bal lightning

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
irta
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bal lightning

Postby irta » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:18 pm

I'm not yet sure one way or another. But I am concerned that giving voker's another 10th circle spell (and hence allowing them to avoid feedback) is going to further unbalance the mage classes (let's bring 5 voker and kick some tail!!!. I'm hoping I'm wrong, of course, but figured I'd start the discussion (sure to get more lively once people actually finish the new spellquest). And I certainly don't want to offend any vokers (looking for three of them myself to do Scoraxxium)!

The Irta
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:26 pm

Invokers are damage only, let them do their job. Kudos for the spell! Ele's can keep themselves alive pretty well in zoning or soloing, invoker is SOL and doesn't have pets to auto-rescue if need be. I definitely don't see this as an issue. There was a pretty long thread about a month ago by Oteb? for invokers getting more variety. I'm really glad they listened :) Should we take away the ability that lava burst DOESN'T give feedback??
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Postby Mielikki » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:40 pm

Who said ball lighting doesn't give feedback, and doesn't conflict with inferno?

Ya might want to play with the new toys then post thought.
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Postby irta » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:46 pm

Thilindel wrote:Invokers are damage only, let them do their job. Kudos for the spell! Ele's can keep themselves alive pretty well in zoning or soloing, invoker is SOL and doesn't have pets to auto-rescue if need be. I definitely don't see this as an issue. There was a pretty long thread about a month ago by Oteb? for invokers getting more variety. I'm really glad they listened :) Should we take away the ability that lava burst DOESN'T give feedback??


I'm pro-damage for vokers. But I'm also pro-feedback (and yes, I wouldn't mind if lava burst had feedback too). The issue at hand is not the strength of an individual voker, but rather the stackability of them. Groups already have multiple vokers all the time, this is rarely the case with the other mage classes. I don't think this is something that needs encouraging (i.e. adding another 10th level area spell for vokers that doesn't feedback with inferno).

the Irta

P.S. I posted this before Mielikki posted her message but obviously finished afterwards. If ball lightning gives feedback and conflicts with inferno, I'm all for it. ;)
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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:54 pm

On a different mud ... o two or three years ago ... Ball Lightning was the equivalent of a Bigby's if no saves were met ... whats the max damage here??
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:37 pm

I'm all for feedbacks cuz yeah, invokers are great but they're hard to manage when you're doing a long zone and keeping track of who's casting what..bleh. Now all we can beg for is Poison/cloudkill!
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Postby Salen » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:46 pm

Given a choice I would take 5 big invokers anywhere.
Force Missiles > all
5 invokers single target = dead
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Postby Dalar » Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:23 am

Mielikki wrote:Who said ball lighting doesn't give feedback, and doesn't conflict with inferno?

Ya might want to play with the new toys then post thought.


PWNED
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:06 pm

Lich touch = Force Missiles. Don't repress the lichs:P
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Postby Maedor » Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:50 am

Mitharx wrote:Lich touch = Force Missiles. Don't repress the lichs:P


Force Missiles > Lich Touch

Enjoy being repressed.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Oct 12, 2003 8:44 am

bahahaha u got owned by maedor. now that's owned
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Mitharx » Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:46 am

Edited myself for stupid flamebait stuff.

Lich Touch = Force Missles

You don't play your lich and don't appreciate him anyway.

Edited myself for stupid flamebait stuff.

I have done tests recently with lich touch/force missile. It's slightly weaker depending on how many missiles hit, etc. It can slow which tends to be a major advantage (not that many other spells don't have the same effect). In any case, I stand by the comment above.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:55 pm

lich touch is all or no damage on MR with a chance to slow. force missiles do more damage and have a chance to do some on MR mobs.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Mitharx » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:24 pm

Oh yeah, I know. Been to spob many times. The thing I tend to notice tho is that I do as much damage to mobs in spob as the vokers with their target spells because for whatever reason the spell seems to hit often. I've noticed the same with demons and dragons. I'm not suggesting that it gets some bonus. Dunno, maybe I'm just lucky. In any case, I believe lich touch can hold it's own even with the multiple effects of force missiles.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:10 pm

Dalar wrote:lich touch is all or no damage on MR with a chance to slow. force missiles do more damage and have a chance to do some on MR mobs.


8)

Invoker bonus to penetrate MR aside, let's say a mob has 66% magic resistance, meaning 2 in 3 spells don't get through. If an invoker casts force missiles 3 times, then each time 1 of the 3 force missiles goes through. Then the lich casts lich touch 3 times, and 1 of the 3 castings goes through. That means the invokers has gotten off 1 whole force missiles and the lich has gotten off 1 whole lich touch. Due to the base percentage rate of MR, they will end up having the exact same number of their spells absorbed respectively, so what's the difference? The only time I can see the splitting nature of force missiles to be more useful is if the mob has mirror image up. Then you can knock out more mirror images than with a single blast nuke.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:02 am

Yayaril wrote:
Dalar wrote:lich touch is all or no damage on MR with a chance to slow. force missiles do more damage and have a chance to do some on MR mobs.


8)

Invoker bonus to penetrate MR aside, let's say a mob has 66% magic resistance, meaning 2 in 3 spells don't get through. If an invoker casts force missiles 3 times, then each time 1 of the 3 force missiles goes through. Then the lich casts lich touch 3 times, and 1 of the 3 castings goes through. That means the invokers has gotten off 1 whole force missiles and the lich has gotten off 1 whole lich touch. Due to the base percentage rate of MR, they will end up having the exact same number of their spells absorbed respectively, so what's the difference? The only time I can see the splitting nature of force missiles to be more useful is if the mob has mirror image up. Then you can knock out more mirror images than with a single blast nuke.


Numbers are slightly off because I used .33 and .66

Lich touch vs mob 66% MR
0 hits 3 misses = 29.6%
1 hit 2 misses = 44.4%
2 hit 1 miss = 22.2%
3 hits 0 misses = 3.7%

Force missile vs mob 66% MR
0 hit 9 misses = 2.6%
1 hits 8 misses = 11.7%
2 hits 7 misses = 23.4%
3 hits 6 misses = 27.3%
4 hits 5 misses = 20.5%
5 hits 4 misses = 10.2%
6 hits 3 misses = 3.4%
7 hits 2 misses = .7%
8 hits 1 miss = .09%
9 hits 0 misses = .005%
The sum of 0-2 hits is around 37.7%. Subracting 100% by this number should give u the probability of hitting the mob with 3+ force missiles, or 62.3%.

For Yayaril's comparison (assuming 3 force missiles does 1 lich touch in damage)to do the damage of one lich touch or higher vs a 66% MR mob:

3 Lich touches ~= 70.3%
3 Force missiles ~= 62.3%

to do the damage of two lich touches or higher vs a 66% MR mob:
3 lich touches ~= 25.9%
3 Force missiles ~= 4.2%

to do the damage of 3 lich touches

3 Lich touches ~= 3.7%
3 Force missiles ~= .005%


In conclusion, the only thing good about force missiles is that there is a possibility of dealing some damage in the 0-2 hit range when compared to 0 lich touches.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Gyrx » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:59 pm

ack it just felt like i was in bio again!
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Postby Maedor » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:33 pm

Dalar wrote:bahahaha u got owned by maedor. now that's owned


I think I just got owned for owning Mitharx..sigh...

And...my lich is my favorite or 2nd favorite char Mitharx:P I'd rather play him than my voker any day in any zone. I was just stating a fact that FM does (slightly) more damage than lich touch:P That being said...in my opinion, a lich with pets > invoker
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:27 pm

Your owning was weak at best, but I agree.
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Postby Salen » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:44 pm

'IF' invokers have a greater chance of going through MR, then the numbers are wrong.
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Postby oteb » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:45 pm

Invokers having a higher chance of going thru mr is urban legend,unfortunetly.
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Postby omrec » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:49 pm

Dalar wrote:
Numbers are slightly off because I used .33 and .66

<snip>

In conclusion, the only thing good about force missiles is that there is a possibility of dealing some damage in the 0-2 hit range when compared to 0 lich touches.


You made this way more complicated than it needs to be.

In the long run, the damage will be the same. In the short run, force missile will tend towards the average damage faster than lich touch will. But the average damage is exactly the same, if 3 FM = 1 LT. Use intution, don't use a calculator..:P

Of course, if you lack intuition, and really want to convince yourself that the damage is the same, plot the curves of the probability distribution of the the damage over, save 100 castings. They'll look almost exactly the same (the FM curve will be slightly smoother). If you look at the curve of average damage per cast, and over different numbers of castings, you can get a fun animation where the curve slowly smooths itself out. The force missile curve, again, will smooth faster than the lich touch one. But in the end, they are the same curves, and if you take the area under the curve (the integral), you'll get the same number (no matter how many castings you look at, actually).

Anyway, point is, it's the same probablity, and so it really doesn't matter if your spell is split into three or not, if the overall damage is the same. But you do get the benefit of mirror image smiting, and tending towards average damage faster. That said, how sure are we that the average damage for force missile and the average damage for lich touch are the same?

-Om
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:41 pm

i'm talking about 3 castings, not 100+ castings. from just prob stats, in the short run, the numbers above are right. when you go toward 100 castings (if you can cast 100 lich touches on a mob you got issues), i think it looks more like a normal distribution. it does matter if you get 3 castings or 1.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby omrec » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:00 pm

Dalar wrote:it does matter if you get 3 castings or 1.


No, it doesn't. The average damage is exactly the same. Your numbers were correct, but misleading. To do the damage of X or higher isn't a valid way to look at probability. You are intentionally ignoring the bottom part of the curve, which is stupid.

Once again, the average damage is exactly the same. Splitting it across 3 casts instead of 1 makes no difference whatsoever, from a strict damage standpoint.

Look at a single cast:

Lich touch:
0 hits, 1 miss: 66%
1 hit, 0 misses: 33%

FM (using your numbers):
0 hits 3 misses = 29.6%
1 hit 2 misses = 44.4%
2 hit 1 miss = 22.2%
3 hits 0 misses = 3.7%

Comparing 33% chance of full damage vs. 3.7% chance of full damage, using your logic, would make lich touch a huge winner. but your logic is wrong. The curve is just more blocky, but still the same average damage. Look at the odds of at least getting some damage in. LT has only 33% chance of that, FM has 70% chance. So wait, now suddenly FM is a huge winner? It sure is easy to misread the numbers, isn't it..;)

You concluded that somehow it was better to cast less spells than more, even if the average damage was the same. That conclusion is invalid. Its just math, it isn't hard..:P

-Om
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:09 pm

You know you really don't need a curve to figure this out. For a binomial distribution the average is np. I'm just giving probabilities about how much damage you will probably deal in small situations. I'm pretty sure my logic for getting full damage in 3 castings is right.

You're trying to prove that i'm wrong by comparing different situations. If you want to look on the whole average damage, just use np and you'll find the average damage is the same. I still don't think force missile/lich touch damage percentages are the same at small numbers. When it goes to bigger numbers they should appear to look the same (normal). You're still more likely to get full damage with one spell than the other. You're still more likely to get some damage with one spell than the other.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:59 pm

Y'all have too much freaking free time on your hands. Let it go guys.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:19 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:Y'all have too much freaking free time on your hands. Let it go guys.

naw, engineers have to take probability in statistics. i find it kinda fun using stuff from EE that I will probably never use again :P
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:21 pm

That is so cute, I always find it funny watching engineers trying to do math. I hope that didn't hurt too much.
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Postby rylan » Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:12 pm

*swat lili*

Ya know this is kind of funny though, I think this thread is the first time I've seen statisticss stuff related to the classes I took as an EE.

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