It needs to be said

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:37 pm

Osheara wrote:To say that the game is floundering and essentially dying because the 'staff don't fix it' is rediculous. How about half of you 'old school' players who take the time to bitch and complain on the boards start listing off what you have done the past several years to help encourage the community! I mean...really.

You say 'oh, we told the staff to do this', but what have YOU done? I see 2-3 leaders pushing to do consistant zones, a handful of people (as much as I disagree with the process) trying to do RP. one or two people trying to help the few lowbies that play.


You're preaching this to people that spent the better part of a decade pointing out obvious flaws in gameplay for the BENEFIT of all who play. Ragorn, Corth, Dartan, Gormal and plenty of other have made suggestions and put in time and energy and been rewarded with... a dead game.

Osheara wrote:As much as we sit there and go 'I don't have time', it's not a matter of not having time, it's a matter of caring enough to make time. A few people on these boards obviously don't care all that much or they might make the effort in game instead of sitting on their high horses outside of the game and complaining about the few who are still at least trying.

Gormal...it's nice that you are back and all. Again. It's great that you are going to offer up your time to try and do things in the game. Again. But do you really think that actively attacking Shev's position in the staff and his work is going to do anything to help the community?


You're again, calling out someone(again!) who has spent literally a decade playing this game, supporting those in charge(with a few exceptions), and making the game RUN. An active member of the community who(for better or worse) has ignited passion in other members of the community to increase their own role within the community.

I mean really, how much time invested and effort wasted are you looking to see before you start asking questions yourself of the staff? Never? You fight for something you believe in, as do the rest of us... Those of us still lurking in the dark loved or still love this game for what it has been and for what it could be. You can choose to ignore that fact and call this an "attack", but really it's a wake-up call(one that has been ringing for the better half of a decade now).


Osheara wrote:I've always said that the boards are a reflection of the people who play, even if it is not the voice of many, and posts like this will ONLY serve to turn more people away. Is that what you people truely want? because that is what you are driving at with every post, every insult, every bickering remark that you make to drive the staff and players apart from each other.


We're long past the days where random people might drop by the BBS and see the flame-ridden posting of Corth, Sarvis and Teflor arguing political semantics. No random people are stopping by. The staff has done more damage by their actions(and through their inaction) than the players could ever have done. Politicians get roasted for operating a campaign upon a platform and then jumping off the platform as soon as their hand hits the bible. Why shouldn't we do the same for anyone that promises and promises and promises and never delivers?

Osheara wrote:If you feel there are problems, organize something to adress them if you think that just 'posting' is going unheard. If you think everyone feels the same way, ask them. If you want to be 'involved' then for the love of god, get involved and stop sitting on the sidelines where it's safe.

And for the love of the game, for those coming back you can't just assume that you will get the results you want right away. The game does not revolve around your time limits.


Ragorn wrote perhaps the best introduction guide to the game that will ever be written. It was without a doubt the most brutal waste of someone's effort to completely ignore it.

Gormal has spurred RP on numerous occasions, been active in the high-end of the game AS WELL AS taking charge in welcoming new players here. His reward? Not even an answer when he asks a question.

There is a litany of other players and deeds I could list that have gone by the wayside in the pursuit of someone's "ideal".

Osheara wrote:But really, I guess I'm just repeating the unsung choir. Again. I'm sure you all will find some way to insult me and tell me I'm wrong, (because no one can stand up to all of your 'greatnesses'). Just keep up with the snide remarks and bickering. Eventually you will get them to break just like you want.


This isn't about breaking anyone, it's about answers to simple questions. If I'm in the employ of someone and he chooses to take a leave of absence without my knowledge or anyone else's in the company and chooses to disregard the company from that point on, would we not have the right to ask where that person had gone, why they were gone or what should be done in the future?

You see vitriol and sarcasm, venom and veiled deceit. You want to see these things. I see tired players, who've battled this far by tooth and nail, who want to see that they didn't waste their lives fighting for someone to throw it all away.

The beauty is, neither of us is truly wrong or right at the end of the day as long as the silence continues.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:11 am

Check her guild tag Tasan.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:23 am

avak wrote:I anticipated such a reply.


And you didn't address it ahead of time? :\
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:27 am

The argument goes that people complaining here about gameplay issues scare away new players. What idiocy.

Its the gameplay issues that are scaring away new players, not the people who are trying to get those issues fixed.

Its not just a logically incorrect argument, its a corrupt one as well. The premise is that we can hide our inadequacies from others in order to induce them to play our mud under false pretenses. Just sweep things under the carpet long enough to get them hooked. Essentially bait and switch.

Personally, I am happy that critcism is considered valuable among normal people. If I want to buy something on Amazon.com I read the reviews. I'd like to see some company with a shitty product ask Amazon to remove reviews because its costing them business. Thats the shady argument that people in this thread such as Osheara, Ashiwi, Ambar, and Arilin are promoting.

It sure would be nice if poor quality could go away by imposing silence. If nobody is allowed to criticize something, then its not really bad! Comrade!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:11 am

Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:
Tasan wrote:
Osheara wrote:




It's like watching two time periods clash.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:12 am

Corth wrote:The argument goes that people complaining here about gameplay issues scare away new players. What idiocy.


Complaining players DO scare away players. Very much so.

People can smell poor morale a mile away.

The only idiocy is thinking you can do something about it by complaining about people complaining.

Kudos to Corth for furthering idiocity to the next level by complaining about people who are complaining about people who are complaining.

Kudos to me too. I rock.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:45 am

Constructive suggestion is wonderful and I am sure welcomed .. Criticism, flame throwing and finger pointing is about as useless as logging into a game to be the relo target.

I dont think anyone ever said that the people who make the majority of the suggestions here are less than skilled players who contribute a hell of a lot to the game in general ..

Demanding change just because you think it should happen just isnt the way to go. Suggesting change as a better way of doing things may be more appropriate .. Suggesting changes to make things better in one thread, then trashing the game and the people who run it in another is counter-productive .. why would someone bust their butt to make changes for you then get crapped on in another thread, hehe. Grow thick skin? Sure .. I still say go play another game if you hate it so much here now that you have nothing but trash to say about it. I have been a casual muddder for about three years now, but I still do play, I see the new zones and new items and dont think it is as bad as some of you make it out to be. Then again I am not as smrt as some of you are :)

Dartan is perhaps one of the better questors this game has seen, hands down .. well other than the Ross' or the Lilithelle's .. funny they dont come here and trash the mud .. they play it and make all the difference .. it is all in presentation, and if you can say nothing has changed from suggestions you made (not you brian) then you are dead wrong ... but they must not be smrt either because they still play here .. Or maybe their suggestions are made via email or mudmail .. who knows

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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:48 am

Teflor apparently walked right into my idiot trap :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:52 am

Sorry Ambar, the game has been shit for a really long time. Thats why all the good players are gone, leaving people like you, Ashiwi, Osheara, etc to defend the honor of your lords in hiding. Call this a flame if you want.. but guess what. Its true.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:56 am

Corth wrote:Teflor apparently walked right into my idiot trap :)


I apologize for bumping into you, sir.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:58 am

The Real Difference:

A motivated, engaged, and active staff, working to add content, character, and new features on a continual basis and producing results.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:23 am

Dude... I was going to stay out of this, but since people only see what they want to see, I'm going to point out YET AGAIN that I wasn't defending the Forgers' absence. I wasn't attacking it, either. It's noted, it's stored, and I have my own opinion on it. It's your choice to see things how you will.

You think I have to have my head up their collective asses to be appalled by some of the vindictive sniping in this thread? Seriously... is that what it's supposed to take?

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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:30 am

Complaining about gameplay pushes away new players

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board ... 0017&sid=1
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:35 am

Kifle wrote:Complaining about gameplay pushes away new players

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board ... 0017&sid=1


They don't have to counter that with millions in advertising and marketing at all....
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:58 am

Millions in advertising and marketing cannot make a shit product into a succesful one. One of the current American Idol contestants can attest to that. MCA spent over 2 million dollars promoting Carly Smithson's album in 2001, only to see it sell less than 400 copies. Look it up. Or how about all those failed launches of new automobile models over the years. It takes tens of millions of dollars to develop such a product, many millions more to market them.. and many of them last only a single year. Sitcoms - most of them fail miserably.

People aren't stupid, Teflor. World of Warcraft wasn't succesful because of advertising. It was succesful because it was good.

By the way, I was right when I used to call you a closet socialist. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:07 am

WoW takes feedback for a ton of things and implements them. Advertising does play a big role in their current success, but word of mouth and great gameplay is what makes a good product succeed. FFXI and WoW had about the same amount of advertisement when they were both released in NA and look at which one is succeeding.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:11 am

Corth wrote:People aren't stupid, Teflor. World of Warcraft wasn't succesful because of advertising. It was succesful because it was good.


Corth, your problem is that you make way too many assumptions. World of Warcraft is not a successful product - it's crap. The only thing that's successful about the product is the fact that it turned a profit.

If you want to look at it in terms of profit, this mud will never be a success.

That being said, WoW is crap. It was simply the first unified product to hit a fresh market, backed by a major vendor that had a good reputation copying an existing business model.

Finally, their advertising does help to counter the fact that they lose thousands of customers on a regular basis, nevermind the fact that they've spent well over 2 million on marketing.. If you haven't noticed, the turnover for players on WoW are about as long as they are for new players on TorilMUD.


Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:22 am

Dalar wrote:Advertising does play a big role in their current success, but word of mouth and great gameplay is what makes a good product succeed. FFXI and WoW had about the same amount of advertisement when they were both released in NA and look at which one is succeeding.


I never played WOW. Dartan says the gameplay is good. Teflor says it isn't. Who to believe?!!?

Heh :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:02 am

The high council of TorilMUD meets in its sacred, secret chambers one last time.

"These bastards have tormented us, hounded us, and nothing we did was ever good enough for them."

So low grumblings went, and were agreed upon. The room was met with resolve.

"So, how do we punish them?"

Silence filled the chamber, for it was unthinkable that these bastards could be punished or their miserable lives made somehow more miserable. It was possible that these idiots wouldn't even know that they were being punished, and it was painfully clear that they would never learn the lesson intended.

"There is one way."

All eyes turned towards the solitary voice. Could it be true? Was there hope for sanity and intelligence after all?

"We could simply leave them there to be amongst each other."

A fist was slammed down on the table. Others nodded and mummered in agreement. One voice in the corner uttered, "pure genius!"

It was so that they left the realms, to punish those mortal fools that destroyed the realms they had worked so hard to create. They left with the satisfaction that Dartan would do the work of punishing all who stayed, while they punished themselves. The cries of agony by Corth, Ambar, and Sarvis could be heard throughout the realms as they realized that no matter how hard they tried to get attention, they were never deserving in the first place.

"Fools."
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:08 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Corth wrote:People aren't stupid, Teflor. World of Warcraft wasn't succesful because of advertising. It was succesful because it was good.


You're trolling. WoW was a successful product. It's hit mainstream culture harder than EQ ever did. It revived what was considered a stagnant genre of crappy games (EQ/EQ2, AC/AC2, DAoC, UO, AO Star Wars, the Korean MMOs etc.). Company execs at one point were saying it would take 500m+ to make a product that would beat it. For its genre, WoW left a mark similar to what the Halo series has done for console fps, Guitar Hero for the music video game genre, and Final Fantasy for the RPG genre.
Corth, your problem is that you make way too many assumptions. World of Warcraft is not a successful product - it's crap. The only thing that's successful about the product is the fact that it turned a profit.

If you want to look at it in terms of profit, this mud will never be a success.

That being said, WoW is crap. It was simply the first unified product to hit a fresh market, backed by a major vendor that had a good reputation copying an existing business model.


Fresh market? The MMO market was a dying market. Everquest, Everquest 2, Asheron's Call/AC2, DAoC, UO, AO, Star Wars Galaxies etc. were all mediocre games. If you're talking about the casual MMO market then maybe you have something. Even then, EQ2 was casual in some aspects.

Major vendor? What about MS and Sony?

Good rep: fuck yea they did.

Existing business model: I guess all those new sodas are crap because they're just copying anyone who's added water and random sugars.

Play WoW to 70 and get gear. The constant satisfaction of getting gear and progressing a character is what makes WoW a good game. You're right in that it's a copied business model. You could go back to RPGs or even trace it back to human chemistry. People like seeing shit get built up.

Finally, their advertising does help to counter the fact that they lose thousands of customers on a regular basis, nevermind the fact that they've spent well over 2 million on marketing.. If you haven't noticed, the turnover for players on WoW are about as long as they are for new players on TorilMUD.



Do you really think people are going to buy WoW because of some dumbass commercial they see on TV? Ask anyone who's started playing an MMO and they'll usually say "oh my friend was playing it so I gave it a shot" or "it's like <insert>" so I gave it a shot.

Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.
Last edited by Dalar on Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:15 am

Corth wrote:
Dalar wrote:Advertising does play a big role in their current success, but word of mouth and great gameplay is what makes a good product succeed. FFXI and WoW had about the same amount of advertisement when they were both released in NA and look at which one is succeeding.


I never played WOW. Dartan says the gameplay is good. Teflor says it isn't. Who to believe?!!?

Heh :)


neither. play it yourself. opinionated assholes basically cancel each other out, like diet coke and a candy bar
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:30 am

Teyaha wrote:
Corth wrote:
Dalar wrote:Advertising does play a big role in their current success, but word of mouth and great gameplay is what makes a good product succeed. FFXI and WoW had about the same amount of advertisement when they were both released in NA and look at which one is succeeding.


I never played WOW. Dartan says the gameplay is good. Teflor says it isn't. Who to believe?!!?

Heh :)


neither. play it yourself. opinionated assholes basically cancel each other out, like diet coke and a candy bar


Opinionated retards take good pictures.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:36 am

Dalar wrote:
Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.


You're such a troll you must have a hard time seeing anything else. You're just jealous because I wasn't paying attention to you. Don't you see your honorable mention in the last post I made?

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 751#186751

I rather think the posts that followed tend to bolster this theory.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:40 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.


You're such a troll you must have a hard time seeing anything else. You're just jealous because I was paying attention to you. Don't you see your honorable mention in the last post I made?

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 751#186751

I rather think the posts that followed tend to bolster this theory.


I just punish retards like you with the truth.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:41 am

In the end, Gormal and I will be right, Teflor and Teyaha will be idiots. /end thread
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:42 am

Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.


You're such a troll you must have a hard time seeing anything else. You're just jealous because I was paying attention to you. Don't you see your honorable mention in the last post I made?

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 751#186751

I rather think the posts that followed tend to bolster this theory.


I just punish retards like you with the truth.


No, you punish everyone around you with your retarded stupidity.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:42 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.


You're such a troll you must have a hard time seeing anything else. You're just jealous because I was paying attention to you. Don't you see your honorable mention in the last post I made?

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 751#186751

I rather think the posts that followed tend to bolster this theory.


I just punish retards like you with the truth.


No, I punish everyone around my fat ass with my retarded stupidity.


fixed
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:43 am

Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Don't kid yourself. You couldn't spot a socialist if it tried to share its stuff with you.


Looks like a troll, posts like one. I can at least spot those.


You're such a troll you must have a hard time seeing anything else. You're just jealous because I was paying attention to you. Don't you see your honorable mention in the last post I made?

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 751#186751

I rather think the posts that followed tend to bolster this theory.


I just punish retards like you with the truth.


No, I punish everyone around my fat ass with my retarded stupidity.


fixed


It's too bad there's not a thing in existance that would fix you, except perhaps duct tape over your hands and mouth.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:44 am

teflor the ranger wrote:No, you punish everyone around you with your retarded stupidity.


At least use good English when you call someone stupid.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:46 am

Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:No, you punish everyone around you with your retarded stupidity.


At least use good English when you call someone stupid.


Preserved for posterity.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:53 am

Dalar wrote:In the end, Gormal and I will be right, Teflor and Teyaha will be idiots. /end thread


right about what? that the game is failing?

OH MY FUCKING GOD THAT'S A NEWS FLASH!!

you are SO smart dalar. none of the other players to ever log into this game clearly have never noticed any problems with the game at any time. clearly.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:18 am

Well I've played WoW further than Dartan or anyone else here did (he never delved into PvP where I rated top 10 in the country), and I'm saying that the gameplay was generally sound. By every definition, WoW was and is a complete success. I don't see anything wrong with using a successful MMO as a benchmark for Toril even if that does set the bar far too high. I want to believe that Teflor is the greatest fakeposter in the history of the world... I want to believe.

I know that this topic is very controversial, but I'd like to see the staffers man up and post in here. Even if you're going to disagree, this thread brings up issues that obviously are hot on the minds of players here and should be addressed. Shev obviously hasn't taken my challenge in the OP and I doubt he ever will, so lets get some of the others in here.
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Postby shalath » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:20 am

teflor the ranger wrote:The high council of TorilMUD meets in its sacred, secret chambers one last time.

"These bastards have tormented us, hounded us, and nothing we did was ever good enough for them."

So low grumblings went, and were agreed upon. The room was met with resolve.

"So, how do we punish them?"

Silence filled the chamber, for it was unthinkable that these bastards could be punished or their miserable lives made somehow more miserable. It was possible that these idiots wouldn't even know that they were being punished, and it was painfully clear that they would never learn the lesson intended.

"There is one way."

All eyes turned towards the solitary voice. Could it be true? Was there hope for sanity and intelligence after all?

"We could simply leave them there to be amongst each other."

A fist was slammed down on the table. Others nodded and mummered in agreement. One voice in the corner uttered, "pure genius!"

It was so that they left the realms, to punish those mortal fools that destroyed the realms they had worked so hard to create. They left with the satisfaction that Dartan would do the work of punishing all who stayed, while they punished themselves. The cries of agony by Corth, Ambar, and Sarvis could be heard throughout the realms as they realized that no matter how hard they tried to get attention, they were never deserving in the first place.

"Fools."


What a great post. Someone give this guy an Artifact.
[Profile edited by Board Admin. If you can't be civil, we'll fix it for you. -ed]
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:23 am

Gormal wrote:Well I've played WoW further than Dartan or anyone else here did (he never delved into PvP where I rated top 10 in the country), and I'm saying that the gameplay was generally sound. By every definition, WoW was and is a complete success. I don't see anything wrong with using a successful MMO as a benchmark for Toril even if that does set the bar far too high. I want to believe that Teflor is the greatest fakeposter in the history of the world... I want to believe.

I know that this topic is very controversial, but I'd like to see the staffers man up and post in here. Even if you're going to disagree, this thread brings up issues that obviously are hot on the minds of players here and should be addressed. Shev obviously hasn't taken my challenge in the OP and I doubt he ever will, so lets get some of the others in here.


I participated in beta, retail, alpha/beta tbc, tbc bleeding edge, and was in some top-rated teams (teams I participated in briefly were top 5 in the few weeks I had time to play) vs community-known players...
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:29 am

My only response to this is: I tried.

I'm not the most charismatic or persuasive forum user. I can be brash, abrasive, and downright intolerable... and yes, I was much, much worse years ago when I actually played the game. That said, I put a lot of hours into trying to make the game a better and more hospitable place.

I tried for years to drastically improve the new player experience in this game. I railed against stupid, frustrating game elements that made life impossible for low level characters. A lot of the things I yelled the loudest did get implemented, eventually. Magic missile had its damage upped, fumbles were removed, spell fails were disabled. But it took years... over ten years, in some cases. And it wasn't because of anything I said or did, at least not directly. The changes happened when they happened, regardless of my effort.

I wrote about 70% of a newbie zone, before Scardale went in. I ran up against a wall with TEdit, and I needed help. I emailed Cyric about half a dozen times over six months, and never got a response. I posted on the BBS a couple times, but I couldn't get the answers I needed (and for some, I couldn't even ask the questions without giving away quest information). I eventually abandoned the zone.

I wrote the FAQ that currently exists in the game back when Miax ran the place. It took two years and a change of Forgers for it to ever get put into the game files. I never even got a response from my emails and mmails until I posted the thing in its entirety on the BBS.

And in-game, my guild was designed to offer the uncliqued players a place to play and zone. Wanderlust wasn't bashing down Tiamat's door, but we were a solid community of players that made people feel at home in a very cliquey and elitist zoning atmosphere. The guild was very successful, and I think a lot of people got a lot of fun out of it.

And yet, here we are. I quit about six months after Sojourn 3 came online. I played Shevy-Toril for about two months, but I never got back into it. Because I see glaring faults in the game, huge ravines that suck up new players and ruin my fun, and I know from experience that nothing will ever be done to fix them. So I went through the five step process that all veterans do when they get fed up with Toril:

1. Constructive criticism
2. Frustrated criticism and flaming
3. Quitting the game
4. Bitter jabs at the staff and the people who still play
5. Acceptance that Toril is not the game for me

You can see it play out over and over again. Sometimes people get sucked back in after they quit, and they start the process all over. Sometimes people get stuck, particularly on steps 2 and 4. But the thing is, nobody who quits ever comes back for long, because all those things that made you quit in the first place are still here. The gods are still secretive. Changes are still glacial. Enforcement is still uneven and sometimes heavy handed. These things will never change, and so people who have gotten frustrated in the past will continue to do so every time they come back to play. It's why I've never seriously returned to Toril since my departure... I recognize that I won't make it, because none of my core gripes have changed in the slightest.

It's not because I didn't try.

It's because I tried with everything I had, and I accomplished nothing.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:35 am

Ragorn wrote:And yet, here we are. I quit about six months after Sojourn 3 came online. I played Shevy-Toril for about two months, but I never got back into it. Because I see glaring faults in the game, huge ravines that suck up new players and ruin my fun, and I know from experience that nothing will ever be done to fix them. So I went through the five step process that all veterans do when they get fed up with Toril:

1. Constructive criticism
2. Frustrated criticism and flaming
3. Quitting the game
4. Bitter jabs at the staff and the people who still play
5. Acceptance that Toril is not the game for me


Sadly, it is repeated every comeback.

1. http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=
2. Just about any thread. FK and GD come to mind.
3. Me playing PK MUDs
4. This thread
5. May 17th when AoC is out.

Gormal:

1. That one thread where he talks about certain fixes to the game.
2. This thread
3. May 20th hopefully.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:03 am

Ragorn wrote:My only response to this is: I tried.

I'm not the most charismatic or persuasive forum user. I can be brash, abrasive, and downright intolerable... and yes, I was much, much worse years ago when I actually played the game. That said, I put a lot of hours into trying to make the game a better and more hospitable place.

I tried for years to drastically improve the new player experience in this game. I railed against stupid, frustrating game elements that made life impossible for low level characters. A lot of the things I yelled the loudest did get implemented, eventually. Magic missile had its damage upped, fumbles were removed, spell fails were disabled. But it took years... over ten years, in some cases. And it wasn't because of anything I said or did, at least not directly. The changes happened when they happened, regardless of my effort.

I wrote about 70% of a newbie zone, before Scardale went in. I ran up against a wall with TEdit, and I needed help. I emailed Cyric about half a dozen times over six months, and never got a response. I posted on the BBS a couple times, but I couldn't get the answers I needed (and for some, I couldn't even ask the questions without giving away quest information). I eventually abandoned the zone.

I wrote the FAQ that currently exists in the game back when Miax ran the place. It took two years and a change of Forgers for it to ever get put into the game files. I never even got a response from my emails and mmails until I posted the thing in its entirety on the BBS.

And in-game, my guild was designed to offer the uncliqued players a place to play and zone. Wanderlust wasn't bashing down Tiamat's door, but we were a solid community of players that made people feel at home in a very cliquey and elitist zoning atmosphere. The guild was very successful, and I think a lot of people got a lot of fun out of it.

And yet, here we are. I quit about six months after Sojourn 3 came online. I played Shevy-Toril for about two months, but I never got back into it. Because I see glaring faults in the game, huge ravines that suck up new players and ruin my fun, and I know from experience that nothing will ever be done to fix them. So I went through the five step process that all veterans do when they get fed up with Toril:

1. Constructive criticism
2. Frustrated criticism and flaming
3. Quitting the game
4. Bitter jabs at the staff and the people who still play
5. Acceptance that Toril is not the game for me

You can see it play out over and over again. Sometimes people get sucked back in after they quit, and they start the process all over. Sometimes people get stuck, particularly on steps 2 and 4. But the thing is, nobody who quits ever comes back for long, because all those things that made you quit in the first place are still here. The gods are still secretive. Changes are still glacial. Enforcement is still uneven and sometimes heavy handed. These things will never change, and so people who have gotten frustrated in the past will continue to do so every time they come back to play. It's why I've never seriously returned to Toril since my departure... I recognize that I won't make it, because none of my core gripes have changed in the slightest.

It's not because I didn't try.

It's because I tried with everything I had, and I accomplished nothing.


i and many others are well aware of what you went through ragorn. nobody blames you for quitting the game after all of it happened.

the game has always been punishing to new players, but there is an equally vocal number that always disagreed with you and didnt want that hardcore part of the game changed in any way. it could be that the gods at the time were simply placating you - which if true is sad since you did put in a lot of work - but who knows for sure?

i have my own horror stories in dealings with the imms during toril 1. not the same level, but retarded nonetheless.

i have truly enjoyed the bandaid fixes and the most recent removal of fumbling. they are steps in the right direction to help really new players get ahead - but it may just be a too little, too late deal now. the sheer number of english translated mmorpg's on the market is staggering, and soo many are free. fuck you can play eve free now if you can farm up 170 million isk in a 30 day period.

i've gone through that list quite a few times myself, and not just on this MUD. i've built zones for other MUD's and help develop them (although most likely not on the same level as your effort) and can certainly empathize(sp?) with your situation. but my question is this - why are you still on the bbs? isnt that a bit like trying to hang on to an old girlfriend who's married with kids now?
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:07 am

This was probably his first big MMO Teyaha. I'm sure this game and solid community was the starting point into the MMO genre for many of us and will always hold a small place in our hearts. I certainly remember leveling up my first paladin and ranger before realizing they sucked back in the day. In fact, I remember the way my bedroom was set up, playing on a old ass computer on dial-up watching Virtuosity those nights I would explore UM as a paladin and do exp on my ranger in podville.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:09 am

And really, bringing disgruntled players who aren't being productive is great for the community. Weren't you all happy those 3 years I didn't provide feedback for this game because I was playing WoW?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Gormal » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:55 am

Teyaha wrote:i have truly enjoyed the bandaid fixes and the most recent removal of fumbling.


Have you really? The other day when you were fighting on water with your uncursed weapon you enjoyed it?
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:43 pm

Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:No, you punish everyone around you with your retarded stupidity.


At least use good English when you call someone stupid.


Haven't you learned what happens when you argue with Teflor? Have you not witnessed my example? You'll only be dragged into the mud with him.

Just. Don't. Do it.
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
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Postby Botef » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:16 pm

Hey Brian, where do you buy your bait at? You seem to be luring in a lot. :x
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
// Post Count +1
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:38 pm

Gormal wrote:
Teyaha wrote:i have truly enjoyed the bandaid fixes and the most recent removal of fumbling.


Have you really? The other day when you were fighting on water with your uncursed weapon you enjoyed it?


fumbling is why i have cursed every weapon my melee oriented chars have ever owned in this game as far back as toril 1
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Teyaha wrote:
Gormal wrote:
Teyaha wrote:i have truly enjoyed the bandaid fixes and the most recent removal of fumbling.


Have you really? The other day when you were fighting on water with your uncursed weapon you enjoyed it?


fumbling is why i have cursed every weapon my melee oriented chars have ever owned in this game as far back as toril 1


Apparently, you can quest a restoration for your cursed items.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:28 pm

already gave away the few weapons i had when i traded all of my hitter gear early last year. all i have left if a couple cursed flambys for my wights - which a friendly shaman decursed for me. good enough. that weapon is all about it's proc anyway
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Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:16 am

Thanks for sharing, I can only assume you're working on your postcount. Stay on topic or gtfo.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:08 am

In before the lock!
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:11 am

Gormal wrote:Thanks for sharing, I can only assume you're working on your postcount. Stay on topic or gtfo.


nice one asshole

you asked me about fighting over water. i answered. someone else asked another question, i answered

i'll keep posting just to piss you off now
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Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:13 am

What we really need is more people in the admin sphere. Policing the last remnants of the population really contributes to the game.
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:18 am

they appear to be policing you just fine

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