Censorship

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Sarvis
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Censorship

Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:44 am

Ah, good. I see Lathander's special breed of stupidity won out and you began censoring players who were trying to make suggestions.

A simple lock wouldn't have sent the correct message I guess. Much better to make sure we know suggestions and discussion are also unwelcome.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:51 am

That thread was completely worthless. I'm glad I logged into the BBS when I did instead of five minutes later, so I could read it in its entirety. You idiots arguing over the use of expletives and blandly pretending to be the MUD morality police got real old, real fast.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:57 am

We stand properly chastised for the one post arguing over expletives amidst several posts about ways to improve the mud.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:04 am

And by "one post" you mean "thirty pages of blithering about Hemingway and Shakespeare."

And by "several posts about ways to improve the mud" you mean "a poll posted by someone who got caught breaking a rule about whether the rule should be changed because people don't want to follow it anymore."
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Postby Gormal » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:46 am

Its been implied that I have a special dislike for Sarvis, which is true... but its because he fails to offer good suggestions for the game rather than a constant stream of pointless arguments and weak solutions. That thread was a train wreck which is why even I left it so early rather than argue with you. Don't go screaming first amendment when its simply pointless.

Sarvis: Not only do you not play now, but you never amounted to anything when you did play. As such, your arguments carry something close to no weight.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:44 pm

The multitude of ideas coming from you is overwhelming Gormal.

Oh wait, you did nothing but try and bitch me out.

Seriously, can you even remember something I suggested 8 years ago? I suggested an entire redesign of the ranger class. Yeah, it was different and maybe not many people liked it... but it was a suggestion for improvement rather than the whinefests we get out of most players.

If I don't play anymore it's because sitting at 3w playing a useless class got boring. I don't expect much has changed, except that with the smaller pbase it sounds like everyone's sitting at 3w waiting to play the game.

Even if it was a "train wreck" there were good ideas posted, and the thread could have been locked instead of deleted. Though I don't know why I'm bothering to point that out, as I'm sure the shelf life of this thread is limited as well.

Welcome to the new Toril, where any complaints, suggestions, ideas or anything other than banal "does X sitll play" threads will be deleted.

Oh, and I apologize for "never amounting to anything" in a free text game where doing so simply involves grinding longer. You've certainly cut me to the quick!


If I'm such a bad person for never surpassing level 36, feel free to simply ignore me. It's a useful skill, trust me. How do you think I deal with Teffie and Lath these days? (Except when I'm drunk, of course.)

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't see you bitching about me when I was helping out with <a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=178386&highlight=#178386">a question you had</a>. Nor do I see you going out of your way to avoid all the political arguments you hate me for having.


<b>Rags</b>, it's funny watching you piss and moan about wannabe moral authorities around here in a post where you're trying to police the mud yourself. Keep it up!
Last edited by Sarvis on Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:54 pm

In before you get this thread locked too.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:44 pm

Yes of course, it was all my fault. I'll be the punching boy for it, no reason not to. The Gormal's of the mud have pre-judged me anyway. It's not as if it were <i>other people</i> arguing about swearing or anything.

But who am I kidding, you're just trying to stir up trouble...
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Postby Tasan » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:29 pm

Yeah, really tough to have prejudice against someone who goes out of their way to argue w/ people.

Boo hoo.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:46 pm

Yes, I've been nothing but a blight on the BBS lately. Just look at all the arguing I've done in the last few... oh wait, I haven't.

But hey, like I said... I'll be the whipping boy. I guess I must have done all that arguing against myself. People like Gormal don't participate in those threads, and Lath, Teffie and Corth would never.

Right?

:roll:


EDIT: I mean, it's not like this thread is now twice as long because of people bitching about me or anything. You want to bitch about the venom and negativity on these boards? Try looking at the people who made this thread go past the first post.
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Re: Censorship

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:Ah, good. I see Lathander's special breed of stupidity won out and you began censoring players who were trying to make suggestions.

A simple lock wouldn't have sent the correct message I guess. Much better to make sure we know suggestions and discussion are also unwelcome.



How about we look at the first post.

I see, in the first line you calling staff a special breed of stupid, and crying out for censorship(which from laths previous post there is apparently none of, if the thread gets moved, and not deleted the higherups will get their chance to read it).

And now the second line of the post. Again, another blatently stupid comment. "Because they moved a post that was falling rapidly(much like htis one), they must not want our ideas! we are unwelcome!, rabble rabble rabble! Whatever.

Really. How about you start a thread that doesn't directly attack, and then I'd have a little more respect for you. This thread will be closed im pretty sure, as you're right about one thing ,and one thing only. The comments that followed the first post have really done this one in.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:15 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yes of course, it was all my fault. I'll be the punching boy for it, no reason not to. The Gormal's of the mud have pre-judged me anyway. It's not as if it were <i>other people</i> arguing about swearing or anything.

But who am I kidding, you're just trying to stir up trouble...

1) Idiotic behavior does not get any less idiotic just because there are more idiots.

2) You will notice I pluralized idiots in my first reply. If you choose to think I'm attacking you personally, so be it. I made a broad statement to several people.

3) I choose to be a positive force on this BBS. I typically stay out of balance/zone threads I know nothing about, but I hop on discussions about long standing policy, new player initiatives, and Forger bashing. And part of my role here on the BBS is occasionally smacking down the people who choose to be negative forces. I've been a part of this game long enough to know how to pick my battles with the staff. If someone wants to start an asinine thread calling out mid-level gods for enforcing rules that aren't open to interpretation, then yes I'm going to backhand them for it. That isn't how you get shit done around here.

I don't care about you, Sarvis. I don't know you from Adam. But I agree with Lathander's choice to cage Thilindel, and I agree with his choice to remove the ensuing flamewar from the public boards. And because you chose to call him a "special breed of stupid" for doing something that actually makes sense, that makes you the idiot in my eyes.

If you or anyone else want to make a rational, venomless thread to discuss the ramifications of removing the multiplayer rule, I'll post my opinion to it. I have my own thoughts, and I'm happy to share them. I agree that lightening the restrictions is an idea that could merit some discussion. But if BBS users choose to use sarcastic polls, four letter words, and insults to the staff to get this point across, then I'm going to continue to write posts like this one.

Any other questions?
- Ragorn
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:53 pm

<b>Arilin: </b> Yes, I insulted Lath. Sorry, but removing threads like that pisses me off, and is unwarranted in this case. It's not as if it was offensive outside of Gormal's behavior and there was content and player discusion in it. But who are we kidding, you won't have more respect for me no matter what. Everyone ignores the threads around here where I try to help with questions, the posts I make with suggestions and ideas (to the point of deleting them) and then jumps on me as the bad guy. Bitch at me some more, then lecture me some more on how to play nice. Please, we all need that lecture don't we?

Maybe next time you can safe yourself some effort and just tell me to fuck off. Works for others, anyway.

<b>Rags</b>: Blaming the players isn't any more positive than blaming the admins, and your Torilmud <Drama> demonstrates that perfectly. It was just as uncomfortable a read as Corth's post, and just as negative.
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Postby Kifle » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:15 pm

I love you too, Rags.
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Postby Botef » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:14 pm

I'm sure glad I took the time to write a page long reply and share my thoughts on the state of affairs of this mud. It is nice to know that my opinion counts and that I'm allowed to have a voice on this mud in a public venue despite other peoples unrelated arguments...oh wait?

Seriously, what is the point in having a public forum to discuss things about the mud if we're not only going to filter anything negative or off topic, but delete everything else in between...What is this, China?

I for one have had enough of trying to express my thoughts only to have them deleted because someone on here can't get along. I live in America so I can express myself, I've played this game because it once cared about its players. I however don't see any purpose in trudging on in an environment where my voice can't even be heard, and where the staff are just as bitter as the players.

This post will probably get deleted because I'm not being 'constructive'. Mahalo.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:24 pm

Botef wrote:I'm sure glad I took the time to write a page long reply and share my thoughts on the state of affairs of this mud. It is nice to know that my opinion counts and that I'm allowed to have a voice on this mud in a public venue despite other peoples unrelated arguments...oh wait?

Seriously, what is the point in having a public forum to discuss things about the mud if we're not only going to filter anything negative or off topic, but delete everything else in between...What is this, China?

I for one have had enough of trying to express my thoughts only to have them deleted because someone on here can't get along. I live in America so I can express myself, I've played this game because it once cared about its players. I however don't see any purpose in trudging on in an environment where my voice can't even be heard, and where the staff are just as bitter as the players.

This post will probably get deleted because I'm not being 'constructive'. Mahalo.


Are you stupid? Because that's all I can possibly fathom.

1. The staff just as bitter as the players? I bet they are. You know why? Because the very small vocal minority do absolsutely NOTHING but call them idiots and say they should quit. Really, how do you think you would be after a decade of people second guessing you, and calling you a moron? Do you ever wonder why staff leave? You ever, EVER stop to consider that we might make them?

2. Like Lath said in another post on this one, or the other, the post didn't get deleted. Your page long opinion will be read (I think he said it was moved?) whatever, it'll get read.

3. Yes. This is a public forum. Do you think that gives you carte blanche(spelling? no idea) to compare this to China? Do you REALLY just go there? I ask again, are you slow? Is your IQ less than 70? What the hell.
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Postby Botef » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:48 pm

Why have a public forum if posts get moved to a 'private' staff only section. What is the point in reading a public forum if posts are snipped and deleted without mention, which does happen on a regular basis. Why bother typing anything if it might just disappear? I didn't see Lath's statement, all I know is the thread I made a hearted attempt to explain my thoughts disappeared. WTF is your problem?

Jebus this place is retarded. Half of you attack anyone critical of the mud or trying to implement change, the other half attack the mud & staff itself - and all of you are nit wit douche bags incapable of having a civil discussion about doing something to make this place better. It is no wonder this place has gone down the toilet.

Yea I played the China card, what the fuck ever. At least I didn't call anyone a Nazi, which has certainly happened to me once or twice. It's a internet message board for crying out loud. STFU.
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Postby Dlur » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:33 pm

Image

I rest my case.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:06 pm

Arilin wrote:How about you start a thread that doesn't directly attack, and then I'd have a little more respect for you.


Arilin wrote:Are you stupid? Because that's all I can possibly fathom.


Pot, meet kettle.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:50 pm

Sarvis wrote:Pot, meet kettle.


I never said I wouldn't start a reply off with that, but never a topic.

And seriously. Even you most likely wouldnt associate this board with China. That's a stretch.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:41 am

*snicker* Fair enough.

Can I compare it to Canada though?

No reason... just the first country I thought of.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:52 am

Image
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:00 am

Sarvis wrote:<b>Rags</b>: Blaming the players isn't any more positive than blaming the admins, and your Torilmud <Drama> demonstrates that perfectly. It was just as uncomfortable a read as Corth's post, and just as negative.

I don't blame "the staff" or "the players." I blame the people who act like idiots, whoever they are. Thilindel got caged for breaking a hard and fast rule. That was his fault. It sucks that there were no Forgers online for him to appeal to. That's their fault. He made a thread calling for the rule to be changed... he was a little sarcastic and a little negative, but I don't really have a problem with that. You (and others) took the opportunity to flame the staff. That's your fault.

Are you seeing a pattern here? I don't really care about your political struggle. I care about the community holding together to keep the game alive. When certain members of the community start acting like dicks, and I think they're being grating enough that they're in danger of either running players away from the game or breaking the spirit of the administration, I step in and kick the shit out of them. That's what I do here. I keep people like you from making people like Lathander delete their /zMUD folders in frustration.

What do you bring to the community? In game or out. How does your presence in the Toril universe make the community a better place?
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:21 am

Ragorn wrote:You (and others) took the opportunity to flame the staff. That's your fault.


I flamed Lath because he said something really stupid, and I was too drunk to ignore him. He had full power to lock the thread and make it go away, instead he called for deletion and provoked a situation. People wouldn't be "acting like idiots" if they felt the forgers were... well, at this point even around.

What do you bring to the community? In game or out. How does your presence in the Toril universe make the community a better place?


I try to help out when people have technical questions, and I try to make suggestions on improving the game when I can. For instance in the multiplay thread, where I advocated multiplay under a certain threshold of players online.

Not that anyone's likely to care or can even see that now.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record I had no idea Thilindel had been caged and was whining about it. As an outside observer, his post just looked like someone making a suggestion for improvement of the MUD. I've argued against multiplay many times, but it sounds far more warranted now to have it in some limited form...
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:56 am

Lathander had no ability to lock this thread, that thread or any other. That is in the realm of the admin sphere, and is an action that Callarduran took.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:06 pm

Sarvis wrote:People wouldn't be "acting like idiots" if they felt the forgers were... well, at this point even around.

Well, they're not. So until they come back, someone has to step up and keep some sense of order around here.

Oh... and for the record? Yes, they would.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record I had no idea Thilindel had been caged and was whining about it. As an outside observer, his post just looked like someone making a suggestion for improvement of the MUD. I've argued against multiplay many times, but it sounds far more warranted now to have it in some limited form...

In the original post of the poll thread (or maybe his first reply, I forget now), Thilindel explained that he used some limited multi either to help himself CR, or to provide transportation for the CR. He got caged for it, and there weren't any Forgers around for him to appeal his punishment to. So he wrote the forum thread.

In the thread, he had some good points about the benefits of allowing multiplay, and the difficulty of accommodating the game's corpse retrieval system when the player base is low. However, it only took about three posts for the thread to devolve into a flamewar. Thilindel's original point was lost, and people used the thread as a soapbox to voice their rants about the rules and the Forgers. Whoever deleted the thread did so because it was worthless, not because they were trying to "silence" the "voice" of the players who were calling out for change.

When you see legitimate threads full of civil discussion being deleted because the Admins don't want you talking about certain things, you can cry censorship. When moderators delete flames, you can try flaming less.
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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:46 pm

balls
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:54 pm

Edited to remove harsh criticism against the admins and forgers. Everyone knows where I stand on the issue... At this point, who really cares..
Last edited by Corth on Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:58 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:People wouldn't be "acting like idiots" if they felt the forgers were... well, at this point even around.

Well, they're not. So until they come back, someone has to step up and keep some sense of order around here.

Oh... and for the record? Yes, they would.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record I had no idea Thilindel had been caged and was whining about it. As an outside observer, his post just looked like someone making a suggestion for improvement of the MUD. I've argued against multiplay many times, but it sounds far more warranted now to have it in some limited form...

In the original post of the poll thread (or maybe his first reply, I forget now), Thilindel explained that he used some limited multi either to help himself CR, or to provide transportation for the CR. He got caged for it, and there weren't any Forgers around for him to appeal his punishment to. So he wrote the forum thread.

In the thread, he had some good points about the benefits of allowing multiplay, and the difficulty of accommodating the game's corpse retrieval system when the player base is low. However, it only took about three posts for the thread to devolve into a flamewar. Thilindel's original point was lost, and people used the thread as a soapbox to voice their rants about the rules and the Forgers. Whoever deleted the thread did so because it was worthless, not because they were trying to "silence" the "voice" of the players who were calling out for change.

When you see legitimate threads full of civil discussion being deleted because the Admins don't want you talking about certain things, you can cry censorship. When moderators delete flames, you can try flaming less.


Seriously, were you reading the same thread? Over half the posts were constructive criticism and ideas for making multiplay work. One drunken flame by me hardly means the thread devolved into a flamewar in three posts when most of the people were actually discussing the rule.

I guess by your logic any time anyone is flamed in a thread the entire thing should be deleted regardless of it's actual content.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:36 pm

Sarvis wrote:Seriously, were you reading the same thread? Over half the posts were constructive criticism and ideas for making multiplay work. One drunken flame by me hardly means the thread devolved into a flamewar in three posts when most of the people were actually discussing the rule.

Really? You don't remember the discussion about how curse words are the most expressive words in the english language, and people should be allowed to use them for emphasis? And all the stupid crud about how Shakespeare didn't need to say "Wherefor the fuck art thou Romeo," and then the point that "wherefor" means "why" and not "where"? Or maybe you stopped reading before the thread really went off the rails.

And finally, comments about the game that are framed with insults toward the staff aren't "constructive criticism." That's called bitching. You know the difference between constructive and bitching. If you want to post a helpful thread, nobody's stopping you, and nobody's going to delete or lock it unless people START bitching.

I can't help but notice that you've done a lot of talking about how much this issue means to you, but you haven't actually posted a civil thread about it yet.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:47 pm

Ragorn wrote:Really? You don't remember the discussion about how curse words are the most expressive words in the english language, and people should be allowed to use them for emphasis? And all the stupid crud about how Shakespeare didn't need to say "Wherefor the fuck art thou Romeo," and then the point that "wherefor" means "why" and not "where"? Or maybe you stopped reading before the thread really went off the rails.


Really went off the rails? It amounted to all of 3 posts, which if you count my insult to Lath and Gormal's overreaction brings the total "flameware ratio" to 1/5 of the thread.

This one, however, is almost nothing but flames and yet hasn't been locked, deleted or disparaged by the staff. Since I'm incapable of interpreting the will of the staff, how about if you tell us what that means?


Oh, and by the way do you recall what staff USED to do in such a situation? There's been several times where Shevy split the flame war out of a thread so actual discussion could continue. That wasn't done in this case, which seems like a VERY clear sign they didn't want us talking.



And finally, comments about the game that are framed with insults toward the staff aren't "constructive criticism." That's called bitching. You know the difference between constructive and bitching. If you want to post a helpful thread, nobody's stopping you, and nobody's going to delete or lock it unless people START bitching.


You'd never make it as a drill seargent...

I can't help but notice that you've done a lot of talking about how much this issue means to you, but you haven't actually posted a civil thread about it yet.


No, I haven't. I've said I had ideas, and posted them. Seeing stuff get deleted and censored is the issue I care about, the multiplay issue is just the flashpoint here. It was a place where I had suggestions and ideas to help, and which the staff removed and immediately discounted without thought, discussion or comment beyond a simple "no."
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Postby Callarduran » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:07 pm

Sarvis, the reason the thread was deleted was because it was a flamefest. There were very few posts that had any thought behind them, though I will admit that the ones that had been thought out had some good information. There are a number of reasons why it was removed beyond the flamefest issue, though not one of those reasons was because I, or anyone else, do not want discussion. There was very little discussion there.

The stance of the staff is that multiplaying is not a route where we are going. Could this change? Sure, but I doubt it. Is it going to change because of that thread? I dare say, it actually damaged the intent of getting multiplaying allowed due to the flames, the accusations, and everything else. It was removed because it had no redeeming value in remaining open. Your ratio of 1/5 is indeed correct, except it was in favor of the flames, not of ideas.

As Ragorn stated, if you want to begin a civil discourse on multiplaying, go right ahead. If it devolves like the last one did, I will not hesitate to delete, lock, or otherwise edit it. It is what a moderator does. Deal with it.

As to this thread, it is coming very close to being locked. And I say this to anyone who is posting here, not just Sarvis. Keep the personal attacks out of it, keep the tone civil.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:27 pm

And that wraps up this thread. Moving on.
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Postby Pril » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Sarvis and Ragorn smell bad!

In before the lock!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:15 pm

venis pagina
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:31 pm

That almost sounds like a good character name...
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Postby shalath » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:10 am

What a great thread to read on April Fool's day. Only the dates are all wrong, surely this was all posted in the early hours of this morning...
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:13 am

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:44 am

It was, actually... but what's your point? It was and, frankly, still is a valid concern despite admin hand waving. Of course, we can do nothing but trust him that it was a flamefest since we can't even look at the thread anymore.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:59 pm

I think Sarvis is right, on all counts.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:54 pm

Ragorn wrote:I think Sarvis is right, on all counts.


I respect Teflor's opinion.
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Postby ssar » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:54 pm

Image
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:13 am

Clearly, Teflor is baiting Sarvis again. Oh that Teflor. He sure gets on my nerves.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:07 pm

Holy crap, I think if you put all 6 of those people together, you come up with a full set of teeth!
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Postby Corth » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:40 pm

They must be from Australia
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Larem » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:45 pm

GO NASCAR! WOOHOO!!!!!!!!
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:25 pm

Dlur wrote:Image

I rest my case.


Society is weird. If the person who created that as a joke (not Dlur personally but whoever thought of the idea and its saying) had a special needs child, this type of casual detachment from humanity wouldn't have happened.
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:13 am

Its funny, get over it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:09 am

Corth wrote:Its funny, get over it.


Perhaps it would be easier to get over if it weren't for the constant reminder.

But then again, most good jokes are made at the expense of another. It just happens to cost some people a lot more.
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