Necro pet rules...

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Iyachtu
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Necro pet rules...

Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:51 am

OK, at this point I think the numbers associated with the pets are fairly balanced, so I'll give you a synopsis of how the system works.

1. You cannot have more than 5 animated undead pets.

2. You cannot have more than 3 animated undead casters.

3. You have a pool of points, based on your level, that determines what pets you can raise. I'll probably put this into the score command, so you can see your current status. You receive 1.2 points per level, rounded down (basically just take your level and add 20%). So, at 50th level you have 60 points.

4. Each pet has an associated point cost (towards your total pool) and a percentage of your level that it's raised as.

Skeletons are 1 point, and raise at 50% of your level.
Zombies are 2 points, and raise at 60% of your level.
Ghouls are 4 points, and raise at 65% of your level.
Shadows are 6 points, and raise at 70% of your level.
Wights are 8 points, and raise at 75% of your level.
Ghasts are 12 points, and raise at 80% of your level.
Wraiths are 15 points, and raise at 85% of your level.
Spectres are 25 points, and raise at 100% of your level.
Ghosts are 30 points, and raise at 100% of your level.

There has been some confusion recently about what level the wraiths get haste. Previously you got hasting wraiths at 36th level, now you have to wait until 37th.

Before my first revision of necros and liches, the pets could be within one level of the necro, assuming that you could find a corpse of the exact level to raise. At that stage you could raise a wraith when you were 32nd level that could cast haste. (Keep in mind this is about 2 years ago now). However, you didn't get a 3rd wraith until 48th level, if I remember correctly (the oblivion may very well have violated that rule).

I dramatically eased the restrictions on what corpses you could raise with the first revision (up to and including a 50th level char can now raise a 59th level corpse). I also added in a comment when you consider the mob telling you the best type of pet you can raise from the mob. (Though unfortunately it reports types of undead you can't actually raise yet, cause you don't have the spell... snicker).

In this revision, I upped the level that all of the pets max at (though on some it doesn't really get higher until you're pretty high up), and tried to come up with a system that could be relatively easily understood. Previously you had to know what level you would raise the pet as, and then a complicated formula controlled how many 'levels' of pets you could control. There were some odd spots in the curve where you actually lost one pet for a level or two.
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Postby Dizzin » Sat Nov 01, 2003 11:35 am

I may be misunderstanding something.. but does this mean that at level 50, any raised wraiths will be able to globe again? If this is true, then, well, nice!

Just from my calculations, 85% of 50 is 42 or so, and globe is now a 9th circle spell. Am I missing something?
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:28 pm

8)

I really like the changes to the pet system and think you did a damned good job, there, Yak. I find that my pets don't die nearly as often as they did before, so I might be able to ease up on constantly soul binding foes while zoning.

I have one suggestion, though. Perhaps you can change it so that you can have more than 5 animated pets, but they begin costing more and more as you add them?

For instance, for 1-5 pets, they cost normal price.
For the 6th to 10th pet, they cost 1 more points each.
For the 11th to 15th pet, they cost 2 more points each.
For the 16th to 20th pet, they cost 3 more points each.
For the 21st to 25th pet, they cost 4 more points each.

That way, if you wanted a horde of skeletons at level 50, you could animate up to 22 of them. I can see why you added the maximum pet rules, as under your system a level 50 necro could have 60 skeletons. Which would be very amusing, but exceedingly spammy.

I have another suggestion- might you simply remove the saving throw from soul bind? As it is now, when in zones with high MR and high level mobs, it might take me upwards of 10 soul binds to hit a single target. Then I've contributed nothing else while doing this, and if the mob's MR is high enough, they may still not be soul bound. Unless soul bind has any other affects that I'm not aware of, this would hardly make the spell any more powerful, just less annoying, as you could cast it once (or a couple of times if the mob has high mr) and then concentrate on other things.
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:27 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Iyachtu
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Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:08 pm

Dizzin wrote:I may be misunderstanding something.. but does this mean that at level 50, any raised wraiths will be able to globe again? If this is true, then, well, nice!

Just from my calculations, 85% of 50 is 42 or so, and globe is now a 9th circle spell. Am I missing something?


42 is the correct calculation. Enjoy.
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:56 am

omfg..this helped a ton man. thanks for the numbers.

i still remember how it was taboo to have even an inkling of how the mud's systems worked. the change in policy is very nice.
Iyachtu
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Postby Iyachtu » Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:49 am

Teyaha wrote:omfg..this helped a ton man. thanks for the numbers.

i still remember how it was taboo to have even an inkling of how the mud's systems worked. the change in policy is very nice.


Well, lemme explain that a little bit. Knowing what I know, the game isn't nearly as fun as when I didn't know it. I know that sounds odd, but I've worked on virtually every aspect of the game, at one point or another, even if it was just to check for bugs.

It's a bit like the Matrix. Instead of seeing blonde or brunette, I see numbers. I can reference in my brain what the odds of most of the actions I take are, and I can tell you that it doesn't really add to the enjoyment.

However, in the case of necro pets, it's always just been a ton of work for people to learn what the rules are. And then you end up with elite players who know the ins and outs of a system that doesn't really need to be that complex.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:40 am

Iyachtu wrote:
Teyaha wrote:omfg..this helped a ton man. thanks for the numbers.

i still remember how it was taboo to have even an inkling of how the mud's systems worked. the change in policy is very nice.


Well, lemme explain that a little bit. Knowing what I know, the game isn't nearly as fun as when I didn't know it. I know that sounds odd, but I've worked on virtually every aspect of the game, at one point or another, even if it was just to check for bugs.

It's a bit like the Matrix. Instead of seeing blonde or brunette, I see numbers. I can reference in my brain what the odds of most of the actions I take are, and I can tell you that it doesn't really add to the enjoyment.

However, in the case of necro pets, it's always just been a ton of work for people to learn what the rules are. And then you end up with elite players who know the ins and outs of a system that doesn't really need to be that complex.


agree
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Pheten » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:02 pm

I don't spose this could get a sticky added to it so its easy to find until the point system is added to the score table itchy?

-phet
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Postby Kossuth » Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:40 pm

Pheten wrote:I don't spose this could get a sticky added to it so its easy to find until the point system is added to the score table itchy?

-phet


I was thinking the same thing before I read your post that suggested it.

Hope this helps you icky necro people. :)
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Iyachtu
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Postby Iyachtu » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:08 am

Kossuth wrote:
Pheten wrote:I don't spose this could get a sticky added to it so its easy to find until the point system is added to the score table itchy?

-phet


I was thinking the same thing before I read your post that suggested it.

Hope this helps you icky necro people. :)


Icky, Itchy, whatever. 8)
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:46 am

When I order a pet to do something then leave to mem out, he follows me. I was told this was done on purpose to avoid som twinking. I hate it:P I LOVE the other changes, but I really dislike this one because it makes it more time consuming to carry out some orders.

Example: Order double banshee wail for spell hitting and move west to mem. Now they follow me out and lose the spell. I order them to do it. All my mental energy tells them to do it. They shoudl do it:P Any way to change that or is it just a thing that has to be done now that pets can be grouped or what-not?

P.S. Haven't really tested this in a few weeks. Not sure if its' still this way.
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Postby Ssryth » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:08 am

Mitharx wrote:When I order a pet to do something then leave to mem out, he follows me. I was told this was done on purpose to avoid som twinking. I hate it:P I LOVE the other changes, but I really dislike this one because it makes it more time consuming to carry out some orders.

Example: Order double banshee wail for spell hitting and move west to mem. Now they follow me out and lose the spell. I order them to do it. All my mental energy tells them to do it. They shoudl do it:P Any way to change that or is it just a thing that has to be done now that pets can be grouped or what-not?

P.S. Haven't really tested this in a few weeks. Not sure if its' still this way.


Think this was new code added so that caster followers aren't separated from their (mob) leaders as easily... the side effect to that is caster followers aren't easily separated from their non mob leaders ;)

Ssryth.
Kossuth
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Postby Kossuth » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:49 pm

FWIW, the point system is now detailed in "help undead points" so you don't have to come here every time you need to look at the list.
Kossuth -- TorilMUD Administrator



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Postby Sesexe » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:00 pm

Imagine if there wasn't the 5 pets max 3 casters max limit! (Yes I know it'd be too overpowering, I'm just kidding around!)

At 50th level you have 60 points.

Skeletons are 1 point, and raise at 50% of your level = 60 25th level warrior skeletons!
Zombies are 2 points, and raise at 60% of your level = 30 30th level warrior zombies!
Ghouls are 4 points, and raise at 65% of your level = 11 32nd? level warrior ghouls!
Shadows are 6 points, and raise at 70% of your level = 8 35th? level caster shadows!
Wights are 8 points, and raise at 75% of your level = 6 37th level warror wights!
Ghasts are 12 points, and raise at 80% of your level = 5 40th level ghasts!
Wraiths are 15 points, and raise at 85% of your level = 4 42nd level wraiths!
Spectres are 25 points, and raise at 100% of your level = 2 50th level spectres!
Ghosts are 30 points, and raise at 100% of your level = 2 50th level ghosts!


On a related note:
If only your raise points were based on your total experience instead of your level, that way folks beyond level 50 would have a reason to keep exp'n their necro's/lich's besides Tiamat exp buffers. (5 Spectres at 104th level! Rar! Err yeah.
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Postby Katel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:10 am

Sorry to resurface the thread, but I have some questions.

I have been told that equipment helps out your undead. How much help does it give them? Should I spend a lot of money gearing my undead? How do I know what weapons they are good with?
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:22 pm

Undead pets gain the same benefit from equipment that players do. Armor class, hit/dam, etc. They will gain the full benefit from anything you equip on them. Additionally, they are unhindered by standard wearing restrictions; you can pile on a bunch of whatever and have them wear all, and they will. If they get the kill, or are grouped with somebody who does, any equipment that is opposed to their alignment will zap and drop off however. But only then.

As far as expense towards equipping them, I wouldn't do a lot. With the unpredictability of crashes, any equipment upon a pet is lost when the mud goes down, be it crash or reboot. I found, playing my necro up, that the greatest benefit was to procure some cheap, decent ac gear for my ghasts. The improved armor class makes a ton of difference for flesh-form pets.

For wielding, your best bet is to let the undead use their natural attacks in my opinion. While true, loading up ghasts with proc weapons like a flamberge can increase damage, undead pets all have some natural bonuses to their unarmed attacks. The tank mobs, at least ghasts/spectres (all I recall) can vamp up, healing with every hit. Ghasts also can slow the enemy, which can make a huge difference in durability of your tank. For awhile, I tried letting my pets wield a sword from MD in hopes of blind, but keeping track of fumbles was too much of a hassle.

In short, I would recommend getting some inexpensive, high ac gear for your ghasts. If it has hit/dam that's a bonus, but go with the armor class first. Weapons are for the living, let the undead scratch and claw their way for your glory :)
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:33 pm

I have been told that equipment helps out your undead. How much help does it give them? Should I spend a lot of money gearing my undead? How do I know what weapons they are good with?


Even a pile of split shield junk on a ghast makes a world of difference.. warrior skilled pets (ghasts, wights) should always be equipped with a shield so their shieldblock/punch skills can fire. (brass blue fire shields used to rock as it often notched a pets con enough for more hp, unsure about these days)
As you progress, the gear you throw at the ghast tends to get nicer, but until you've got the plats to spare, I'd suggest not buying anything.
Wraithforms are limited to weight zero equipment, and are generally buff enough to not require the eq that ghasts need.

re: weapons, mostly agree with waelos, if you intend to use the pet as a tank, it should be unarmed so it can vamp (ghasts and spectres) As you get larger (and your pets as well) you'll find that you only need to dedicate 1 or 2 ghasts to tank duty, and the remaining ones can benefit from a cheap proccing weapon. I've been using gcd's lately, til I can get my hands on some ebonies.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:37 pm

I pretty much agree with what Sylvos said. Don't bother giving your pets good eq, but if you stumble on decent stuff while wandering around it doesn't hurt to stock up. (IE tiny silver rings from wd, Bloodstone eq).

I found up before shadows I tanked better than my pets. For wights I would give them a pair of cheap WD swords (get them enchanted by an evil/neutral enchanter if you can) and they seemed to do quite a bit more damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pre-ghast a wight or ghoul with a pair of swords gets more attacks than just using hand to hand. I think they only get dual wielding attacks when actually using a 2nd weapon. I found it definitely worth it to tank myself and just let my pets beat them to death. Keeping track of fumbles is a pain though. You might also want to try 1 barehand and a shield to spam bashes too.

A couple decent places to stock up:
- IC blue/white platemail boots and gauntlets, the platemail itself is decent too if you can't find better arm/leg wear for cheap.
- SS is a perennial favorite with lots of eq for most slots and illuminated swords for convenience.
- Swift Steel is a closer place to get some cheap armor and weapons.
- If you want shields, ask around if anyone has djinni shields from smoke invasion handy... everything drops them and they have decent weight.
- After a few levels, West Falls has a bunch of evil only eq thats not bad, and you can rip through it once you're in the middle levels.

Hrmm thats all I can think of offhand. Summary:
- weapons can be good if the pet is high enough to dual
- you probably tank better than your pet before you get shadows
- after you get shadows I found it still more efficent to get 1 shadow and a couple wights to dual melee damage
- once you get ghasts, forget about weapons, innate vamp touch >> all

edit: I dunno what lvl you are, so this is geared towards a lower lvl'd necro. Ignore me if you're like lvl 45 or something :P
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Postby Katel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:48 pm

Cool thanks for all the advice.

Right now, not only are the zombies tanking for me but they are doing most of the damage. I have like 5 following me around and i just order them to attack and wait for the killing blow?

Is that an incorrect use of zombies? I get the impression from your posts that I should be somehow doing a lot more damage. Most of my spell slots are dedicated to preserve and animate zombie. Only a few slots left for things like chill touch and magic missiles so I am relucntant to use them up
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Postby chandigar » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:12 pm

ahh ok, if you're at zombies, you might be ok. In a few more levels you'll probably find that creatures start out-damaging your pets quite a bit.

Well, I take that back, I think pets got an upgrade since I was at that level so it could be easier now.

Anyway... you've got a couple choices when you're using undead at the low levels.

The first decision is whether to group or not group your pets. If you group them, you always get exp but you have to share it 6 ways (1 + 5 pets splitting the exp). If you don't group your pets, you need to get the killing blow to get 100% experience or risk getting 0. One option is to just group them, then order them to flee out when the mob is at awful.. usually one or two will stay around to finish tanking the mob. You don't get 100% exp but better than having the full group in.

Unless you're wearing hitter or ac eq (unlikely if you're new) then you probably won't be doing too much damage. Nevertheless, don't disregard damage exp, at the lower levels its quite significant, making up a large % of exp gained from a single fight. You'll have to do some testing for yourself, but you might find it more worthwhile to get more nukes so that you 1. get damage exp 2. allow pets to tank for shorter amounts of time which means 3. you don't have to re-animate as often.

As always... experiment!
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Postby Katel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:15 pm

wow you actually get xp for hurting stuff, not just killing? ok gotta remember that. Thanks
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this is a great post,!

Postby Abbayarra » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:14 am

Trying out a necro and wanted this near the top so I could reference it easier!
:P
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:14 am

Last I saw about spectres is they cannot wear anything despite 0 wt.
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Postby Innova » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:11 pm

So the level of the animated mob, isn't affected by the level of the corpse at all?

For example: animating a shadow from a level 20 corpse, will give (basically) the same strength shadow as animating from a level 25 corpse? Once the mob is big enough to be used in animating a shadow, then the size of the shadow is only dependent on the caster's skill?
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:06 pm

Innova wrote:So the level of the animated mob, isn't affected by the level of the corpse at all?

For example: animating a shadow from a level 20 corpse, will give (basically) the same strength shadow as animating from a level 25 corpse? Once the mob is big enough to be used in animating a shadow, then the size of the shadow is only dependent on the caster's skill?


Yep.
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Postby Nekelet » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:13 pm

Correct. At least I haven't noticed any definite/consistent variance based on the level of the mob.

There is quite a bit of random variance in stats, but it seems to me to be purely random.

On a side note, high hp in a necro pet is not necessarily a good thing. I have consistenly seen that lower HP ghasts and specs survive better in melee fights than huge ones.
I can only assume that there is some balancing on their random stats, and when they are lacking in CON, they make up for it in DEX (hitroll = more vamping!) and AGI (dodge baby!).


Edit ---
oh, and re bumping the thread: "help undead points" in-game contains the same info.
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Postby Nekelet » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:05 pm

Bumping a handy thread.
--Hey, Look, I just regenerated a finger. Guess which one.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantIT ... ipt?SK=191
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:05 am

bump bump, do the bumpty bump
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Postby Botef » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm

Thought this could be handy to have at hand for folks as well.

Code: Select all

Usage:
    followers                                       - Lists all PC and NPC followers
    followers listpets                              - List only NPC Pet followers
    followers name <pet> <name>                     - Add a name to the specfied pet
    followers stop <name> | all | players | pets    - Stop <name> from following (or all)
    followers pause <name> | all | players | pets   - Temporarily stop the target(s) from following
    followers unpause <name> | all | players | pets - Start the target(s) following you again
    followers help                                  - Displays this list
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
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