Synopsis: Role change for Necromancers and Liches

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Synopsis: Role change for Necromancers and Liches

Postby Joth » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:01 pm

Once again, a couple of my friends and I were talking about the different classes and the roles in the group. We still think that rangers need a specific niche role, but that not what this thread is about. This thread is primary purpose is to discuss the role of the Necromancer/Lich.

As of right now the main role of the necro/lich is damage, and assist in globes and haste, as well as banshee wail, and death pact. However, we are proposing a new role for them.

The new role would be the class that causes “area afflictions”. They might have less damage because of it maybe. Damage isn’t the primary reason why necro is brought into a group as long as there are Invokers around (and maybe rangers/rogues after equipment melee upgraded), which is their role; and with elementalist/enchanters having globe/ward, and both have haste (also maybe haste items will be in), the necro/lich role is secondary. The new spells that necros/liches, should get to aid their role are as follows:
Area Affliction Spells:

Black Light Burst (They should defiantly get this)

Plague – Area effect stumble, fumble, and ray of enfeeblement, disease damage over time (5-15 a tick).

Area effect Blind- (This could be debated, would defiantly be in the top 10th circle; in addition it would give Evil Race, access to area blind effect. And just like most spells are shared, I think the necro having this fits their class and role with what we are trying to accomplish.)

Other Affliction Spells:
Vampiric Curse:
Banshee Wail

Utility:
Remove Globe/haste from the class and adding their MAJOR NICHE:
ANTI-MAGIC GLOBE/ OR SHELL- This spell would provide 5-20% magic resistance. With hp equipment being down graded, this spell would be helpful. In addition, it would be a PRIMARY reason to bring a necro/lich in the group. This would be a 9th circle quest spell, and might be only for necros, unless some changes were made to liches.

After all this is done there could be debate about reduction the Necro/Lich damage. But we didn’t know how, or how much, or if any. Should be interesting what others debate: a lot are always going to be against change, but we think this is great for the role that the class does. And hopefully people will stay on topic and not talk about other classes P-).
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Re: Synopsis: Role change for Necromancers and Liches

Postby irta » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:29 pm

I'd argue first off that necro's damage dealing capabilities are a major part of why they're added to groups. All the time , groups say get an invoker or a lich. But let's ignore this for the time being, as you say you are willing to discuss damage decreases, or adjustments to other classes so that necros don't dominate.

Black Light Burst sounds fine to me RP wise.

Area effect blind is an incredibly powerful spell and I don't see why necros should get it either RP or balancewise.

Plague sounds alright to me RP wise.

Removing globe and haste diminishes the class only slightly (like you say enchanters and eles can do the same thing).

Anti-Magic Globe or Shell is an enchanter type spell. I don't see the RP justification. Be nice for enchanters though.

I like it though, especially the overall concept of a class that causes area afflictions rather then damage. I fear though that if necros were dged damagewise to balance these changes that vokers would dominate groups more then they currently do. If these changes are made, the balancing needs to be at a high-level, not just reducing necro's damage.

the Irta
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Postby Joth » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:45 pm

The anti-magic shell or globe could be name could be change, the main effect though is to cause magic resisitance. And all undead have magic resisitance. Something like Ghostly-Aura or Undead-Aura could be the name for it to have the resultihng effect be 5-20% magic resistance, and might be in 8th circle instead of 9th with the magic resistance increasing as the person levels.

So no more Anti-magic globe or shell,

"Undead Aura" - This is will the primary reason to bring the class

As to the Area blind,(something like "Darkess Hour") , again a class get it 5th circle, and this spell would be in the 10th circle conflicting with other powerful damage spells, and deathpact, and banshee wail.
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Postby Todrael » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:38 am

I wrote up 10 pages of stuff about this exact topic (switching necros to debuff instead of damage) and sent it in back when Necros were first getting reviewed by Iyachtu. They declined to implement it. The only new thing I suggested that got put in was Banshee Wail (room hex).
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Postby Joth » Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:05 am

Well maybe we get them to look at things again, who knows. I can see the reasoning for and against having the area blind effect spell, like darkess hour; however the other items of:

Black Light Burst and Plague should be added. In addition too Ghostly, or Undead Aura should be added as well, for the PRIMARY REASON to have a Necro/Lich. And it should be low enough maybe for the ghost to cast it on others as well.

Unless class is the BEST at doing something, or have some niche spell, they will be over looked. So if their is 1 or 2 other class out their that might outdamage the necro/lich that class is still though but people still look around.
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Postby Azenilsee » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:00 pm

I would bring a lich just for deathpact alone.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:34 pm

all we need is better spells against undead
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Todrael » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:00 pm

I wrote the following document in January of 2002. I edited it to remove some stuff that was quite out of date. I don't necessarily agree with all the ideas here any more, as I feel the lich and necromancer class have finally achieved a bit of stability, and won't be downgraded to hell and back in the future. Plus, my rage over things like fell frost, lich hometowns, and worthless undead has either diminished or been fixed. I'm posting this so people that are interested in this thread might have some more stuff to work with, if they so choose.

---------------

The Comprehensive Necromancer/Lich, by Todrael
(WARNING: Very Long)

Problem: Necromancers and Liches have lost their ?vision? and class role in the game.
Proposed solution: The addition of more reliable and effective negative status effects, coupled with the overhaul of some older spells, will allow the Necromancer and Lich to affect the outcome of a battle without pure damage, and allow additional group scenarios to the completion of particular battles, giving them a true niche in the game that is unique and satisfying.

All right, now that I've stated that, I'll get down to a very lengthy discussion on my own perception of the mud and the grouping dynamic. Note that all of these observations are from the EVIL side ONLY. There is a large difference between the abilities and tactics of the evil and good races, and this should be taken into account. I'll attempt to start out general, outlining my own views of how battles are fought and won, and what might be attempted to make this more 'fun' for certain classes then work my way into more specifics based on the Necromancer and Lich classes.

I have observed that there are three basic aspects of the mud: roleplaying, questing, and combat. Of these, two are optional, questing and roleplaying. Combat, however, is required for almost any kind of advancement of the character. In combat, there are three basic principles: protection spells on group members, debuffing spells on enemies, and straight damage. I know this is an oversimplification, but it will serve the purposes for the explanations and arguments that I wish to convey.

Of these three aspects, only one is truly necessary, straight damage. Protection spells might be considered necessary, but many mobs can be killed without them. Debuffing spells are very useful in particular situations, but in general are not as used as they could be. The mud has been moving in a direction favoring straight damage. I would argue that there are two possible equations for players to defeat mobs: Damage vs. HPs, and Debuffs vs. Mob ability.

Debuff spells, although individually seeming powerful, are not used for the most part except for twinking. There are several reasons for this. One is the value/time ratio. Very few battles go past 20 rounds unless additional mobs are constantly walking in to replace dead mobs. I use 20 rounds as the base for this from personal observation. A debuff spell takes time to land. Casting time, the mob saves so you have to cast it again, and the lag after the spell, etc. Time, however, is extremely valuable, and spending your time attempting to make one particular mob in the room slightly easier to defeat is by far not the best option for 95% of the mud's fights.

Enchanters, notable as the mud's best debuffers, are required to keep aspect #1 of combat going, protection spells, up on group members. Cleric classes, another generally good debuffer, are required to be healing or stunning with their time. Illusionists are required to displace and/or stun the mobs instead. And then there's damage, of which all the other classes apply in a constant brute force to multiple mobs to produce their demise in a quick and efficient fashion.

The most often used debuff spells from my observation: prismatic spray, major paralysis, power word blind, silence, and sunray/glitterdust. The reasons these debuff spells are used the most: most effect on the outcome of the fight with the shortest time spent doing it. In other words, the highest value/time ratio. Power word blind, silence, and major paralysis are all used because they can completely incapacitate or bypass a mobs offensive ability. Prismatic spray and sunray/glitterdust are used because they apply useful debuff spells to a large number of mobs at the same time.

So, there are two reasons debuffs are truly used in fights: to completely incapacitate and bypass mobs offensive ability, or to apply a large number of debuffs in a short time frame. The first is often labeled 'twinky,' and many measures have been put into the game to prevent their usefulness in many circumstances. The second is made random chance for usefulness.

Now that I've got that set up and explained, I'll move on to the Necro/Lich classes themselves, and how they fit into this.

First, a bit of history. Since the beginning of Alpha, many changes have been made to the Necro/Lich classes. Many new damage spells were added, Blackmantle was added, and Vampiric curse was added. Rot casting time was increased, lich touch was changed significantly, and ice tomb was nerfed. Wraith AI and the ability of undead/pets in general were given a horrible blow, and the basis of the entire class collapsed. Then a major revamp, banshee wail and death pact were put in, lich touch was made to target all things (still not sure I agree with that move), undead were changed significantly, etc.

Throughout Beta, changes have come in clumps. First Abi Dalzim damage was downgraded, since Necros and their pets were doing too much damage. Then Wraith damage was downed significantly. Then saves were removed. These coding changes took place months apart, and do not appear to take each other into consideration. The resulting mix was a class that had one purpose: damage. And the damage it dealt had been steadily downgraded, again and again, until it was well below Invoker in ability, not to mention its limits on targets.

Obviously no mage class should deal as much damage as an Invoker. The downgrades to damage are then justified. Virtually every class has a good amount of damage now. The difference with other classes is their defensive ability is also very useful to the group, buffing the tanks and group members, protecting them and healing them. The Necro/Liches abilities are structured around their undead and damage. They can only protect and heal undead, damage undead less, etc. Since the role of pets has diminished greatly from previous wipes, that again leaves just damage, of which an Invoker again easily replaces them.

So. What to do? Every class has debuffs. But no class is -good- at it. No class has it as their 'specialty' or niche. A sprinkling of useful effects that people don't use is spread out all over the game. Not used because those classes specialize in other, more productive aspects of the combat equation. The Necro/Lich should not be protecting group members. Their protection works wonderfully for one aspect of their class: undead. A master of the Dark Arts and Necromancy would be able to cause havoc, pain, and death in as many interesting ways as possible. A class based on debuffs and negative status effects, with damage and undead as side benefits. To quote Kiaransalee: "Not necessarily capable of city laying destruction of an invoker, but powerful and feared for what they can do."

Here's a list of specific changes that could re-invigorate the Necro/Lich niche, with other miscellaneous changes thrown in to fix some of the frustration I have experienced with the class. Not all of these truly deal with the debuff role I've provided so far, the others are general changes to the class that would streamline it.

1) Remove the save against lich touch slow, lower damage a little.
2) Increase ice tomb damage or alter its other effects.
3) Liches immune to stun, lich procs, take half damage from venom.
4) Locate remains be targettable by specific name, and global by that option.
5) Reduce rot casting time.
6) New spell: Reanimation. Reanimates 'killed' undead.
7) New spell: Unliving Aura. Lich only. Cast on self. Combination of control undead, turn undead, and protection from undead.
8) New spell: Eclipse. All in the room cannot see except the caster.
9) New spell: Examine Corpse. Determine what level the corpse is, and how long it is preserved for.
10) New spell: Death Armor. Cast on self. Feral mist that reflects spell damage dealt to caster.
11) New spell: Face of Death. Single target. Chance to stun, save or fear, save or minor paralyzed.
12) New spell: Rend Spirit. Save or hex, save or blackmantle.
13) New spell: Rend Mind. Save or feeblemind, save or confusion (rainbow pattern).
14) New spell: Rend Eyes. Save or reduced confusion effect, save or blind.
15) New spell: Rend Throat. Save or increased casting times, save or silence.
16) New spell: Rend Limbs. Save or drastically lower dex and to-hit, save or drastically lower agi and raise AC, save or disarm.
17) New spell: Rend Body. Save or enervate, save or ray, save or wither, save or slow.

More specific arguments/thoughts/ideas follow:
1) Remove the save against lich touch slow, lower damage a little.
Lich touch has been changed the most since previous wipes. It used to be arguably the most powerful spell in the game, dealing damage, and either slowing or major paralyzing the mob. Now it is a good amount of damage, with a chance to slow. The slow effect is also very powerful, and I believe that lowering the damage and making the slow no-fail would provide a very useful negative status effect besides damage.

2) Increase ice tomb damage or alter its other effects.
Ice tomb. Its damage is significantly less than 8th circle direct target spells of other classes. Its effects are virtually worthless, as I will explain. The major paralysis caused by the spell only takes effect if the mob is below a certain %age of hps, which I believe to be somewhere around 3%, usually into awful for most mobs. The reason this effect is virtually worthless is because, had the spell been lich touch, the remaining hps could have been taken away anyways.

The other effect is to destroy fireshields on mobs. This would seem to be useful. Sometimes it is. However, mobs that shield themselves have two options: fireshield and coldshield. Coldshield seems quite a bit more prevalent for some reason. Also, many mobs that have fireshield have it permanently. Virtually 75% of fireshielded mobs cannot have the shield destroyed by ice tomb, as it is permanent, even in many cases where this makes no sense at all. No mobs have permanent coldshield. (also note that a while ago the Lich Touch damage modifier for fireshielded mobs was modified greatly... this would have not been a problem if mobs didn't have permanent fireshield all the time). The third effect of ice tomb is added damage against fire based mobs. This means effreeti and fire elementals. Unfortunately, this effect is only worthwhile on non-flesh fire-based beings, as flesh-based beings have a much greater number of spells possible to damage them.

So, what could be done is to give it a new effect or increase the capacities of its current effects. The major paralysis could be made to have a chance (save) of happening with a greatly increased hp range, it could dest even permanent fire shields, or it could do something spiffy to wraithform mobs (the only reason I mem the spell is so I have a little bit more damage on fire plane) like major paralyze them (save) at any hp level, or prevent them from casting, like silence only more a paralysis of the limbs producing somatic components of spells.

3) Liches immune to stun, lich procs, take half damage from venom.
Undead appear immune to most forms of stun, liches are not. Undead are currently immune to poison, but PC liches take full damage from venom. It would fit much better if they only took half damage for the extreme acidity/whatever of the improved poison. The lich touch proc should not affect liches. As I understand it it's just a suped up version of the lich touch spell, which gives feedback when used on any undead.

4) Locate remains be targettable by specific name, and global by that option.
This is just a peeve of mine. The spell cannot be cast in many zones because it only lists the 25 most recent corpses in that zone, which often means player corpses might not even be visible, much less all of them (it's truly amazing how much death we produce). Being able to cast it at a specific name would increase its value tremendously. Leaving the option of no target would keep the limited use of finding a corpse to raise after just logging on, or checking who still has corpses inside the zone after/during a long spank CR. I also get asked numerous times to help someone find their corpse, but I can?t because I have to know which area they were in at the time.

5) Reduce rot casting time.
Living rot currently has the longest casting time of any offensive spell in the game, tied with creeping doom, more than inferno. In addition to the longest casting time, it also takes the longest to deal its damage, 4 full rounds after the spell is completed to do so. In addition to all of this, the spell gives feedback. Oh, and did I mention it doesn?t damage, undead, wraithform, or many types of golems? A spell that takes 8 rounds to deal its damage... when the fights last 20 rounds.. -if- you succeed on quick chant... and -if- the spell doesn't fail (10th circle. Also note failure of highest circle spells is usually on the last star).... and -if- no one else is casting the spell?. and -if- the targets aren?t undead/golem/wraithform. Rot?s casting time was originally increased because, in alpha, before the damage decrease, before the area limiters, before the casting time increase, before interference was added, before undead were made terrible tanks, before 2nd gate upgrade, two liches with l33t eq were able to get lucky and defeat second gate. So, I'd like the casting time reduced. These arguments could probably also be applied to Creeping Doom, although it has a wider range of targets it can damage.

6) New spell, reanimation, reanimates 'killed' undead.
One of the major detriments to Necromancers/Liches is the speed with which their undead are destroyed, and the fact that in many areas no living mobs exist to be animated. Reanimation would allow the Necro/Lich to animate an undead corpse, as long as it was being animated into the same type it was previously (lich, zombie, ghoul, etc). This would keep limitations in many areas, and would make undead more available to the Necro/Lich. Reanimating a corpse would also lower the new undead's level, so that a continuously animated undead would eventually be worthless.

7) New spell: Unliving Aura. Lich only. Cast on self. Combination of control undead, turn undead, and protection from undead.
This spell wraps the Lich in an aura of unlife visible to all other undead. Its affects only touch those that attempt harm to the Lich (aggressive mobs). Undead of sufficiently low level that attempt to attack the Lich are put under his control (<25). If he is currently controlling too many undead to assume control of them, they are destroyed. Undead of higher level that attempt to attack the Lich instead find themselves fleeing from the room (<40). Undead of more strength find them unable to overcome the apathy that strikes them whenever they attempt to attack the Lich, rendering them incapable of doing so (<50). Undead of the highest strength ignore the spells effects (aggro as normal).

I was going to suggest a necro-only damage spell to use against undead, but they were already added. Unliving Aura was the spell I was going to suggest replace that damage when the Necro became a Lich.

8) New spell: Eclipse. All in the room cannot see except the caster.
Short description is self explanatory. The duration could be very short or slightly longer. I feel it fits with the Necro/Lich theme, a darkness that only the caster can see through, spreading his diseases and plagues while covered from prying eyes. It would hinder groups as much as the enemy, and is therefore a solo tool.

9) New spell: Examine Corpse. Determine what level the corpse is, and how long it is preserved for.
Spell or skill, it would be used on player and mob corpses to give information about it. This information would include how long the corpse is preserved for, and what level mob/player the corpse is from. This would be especially useful in many situations, and although some have said it could be used to camp on a rotting corpse with eq, this is already possible, the skill adds no real new dimension to it, especially with the 18 hour rot timers.

10) New spell: Death Armor. Cast on self. Feral mist that reflects spell damage dealt to caster.
A shield of glowing green mist envelops the Necro/Lich. Whenever the caster is struck by magical damage from spells, the mist reflects some of the energy of the blast back at its source, damaging them in turn. This is just something I thought would be ?new? and interesting while not overpowering.

11) New spell: Face of Death. Single target. Chance to stun, save or fear, save or minor paralyzed.
Based on the proc the Shadow Giants have in the attic of the Monastery off BGR, this spell is the Necro/Lich projecting a horrid face that causes fear, sometimes even paralysis, in those that behold it. The chance to stun would be less than most ?stun? spells, as it is not meant to replace that very valuable effect from the other classes that use it.

The next set of spells is the new series of status effects that I believe truly redefines the Necromancer/Lich in a zone setting. Each of these five spells can be cast two ways: with a target as a single target spell, or without a target, as an area effect spell, similar to some bard songs. Used as a target spell, they apply a +2 save to the enemies they are attempting to affect (or other appropriate modifier) and have an increased (50-100% extra) duration.

These spells are powerful, and as such I can see some problematic issues that I will attempt to deal with by making them a bit more complex than they seem at first. Complexity might make them a bit harder to code, but leaving them as is would probably make you not want to put them in. Anyways, three problems: multiple casting undead using them at the same time would be ungodly, the duration on many of the individual effects would make them too effective in many zone fights, and spamming them in combat would almost guarantee an easy fight.

Since they would be so powerful when used by multiple undead, a quick and easy solution is to make it so that pets cannot cast this line of spells. The duration problem is fixed by, instead of leaving the duration up to the individual spell effects described, have every spell have a similar duration, around 4-5 minutes. This makes them still very useful in the vast majority of zone fights, while not replacing the single target versions in the much longer and more drawn out fights.

The third problem is one that can be fixed in a rather unique way. Spamming such powerful negative effects as area effects would hit most mobs with all of the effects after 2-3 casts. This is of course more powerful than my intention, but making the effects too hard to land is the exact opposite of the reason these spells are suggested.

(Digression): The invoker?s value/time is straight damage, causing the mobs to all die significantly faster. This means less healing is needed, less protection spells are needed, and the battles are quicker and bloodier. Mass status effects of the nature described below are meant to be used in large zone battles where straight damage has always been the norm. They are meant to replace damage in the value/time ratio. To do this, they must provide an equally valuable substitute to dramatically reducing the number of rounds of the fight. So, they dramatically decrease the ability of the mobs to strike against your group. The fight lasts much longer, but instead of the value being a shorter fight, the value is a fight where the same amount of healing and protective spells are required as if the player had been a Lich dealing as much damage as possible. I think this could also make fights more ?fun? for the players, in that longer fights where less instantaneous reaction is required can be quite a bit more dramatic/etc.

Anyways, the solution to the problem of spamming the spells several times in large fights is to flag every mob that the spells attempt to land on, then not allow the effects to attempt to strike that mob until after the flag is removed (the duration of the spell ends). Example: I cast rend mind as an area spell, it tries to hit Kostchtchie, but none of the spells land because he has uber saves. I cannot use this spell on Kost again until 4-5 minutes later, or it will have no effect.

These spells are meant to give the Necro/Lich a specialty that they can call their own. As I stated earlier, basically every class has negative status effects that are useful in zoning situations, from headbutt to major paralysis. Making this line of spells, a line of spells specifically designed for zoning, in a class that is otherwise basically damage would ensure their use in zoning situations and produce new tactics, a whole new ?flavor? of playing, in the way that ranged combat does to melee.

12) New spell: Rend Spirit. Save or hex, save or blackmantle.
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the very soul of his targets, sometimes causing it to become susceptible to other effects cast by the Necromancer alone, and sometimes damaging it to the point where the body cannot heal. The Hex portion of this spell should only affect the saves of the monster against status effect spells. Damage spells should ignore the save increase somehow. Alternately, it only allows damaged saves against spells cast by a Necromancer/Lich. The blackmantle portion might be powerful, but again, these spells are meant to be powerful, to be worthwhile enough to replace damage.

13) New spell: Rend Mind. Save or feeblemind, save or confusion (rainbow pattern).
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the mind of his targets, sometimes causing brain damage and enfeebling them for a short time, and sometimes causing blinding headaches and disorientation, causing the target to stumble around, confused, unable to focus enough to easily hit and cause damage in combat. Rainbow pattern is a spell that does not get used much, but again, these spells are not meant to ?steal? the abilities of other classes, it is meant to compile them into one class where they can become a true art instead of something the caster does if he?s not busy for whatever reason (rare).

14) New spell: Rend Eyes. Save or reduced confusion effect, save or blind.
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the eyes of his targets, causing pain, and blurred or incomplete vision, sometimes even causing a temporary blindness. A reduced confusion (rainbow pattern) effect is one result, blind another. Again, the rainbow pattern would not be as effective as in rend mind, or the single spell itself.

15) New spell: Rend Throat. Save or increased casting times, save or silence.
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the throats of his targets, causing damage to vocal cords that can strain them, or even cause them to cease to function. Silence is self explanatory, but the increased casting times effect I thought was pretty new/nifty. It would basically make the mob cast spells as if it was in a moderate amount of ress effect, never succeeding at quick chant, and often having an increase in the casting time of its spells to represent the damaged vocal cords.

16) New spell: Rend Limbs. Save or drastically lower dex and to-hit, save or drastically lower agi and raise AC (stumble/fumble?), save or disarm.
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the limbs of his targets, dislocating and twisting the joints, causing the opponents to sometimes lose control of fine motor skills, or sometimes full body movements, also with a chance to cause them to lose control of their weapon and send it flying. The disarm effect of this would have the same restrictions as whirlwind/dust devil. Stumble and fumble probably fit into this spell, but are not cast as individual spells because of their rather low value/time except in very long drawn out battles against a single opponent, which is under 2% of zone battles.

17) New spell: Rend Body. Save or enervate, save or ray, save or wither, save or slow.
The Necromancer/Lich attempts to rend the body of his targets, causing deadly withering, or a greatly decreased strength and ability to deal damage, or draining them of their physical energy, or slowing their movements. This spell would have a chance to effect the mobs with several status effects that, again, are not often used simply because there is no practicality to casting them individually for a zone battle.

These ideas as a whole would make the Necro/Lich more appealing to groups in a way other than their damage dealing potential, and to players as a viable class with its own 'niche': mass status debuffs. Many other ideas can be spawned off of these, such as new negative status effects that I might not have thought about, or different combinations of mass status debuffs. This would make the debuff a worthwhile tactic against the majority of zone fights, where they are currently worthless by the value/time approach except as a diversion from a class?s main use.

One thing I have left out of mentioning is what the Necro/Lich will sacrifice to gain this new power. It is my feeling that damage is the only thing left for us to lose, so some downgrades to spell damage would most likely be in order. Necros/Liches are just pretending to be an invoker, and every class has damage. Again, the purpose of the negative status effects is to replace the value of damage. Allowing the spells to land often enough against enough opponents would stop spamming the damage macro ?order followers cast ?abi?;cast ?abi?? and allow some true crippling of enemies without having to cut their leg off to do it.

Thank you for taking the time to read all of this. It was written with the intention of making the mud more enjoyable for those that play the class, and increasing the overall group capacity for variation in the majority of combat situations, a reverse of the 'brute force' problems shown on the mud. Even if my 'vision' of the class is not one that the staff wishes to apply, many of these ideas/changes are still viable.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:03 pm

with the current pet changes guys, you may not realize that pets wraith and lower had their levels LOWERED so the higher level pets could have theirs RAISED

removing haste from the necro will hurt them in the lower levels. if i dont haste my ghasts i cant kill things now with three ghasts that i could do when it was only two ghasts, no haste and they had a better chance of actually landing a hit.

who cares about globe. a chanter can globe just fine.

i asked about giving necros a blinding spell a few months ago. you all bashed it down then. what changed?
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:05 pm

Teyaha wrote:with the current pet changes guys, you may not realize that pets wraith and lower had their levels LOWERED so the higher level pets could have theirs RAISED

removing haste from the necro will hurt them in the lower levels. if i dont haste my ghasts i cant kill things now with three ghasts that i could do when it was only two ghasts, no haste and they had a better chance of actually landing a hit.

who cares about globe. a chanter can globe just fine.

i asked about giving necros a blinding spell a few months ago. you all bashed it down then. what changed?


no clue what you're doing wrong. I did 31-37 in 8-12 hours solo without ghasts
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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re: blind

Postby irta » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:12 pm

Teyaha wrote:
i asked about giving necros a blinding spell a few months ago. you all bashed it down then. what changed?


I think it was because Joth made it clear that he wanted discussion of the proposed changes and then later to talk about the necessary adjustments to necros and other classes to make it work out balance wise. As far as I can tell, no one has suggested giving necros blind without at least then considering what that's going to cost them. This is particular true since lichs are already good soloers, they like elementalists, just don't have as clear cut a zone role.

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Postby Joth » Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:18 pm

Again, this is to help in creating a solid role for necros/liches in groups.
and with the new spells to help in changing up the role, and move away from damage aspects to giving the classes greater amount of affliction spells, in addition to having one SOLID group combat oriented spell for the class.

Affliction (Debuffing):
Feeble Mind
Banshee Wail
Vampiric Curse (Also Group Utility)
Black Light Burst (Added)
Plague (Added)
Darkest Hour or Eclipse (Up for debate, but could be added)

Group Orient Combat Spell:
Undead Aura - Person gets a certain amout of magic resistance (Major Class Defining spell, like emboidment)
Death Pact
Vampiric Curse

Todrael:

We both are going in the sort same direction, but I think you might went a to far in that direction :), however you do say that you don't agree with all new concept. Also some of the ideas are interesting.

But At minimum the this should happen:
Undead Aura
Plague
Black light burst
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:41 am

care to share what you did dalar? seems you are unique in being able to do that. none of the other necros over 30 i've talked to on the evil side have been able to to 31-37 in 8 hours.

nonstop killing it took me three hours to do 31-32.
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:49 am

irta...who cares if a level 50 lich can solo...

i'm talking about implementing changes without screwing over the lower levels.

an elementalist at any level over level 26 out solos everything. a shaman once they get stone outsolo's a necro. but i dont care about a necro soloing..i dont want them to be downgraded any further.

pet levels were just DROPPED so you can have more spectres and ghosts. who does that hurt the most? remember because of the insane switching necros have to do all t heir fights invis. if their pets cant take the heat anymore it just makes the already difficult 20's even more difficult.

the end game needs some love, but do NOT sacrifice the beginning and middle game for it.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:11 am

Irta's comments about it not mattering if necros/liches lose globe/haste are incorrect! Elementalists can't do those spells in group, it demends us, it reduces us to the level of mere enchanters, and no elementalist would stoop to that! No, I think lichs/necromancers are the perfect people for that job!
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Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:10 am

Teyaha wrote:care to share what you did dalar? seems you are unique in being able to do that. none of the other necros over 30 i've talked to on the evil side have been able to to 31-37 in 8 hours.

nonstop killing it took me three hours to do 31-32.


31 to 32? And you think that wraiths had the ability to cast haste before the recent change when your necro was 31 or 32? No, they did not.

Previously, at 31st level, you would raise a 26th level wraith. Now, at 31st level, you will raise a.... 26th level wraith. Haste is a 7th circle spell for a necro, and requires 31st level. Previously, you had to be 36th level to get a 31st level wraith, now you have to be 37.

There is one stretch in the wraith curve where they are 2 levels below where they used to be, which is when the necro is 41-44th level. Of course at 41st level you can raise a ghost, which is 41st level. Wraiths can in fact get two levels higher, in the end, than they could previously.

Incidentally, you can get 3 wraiths at 38th level now. At that level the wraiths are a WHOLE level lower than they used to be, so they're 32nd level.

As for 'pets wraith and below', you haven't tried it with a low-level necro. Skeletons, Zombies, and Ghouls are all much better level when you get them. And having more shadows rules for the level you have them.

Btw, confirmed with several necros that it was in fact 36th level before you could raise a wraith who could haste (this is from the most recent change... years ago it was lower).
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Postby irta » Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:09 pm

Lilithelle wrote:Irta's comments about it not mattering if necros/liches lose globe/haste are incorrect! Elementalists can't do those spells in group, it demends us, it reduces us to the level of mere enchanters, and no elementalist would stoop to that! No, I think lichs/necromancers are the perfect people for that job!


I agree completely. Actually, I was thinking the same thing as I wrote that as well that I wouldn't mind at all giving those spells up myself for extra damage or something else nice. I wish I had suggested it before Joth did, not that this should stop the gods from immediately implementing this change and giving eles a 10th circle damage spell. ;)

My comment was meant to try and indicate that if these spells were eliminated from the necro arsenal that it would not warrant any significant corresponding pluses (i.e. the rest of the spells Joth is looking for).

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Postby Dalar » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:53 pm

Teyaha wrote:care to share what you did dalar? seems you are unique in being able to do that. none of the other necros over 30 i've talked to on the evil side have been able to to 31-37 in 8 hours.

nonstop killing it took me three hours to do 31-32.


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Postby Teyaha » Sat Nov 01, 2003 4:16 pm

hey i like the new necro changes...i said that a few days ago. you've breathed new life into the class for me and i appreciate that.

um did you even read my thread completely ichie?

i didnt sayi had a wraith that can haste. where the hell did you read that? please quote it.

i haste my ghasts my damned self.

what drives me nuts on these boards is when you try to have a conversation, and someone jumps on your ass for something YOU DIDNT EVEN FUCKING SAY.

ghasts hitroll has been lowered substantially. that is very obvious to anyone playing a low 30's necro in the last month. this means i have to have three pets to kill the same thing i was killing withonly two.

yes pets have always been one circle below you. if you were 31, the caster pet was just now hitting 26. that's what i SAID

but when i raised two ghasts then someone said 'hey you can have a shadow too' and i rased that shadow, the shadow was level 21..ie. it failed the only coldshield it would cast. coldshield is 5th circle.

then a god talked to me about points, and that either: a: necro points were raised or b: pets levels were lowered. after seeing how poor the ghasts perform now vs. two weeks ago (ie. they miss a LOT) i'd say it's lower level pets.

at level 31 to 36 before this change two ghasts hasted were always better than the casters. they took down the mobs faster and healed them selves and you could have them rescue each otherif one was getting beat up bad.

so please, before you bash me, please read my f'ng threads completely. thanks.

oh an dont know what you mean by years ago it was lower. necro caster pets have always been exactly one circle lower than you since toril 1. i've had a necro 30+ on each incarnation of this mud (incidentally every time i get to wraiths the muds have pwiped/shut down including this one heheheheh)
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:01 pm

Teyaha wrote:ghasts hitroll has been lowered substantially. that is very obvious to anyone playing a low 30's necro in the last month. this means i have to have three pets to kill the same thing i was killing withonly two.


This shouldn't matter now since as long as your pets are grouped you receive all the experience. Why not bring 4 or 5? Your ghasts will hit better as you get more levels as well since their level is dependant upon yours. I use ghasts even now at level 49 to rip thru caster mobs, whereas before I stopped using them once I got spectres. Yes Tey, my ghasts vamp touch when I haste them very nicely. Not as good as a spectre, but then again they shouldn't or they'd be a better pet then a spectre. With the new changes Itchy has just imp'd, a whole slew of pet combinations has opened up. I'm doing things I've never done before with my pets combo's. It's very exciting!

Teyaha wrote: at level 31 to 36 before this change two ghasts hasted were always better than the casters. they took down the mobs faster and healed them selves and you could have them rescue each otherif one was getting beat up bad.


Better then the casters at what exactly? Tanking? Damage? Both? Instead of being so vague, speak up on which mobs are doing a better job then others. I think information like that would help lead to fixing the problem more likely. Ithcy has always loved very detailed feedback. Did you feel shadows tank better then wights or something? Or are you saying that now wraiths tank and do damage better then ghasts? or.. well what are you saying exactly?


Teyaha wrote:oh an dont know what you mean by years ago it was lower. necro caster pets have always been exactly one circle lower than you since toril 1. i've had a necro 30+ on each incarnation of this mud (incidentally every time i get to wraiths the muds have pwiped/shut down including this one heheheheh)


Necromancer/Lich pet system was almost the exact system for many years over the previous versions of the mud. It got a complete overhaul about 1 year after Soj3 opened up. That's when we got shadows, wights, ghosts, ghasts becoming more powerful then ghouls, ghouls being reduced in level/power, the need to soul bind a corpse, etc. Back before that when Todrael and myself were leveling up, it was the old system. Last year and a half here has been with Itchy's newer system. Well with the recent changes he's done, it's put us more in line with the power we once wielded, but this time with a HUGE variety of things we can do. Also during this intial soj3 system, we could get wraiths at 31st level, and then at 32nd they could cast every spell you could currently cast. Including globe. Well when Itchy put in the new system, they lost that ability. (I'm just using globe here as an example spell they could cast and then couldn't, ok? I'm sure there are others.) I went from having 3 globing hasting pets to 3 that couldn't. Now they can again. The pets are like Invoker minute meteors/force missile now. Not all that great when you first get it, but the more levels you get the more powerful they become. I think this is a great advancement with the class. It insures that some of your pets don't become obsolete in a few levels.
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Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:42 pm

OK, Teyaha, lemme clarify:

1. Necro pets during S3 were changed (about a year and a half ago), so that their levels were not as close to the caster. All pets were 5 levels below you, with the exception of the ghost which was 4 levels below you. Previously they could be within one level of you (In early S3 and S2).

2. I misunderstood one thing you said, because I didn't see the context. 'Taking haste away from necros', in one of your early posts here, kinda came out of left field for me, since we're not going to do that. I was trying to figure out how we did that, and just had to guess, so I assumed you thought that your wraiths used to be able to haste or something. They're certainly NOT going to lose haste.

3. Ghasts were not significantly downgraded in any way. I personally have been using them at around the level you're talking about, and they rip the hell out of mobs just fine. They may have lost 2 or 3 hitroll somewhere in the curve, but that's about it. If you use all of your spell selection (haste, wither), they tear things up just fine. If you've recently stopped using wither, that might explain the difference you're seeing.

In short, from playing a necro in the level range you're talking about, I don't see any downgrade at all. In fact, my experience is that I'm alot more powerful now.

As for jumping on you, well... who's the one who used language? I have been reading your posts scattered around on the boards. You have said 'lower level necros', 'lower level pets', etc, etc. I haven't been able to respond to you, because I can't look at the issue. You posted a little bit of level information here, and a VERY brief explanation of what you saw as the problem, within which you quoted something about losing haste.

I finally had a TINY amount of information that seemed slightly specific, so I posted. Sue me.
Last edited by Iyachtu on Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:46 pm

Bring back Vampires;)
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Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:13 pm

Also, keep in mind that the proc ghasts have affects their ability to hit (as well as any other hitters with you). Fights in which their proc doesn't go off go differently than fights in which it does.

I ran the numbers (which you can do yourself if you read my thread on the new pet rules), and they end up something like 2 levels lower at 31 and 32 than they did before.

Also, any time you can, your solid form warrior pets should use shields. It doesn't prevent vamp, and it gives them shieldblock and parry.
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:52 am

ok to address other points..

the max number of ghasts you can have, at least at mylevel, is three.

they are better than casters at damage because of vamp touch (tog yoru pet with it in room and you'll see what i mean) and tanking ability. theyheal themselves as they fight. with casters theres downtime even if you didnt cast a spell or onl had to cast 1 ray, 1 wither. shadows were king till you got ghasts because they are immaterial.

i'm fully aware of when what changed. i remember how it was a lotto when you animated. in soj2 it was made so you could choose what you animated. i remember spending three hours pressing and p harming corpses so i could TRY to animate a wraith. god that sucked ass and i'm glad we have what we have now.

i dont recall any of my caster pets being close to my level when i played. i remember tesi's necro at 50 having pets closer to her level but not int he 30's. i'm happy with caster pets being one circle below me. the fact that icthy said ghosts are my same level at 41 kicks much ass though.

i get pounded on these boards weekly itchy..i lost self control on the language a long time ago. sorry about that. but i also knew if i didnt head off your particular comment all my lovely board enemies would run with it for three pages in this thread.

my pets always have shields. i also had a 50 conjie on soj2 and only ever used earhth pets with a shield and a gcd. i'm not new to pet classes here.
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Postby Iyachtu » Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:03 am

The pets on S2 and before could be within one level of the caster, but to get that the mob you killed had to be exactly 4 levels above you.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:57 pm

Joth wrote:Todrael:

We both are going in the sort same direction, but I think you might went a to far in that direction :)


You can't change the role of a class without taking away a great deal of what's already there and refocusing it. Adding the spells you want is just an upgrade, pure and simple. It's not refocusing anything. It's giving us our damage, and even more besides. So instead of "the invokers with a bit of utility," we're "the invokers with a lot of debuffs and some utility." You say you're willing to address reduction in damage, but nobody seems to be debating that. If they add the spells you've listed, I would suggest they remove casting pets, and downgrade rot and lich touch significantly. Can you stand there and tell me that's what you want?

Balancing classes is very hard (understatement of the year). I'm close to having no problems with the current way liches are structured. That's mainly because I've been here long enough to forget about the stuff that I consider silly or annoying. Maybe sometime in the future I'll try again.
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:19 pm

the main problem as i see it, after seeing how todrael plays and other necros, is that the necro/lich class really needs no further changes - at least nothing as drastic as proposed here.

i have an enchanter. enchanters are probably the single most balanced class in the game and always have been. the day haste duration was increased i was dancing naked in the street! maybe necros just need some little tweaking along those lines.

right now the necro gives me a level of satisfaction and fun that no other class can, and i've taken every class in this game to 45+ except a shaman/cleric. maybe that will change when i'm in the 40's, but if my pets are my same level i seriously doubt that.

only playing teyaha is remotely as satisfying. please dont do anything drastic to change the face of the class. i like the small tweaks tod suggested. the major overhaul joth introduced benefits zoning, hurts xp. the game has two main parts - xp and zoning. dont kill one to make the other better. that's not good balance. :)
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Postby chandigar » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:06 pm

Necro != Lich

Lich's are balanced with other casting classes currently.
Necro's are not.

They're intended to be seperate classes (as confirmed recently) so treat them as such. Watching Todrael and Lynia play and saying Necros are fine is very misleading.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:12 pm

chandigar wrote:They're intended to be seperate classes (as confirmed recently) so treat them as such.


This is only a theory about one direction the admin might wish to pursue. It is not a set in stone plan of action.
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Postby chandigar » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:20 pm

Thats what was stated a couple months back, and confirmed in conversation less than a month ago...

But you're correct, if they decide that necro's are just lich's in training, I'm fully on board with keeping them in their current ungroupable state.

No one has come out and said that yet, however, so i'm going to assume the original plan hasn't been changed and hope that something will be done.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:05 am

8)

Here's an idea:

Revamp the energy drain spell. As it currently stands, it is of very little use and that's if it lands, which it mostly doesn't. Here's what I suggest it turns into-

Fatigue
This spell saps an amount of movement from the target and has a chance of completely exhausting them. While in this exhausted form, they move from room to room slightly slower and it consumes more movement points.
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Postby Iyachtu » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:44 am

The recent changes are not everything that will happen to Necros. However, liches are done (as soon as I get undead vision ironed out).

And yes, that does mean that necros are going to get some things that Liches don't.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:03 am

8)

Let me help you along, then, Yak.

Malady, single target spell.
3rd circle

This spell infects the target with a weaker disease. These diseases are random, but will always inflict the target with a disease it doesn't have, if it is already diseased.

Weak Diseases:
Fever: The target suffers a slight weakening effect and has a higher chance to drop his weapon due to his overly sweating hands.

Nausea: The target is wracked with great stomach discomfort, making them slightly easier to hit and giving them a chance of missing a round of combat due to heaving and wretching.

Hallucination: The target's mind becomes addled and slightly confused, giving them a higher chance of aborting their most powerful spells and a higher chance to flee unsuccessfully.

Infection, 6th circle single target spell.
Similar to malady, but with stronger effects.

Shakes: This ailment makes the target shake violently, decreasing their hitting abilities and increasing their chances of missing bashes, trips, while making them more vulnerable to knockdown effects.

Hacking Cough: The target's lungs become infected and they cough and wheeze, having trouble breathing. This causes the target to cough racously at random intervals, doing damage to them and stunning them of a short time when they do so.

Bleeding Sores: The target's skin breaks out in sores and their flesh becomes soft. They take a little bit of damage each round and every melee hit they take does more damage, as they bleed profusely.

Contagion, 8th circle room spell
As infection + malody to each person in the room.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:25 am

The ideas Todrael reposted here I've thought about a long time, and did a lot of rethinking lately because of this thread. I was going to suggest this indepth idea about lich specialization that would effectively lead to 3 different kinds of liches (because of 3 different lich specializations - with people recently and previously asking for further specializations and remorting and such, I felt this could be a way for one class to deal with it). One specialization that debuffs like Tod mentions (but has lower pet abilities and reduced damage all around). One that increases their control over undead (5 wraiths at 50th for example or 3 ghosts) and the ability to effect them both positively and negatively. And the third and final specialization for a lich that would lead them to stay the way they are, but to gain an incrase in spells of similar power levels but that effect different target types (mainly demons/devils/angels/constructs/elementals - having an increased chance of cutting thru any magic resistances of these creatures). But..

I'm not going to. I don't see a point in it. The lich class right now is very balanced. The things we've been asking for over the years are being dealt with as we speak. I haven't played my lich effecitvely for I dunno 8 months or so. Now I love her as I loved playing my necromancer all over again!

If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing Todrael's lich ideas of a debuffing lich, instead turned over to the necromancer. So that a debuffing necro gives up his debuffing ability for increased damage if they choose to lich. Very appropriate from an RP standpoint if you ask me. And an interesting game point.

I don't know the direction Itchy is heading in with the Necromancer, but I hope it is in this type of direction. It would make the choice to lich or not to lich that much more meaningful. As it stands, there is no demanding or overwhelming reason not to. (Vampiric Curse just doesn't do it, nor would just one spell).

Perhaps a new question would arise to 50th necromancers:

Do I want to stay Utility or spend a lot to be Damage? (I'm generalizing)
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:54 pm

8)

Here's some more ideas for necro spells:

Energy Leach 10th circle necromancer spell
Target:self

This spell is similar to vampiric touch, but can be used repeatedly as long as the duration of the spell. Undead can't cast this spell.

Encrypt 8th circle necromancer spell
Effect:room
Arguments: hallow or nothing

This spell acts like inter for all corpses in the room, including all corpses of players who are consenting you. Unlike inter, you can choose for this spell to send the corpses to your hallow or just into the ground.


Hallow 6th circle necromancer spell
Target: room
Duration: 5 minutes per level

This spell has a minute long casting time and can only be cast in a room with ground in it. Once cast, the earth begins to shift and roil underfoot and the necromancer becomes 'attuned' with that place. While the place is hallowed, any corpse in the area may spontaneously animate under the necromancer's control, but at a reduced cost in undead points. These undead cannot leave the room and become uncontrolled when the hallow spell ends. Two necromancers cannot share a hallowed room. If a necromancer casts hallow when he already has a hallowed place, the previous hallow fades and all undead there under his control return to the dust of the earth. Undead can't cast this spell.


Inter 3rd circle necromancer spell
Target: corpse

This spell checks to see if the necromancer has a hallow in the zone, and if so, sends the corpse to the hallow. If the necromancer does not have a hallow, it sends the corpse into the ground. This spell only works in rooms with ground. Player corpses this is cast upon requires consent and resurface when the necro loses consent.


Disinter 3rd circle necromancer spell
Target: name of pcorpse or nothing

This spell causes the earth to spew forth any corpses the necromancer has interred. If you name a players corpse, it will only disinter that one. This spell only works in rooms with ground
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:53 am

there's only one spell i'm looking forward to as a lich and that's embalm.

this is such an important spell. i'm all about minimizing my downtime, and one embalm is equal to like 10 preserves right? why not give necros embalm at 8th circle? if the plan is to make them viable seperately embalm is a HUGE thing. the other lich spells necros dont need.

debuff spells would only help in a group environment. because of all the switching necros below 40 or so wont have much use for them it's too risky to go un invis the higher you get.

i would like to see necros having more pet buff spells. lichs are all about the damage and have pets, necros are all about the pets right? give more variety in pet buffing - str/con, longer duration undead only haste, higher ac undead only armor, stuff like that.

just ideas...but my left arm for embalm!
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:54 am

there's only one spell i'm looking forward to as a lich and that's embalm.

this is such an important spell. i'm all about minimizing my downtime, and one embalm is equal to like 10 preserves right? why not give necros embalm at 8th circle? if the plan is to make them viable seperately embalm is a HUGE thing. the other lich spells necros dont need.

debuff spells would only help in a group environment. because of all the switching necros below 40 or so wont have much use for them it's too risky to go un invis the higher you get.

i would like to see necros having more pet buff spells. lichs are all about the damage and have pets, necros are all about the pets right? give more variety in pet buffing - str/con, longer duration undead only haste, higher ac undead only armor, stuff like that.

just ideas...but my left arm for embalm!
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Postby Todrael » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:21 am

I don't see why Necromancers should get embalm. All it does is save you a little bit of time. Preserve is cumulaive. Patience isn't even required. You have all the time in the world thanks to rejuvenation.
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Postby Nassis » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:31 am

Casting pres several times on a corpse to raise is boring bacause of the long casting time. Worse on lower level when qc dont help as much and you need more presses. So embalm for necros on a high circle is an ok solution, imo a better one is shortening the castingtime on pres.

Would have roughly zero effect on balance, all it would do is reduce tedium for all that cast preserve.

Boring is bad. Always try to make less of it...

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