It needs to be said

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:55 am

Corth wrote:Ashiwi,

I got to say.. you have been pretty useless here for quite some time...


Corth,

You're irascible, balding, irredeemable, foul-smelling, miserable, antagonistic, conceited, humorless and didactic...

And that's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me!

I LOVE YOU TOO!!!
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:19 am

Image
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:52 am

Ashiwi wrote:
Corth wrote:Ashiwi,

I got to say.. you have been pretty useless here for quite some time...


Corth,

You're irascible, balding, irredeemable, foul-smelling, miserable, antagonistic, conceited, humorless and didactic...

And that's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me!

I LOVE YOU TOO!!!


Holy shit, Ashiwi.. you sound like my wife! :)

You forgot about the small pipi!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby ssar » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:53 am

Teyaha wrote:shev had a kid..


Oooh, I frogot about that!
Of course.
That's it.
A kid is like a neuclear blast - heavy shockwave for a long time, and fallout for an even much longer time.

Oh, and Ash quoted "didactic" or something? Sounds cool, I won't look it up on dictionary.com, but it sounds appropriate anyways.
BEER
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:08 am

Corth wrote:You forgot about the small pipi!


I didn't. Btw, you still owe me $50, Spitzer.
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Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

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Postby shalath » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:25 pm

Bane wrote:This needs to stay constructive.

Thank you.

Sorry, "stay"?
[Profile edited by Board Admin. If you can't be civil, we'll fix it for you. -ed]
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Postby Bane » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:40 pm

shalath wrote:Sorry, "stay"?


Yes. Stay.

If you wish to post your opinion, I encourage you to, and this message goes out to everyone in this thread. Either stay on topic, and do not continue to let this dissolve into a flame fest or this post may have to be removed as well if it gets to the point of no return.

So please stay on topic. It's a small thing to ask.

Thank you.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:01 pm

ssar wrote:
Teyaha wrote:shev had a kid..


Oooh, I frogot about that!
Of course.
That's it.
A kid is like a neuclear blast - heavy shockwave for a long time, and fallout for an even much longer time.

Oh, and Ash quoted "didactic" or something? Sounds cool, I won't look it up on dictionary.com, but it sounds appropriate anyways.


Didn't you know? Having a baby causes paralysis in your fingers so you can't post things.

Ash: Less big words :( I take breaks from my research so I don't have to read that crap.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:21 pm

Seriously, I can see a kid taking up all your time so you can't even post on a BBS. You've got more important things to do, and when you don't sleep is probably the priority.

That said, it sounds like once you have a kid it's a pretty good time to go into some kind of semi-retirement and let someone else run things for a bit.

EDIT: I mean, really... just promoting someone else to Forger would be enough. Shev can come back when the kid's older and he has time/energy to do stuff. We need someone in the interim though...
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:42 pm

Maybe Shevarash just wants the game to die? The current gods are probably painting him a pretty picture on what's coming up... but seems like a lot of people don't care about what's coming up. I'm going to laugh my ass off when Silvermoon and its adjacent zones causes more people to quit. Hooray for more rare checking.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:21 pm

When I was around 14 years old or so, I started running one of the old-school dialup (pre-internet) BBS's. I actually enjoyed it for quite some time. At 17, I got my driver's license and rather than sit around at home typing messages about hacking, phreaking, and piracy geekdom, I wanted to go out driving with friends, girls, whatever. I had been running the BBS for years though, and it had been a big part of my life. I ended up just basically putting it on cruise control for a year. When I was forced to put time into maintaining it, it seemed like a burden, whereas in the past it was an enjoyable hobby. Truth be told, the thing was like an albatross. I was so used to having it, that I couldn't get rid of it, but then again, I didn't want it anymore. Eventually, one day, I just pulled the plug. And it felt so damn good not to be burdened anymore.

Thats what I think is going on with Shev.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:16 pm

Sarvis wrote:Seriously, I can see a kid taking up all your time so you can't even post on a BBS. You've got more important things to do, and when you don't sleep is probably the priority.

That said, it sounds like once you have a kid it's a pretty good time to go into some kind of semi-retirement and let someone else run things for a bit.

EDIT: I mean, really... just promoting someone else to Forger would be enough. Shev can come back when the kid's older and he has time/energy to do stuff. We need someone in the interim though...


I know many people with kids, including myself, that have five minutes to make a post. I can see the kid taking up coding time, play-time, sex-time, etc. but those things all require good portions of uninterupted time to persue; however, posting takes, at the max, five minutes. That is no excuse. Having internet cut-off, there's an excuse. Computer blowing up? That's an excuse. Having a child that will sleep at least two hours straight (and I think at this stage in a childs development, most are sleeping through the night). BS.

Again, I understand that a kid can take you out of something that requires time and effort -- even if you want to do it. I understand that Shev may not have the time to code, update, oversee, etc. anymore. Like you said, though, there needs to be an interim forger for situations like this -- otherwise, it is just a selfish act of letting something die because you don't feel like doing it anymore (much like what Corth described). And I'm sure Corth could have given control of his BBS over to somebody who wanted the board to be maintained -- I was someone who did just that for a local BBS around the same time Corth had his up. Like him, however, I just disappeared without a second thought because I had other things to do (mostly drinking and girls).

The fact remains, however, that there is something that is simple, quick, and painless that could be done -- shift authority to an active memeber of the administration.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:23 pm

This is the part where Shevarash tells you all you're retarded and don't see what's going on in the background. Oh wait that's Cyric's line lol. Give up guys.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Lalsed » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:38 pm

How overdue is 2.0 now? How obscenely long did it take to get Tiamat, or Forka put back in the game? Toril can't afford to wait for the slow and steady progress that the Shevarlites are touting. The game has been hemorrhaging players for years now to the point where its difficult to get a group to even see this content that may or may not come in. Something needs to happen pretty quickly, because at this point, every player you lose is felt immediately.


Some players like me I would imagine occasionally browse the forums to see what is going on. I quit so long ago though that I doubt there's much chance of me coming back, but when I first saw Toril 2.0 I was excited. That excitement died down very very quickly after I realized it wasn't going to happen too soon. Every couple weeks I checked back for updates and I thought "is the mud dead? why aren't there posts about this cool new update?"

Anyways, while even though at one point I might have actually come back to play since the changes looked like a complete turn around for a mud that died long ago, that time is since past. Warcraft takes the little time I have to play games, and the grind of toril is not attractive in the least.

so, yah.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:59 pm

Active development =

Code: Select all

4/03/08
- The teacher of Infuse Magical Device has been moved to a non-aggressive
  mob in the same zone.
- Zealot god call has been tweaked. The duration of the effect is now
  longer, to further match the timer on the innate refresh. Simply put,
  the duration for zealot god call is now level / 7 minutes, and the timer
  refresh for the innate is 8 minutes.
- Pets no longer count towards the group cap, but still towards the misfire
  cap (which is 16 for all those out there who did not know).
- The Githyanki special weapon proc (the free weapon for level 50) was
  broken, but it is now fixed.
- Natures Touch should now have some messages for the caster and room.
- A multitude of zone fixes have been submitted, keep the ideas and bugs
  coming!
- To keep the masses placated while we _try_ to find the time to finish
  guildhalls, evils can now home in any hometown similar to goodies, but
  for a slightly higher price.
- The Temple of Tikitzopl door to the master of arms is now bashable from
  both sides.
- Parlay should now be a bit less nerfed, but quite a bit more realistic in
  it's operation. Feedback (rational) is welcomed.

3/31/08
- Some of the bosses in The Jade Empire aren't so epic anymore.

3/30/08
- The 'Circle' skill has gotten a significant facelift; it now works much like
  the 'flank' ability. Try it out!
- Berserkers now tend to inflict more damage the lower their hitpoints become.
- Archery experience should be much less insane crazy.

3/29/08
- The Old Quarter of the Ruin of Tharnadia is now an epic zone.  Speak
  with the expeditionary force leader to find out how you can help him get
  inside.
- The epic stone in Nakral's Crypt has moved.  Some of the items in this
  zone were boosted slightly as well.
- Ships now have restrictions on how many weapons are allowed in each
  position (fore/port/starboard/aft). A few other small ship bugs were fixed.
- Frigates are now a bit smaller.
- Dalvik sells cargo again.
- Lance charge shouldn't damage lances so often anymore.

3/28/08
- Berserk has been adjusted slightly once more- it should show a bit more of a gain for
  Warrior types using it, granting them slightly faster speed in combat, and increasing
  their mental power somewhat.
- A new epic skill has been added, read help epic skills for details.
- The spell penetration epic skill has been tweaked slightly, in a positive fashion.
- Tiamat's treasure vault now contains treasure!
- The Mentenozan Shade in the Arachdrathos Guilds has a new trick
  up his sleeve...
- Parlay has been adjusted slightly, it now lags the user slightly more.
- Increased spell damage on berserk has been toned down a bit, roughly 5 percent.

3/27/08
- Ship hulls can now be downgraded
- Reaver hitpoints were reduced slightly, and their gain from "Eshablas Vitality" was
  increased a fair amount. This should move them in a direction to become more dependent
  on their spells/enchantments to survive.
- "Living" and "Undead" should now appear under the "Protected From" information on
  your score sheet (if you have the apropriate enchantments active).
- The god call timer for specialized clerics has gotten shorter (can use it more often)
- Bounty hunter spec mercenaries' track now caps at 100.
- Berserk has been changed slightly. Now, whenever a player is berserked, they will take
  slightly more damage vs spells, but slightly less damage vs melee based damage. This
  is subject to tweaking in the coming days.
- Assassins have gained a new 56 skill.
- Psionicists have gained the unarmed combat ability, with a fairly low cap.
- Maul should be slightly less prone to failure.
- Various bug fixes, for instance: A bug causing innate
  invisibility not to work in the Underdark map was fixed. 
  Please keep reporting bugs with the bug command --
  we really do read that log!


3/26/08
- The elite mobs in The Jade Empire no longer let
  themselves die so easily
- The mystical warhammer artifact is now usable by Mountain
  Dwarves, complete with its own unique set of procs for that
  race

3/23/08
- Some of the guards in the Orog Encampment can now see invisible
  foes.  Gate guard reinforcements now won't tend to repop all at one
  gate either.

3/22/08
- The Shady Grove gate guards have increased in number somewhat
- The newly introduced lag on failed maul attempts has been toned
  down

3/21/08
- Centaur warriors can now specialize as Swordsmen
- The innate god call timer for clerics is now the same for spec'd
  and non-spec'd clerics
- Shady Grove gate guards have developed new tactics; they will
  no longer repop reinforcements at a single city entrance when
  goods raid

3/17/08
- Maul no longer works as well on sitting/prone victims and may cause
  the berserker to fall flat on his face or to his knees after an
  unsuccessful attempt

3/13/08
- You can now board/disembark frigates while undocked like other ships.

3/5/08
- Gnome scientists recently discovered that years of natural
  selection (accelerated by adventurers-in-training looking for
  target practice) has caused the worms in the Sarmiz'Duul tunnels
  to become much stronger than they were previously.
- Ships can now be renamed at a cost based on the type of ship.  Note
  that offensive ship names are now being replaced.

3/4/08
- Avengers have gained a new skill. Check help files for details.
- Paladins have slightly more hitpoints.
- Githzerai have become slightly wiser.

3/3/08
- Scan now works much more effectively than it did before.
- The inter-dimensional rift that had inadvertently been delivering an
  arcane power beyond all reason to the evil spec teachers inhabiting EC
  has closed, and the teachers have returned to having their normal strength.
- Each portal in The Twin Keeps of Devastated Tharnadia now has an epic stone.
- Tchan, the high priest of Storm Port can no longer remove spill blood tasks.

3/2/08
- As the recurrent power of the Good races grows in their bastion of
  Winterhaven, gnome scientists have discovered long-lost lore for piercing
  the darkness further than ever before, and have taught all of their good
  race allies how to see a little bit further in the pitch-black darkness
  of the Underdark.

- Demoralized by recent raids from Winterhaven, some of the guards in
  Shady Grove have abandoned their posts.

- Bugfix: the temporary loss in speed after gaining ship frags has been fixed.

2/29/08
- Braddistock Mansion had a round of changes done to it -- upgrades to some
  of the equipment, and with some quest rewards changed.  For those who
  haven't explored it before, Braddistock was changed this wipe to be a
  challenging zone intended for players levels 40 and up.  Experienced
  players skilled at avoiding being swarmed by mobs will find it to have good
  xp opportunities as well.

- The artifact unique, "a gold tablet entitled "The Holy Code of Honor"
  had its stats changed considerably.  But the beast that guards it is now
  stronger than ever before -- better bring some tough friends for this one.

2/27/08
- Bugfix:  If you attack or are hit by ranged weapons, you are now
  considered to be in an active pvp situation and can no longer immediately
  rent out
- The "eternity" longbow unique is now wieldable only and unusable by priest
  and caster classes

2/24/08
- The score command now shows the name of the person you are consenting to.
- "who lfg" now shows all players who are seeking groups

2/22/08
- Ethermancers can now train the Devotion epic skill.
- The stun duration on maul should be slightly less for the victim.
- The flame blade and wind blade spells have been slightly improved, and will
  increase the power of the weapon they summon as the caster levels.
- Githzerai can now be clerics, and Orogs can now be mercenaries.
- Half-Elves can no longer be clerics.
- Restoration should now also cure debuff ailments, like slowness and snailspeed.
- Avengers should see a bit larger improvement from the "divine power" spell.

2/21/08
- Githzerai shrug was increased substantially
- Barbarian hitpoints and damage output were increased
- Orogs have become slightly slower
- Kobe Chi, of the Jade Empire, has recently acquired a unique object.

2/20/08
- Air Magus and Wizard specializations are now available to Githzerai

2/19/08
- A few wandering mobs on the surface have had their quests enhanced.
- Epic zones increase in value over time slightly faster now.
- Zone trophy will fade over time slightly faster.

2/18/08
- The surprise skill should no longer be cheesable.

Note: According to the updated rules for this wipe, you are
      NOT allowed to abuse bugs, even if you have reported
      them. We will be lenient if you accidentally triggered a bug,
      but if it is clear that you have abused it on purpose, even
      if you have reported it, you will be liable for disciplinary
      action.

2/14/08
  New server!
- We are now live on a new server in the same data center, but with dual processors
  and a super fast hard drive. Hopefully the mud will be more responsive and won't
  slow down at peak times. Feedback is appreciated!



Haven't seen this in ... a year + at least. It's dead, Jim.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

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Postby Dalar » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:51 pm

Heh I hadn't seen that kind of active development since uh Homeland haha.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby avak » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:24 pm

It is truly baffling that no forger has even bothered to respond...to this or the Forgers MIA thread. Nothing. I'm honestly surprised that they went to the trouble of getting the mud back up after the power supply failure. And what an ultimately huge FU that Shev could post fairly timely responses in the SoI forum, but not a word here in months.

I haven't actively played in a long time and I never was half as active as many here were, but it still makes me exceptionally angry to see this community taken for granted and the game essentially strangled to a slow, painful death because of egos. I can't think of any other plausible reason for such an appalling lack of communication.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:19 pm

I've seen Shar and Shev both log in recently for a bit, so I dunno.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:12 am

avak wrote:It is truly baffling that no forger has even bothered to respond...to this or the Forgers MIA thread. Nothing. I'm honestly surprised that they went to the trouble of getting the mud back up after the power supply failure. And what an ultimately huge FU that Shev could post fairly timely responses in the SoI forum, but not a word here in months.

I haven't actively played in a long time and I never was half as active as many here were, but it still makes me exceptionally angry to see this community taken for granted and the game essentially strangled to a slow, painful death because of egos. I can't think of any other plausible reason for such an appalling lack of communication.


What huge FU? He posted on SOI because, DUH he couldnt post here .. Jesus he DID get the mud back up, he must care .. Honestly did anyone consider the fact they may just be sick to friggin death of all the crap they read and just need a break to put things in perspective? Get shit on enough times and anyone would react the same way

Bottom line it is THEIR property, they can do with it what they want .. There are enough loyal players to make it worth it, obviously .. As in Gurn's post, nothing will bring you all back .. why not just retire from the BBS too and let your glory days be your glory days .. why not move on!

Who are we to dictate who can take a break and who cant .. The mud survived .. The people that post mostly dont play (myself included), those that play mostly avoid this BBS .. Call them losers, call them what you want but the loyal players are the ones who deserve to be listened to, not your "let me bitch about everything cause it isnt 100% the way I want it" selves
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:35 am

Ambar wrote:why not just retire from the BBS too and let your glory days be your glory days .. why not move on!


Probably for the same reasons you haven't, Jen.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:38 am

Well at least Cyric does exist...

You GCC: 'nah the forgers just have a platform of noninvolvement, like the catholics during the holocaust'
Cyric GCC: 'something like that Asculon ;)'
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Postby Pril » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:55 am

Gormal wrote:I've seen Shar and Shev both log in recently for a bit, so I dunno.



Cyric was on today
The best of WTF statments of '06
--------------------------------------------------------
Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:16 am

Hence the post right before yours...
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Postby Pril » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:23 pm

Gormal wrote:Hence the post right before yours...


As well as the post right after yours.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Postby avak » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:41 pm

Ambar wrote:
What huge FU? He posted on SOI because, DUH he couldnt post here .. Jesus he DID get the mud back up, he must care .. Honestly did anyone consider the fact they may just be sick to friggin death of all the crap they read and just need a break to put things in perspective? Get shit on enough times and anyone would react the same way


The fact of the matter is that many people have all but begged for some kind of acknowledgment. An entire thread was devoted to the question.

I think that many of those same people have considered that they could be "sick to friggin death" of the BBS and/or the mud in general and have logically suggested that other active members are allowed to help the game progress.

Honestly, I am so tired of the argument that this mud is the property of certain people which we will ironically label 'gods' and then stand by while they act as such. Did you ever stop to think of what actual percentage of content any one given person has contributed? Oh but they pay hosting. First of all, check the litany of threads where the community tries to dream up ways to help. Secondly, the mud was not put on the market. I could not have purchased the mud.

The forgers are stewards. They are stewards of the work that proceeded their tenure and they are stewards of the community that makes this a reality. They are stewards of the tens of thousands of hours that hundreds of people have put in to the game....whether as casual players, leaders or volunteers. They have a moral obligation to uphold some level of expectations to those people.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:46 pm

avak wrote:The forgers are stewards. They are stewards of the work that proceeded their tenure and they are stewards of the community that makes this a reality. They are stewards of the tens of thousands of hours that hundreds of people have put in to the game....whether as casual players, leaders or volunteers. They have a moral obligation to uphold some level of expectations to those people.


Wow. I think that best expressed the overwhelming (and rather appallingly rude) sense of entitlement people have been venting in this thread. It's the equivalent of somebody on welfare shouting very loudly that because they've been on welfare for years and have learned to enjoy a certain lifestyle because of it, the government owes them continuing welfare so as to not disrupt their fragile sensitivities.

Nobody has any "moral obligation" to continue pandering to anybody in this game. That's what people say when they want to put controls on somebody else so that the other person will continue supporting their own behavior. Whatever obligations these people have in real life trump the imagined "moral obligation" you attempt to impose upon them.

You people can continue to shoot yourselves in your own foot, but you'd think the brain would click to the "On" position at some point and tell you "That hurts." The forgers have no obligation to do anything. You can continue to drive wedges between the players and the staff and give them more reason to not give a damn and to not want to bother talking to anybody here, or you can try to respect what's already been given to you and appreciate it for what it is.

The problem is, however, that the people who have the greatest sense of self-entitlement are the ones that never realize that they do the most damage. The ones who are saying "I'm so brilliant that my ideas are always fantastic and I'm the best gift to whatever I deign to devote my time to, and you're so stupid because you don't listen to me, and anybody who disagrees is stupid, and anybody who contributes something that isn't exactly what I want is stupid, and if the world isn't going the way I want it to, and all you stupid idiots aren't going to do exactly what I want you to do, I'm going to take my toys and go home" are the ones who are the most destructive, because they do a really great job of convincing the people who ARE contributing their time and effort to the rest of us, that life is just that much better without their hassle.

So yeah, there's me telling people that these other people DO contribute freely of their time and effort to us, and there are certain people here who have a really crappy way of appreciating that. Pardon me for taking logic and consideration of others into the equation. I know that being considerate of other people isn't an option for some of you, but locusts don't give a damn, either, and just like locusts there are people in this game who are perfectly happy with leaving nothing behind for anybody else, as long as they can satisfy their own selfish interests.

Fox. Grapes. If your legs are short, you're too dumb to use a ladder, too lazy to figure out a way to climb, and too personality-challenged to learn how to get what you want through asking nicely, that doesn't make the grapes any less sweet for anybody else. The only place the grapes are sour is in your own head.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:03 pm

I don't think that comparing those who have complaints to those who depend on welfare is a fair comparison in the least, Kelly. We come here for entertainment, not because we survive off of Toril's well being. The people who run this game DO have an obligation to its waning population. This game exists because of the few who do still play, and don't lie to yourself... it is only a few who are left.

Shevarash and company split from Miax because of differences in how they thought the MUD should go. We've had years now where that direction has taken us nowhere, and after years of empty promises pertaining to 2.0, there's no reason why the players cannot be angry about the lack of improvements. Its to the point where a forger logging in is a HUGE deal an zones actually stop to discuss it, so don't pretend that there aren't problems in the administration.

Free or not, this isn't our lives, its just something that we care about but still is only here for our enjoyment. Trying to justify the horrible administration by playing the "they aren't paid and its free" card doesn't fly, and never should have. I appreciate everything that the staff has done in the past, but if this place is to have a future things need to change .
Last edited by Gormal on Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby avak » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:46 pm

I anticipated such a reply. I didn't think it needed to be said for the millionth time how much I personally (and seemingly most here) appreciate the work that has been done. Clearly, the current forgers have made this experience (or the continuance of) possible. We all owe them a substantial debt of gratitude for that. Otoh, a mud without players is an empty chat room.

Here's an analogy that perhaps someone like Ashiwi can understand. I own land. I am the legal owner of the land and that implies many rights due to such ownership. I pay plenty in taxes and interest every gd day. Despite my title of 'landowner,' I consider myself a steward of the land. The trees that are 70 years old now were planted by Ellie Paso after the Dust Bowl. I could cut the trees down if I wanted to. I happen to think that I am a steward of those trees. They are hardly "mine." They aren't Ellie's either, just because she planted them.

So who's are they? That's a damn good question and one that I guess you have to answer yourself.

Kind of ironic that this glorious mud was created by people that we have long since forgotten. Just as interesting that this forum which we use to rant and rave is an open source project for which no one has gotten paid.

If you want to trash me for having a very specific (and imo principled) opinion on a community project such as this mud, so be it. I happen to think you are as off base as the forgers.
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Postby avak » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:50 pm

Ashiwi wrote:The problem is, however, that the people who have the greatest sense of self-entitlement are the ones that never realize that they do the most damage. The ones who are saying "I'm so brilliant that my ideas are always fantastic and I'm the best gift to whatever I deign to devote my time to, and you're so stupid because you don't listen to me, and anybody who disagrees is stupid, and anybody who contributes something that isn't exactly what I want is stupid, and if the world isn't going the way I want it to, and all you stupid idiots aren't going to do exactly what I want you to do, I'm going to take my toys and go home" are the ones who are the most destructive, because they do a really great job of convincing the people who ARE contributing their time and effort to the rest of us, that life is just that much better without their hassle.


I assume you are not talking about the forgers here.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:30 pm

Its really too bad that the staffers who've contacted me via AIM can't post in here because they're afraid to lose their positions. Its not a vocal minority.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:56 pm

Avak, for your example I would like to point out that those trees are a moral obligation you imposed upon yourself. If your neighbor decided to cut down their trees, then you'd be SOL, for all your talk of moral obligations. How you see the world and allot your moral obligations should not be a factor in how somebody else does, except when they take consideration for your feelings in their decision making process. And I certainly hope if they do that for you, that you do the same for them.

As for the welfare example, I was referring to the over-inflated sense of entitlement that seems go go hand-in-hand with both populations... welfare recipients, and the abusively verbal sector of this game. There's a big difference between constructive criticism and making one's choices off the results, and banging your head against a brick wall time and time again, calling the wall "stupid" because it doesn't move for you, telling everybody else that you're so so smart and talented that all walls should listen to you and move aside on their own, and that anybody who thinks the wall will continue to stand there because it's in the wall's nature is a loser.

Notice I never once supported the staff's current level of whatever it is that's being bitched about THIS time. There are certain people in this game who repeatedly out themselves as cretins who love nothing more than undermining others to try to give themselves some kind of illusion of power, and it totally blows me away how many sheep there are who can be manipulated into jumping on their bandwagon. They're the people who can be given the world on a plate and complain because they don't like the garnish. They can't possibly allow themselves to let anybody else have fun when they're so miserable about their own miserable existence that they think everybody else should be miserable too.

What it all boils down to is that it doesn't matter what the staff does here. Those type of people will always be around, and when they get bored with whatever newness was arranged for their pleasure, or don't feel that it's working out for them exactly as they think it should, they'll do what it takes to tear it down, demean it and generally behave like jerks to try to desperately claw in their dwindling supply of accomplishment so they can somehow feel superior to others.

The general consensus throughout this thread is that very few people give a damn what's happening in anybody else's lives. None of it matters as long as they take time out to placate you people. "Gimme, gimme, gimme." Personally, I don't feel that what's happening in their lives is any of my business ... or anybody else's either. They'll get to it when they get to it, and if that's not a good enough answer for you, then the other answer should be obvious.

I haven't seen a lot of people step forward offering to single-handedly shoulder the lion's share of the financial responsibility for the game. It's easy to tell other people what to do when you're not the one that has to do it.

Now, that's enough of my blather. I'm sure nobody really wants to read it. I'm stepping out of this. You can feel free to say all the obnoxious stuff about me that you want, because we already know that's how you guys roll. This isn't directed to one particular individual, never had a problem with you, personally, Avak, it was just that by the time you posted this thread was starting to sound like a group of kindergartners gone feral.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:07 pm

Aside from Cyric, I've supported the current administration quite well until recently. I don't see how I'm some retard bashing my skull into a wall because I choose to point out the simple fact that things are not going well here. Go back and look at the timelines for 2.0, and look at how Shevarash has let the community down time and time again, until recently where he's completely given up. I don't care about his reasons for giving up, and I don't blame him whatever they may be.

What I care about is how he has chosen to let things stagnate further despite his obvious lack of interest when a simple act of promotion could help put the MUD back on track. As much as you few people want to defend this administration, there's absolutely no evidence to support the argument that they've done a good job since the split. The initial burst of activity quickly fell apart, and the status quo returned only to degenerate into an even more stagnant pool of forgers.

I love you Shev and everything you've done. But if you're going to sit on your thumbs, give it over to someone who might save what even you have cared about for so long and come back when you're ready.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Cool, I didn't know Shevarash was paying for the MUD's computer and host. In fact, I have no idea who is, but you're assuming he does.

There's no point in posting constructive criticism. We post, we get no response. We flame, we get no response.

I'm not sure if you've been up to date with the current MMO models, but all of them have a Community Manager. Shevarash was ours, but he is MIA. We are asking for Eilistraee to become a Forger so he will have that kind of power.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:16 pm

Gormal wrote:Aside from Cyric, I've supported the current administration quite well until recently. I don't see how I'm some retard bashing my skull into a wall because I choose to point out the simple fact that things are not going well here. Go back and look at the timelines for 2.0, and look at how Shevarash has let the community down time and time again, until recently where he's completely given up. I don't care about his reasons for giving up, and I don't blame him whatever they may be.

What I care about is how he has chosen to let things stagnate further despite his obvious lack of interest when a simple act of promotion could help put the MUD back on track. As much as you few people want to defend this administration, there's absolutely no evidence to support the argument that they've done a good job since the split. The initial burst of activity quickly fell apart, and the status quo returned only to degenerate into an even more stagnant pool of forgers.

I love you Shev and everything you've done. But if you're going to sit on your thumbs, give it over to someone who might save what even you have cared about for so long and come back when you're ready.


Insert post where Ashiwi calls you dumb and her imaginary friends agree.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Kifle » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:41 pm

<Insert>

Seriously thought, there's a large difference between the self-entitlement that welfare recipients feel and that of the old-school players feel. I think the latter is more justified in their feelings for a few reasons.

Some of them have put a lot of work into this place (code, zones, rp events). They never demanded monitary compensation. Time = Money in this world, however -- at least in an implicit manner. For every zone they made, piece of code they slaved over, hours of admin babysitting, etc., these same people could have been dedicating themselves to something else such as another degree (better gpa), certificates, etc. Or quite possibly a second job. Who knows, but whatever the situation, these people chose to put their time into something they thought was useful. To let their work die is a slap in the face -- especially if they are still wanting to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.

You have to take into account that ownership is the forgers' in name only. This MUD, historically, has a loose sense of ownership in that it is something that trades hands under certain circumstances. Those circumstances in the past have been very similar to the circumstances that this MUD is in at this point in time -- lack of involvement and lack of desire of involvement. It is not anyone who posts here's fault that these are the current circumstances for this place, so I don't think anyone is out of line for drawing these similarities or asking for action.

On that note, it would be highly hypocritical for anybody to have not stayed at Miax's mud to be arguing with those complaining about the current situation. We all left miax's mud for a reason -- those are, for the most part, the same reasons people are feeling "self-entitled" now.

More importantly, how can you even begin to side with the current forgers given the implications of their silence? This place is obviously something that a lot of people want to survive. This place is beyond and larger than any one person (or three people). It is the forgers that are acting self-entitled when they believe that since they were the ones that the MUD was given to, as avak state, to become stewards -- to keep the dream going under the implication that they would, in fact, keep it going until it can not go anymore (lack of funds [players have and are willing to provide], lack of time [players have and are willing to provide], and lack of desire [players have and are willing to provide]) -- that they can just do with it as they please. Granted, they do have that power because of a contract, but, again as many people have stated, there is a moral obligation to follow the explicit and implicit terms of the contract that was, in effect, signed by the current forgers to Miax and the rest of the players to keep this place going. The forgers either no longer have the ability, time, or desire to do so; therefore, it is not without justification that the players and BBS members ask for action. And, given the inaction and selfish silence provided by the forgers, it is insulting that one does not just expect, but allow certain emotions to be aired when discussing something that has a great possibility of becoming the end or death of what some of us have been a part of for half of our lives. This game stopped being a game a long time ago. This place has become much more than a game to a lot of people, and to speak of it as just a game, is grossly misunderstanding what it is you and I -- and the rest of the posters/players -- participate in here or what the forgers allow to die or continue as the whim hits them.

I've never been one to post insults, hidden or not, to the forgers. I've never spoke out, for the most part, about anything concerning the game for a very very long time. The fact that I, and many others who have long since quit playing on a regular basis, are so up-in-arms about this situation should be a slight window into what this place means and what everybody here has invested in this place -- the forgers being the sole investors and therefore owners of this place, with this in mind, is entirely laughable at this point in the evolution of torilmud. As I said in my previous posts, the arguments of ownership and money are poor arguments at best. So, if people are being pissy, self-entitled, rude, harsh, emotional, etc., there is a damn good justification for it at this point.
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Postby Botef » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:33 pm

Image


I'm not going type much more than this, I did that already and the thread got deleted before people had a chance to read it, and as Brian has already said it is all wasted breath.

Instead I'll reiterate a question I had posted before. Project Band-Aid was the first time in probably the last 6 years that I've seen gods come to the table and ask questions - and really listen, respond and interact and then make them so. There was interaction with the player base on a public level, and some really worthwhile discussion about how to approach change. So again I ask, why can't this kind of open-air operation be the norm? We've seen the secretive development angle for over a decade now and it hasn't gotten us far in recent years. In fact I can use all my fingers to count people pushed away from contributing to this place because of these curtains that shroud how things work. On the outside things are portrayed as a very organized and democratic system where anyone who wants to help can - and if you don't, then you have nothing to bitch about. But that is not the case, people are turned away and told they're help is not wanted - for whatever the reason. And slowly this has turned into a 'vocal minority', to use a loaded term, that seeks more dramatic ways of getting their point across. Not everyone listens, but at this stage you don't stand to lose much by being vocal whereas being part of the silent 'majority' leaves you in the same spot you've been for the past 10 years.

But that was just a big rant from my perspective. I believe the real point trying to be made in this thread, and other threads over the years, is that there are people who DO want to help this mud improve and that if the current administration doesn't want to lead the way to progress, then maybe it is time to pass the reigns to someone who does.

I'll close with one more thought: I've heard it said time and time again to the players of this mud that if this game is getting to you and making you bitter or discontent then maybe it is time to step back for a bit - take a break and refresh your perspective. This is excellent advice - for everyone, not just players. Mahalo.
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// Post Count +1
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:58 pm

Kifle wrote:<Insert>

Seriously thought, there's a large difference between the self-entitlement that welfare recipients feel


Oh good, this might get to devolve into a political argument even without my help!
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Postby Kifle » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:21 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:<Insert>

Seriously thought, there's a large difference between the self-entitlement that welfare recipients feel


Oh good, this might get to devolve into a political argument even without my help!


It was Ashiwi's analogy/similie, not mine... Thanks for noticing though.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:49 pm

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:<Insert>

Seriously thought, there's a large difference between the self-entitlement that welfare recipients feel


Oh good, this might get to devolve into a political argument even without my help!


It was Ashiwi's analogy/similie, not mine... Thanks for noticing though.


Naw I saw it coming too. Let me start bitching about areas so we have the whole BBS summed up in one thread.
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Postby Corth » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:54 pm

The game has changed hands several times... even before it was originally known as sojourn mud. At one point it even split into two muds. Sure, legal ownership lies in Shevarash. However, over the years, each time an owner has become unable to properly handle the game, its been turned over to someone else. In that sense, Avak's 'stewardship' post makes a whole lot of sense from a moral perspective.

I also have to say that its pretty pathetic at this point to see Ashiwi arguing, essentially, that Shev owns the mud, so we shouldn't say anything if he wants to run it into the ground. Feh. I'll say whatever the hell I want, and if he runs it into the ground, at least I gave it a shot. I've been doing it for years and I'm not about to stop now. I have to think there is some sort of interest there.. perhaps she is on the staff or something, I don't know. Perhaps she is just too friendly with the clique of people in this game who have been kissing Shev, Shar, and Cyric's asses for a very long time and I guess are just used to it at this point. I get the feeling that a lot of the SOI people are guilty in that respect.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:26 am

Corth wrote:Perhaps she is just too friendly with the clique of people in this game who have been kissing Shev, Shar, and Cyric's asses for a very long time and I guess are just used to it at this point. I get the feeling that a lot of the SOI people are guilty in that respect.


The man doesn't even play the game and he knows what's going on. The kind of stupid ass retarded drama going on behind the sidelines of this game makes me sick. I fucking laugh out loud when some of you tell me to get a life when I have to hear about the kind of bullshit drama I hear about.

Here's to AoC being released in May and hopefully myself, Brandon, or Gormal's former guildmates telling him to come play with us. Touk is coming too. He just doesn't know it yet.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:29 pm

There are two sides to this:

1. The Forgers have a responsibility to the community to administrate the game in such a way as to ensure its success. If they can't do that, they should step down.

2. The Forgers provide a game to the players, and if the players don't like it, they have no room to bitch. Go find some other game to play.

There's no point in arguing. Pick your side, vote #1 or #2, and just move on. Everyone has their own opinion already, and you aren't going to convince anyone of anything.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:45 pm

Eep..Crazy when that's noon


Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[ FORGER ADMIN ] Shar -The Dark Goddess of the Night, the Lady of Loss, the Nightsinger

There are 1 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[49 Inv] Raxes (Human)
[19 War] Grunak (Dwarf)
[50 Ill] Benipiple -Magician- Triterium (Gnome)
[50 Ele] Llorin Willowbreeze (Grey Elf) (RP)
[50 Nec] Mattah (Human) (RP)
[20 War] Duner (Dwarf)
[48 Bar] Nore (Human) (RP)
[50 Cle] Raiwen -Hand of Life- Triterium (Human) (AFK)
[50 Lic] Nymantar Atar'Vuzdar (Drow Elf) (RP)
[46 Ill] Corth Khonier -Elusive One- Elders of Netheril (Human) (RP)
[50 Bar] Kegor -Loremaster- Triterium (Human)

There are 12 mortal(s) on.

[RETURN for more, q to quit]
Total players online: 22.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:49 pm

Thilindel wrote:Eep..Crazy when that's noon


Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[ FORGER ADMIN ] Shar -The Dark Goddess of the Night, the Lady of Loss, the Nightsinger

There are 1 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[49 Inv] Raxes (Human)
[19 War] Grunak (Dwarf)
[50 Ill] Benipiple -Magician- Triterium (Gnome)
[50 Ele] Llorin Willowbreeze (Grey Elf) (RP)
[50 Nec] Mattah (Human) (RP)
[20 War] Duner (Dwarf)
[48 Bar] Nore (Human) (RP)
[50 Cle] Raiwen -Hand of Life- Triterium (Human) (AFK)
[50 Lic] Nymantar Atar'Vuzdar (Drow Elf) (RP)
[46 Ill] Corth Khonier -Elusive One- Elders of Netheril (Human) (RP)
[50 Bar] Kegor -Loremaster- Triterium (Human)

There are 12 mortal(s) on.

[RETURN for more, q to quit]
Total players online: 22.


Nice fake screenshot! There's no way Shar could have logged on -- she has a baby!
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Postby Osheara » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:18 pm

If I were any of the staff I wouldn't respond to any of this either. If they say anything they are picked apart and damned. If they don't say anything, they get damned.

This is a game. Through the game a community has been created. That is why this place has lasted so long. It sure as hell hasn't lasted because it is the 'best' game out there. It never has. It has stayed because of the people who play the game.

To say that the game is floundering and essentially dying because the 'staff don't fix it' is rediculous. How about half of you 'old school' players who take the time to bitch and complain on the boards start listing off what you have done the past several years to help encourage the community! I mean...really.

You say 'oh, we told the staff to do this', but what have YOU done? I see 2-3 leaders pushing to do consistant zones, a handful of people (as much as I disagree with the process) trying to do RP. one or two people trying to help the few lowbies that play.

As much as we sit there and go 'I don't have time', it's not a matter of not having time, it's a matter of caring enough to make time. A few people on these boards obviously don't care all that much or they might make the effort in game instead of sitting on their high horses outside of the game and complaining about the few who are still at least trying.

Gormal...it's nice that you are back and all. Again. It's great that you are going to offer up your time to try and do things in the game. Again. But do you really think that actively attacking Shev's position in the staff and his work is going to do anything to help the community?

I've always said that the boards are a reflection of the people who play, even if it is not the voice of many, and posts like this will ONLY serve to turn more people away. Is that what you people truely want? because that is what you are driving at with every post, every insult, every bickering remark that you make to drive the staff and players apart from each other.

If you feel there are problems, organize something to adress them if you think that just 'posting' is going unheard. If you think everyone feels the same way, ask them. If you want to be 'involved' then for the love of god, get involved and stop sitting on the sidelines where it's safe.

And for the love of the game, for those coming back you can't just assume that you will get the results you want right away. The game does not revolve around your time limits.

But really, I guess I'm just repeating the unsung choir. Again. I'm sure you all will find some way to insult me and tell me I'm wrong, (because no one can stand up to all of your 'greatnesses'). Just keep up with the snide remarks and bickering. Eventually you will get them to break just like you want.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:17 pm

<b>Osheara</b>: Painting everyone with such broad strokes if fraught with peril, but rather than point out the mistakes in your post I'll just ask one question:

Do you think it would be good or bad if we had more active forgers?
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:18 pm

Osheara wrote:This is a game. Through the game a community has been created. That is why this place has lasted so long. It sure as hell hasn't lasted because it is the 'best' game out there. It never has. It has stayed because of the people who play the game.

To say that the game is floundering and essentially dying because the 'staff don't fix it' is rediculous. How about half of you 'old school' players who take the time to bitch and complain on the boards start listing off what you have done the past several years to help encourage the community! I mean...really.

You say 'oh, we told the staff to do this', but what have YOU done? I see 2-3 leaders pushing to do consistant zones, a handful of people (as much as I disagree with the process) trying to do RP. one or two people trying to help the few lowbies that play.


Another common argument. This is where we all say we can't because friends we know were basically told they can't help or something or other. That and everyone uses the "oh i can't do anything about it" excuse as well. Unfortunately, the BIG difference between WANTING to help and HELPING is getting past Shevarash. Also, we've posted constructively, posted with flames, no response either way. Shevarash controls this MUD with an incredibly tight grip if you even know what has happened in the background. This is what we chose when we had Miax and Shevarash split the MUD. Either road was destined to fail and it's because of background drama. I respect Shevarash WAY more as a immortal/human being, but unfortunately his personal life has and will always get in the way of the MUD.

There's 3 camps. The SOI/imm carebears, the hardcores, and the people who don't give a shit. Gormal, move on to the don't give a shit crew and retire. Gormal, seriously, stop posting and just quit early. Finish up whatever you need to do before AoC comes out because you know casual PvP is going to be the shit. When AoC flops, we'll have Warhammer by then.

This is my contribution to the community. Getting the people who are bitching to quit with me and play other games. IM me at Dalar667 and I'll tell you what's going on with others who have left this game for better horizons. Also, update me on what you're doing as well. I like new ideas. I've recently tried PK muds again (Emlen style) and I've found I'm more into the whole graphical PK more (dota).
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Vigis » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:17 am

Forget it.
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'

Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:45 pm

Tasan wrote:Active development =

*snip*


Haven't seen this in ... a year + at least. It's dead, Jim.


Wow that looks awesome. I promised Kwirl I'd play after wipe, but I was busy IRL.
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:19 pm

Lame. Report to my office, you're fired.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



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