Infravision and invisible players

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othelil
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Infravision and invisible players

Postby othelil » Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:44 pm

I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to detect invisible mobiles and players with infravision (as in see their "red shape") whom you would normally be able to detect in the dark. As far as I know, the spell invisibility does not stop mobs or players from emanating heat, so even if I can't see who is radiating heat I should still be able to tell that someone is.

Makes sense to me anyway :)
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Postby Salen » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:22 am

The magic blocks light waves, so !infra ultra... that's what sense life is for.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:31 pm

Salen wrote:The magic blocks light waves, so !infra ultra... that's what sense life is for.


Oh, goodie, better make it so that light sources don't work when you're invisible then. What you're telling me is that invisibility prevents any form of light from leaving the caster - that would include light sources. People radiate heat, and in so doing give off infrared light. If you can't see the infrared light they're giving off, ala infravision, then you can't see their light source and the room is dark.

Also, people warm the air around them and anything else they come into contact with. Are you telling me then that I can't see the air around them? So if they touch a tree does the tree become invisible? If not I'd see their handprint on the tree. There would be a perceptible cloud of warm air around even an invisible object emitting heat because it warms the air around it creating temperature differentials.

Basically what it boils down to is this. In order for a creature to be invisible to infravision then something must be preventing the heat from escaping the individual or rapidly cooling the body heat to leave your body indistinguishable from the surrounding air. If something prevents the heat from escaping the person will suffer from heat exhaustion and die and if its the second option this is not an illusion, its an actual alteration of the person.
Last edited by othelil on Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:37 pm

Sigh. If we used rules of logic about the magic used in game, then we'd have to toss the entire game out the window and do without. It's a fantasy, hon, it's not real, and because it's not real it doesn't necessarily have to make sense. If it made sense, there's good odds we would have made it work in real life by now. Has anybody else noticed that having skin like stone would cause large-scale necrosis and subsequent sloughing of the flesh?

With that in mind, do feel free to continue your arguments as to why it should work however you think it should work.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:45 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Sigh. If we used rules of logic about the magic used in game, then we'd have to toss the entire game out the window and do without. It's a fantasy, hon, it's not real, and because it's not real it doesn't necessarily have to make sense. If it made sense, there's good odds we would have made it work in real life by now. Has anybody else noticed that having skin like stone would cause large-scale necrosis and subsequent sloughing of the flesh?

With that in mind, do feel free to continue your arguments as to why it should work however you think it should work.


There doesn't have to be much wrong with logic. The thing is, stone skin is not a real phenomenon that you can address easily about the mechanics. We know what infrared light is and how it works. If we're going to call it infravision, then it should work like infravision. Otherwise give it a different random name and say it does whatever you want. I'm actually all for giving it a different name and saying it does something different. It's easy to see how looking at the definition of infravision could break any number of spells:

Mirror Image: This is an illusion, anyone with infravision would see the real image radiating heat and not any of the others.

Displacement: Another illusion. Yes you're displacing the victim, but are you displacing his heat patterns? If so, then it's not an illusion, you're actually moving the person. So a creature with infravision knows where the person is standing by their heat patterns.

Blur: Anyone with infravision is used to looking at very blurry outlines around all creatures. Nobody would really want to wander around looking at the infrared spectrum all the time, but that's besides the point. The point is they're so used to this it shouldn't really matter.

Fireshield: Anything with fireshield, warm blooded or not, should be detectable via infravision.

Anything that moves and thus generates friction should at least have its movements detectable via infravision.

You could really go anywhere with it.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 20, 2003 6:57 pm

BTW, to respond to myself, this is not to say that the logically interpreted infravision would only have advantages. What would happen if someone really filled a room with fire breath, inferno, lava burst, etc. and you could see infrared light? Well, you would be blind until the heat began to dissipate. And if someone filled the room with ice breath, a blizzard, etc? Well, temporarily infravision would be meaningless. These would amount to one/two combat round losses in vision/infravision respectively.

Just a thought I was having.
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:28 pm

Invisibility is an enchantment to prevent the viewing of the being under such enchantment. It is an illusion that acts upon the observers perceptions and tells them that there truly is nothing there for them to see. It's not so much a matter of light waves as it is magic distorting what your eyes can see.

Sense life works on the life energies within the room, which is why having sense life allows you to know that there is something alive in the room. What you detect with sense life isn't so much an aspect of visibility as it is the life energy present within the room.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:46 pm

Eilistraee wrote:Invisibility is an enchantment to prevent the viewing of the being under such enchantment. It is an illusion that acts upon the observers perceptions and tells them that there truly is nothing there for them to see. It's not so much a matter of light waves as it is magic distorting what your eyes can see.

Sense life works on the life energies within the room, which is why having sense life allows you to know that there is something alive in the room. What you detect with sense life isn't so much an aspect of visibility as it is the life energy present within the room.


But aren't you still implying that I can't see a person's effects on the room? If there's nothing there for me to see, then light sources still shouldn't work, should they? Wouldn't you be suspicious if you walked into a lit cave with no visible light source? That's an immediate indication to your senses that there is something there to see. If magic is distoring what my eyes can see to tell me that there is nothing there to see, it should not allow me to tell that the room is lit.

Also, would you then say that if an invisible person throws a switch no one sees the switch as thrown? Heating the room is as much as effect on the room as is throwing the switch, and just as perceptible. Tossing a club across the room? Where are the lines at? Obviously when you see a club go flying across the room you're going to realize something is there.

I think these are clear examples that the actual intent of invisiblity is to prevent a person from being seen, but that the spell is not intended to prevent a person's effects on their environment from being seen, such as lighting it, throwing switches, kicking stones, and heating rooms. While a person with infravision would not be able to identify an invisible person, they should be able to tell that a life form is present in the room.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:00 pm

One mud I played had a pretty cool way of dealing with invisiblity. Any lit, glowing, or humming objects on an invisible player made them detectable by anyone. You would see something along the lines of:

Someone is here carrying a hooded lantern.
Someone is here carrying a humming dirk.

In other words, you would be able to see all objects a person was carrying or wearing that had an effect on the environment. You would know someone was there, even if not who, because you could see the impact they had on the environment. I always wondered why you could tell what the items were, but I still think the idea is neat. Something like:

A faint hum is heard moving through the room.
A tiny glow moves about the room.

They didn't deal with infravision and invisibility though!

(not that the rogues would love me, but on the mud in question this also played into hide and sneak ((perhaps it does here, I don't know)) - hiding and sneaking are hard when your items are glowing and humming!)
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Postby icecillam » Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:57 pm

Does sound nifty. Tho if you're detecting invis on something, you'd probably have to have the entire room dark. Otherwise that lantern you are carrying, or brightly lit item you're wearing would probably flood out any visable clues. I cant imagine you're able to farsee 50 feet into the next room and see someones handprint there so it'd be a same room only type deal. Which would probably defeat the purpose cuz you cant get your lantern out of a bag when its dark and make the whole coding of this kinda pointless.
The someone is humming here would be kinda nifty, I'm not sure there are enough humming items to make it worthwhile tho. It'd probably be a pain to strip all your lit items and humming items in order to have invis or hide work. I can imagine the uproar from the good side already. Quite a few of us evils are already just red shapes.
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Postby Salen » Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:36 am

OMFG DEAL WITH IT.

Why the hell have DI if infravision sees them. You'd make any !infra race obsolete. Would I like to have my infra on every character I have see invis so I never have to worry? YES. Would it make 1 F'n bit of sense? NO.

Why is it that way, cuz this game still has a little bit of basis from D&D. If you don't like it, argue with Gygax.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:38 am

I'd love to be able to see invis players on the wholist!!! (ONE of my chars doesnt have the di spell :P) or why can't tells be ooc (i have a LOT of ultravision friends)

oops wrong thread!
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Postby rylan » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:17 pm

Salen just owned this entire thread.
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Postby Ebgar » Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:35 pm

agreed!
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Postby Caedym » Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:48 pm

othelil wrote:BTW, to respond to myself, this is not to say that the logically interpreted infravision would only have advantages. What would happen if someone really filled a room with fire breath, inferno, lava burst, etc. and you could see infrared light? Well, you would be blind until the heat began to dissipate. And if someone filled the room with ice breath, a blizzard, etc? Well, temporarily infravision would be meaningless. These would amount to one/two combat round losses in vision/infravision respectively.

Just a thought I was having.


OMFG you're holding a debate with yourself.

Here's a thought. Unplug. Go outside and enjoy the fall weather.

PS. You're not getting predator vision.

-Caedym Shadowhock
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Postby Sarell » Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:06 am

does this thread take the new crown for nerdiest thread on sojourn bbs? *touch*
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Postby moritheil » Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:10 am

Ebgar wrote:agreed!


agreed.
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Postby Ensis » Sun Oct 26, 2003 3:43 am

i agree with olithil, this fictional text construct based on fantasy just isn't realistic enough.
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:11 am

its magic cuz ... its MAGIC.

Can anyone point me to a definitive definition of the spell "invisibility"?

Can someone even guarantee to me that each mage's spell of "INVISIBILITY" are materially the same?

Do you think a drow mage would call an incantation "invisibility" if it didn't make you invisible to ultra? He'd probably just junk that spell as worthless.

Yes saying its magic is a cop out, but magic defies the normal, thats why its called magic. Its magic that blocks the body heat but allows light to escape. its magic that allows mages to call down infernos that ravage their enemies but not their comrades.
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Postby othelil » Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:24 pm

Sorry, was on a pseudo vacation. But it doesn't look like I missed any substance. Ah well!
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:28 am

General Response:

The "it's magic" argument is a cop out not just because it tries to silence a simple argument without any form of logic, but because it implicitly denies that a fictional word can have a logical basis. In other words, this fictional word we play in should not have any relation whatsoever to the real world we live in, is the subtext of the argument.

That way I can say that "flight," which is hardly a fictional construct, does not allow one to remain in a room without ground. This is the same idea that the "arguments," if they can be called that, contain above. Even though we understand the notion of flight, and we know what should happen, we should ignore the logical implications of this fictional ability.

Essentially these arguments deny the idea of logic in a fictional world. Anyone who has argued for liches to get the ability to see in all forms of light, or argued that backstab should not work against immaterial mobs should never try to use this argument or should expect to never be allowed to use logic to explain something in the game world again.

You cannot haphazardly apply logic where you choose and how you choose. The idea behind a fictional world is to create a coherent environment where even the fictional elements tie together into something that is understandable by the residents who can then apply logic to infer the rules of the this new environment. We should at all times be able to understand why things happen and why they don't. When this logical analysis of our environment breakd down we typically ask the staff why these disparities occur.

Even more importantly than the applicability of logic in a fictional world to fictional concepts, "infravision" as the ability to see infrared light is not even a fictional idea. If you do not wish to give these abilities to infravision, then to prevent a breakdown of logic within the fictional world you should make infravision a new idea separate from the real world entity and define it in the fictional world how you choose.

In other words, please use "logic" when arguing things. Logic is still supposed to apply in a fictional world, and it is up to the fictional world's creators to make sure that the world still seams together. Since they define the fictional concepts, that part is easy. Making the fictional concepts work with real world concepts is where things get tricky, but also where they get interesting.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:34 am

Salen:
Don't forget your ritalin, and please read more thoroughly. I said that infravision should allow the detection of an entity in the room, not that it would permit the identification of said entity. In other words, detect invisibility would still be necessary to act upon the entity in any way. This in no way makes detect invisibility obsolete, and in fact it actually make a fairly large amount of sense.


Ambar:
I heartily agree! Who is not a construct of the fictional world and therefore should not be impeded by invisibility or darkness. But like you said, that's another thread . . .


Caedym:
Been outside for about a week now. Now that I'm back in California where I find it hurts to breathe outside from all the ash and I need to catch up on my work, I think I'll take a break inside. Good advice for someone I'm sure though, perhaps you should take it instead of staying inside to give it? I do always find these little tokens humorous, people who monitor discussions, provide no useful feedback, and then attempt to demean a person who is simply trying to provie real feedback, all in an effort to make themselves feel better. Maybe you should go to a support group.


Ensis:
Perhaps you should read a scientific journal now and then so that you can become aware of the fact that infrared light, which is what infravision is purported to reveal, is not a "fictional text construct" based on "fantasy." It is quite the opposite. While no natural entities that we know of can detect infrared light, humans have adopted methods of detecting those lightwaves and perceiving them with normal vision. Therefore infravision as currently defined is a well understood real world construct, idea, concept, whatever you prefer to refer to it as.


Sarell:
Just maybe!


Kiryan:
See above, but specifically even within my idea a person remains invisible to ultravision and infravision, however their presence becomes detectable. There is a distinct difference here.


Moritheil/Ebgar/Rylan:
If your idea of "owning" a thread is for a person to use as many obscenities as possible while lacking any real form of logic or adherence to the actual points of the argument, then I agree with you. Salen did do an excellent job of arguing a point that was never brought up.
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Postby Salen » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:46 am

No, under your example it makes sense life obsolete. Either way you pick it, your idea already exists, thus any change encroaches.


But, since I have nothing better to do atm, Invisibility is an effect. It blocks ALL vision (Infra,normal, ultra) from seeing the target. As an elf, I would EXPECT invisibility to stop my natural senses, and the dirt pixies would EXPECT it to stop theirs also. If it didn't block all sight, there would be no reason to cast it.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:48 am

Here is your answer.

Sojourn, and Forgotten Realms in general, operate in a world where the laws of physics you are familiar with do not exist. The first law of thermodynamics as Newton stated it tell us that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed in form. Yet we have numerous spells in the game which spontaneously create matter, minor creation being one of them. We also have a whole list of spells which spontaneously create energy, such as most Invoker spells. The spell Inferno creates an immense amount of fire and heat with no fuel and no catalyst other than a somatic and a verbal gesture, a concept that is impossible under "realistic" physics.

Matter can also be destroyed very easily within the context of the game. If you don't believe me, drop your flamberge into the duck pond and then try to take it out. Submersion in water is enough to obliterate solid steel. Again, this is nonsensical from a physics standpoint.

Even the law of gravity is flexible. Spells like levitate and fly allow you to resist gravity without any tangible force being applied to your body.

I could keep going all day. So why are you trying to use real world physics in an attempt to confer "realism" to a game where all the rules are different? In the Sojourn physics system, invisibility masks heat. It does it the same way that Sandstorm spontaneously creates a whirlwind of sand, even when you're in a volcano or a thousand feet above ground level. If you think that's a cop out, too bad. If you have such a hard time with the concept of "suspension of disbelief," I find it amazing you're able to enjoy a movie or television program without pointing out all the logistical flaws in the presentation.

Or are you that guy who saw The Matrix and wouldn't shut up about how it couldn't really happen that way? :)
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Postby Iyachtu » Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:02 pm

othelil wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Sigh. If we used rules of logic about the magic used in game, then we'd have to toss the entire game out the window and do without. It's a fantasy, hon, it's not real, and because it's not real it doesn't necessarily have to make sense. If it made sense, there's good odds we would have made it work in real life by now. Has anybody else noticed that having skin like stone would cause large-scale necrosis and subsequent sloughing of the flesh?

With that in mind, do feel free to continue your arguments as to why it should work however you think it should work.


There doesn't have to be much wrong with logic. The thing is, stone skin is not a real phenomenon that you can address easily about the mechanics. We know what infrared light is and how it works. If we're going to call it infravision, then it should work like infravision. Otherwise give it a different random name and say it does whatever you want. I'm actually all for giving it a different name and saying it does something different. It's easy to see how looking at the definition of infravision could break any number of spells:

Mirror Image: This is an illusion, anyone with infravision would see the real image radiating heat and not any of the others.

Displacement: Another illusion. Yes you're displacing the victim, but are you displacing his heat patterns? If so, then it's not an illusion, you're actually moving the person. So a creature with infravision knows where the person is standing by their heat patterns.

Blur: Anyone with infravision is used to looking at very blurry outlines around all creatures. Nobody would really want to wander around looking at the infrared spectrum all the time, but that's besides the point. The point is they're so used to this it shouldn't really matter.

Fireshield: Anything with fireshield, warm blooded or not, should be detectable via infravision.

Anything that moves and thus generates friction should at least have its movements detectable via infravision.

You could really go anywhere with it.


You could, but should you?

The real question here is what does 'illusion' mean? To you it means one sense, vision. All an illusion needs to do, in your view, is prevent you from physically seeing what's there, and present to you another view that is desired by the creator of the illusion.

Unfortunately, that's not really what an illusion is. Professional magicians cannot simply trick the eye and ignore all other senses, as this type of illusion would be 'seen' through immediately (note, not with the eyes). If you're going to make a tiger 'disappear' on stage, you'd do well to make sure they can't hear it roar, otherwise the illusion is broken, no matter how it appears visually.

Illusion is centrally about tricking the senses of others. You don't make something actually disappear, you make it appear that it's either not there, or that something else is there in its place.

Give a real-life professional magician access to powerful magic and you can bet they wouldn't just be working on one of your senses, but would indeed be jacking all of them.

Remember, the mind sees what it expects to see. That's how illusions work.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:39 pm

Ragorn wrote:Or are you that guy who saw The Matrix and wouldn't shut up about how it couldn't really happen that way? :)


I claim the fifth amendment. Other than that both you and Iyacthu make significantly more compelling arguments and, since no one else seems to like the idea I'll just leave it be.

Thanks for the response, however. :D
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:46 pm

othelil wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Or are you that guy who saw The Matrix and wouldn't shut up about how it couldn't really happen that way? :)


I claim the fifth amendment. Other than that both you and Iyacthu make significantly more compelling arguments and, since no one else seems to like the idea I'll just leave it be.

Thanks for the response, however. :D


Took a while to accept being pwned?
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:51 pm

PS - the idea of owning a thread is one of domination. Don't try to assume just because Salen used obscenities that that was the portion of the thread we delighted in. Rather, he pointed out a critical flaw in the premise of this thread with regard to gameplay.
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Postby othelil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:11 pm

moritheil wrote:Took a while to accept being pwned?


Took a while to accept that logic applies where people want it to apply more than anything else. In other words, people didn't consider it a worthwhile feature (or considered it unbalancing) so logic doesn't apply. If people had liked the idea, logic would have applied. The above arguments, while thorough, could still work both ways.

Invisibility, being a poorly defined concept, is certainly subject to interpretation, and the broad definition we have adopted here that it masks a person's presence in the room is counter to the "typical" interpretation involving an inability to perceive corporeal substance. It still can be, however, an acceptable interpretation but I emphasize the word "can" and refer back to it depending on whether or not people want it.

As for owning the thread, I was simply frustrated with Salen missing the mark of the post completely and then being agreed with. His remark, "Why . . . have DI if infravision sees them," neglects that you would still require that ability to be able to interact with invisible entities. I do agree that it would put !infra races at a disadvantage, but since infra right now isn't worth a whole lot anyway I didn't see a problem with making it a little more useful. That is, of course, my opinion.
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Postby Salen » Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:22 am

othelil wrote: but since infra right now isn't worth a whole lot anyway I didn't see a problem with making it a little more useful. That is, of course, my opinion.


You'd be amazed at how important infra is.. an infra race summoner is huge

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