Newbie friendly?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Lilithelle
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Newbie friendly?

Postby Lilithelle » Sat Nov 01, 2003 12:03 am

I think its great we're advertising to get more people to try TorilMUD, but what are we doing to get them to want to stay? What exactly is the point on all these agros being on the road out of Leuthilspar?

Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -W

< 854h/854H 42v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -W

< 854h/854H 41v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.
A large red beetle crawls around on the ground.

< 854h/854H 40v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W
A monstrous mosquito-like creautre hovers here.
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.

< 854h/854H 42v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -W
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.

< 854h/854H 42v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -W

< 854h/854H 41v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W

< 854h/854H 40v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W

< 854h/854H 39v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W

< 854h/854H 38v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -W
A gibberling slobbers around and makes a nuisance of itself.
A dragon beetle scratches at the ground, attempting to dig a hole.

< 854h/854H 38v/132V > w
Road through a Vast Forest
Room size: Large (L:75 ft W:30 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W
A hybsil looks warily about the area.
A vegepygmy explores the area.
A muscular, savage looking elf stands here.
A mound of rotting vegetation shambles around slowly.
An ankheg has burst from the ground and squirms in search of food
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Postby Selias » Sat Nov 01, 2003 4:59 am

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Lilithelle on this issue. It's been raised more than a few times, and something needs to be done about it. I don't see aggros on the roads out of WD, so why do elfies hafta deal with it? It's hard enuf being an elf on the island, please don't beat the n00b elves up too much.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:51 pm

Then there's the orog, stirge, and orcs that are agro and tracking :( oh yeah, gibberlings track too. Being stuck on EM is hard enough when most larger players leave the island. They can't leave town w/o having those bad guy trackers all over again.
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Postby Lirela » Sat Nov 01, 2003 6:12 pm

The elves are so protective of their people and their island, they wouldn't allow such atrocities to wander around openly on a high-traffic road like that either. The guards from the city shouldn't allow those monsters so close to the city.
othelil
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Postby othelil » Sat Nov 01, 2003 6:43 pm

I agree with everything above, especially the point from Lirela about elves not allowing this. Only slightly west of the most powerful elven guards one can find monsters that, while they wouldn't trouble any hardened adventurer, can easily bring down young elven adventurers.

Doesn't make sense from an RP perspective and isn't nice from a newbie perspective.
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Ulnd/Folrath
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Postby Ulnd/Folrath » Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:10 pm

We have enough elves on this mud anyways!. We don't want any more! chuckle

Seriously though, if you the stuff on EM then remove the orcs on the way from mh to wd too. A friend of mine who used to mud long ago, got killed by them orcs one to many times and just quit. He was a level 17 cleric and everytime he made the walk from mh to wd it seemed like they got him. Actually I don't really think that stuff should be removed just to make things easier as they add a danger element that I find amusing :). However, I do agree they should be !track at least.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:08 am

I still say you shouldn't lose exp if you die under lvl 10 and certainly should NEVER lose perm hps if you die and lose lvl under 25.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:39 pm

Elves = Lame

Who'll notice another dead one?
Stamm
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Postby Stamm » Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:49 pm

Perhaps a new roomflag could be put in?

The flag would prevent any mobs tracking in to these areas, regardless of why they are attempting to get there.

The problem is that it's quite a dangerous flag if used wrongly, and open for abuse.

A combination of this, the standard nomob flags on rooms, and making sure that global tracking mobs really should be global tracking should make it much less likely for aggros to be sitting where newbies might get squished.

The orcs on the road from MH to to WD should spawn off the path and a nomob room should stop them from getting to the path. And on EM the gibberlings could be kept in with the new roomflag.

There's a fair amount of global tracking mobs around... and I don't really think they produce the desired effect, it seems more common that global tracking mobs kill innocent people than they kill the people that messed with them.

The new flag might not even be necessary, it should be a last resort anyway...
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Postby othelil » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:20 pm

Ulnd/Folrath wrote:Seriously though, if you the stuff on EM then remove the orcs on the way from mh to wd too.


I think that this would definitely help for newbie friendliness, but remember, Elves can't go _anywhere_ without taking that road outside of Leuthilspar. Dwarves at least have in town places to go and other areas up north, although not many. Literally, a newbie elf cannot step outside of Leuthilspar without perhaps being slain by one of these mobs. Kind of silly. Although I guess they could exp on kooshies and birds :P
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Lilithelle
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Postby Lilithelle » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:07 am

Yeah, gods should try to make an elven mage and kill in the newbie zone. Its pretty rough going, elves need to be able to leave town to find things that are a bit easier to kill. The kooshie dogs hit HARD when you just have newbie eq, and the robins are really annoying cause they flee. and if your a newbie mages the robins usually heal up as much as you hurt them by the time you catch up with them after they fled and re-engage.

I mean seriously, when i started here i didn't know i needed a good strength to play an elf and i couldn't kill ANYTHING, the mobs regenned hps as fast as i could hurt them even when kept constantly in battle. Even then the kooshie, cats, drows, and robins are level 1 so they're really only good at level 1. The only evil mobs, i think the rest are good aligned (good aligned animals, go figure), is drow and they owned me when i tried them :(

And the orcs on the way to WD from MH definitely should be removed, thats just insane. The mounds are hard enough for newbies to get by, the orcs are down right impossible. There needs to be obvious easy to find newbie zones near gn/mh, or make the trip down easier.
Lil
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fun of danger

Postby irta » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:57 am

I understand the purpose, but danger is fun.

At least one goodie hometown should be permitted to keep a mobs dangerous to newbies. I know Hyssk is by far my favorite city on the mud for the simple reason that there is a sense of accomplishement of having survived growing up there and knowing that most of my fellow snakes did the same. No goodie city is even remotely close and I think this is regretable. Hopefully bloodstone when (if?) it returns will have the same danger everywhere feel to it and that leaving is difficult (like hyssk not a simple level restriction like leuth).

That said Tanji's idea of not losing xp til level 10 and not losing hps on deaths before level 25 makes sense.

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:45 pm

As much as I always hated those aggro mobs on the road out of Leuth, I always liked the fact that if the little ones couldn't hack it, there was one less elf around. I'm not trying to be unfriendly to newbies, but elves should be rare because of all the preening privileges we have. Let the ones who can't take it go play humans or drow.

If you can't nance with the big boys...

Get offa mah island!!!
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Postby othelil » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:50 pm

Ashiwi wrote:As much as I always hated those aggro mobs on the road out of Leuth, I always liked the fact that if the little ones couldn't hack it, there was one less elf around. I'm not trying to be unfriendly to newbies, but elves should be rare because of all the preening privileges we have.


Yeah, but does a warning like: "Evermeet is a dangerous place filled with hazards for newbies," sound like an accurate warning or even one that would make sense in the context of elves? RP-wise, there's no way those mobs would be there. Gameplay-wise, you need to warn the newbies if you want them to stick around.

We don't want people quitting because they couldn't leave the starting town of their chosen race. We do want new players, right? I think the "stuck on Evermeet for 20 levels" warning keeps away some would-be elves, make it a little stronger if you want.

You could always make elves marked as "for experienced players only," because we don't necessarily want new players thinking that there's never anyone to group with either. If you're brand new, it takes a while to get off the island and in the meantime you probably didn't group with too many elves. Kind of a shame.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:30 pm

We don't want people quitting because they couldn't leave the starting town of their chosen race.

buahaha Trolls??

I have recently played a grey elf (or two) ... and have talked with new people who have gotten frustrated ove this stuff ... something does need to be done to make EM a lil more friendly to true new folks
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othelil
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Postby othelil » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:37 pm

Ambar wrote:buahaha Trolls??


Yeah, but the evils are already flagged as "only play me if you know what you're doing or you're a masochist." I was thinking of good races only at the moment. The only good race that warns against anything is grey elves, and that's only that they can't leave the island.


Ambar wrote:I thought elves were flagged as one of the classes new people should NOT play ...


Well there are only three classes that are marked that they should play: humans, mountain dwarfs, and barbarians are marked as good starter races. But no race that isn't evil is marked as a "bad" race for newbies.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:38 pm

damn yer quick .. i edited it just after i looked for myself to see if that was true
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Postby irta » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:45 pm

othelil wrote:
Yeah, but does a warning like: "Evermeet is a dangerous place filled with hazards for newbies," sound like an accurate warning or even one that would make sense in the context of elves? RP-wise, there's no way those mobs would be there. Gameplay-wise, you need to warn the newbies if you want them to stick around.



I'd say get rid of the few aggros on EM before putting up that warning. EM is not threat free but it's not bad. Then remake Bloodstone to make a truly dangerous goodie city. Either that or redo EM to make it under constant attack by the yuan-ti and their lizard minions. Otherwise, you'll get newbies thinking it's comparable to growing up in hyssk.

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othelil
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Postby othelil » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 pm

irta wrote:I'd say get rid of the few aggros on EM before putting up that warning. EM is not threat free but it's not bad. [. . .] Otherwise, you'll get newbies thinking it's comparable to growing up in hyssk.


I agree with you, I was just thinking it's the only good race that you can't really leave the town without getting beaten upon only a few steps from the gate. It's not a danger for anyone who makes it to level 10, probably before that, but until then it's really frustrating to find you can't go anywhere outside town without dying (and since the mobs so low level and easily disregarded they amaze me even more - that means their purpose can only be to eat newbies :P)

We don't want to pad the walls, I just agree with Lilithelle that new elves should be able to walk outside of Leuthilspar unhindered by random annoyances. If they wander into high level aggros in Kobolds, Elder, Faerie, Drulak, Elemental Glades, Sylvan... well, we'll come rescue them. But let them at least have the chance to get somewhere. There's plenty of danger on EM for elves with a knack for finding it, that doesn't mean low level tracking mobs outside the gates should be part of it.

Finding high levels mobs in zones can be a learning experience but dying just trying to leave the town is plain frustrating.
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Lilithelle
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Postby Lilithelle » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:09 pm

For once I don't agree with Ashiwi, we need as many elves as possible to push back the human tide and hopefully take back the lands lost to humans and work towards the day the human menace can be banished forever from the world.
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Postby Lilithelle » Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:35 pm

Another thing I noticed is mob difficulty at level 1 doesn't make a great deal of sense. Level 1 animals which one would think would be ideal for exp hit just as hard as level 1 orcs, humans, etc. Be they lizards, cats, dogs, or whatever. Except for birds, which hit pretty softly for their level, that makes some sense. But insects and spiders and the like hit like trucks by comparison to birds. There are all kinds of small animals in Faerie forest on EM which one would think would be ideal for newbie exp yet hit too hard for people in newbie eq, like the butterflies and the worms. I'm thinking even a level 1 mage should be able to kill butterflies;) Maybe that needs to be looked at.
Lil
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Postby Gurns » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:30 pm

Some suggestions, although I haven't tried to play an elf since...um...the first Toril?

Quickest fix: Post a warning sign, just outside the city gates. "Danger! An infestation of vicious critters has infested the environs of our fair city. Until the guard can clear them, travel may be hazardous. You are warned, nance ahead at your own risk."

Perhaps something less wordy. Gives the newbies a warning, a chance to shout for help, whatever.

Less quick fix: Get rid of the tracking on all of those mobs. Fleeing is a fine skill for a newbie to learn. Yeah, deaths and frustration will still occur, but less than now.

Why these might be enough: My impression is that elves protect their own. That is, there are several high-level elves who keep an eye out for elf lvl 1s, who head back to EM to take a look at lvl 1s or 2s if it's at all convenient, and who help true newibes out with equip or other assistance when necessary. So if the gods provide a little warning/make it just a little easier for true newbies, then it is more likely that they will survive long enough for a high level elf to get to them before they quit. Given what is considered "hand-out" gear these days, if they can't survive with that stuff....
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Postby Stamm » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:24 pm

Hrm, there seems to be a bit of a reluctance to notice that nobody intended the aggros to be outside the Leuthilspar gates...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended that there should be nasty newbie killing aggros wandering or tracking to there.

If they shouldn't be there then it's an areas issue and it can be added to the list of things that Cyric and Dugmaren deal with, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to think your way around Evermeet placing !mob rooms where needed, or removing global tracking flags on mobs, where warranted, while still having little if any effect on game difficulty for anyone but poor little innocnent gelfs who wander outside the gates of Leuthilspar and have their weak elven hearts crushed by nasty orcs, gibberlings or any other assortment of !nance creatures.

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