obama by a good 10%+. Last night I was extatic -- not only because Hil won (but only tied for delegates), but McCain tore shit up as well. I think Huck got 3rd, which is still more than I expected he'd take. I'm also thinking Hil will pick up more superdelegates than Obama as well. It would be harder for them to support her if Obama had won Iowa by a larger margin and harder still if she didn't win NH, but I think now, if she can keep it up, she will ttake the majority of SDs in NH and hopefully the rest of the states.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:54 pm

Corth, here's the story about the $200 Billion Broadband Scandal the telcos pulled from the passage of the 1996 Telecommunications Act till now.

Basically, the Act gave them BIG incentives and tax breaks, and the telcos were supposed to use this help to get a national fiberoptic network laid across the country door-to-door. The telcos did nothing whatsoever, pocketed the money, and then lobbied the FCC into redefining "broadband" so it looked like they did the work.

Now, the average American has the "choice" between the local cable monopoly holder and the local DSL monopoly holder, and they'll be glad to give him an asymmetrical, bandwidth-starved, oversubscribed, data transfer capped link for $40-60++/mo for the non-embarrassing speeds. In contrast, his Japanese brother is spoilt for options with an impressive array of blistering speeds at shockingly low prices

None of this will change unless there is serious pressure from the government. The Telcos actively lobby against even the smallest municipal deployment of fiber, the FCC is thoroughly rotten and complicit all the way up to their top, ex-telco, man, and the American public is careful shielded away from the news of how bad our situation is, and how much better the rest of the world has it.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:14 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:Corth, here's the story about the $200 Billion Broadband Scandal the telcos pulled from the passage of the 1996 Telecommunications Act till now.

Basically, the Act gave them BIG incentives and tax breaks, and the telcos were supposed to use this help to get a national fiberoptic network laid across the country door-to-door. The telcos did nothing whatsoever, pocketed the money, and then lobbied the FCC into redefining "broadband" so it looked like they did the work.

Now, the average American has the "choice" between the local cable monopoly holder and the local DSL monopoly holder, and they'll be glad to give him an asymmetrical, bandwidth-starved, oversubscribed, data transfer capped link for $40-60++/mo for the non-embarrassing speeds. In contrast, his Japanese brother is spoilt for options with an impressive array of blistering speeds at shockingly low prices

None of this will change unless there is serious pressure from the government. The Telcos actively lobby against even the smallest municipal deployment of fiber, the FCC is thoroughly rotten and complicit all the way up to their top, ex-telco, man, and the American public is careful shielded away from the news of how bad our situation is, and how much better the rest of the world has it.


Now, in this instance, is this something the free market can fix or do we need government meddling? If the market can fix it, how would it? As xis pointed out, our options are locally monopolized cable/dsl or dial-up. Imo, the free market can do nothing in this department because of the enormous expense it would take somebody to compete in the ISP service (you can't just start up your own broadband company without already being rich and probably buying out an already existing one).
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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:56 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:Corth, here's the story about the $200 Billion Broadband Scandal the telcos pulled from the passage of the 1996 Telecommunications Act till now.

Basically, the Act gave them BIG incentives and tax breaks, and the telcos were supposed to use this help to get a national fiberoptic network laid across the country door-to-door. The telcos did nothing whatsoever, pocketed the money, and then lobbied the FCC into redefining "broadband" so it looked like they did the work.

Now, the average American has the "choice" between the local cable monopoly holder and the local DSL monopoly holder, and they'll be glad to give him an asymmetrical, bandwidth-starved, oversubscribed, data transfer capped link for $40-60++/mo for the non-embarrassing speeds. In contrast, his Japanese brother is spoilt for options with an impressive array of blistering speeds at shockingly low prices

None of this will change unless there is serious pressure from the government. The Telcos actively lobby against even the smallest municipal deployment of fiber, the FCC is thoroughly rotten and complicit all the way up to their top, ex-telco, man, and the American public is careful shielded away from the news of how bad our situation is, and how much better the rest of the world has it.


Interesting stuff, I'll have to read up on it. Nothing I hate more than industries shielding themselves from competition by putting politicians into their pocket. Sugar industry is among the worst offenders, but its so widespread. Government protecting industry monopolies.. ugh. If government had less influence, that wouldn't be an issue, would it?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:25 pm

Okay I spent most of the day yesterday poring over the exit polling in NH and found some interesting things that--after I read the polling--had also been mentioned in an article by some media reporter later on in the day.

Hillary Clinton rocked when it came to the lower income, lower educated populations, and those who think there are problems with the US economy--not just women. Barack Obama got the high-brow crowd. Since my reasons for being a Democrat stem mostly from the real, more immediate needs of that lower income crowd, I have to say that I'm really proud of Clinton. It only seems to reinforce the fact that she's talking about substantial, tangible issues while Obama is speaking about, well, a pipe dream. He's got a lot of grand ideas without really speaking to the more immediate, basic needs of the population.

As for the faulty polls prior to the primary, some people are pointing to Clinton tearing up or Obama being black or that so many independents felt the need to make sure McCain won the Republican primary. I think that's nothing compared to the fact that Clinton had landslide wins in the big, more rural industrial cities in New Hampshire--places where people get dirty while working every day... places that were probably not taken into consideration when polling was done. I imagine the polls were done in places like the college towns and wealthier portions of NH where people discuss politics at the local coffeehouse and then take in an indie movie and that's what skewed the data. To me, this shows the power and unity of the multitude of blue collar workers living paycheck to paycheck. I think that's awesome.
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Hillary

Postby Keran » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:45 am

Mmm....supple flanks.

Toarn Ravenheart
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Re: Hillary

Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:57 am

Keran wrote:Mmm....supple flanks.

Toarn Ravenheart


Lol, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it's kinda creepy. I tell my wife she has tender flanks all the time and if we're ever in a life or death situation, say, there's not sandwich meat in the fridge, I will eat her flanks first. mmm... flanks.
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Postby avak » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:51 pm

Been thinking about the Obama experience debate a lot. I just read the transcript from the Vegas debates. Here is a really interesting exchange between Obama and Clinton. I think Obama makes the point beautifully, btw.

[quote]Prompting the exchange: Senator Obama’s admission that “I’m not an operating officer. Some in this debate around experience seem to think the job of the president is to go in and run some bureaucracy. Well, that’s not my job. My job is to set a vision of ‘here’s where the bureaucracy needs to go.’â€
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:23 pm

[quote="avak"]Been thinking about the Obama experience debate a lot. I just read the transcript from the Vegas debates. Here is a really interesting exchange between Obama and Clinton. I think Obama makes the point beautifully, btw.

[quote]Prompting the exchange: Senator Obama’s admission that “I’m not an operating officer. Some in this debate around experience seem to think the job of the president is to go in and run some bureaucracy. Well, that’s not my job. My job is to set a vision of ‘here’s where the bureaucracy needs to go.’â€
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:27 am

Kifle wrote:but he is trying to distance himself from what Americans today seem to hate about the government -- old, white money.


Oh I don't know, Ross Perot had a lot of success billing himself as a CEO. His entire plan was to run the government like a business. Granted, it's been a while since he ran...

I think a lot of the problem with Bush isn't that he was a businessman, but that he was a shitty businessman.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:08 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:but he is trying to distance himself from what Americans today seem to hate about the government -- old, white money.


Oh I don't know, Ross Perot had a lot of success billing himself as a CEO. His entire plan was to run the government like a business. Granted, it's been a while since he ran...

I think a lot of the problem with Bush isn't that he was a businessman, but that he was a shitty businessman.


I was implying the entire administration -- mainly Rumsfeld/Cheney. A lot of people seem to view this administration as run by old, white money businessmen types -- especially with the deals with Halliburton and other multiple economic scandles that disappeared from the news. The oil prices being driven up because of profit mongering. The list goes on. All of these actions, and many of the other administration's actions, are easily equated to how dirty, rich businessmen do their business.

Perot was just a crazy, hook-nosed midget with a lot of money -- kind of like if a parrot mated with a leprechaun.
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Postby Birile » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:48 pm

I thought Obama's performance in the Nevada debate was pretty good until he made the CEO stumble. There's simply no way to put it. He basically said he's got a lot of general ideas and will have people around him who will try to figure out ways to make those ideas reality--which implies that he doesn't know how to figure out the answers himself. If that's not the spitting image of GWB, I absolutely don't know what is.

I also wanted to point out to Kifle that Obama's support comes from the highly-educated latte-drinking $100,000+ income Democrats and the College Democrats--his standing among the paycheck-to-paycheck living lower-middle class is sorely lacking. That's why my feeling is that if John Edwards wasn't in this race, Clinton would trounce Obama in a heartbeat, since Edwards pulls some of the support of the lower-middle class "doers" away from Clinton more than he pulls highbrow "thinkers" away from Obama.

Was it Maslow who discussed the hierarchy of needs? That's how I see this race. Clinton is talking about taking care of the country's basic needs before moving up the pyramid, while Obama's started right up there at the top which this country doesn't even have the luxury of considering right now. Wrong priorities.

If McCain wins the Republican primary and Obama wins the Democratic primary, I may actually have to consider crossing the aisle when I vote--and damn him for that.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:I think a lot of the problem with Bush isn't that he was a businessman, but that he was a shitty businessman.


"The problem?" I love how that's never really qualified by anything concrete. The Federal government is being run leaner and more efficiently than it ever has, and some of the information networks are actually secure for once.

Let's see what this 'problem' is and how it is at all unique to one administration
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Postby Birile » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:39 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I think a lot of the problem with Bush isn't that he was a businessman, but that he was a shitty businessman.


"The problem?" I love how that's never really qualified by anything concrete. The Federal government is being run leaner and more efficiently than it ever has, and some of the information networks are actually secure for once.

Let's see what this 'problem' is and how it is at all unique to one administration


Can this be split off? I'm not interested in another back-and-forth between the usual suspects ruining what has been, thus far, a rather rational discussion of politics--we don't get to have those very much in these forums, and I've been rather enjoying not only this thread, but its sister thread.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:55 pm

Birile wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I think a lot of the problem with Bush isn't that he was a businessman, but that he was a shitty businessman.


"The problem?" I love how that's never really qualified by anything concrete. The Federal government is being run leaner and more efficiently than it ever has, and some of the information networks are actually secure for once.

Let's see what this 'problem' is and how it is at all unique to one administration


Can this be split off? I'm not interested in another back-and-forth between the usual suspects ruining what has been, thus far, a rather rational discussion of politics--we don't get to have those very much in these forums, and I've been rather enjoying not only this thread, but its sister thread.


Dude, chill. When was the last time you saw me reply to any of Teffie's stupidity?
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Postby Imis9 » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:57 pm

There goes Sarvis flaming again. I agree with Birile. Having a discussion is tough when you are calling people stupid which will degenerate to pages of copied text with microcommenting each sentence. Please take Birile's advice.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:08 pm

What are the chances of Edwards dropping out if he doesn't do well in SC? I hoping either Obama or Clinton take SC showing Edwards he has no chance so he drops out. Lets just say this hypothetical actually happens, who would his supporters flock to en masse? Do you think it would be an even split?
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:23 pm

Imis9 wrote:There goes Sarvis flaming again. I agree with Birile. Having a discussion is tough when you are calling people stupid which will degenerate to pages of copied text with microcommenting each sentence. Please take Birile's advice.


So then you ignored the point of my post in order to take a cheap shot? You're so much better, aren't you?

Here, let me spell it out for you: I'm not going to reply to Teflor's post, so you don't have to worry. But hey, why not have ANOTHER off-topic post to bash Sarvis and bring about what you are afraid of?
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Postby Imis9 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:36 am

Kifle, after Edwards horrible showing in NV, he should be just about out of money. If he hopes to have a political career after this, he should drop out of the race like Richards did. Losing a state he should win would be the end of his career. I think a majority of the Edwards folks would go to Obama myself. Thoughts?
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Postby Kifle » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:28 pm

Imis9 wrote:Kifle, after Edwards horrible showing in NV, he should be just about out of money. If he hopes to have a political career after this, he should drop out of the race like Richards did. Losing a state he should win would be the end of his career. I think a majority of the Edwards folks would go to Obama myself. Thoughts?


I was thinking the same, but he seems like a stubborn guy. As far as his supporters, I'm not sure. From the polls I was just looking at, he only has 9% and 8% are unsure. I think Obama will take the majority of the unsure votes (if they vote) because he seems to be a better emotive speaker at times than Hillary; however, after Hill's NH showing, there's no telling. I'm guessing the majority of Edwards' supporters may go to Clinton only because he represents a closer semblance to Clinton than to Obama even though he's been trying to emulate Obama's stances in a lot of the debates.

The important thing is, though, that the primaries are really going to heat up after SC, imo. This is when we'll really see who the candidate will probably be since it has been very close between Obama and Clinton. A true leader should poke through soon.
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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:01 pm

Edwards pulls more working class votes from Clinton than he pulls activist votes from Obama--in my mind, Clinton would benefit in a great way from him dropping out of the race... though, after he got 4% in Nevada, he may already be a non-issue.

By the way, just a thought: Clinton's support amongst Hispanic voters is almost on par with Obama's support among Black voters. That spells the potential for a LOT of western state wins for her to offset his probable wins in the South. I had to chuckle as I saw a good number of members of the Culinary Worker's Union voting for Clinton in Nevada. Thank you, Bill Richardson.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:01 am

I really hope this trend doesn't continue on Feb. 5th. God help us.
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:37 pm

Its an interesting position the dems are in. Hillary would be a perfectly competent president, but gosh the Clintons are slimy. Obama, by way of contrast, is a breath of fresh air. He comes off as very sincere, with new ideas, and he has that 'vision' thing. Unfortunately, he is also a little bit green.

Hillary, imho, is a lot more electable than Obama. Ultimately, its going to be difficult for Americans to pull the lever for someone as inexperienced as Obama to be commander in chief. On the other hand, Obama, perhaps, represents the soul and future of the party. So to me, it will be interesting to see what the Dems want more. Do they want the white house more than their soul? Or vice-versa?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:57 pm

Corth wrote:Do they want the white house more than their soul? Or vice-versa?


I want peace on earth. That's why I'm voting for Hillary.

... And no, I'm not kidding.
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:33 pm

Ok, your going to have to explain that one, Birile. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:51 pm

Corth wrote:Ok, your going to have to explain that one, Birile. :)


Gosh, it seemed pretty obvious to me. :)

I think the world as a whole would be happy to not only see Bush out of office, but to see Clinton become the leader of the free world. She's a tough, smart politician who--despite some characterizations of her from enemies in the US--has a proven record of trying to do what's right, of trying to better the lives of the average person. In essence, she's smart, tough and has a heart. She has established relationships with foreign leaders who will be excited at the prospect of working with the President of the United States again (after 8 years of Bush ignoring them)--and they don't have to worry about whether she's a novice or not (Obama). No one can deny that it would be foolhardy for a foreign entity to cross her and expect no retaliation. Whether Republicans like it or not, most of the 'free' world loves and adores Bill. No matter what anyone says, I think the lady's got him under her thumb and I would be very surprised if he overshadowed her very much in her middle 6 years in office (the first year he'll test the waters and see how far the leash goes, the last year she won't care much and would probably enjoy setting him loose on the critics). In the meantime, he (and his organization) will continue to do a lot of good in the world.

Am I saying peace will reign after her 8 years is up? No. But during that time, I think there will be many opportunities for the US to work with the rest of the world to create a better, more peaceful, global community. As for enemies of the United States, I think she can keep them in check more than the other candidates, thus allowing the rest of the world to work together with less distraction.

Any Republican in office would pretty much just continue to keep the lower class down and will continue the idea of trying to conquer other cultures... unless you're Ron Paul, in which case we won't have a government to speak of.

Obama would look like the new kid on the block and all the global bullies would declare Jan. 20, 2009 a Field Day.

Clinton commands and deserves respect and walks the line between hawk and dove rather well.
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:35 pm

Well said. Hillary does not often inspire such passionate defenses. You almost made me forget how unprincipled and corrupt she is. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:27 pm

Corth wrote:Well said. Hillary does not often inspire such passionate defenses. You almost made me forget how unprincipled and corrupt she is. :)


I actually think she has a very determined set of principles. As for how corrupt she is... well, I beg to differ, but as Obama said in the last debate: "you can't be in politics without getting your hands a little dirty." :)

As for what I said about her, I just read the Op-Ed from RFK's children and they literally touched on everything I admire about Clinton. I wish I had written it myself.
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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:13 am

I forgot to mention cynical and disengenuous. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:27 pm

Tomorrow is the big day. I have a good feeling!
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:03 pm

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8358.html

Interestingly enough, Super Tuesday is being portrayed as a victory for Hillary, yet Obama won more delegates. They're pretty much even right now overall but I think Hillary is in deep trouble. The big coastal limousine liberal states are gone and she hasn't built up a lead. Despite Birile's contention that Hillary represents the working class, her true support has always come from the elite. Its not surprising to me that Obama won the smaller states, but in greater quantity. Hillary needs to really run with this 'victory' theme to demoralize potential Obama voters in the remaining primary states.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:15 pm

Corth wrote:Despite Birile's contention that Hillary represents the working class, her true support has always come from the elite.


*eyebrow*

You mean the "elite" people in households making less than $50,000 a year? The "elite" Medicare crowd? The "elite" women? Or did you mean the "elite" Hispanics?

I feel bad for the downtrodden Obama supporters making over $200K a year with their MBAs with the last name Kennedy. They're always getting sh*t on. :(
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:25 pm

Corth wrote:http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8358.html

Interestingly enough, Super Tuesday is being portrayed as a victory for Hillary, yet Obama won more delegates. They're pretty much even right now overall but I think Hillary is in deep trouble. The big coastal limousine liberal states are gone and she hasn't built up a lead. Despite Birile's contention that Hillary represents the working class, her true support has always come from the elite. Its not surprising to me that Obama won the smaller states, but in greater quantity. Hillary needs to really run with this 'victory' theme to demoralize potential Obama voters in the remaining primary states.


It ended up really well for our boy. All he needed to do was hold on to a 100 delegate margin, and he's done much better than that. Going forward, his campaign has more momentum and (more importantly) more money.
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