Rescue issue

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kosaj
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Rescue issue

Postby kosaj » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:27 pm

Dire/Ranger has mounted combat,parry,riposte,dodge,defense skills now as like as anti/pally does.

But Those skills are useless If they cant rescue in the time.

Dire/Ranger must have 90+ cap rescue now.
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:50 pm

What about rangers? Their cap is ridiculously low as well...seems to me this is a case of trying to have the best of both worlds.

Are dire intended to be the evil version of paladins or rangers?
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Postby kosaj » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:02 pm

Dire/Ranger both Rescue cap is 50. 50 cap was designed when Ranger hadnt decent Tank skills.

and Dire is Much closer to ranger than paladin
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:18 pm

My point then is this. Should dire get the benefit of mount, the benefit of warrior type rescue, the benefit of utility spells, and the benefit of archery? Sorry, but can't see the balance in that...
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:37 pm

I can't see how another semi-ok backup rescuer in a tight spot would suddenly throw balance out of whack. Not like there's much balance in the melee world anyway.
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:18 pm

Just thinking 50 is a semi-good rescuer as is (ie. in a pinch maybe will rescue) but making it 90ish pretty muc makes it !fail, which to me would be unbalanced.

P.S. melee is unbalanced period, fixing it could fix alot of problems...
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kosaj
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Postby kosaj » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:33 pm

Vahok wrote:Just thinking 50 is a semi-good rescuer as is (ie. in a pinch maybe will rescue) but making it 90ish pretty muc makes it !fail, which to me would be unbalanced.

P.S. melee is unbalanced period, fixing it could fix alot of problems...


90ish Rescue unbalance? this is answer.
Dire/Ranger hybrid. like a shaman. they got ability of warriors but below of there. also you cant bash while mount. they cant tank without mount. they cant shoot while tank. thats hybrid. with 99 rescue Dire/Ranger can be replaced to Warrior? Hell no. Warriors much better for that.
at Tank abilty Dire/ranger has 80% skills of warriors on mounted.
also mounted combat has some handicap itself.

you think !fail rescue is overpower? Hell no.rescue improve soloablity? just much more chance to save casters.
What 99 rescue and 50 rescue means? 99 rescue 1 fail of 100 attempt. 50 is 1 of 2.

Ok. Pally/Anti's has 90+ rescue too. if dire/ranger has archery. Anti/pally has instant heal and auras and able to charge while mount
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Postby kosaj » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:58 am

and oh ya. if warrior want damage. 2H with haste and headbutt > archery

also Pets rescue better than dire/ranger
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Postby Vahok » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:04 am

Bottom line, dires are hitters, NOT tanks. It is a shame your skills are handicapped while mounted, but some are increased mounted I'd be willing to wager. In a fight, a dire must choose between dual wielding, archery or tanking with limited skills (mounted or not). A warrior's only two major functions are bashing and rescuing. Should a dire get all the benefits of a warrior, and none of the disadvantages? Not 100% on this one, but also I'd imagine an orc raider and orc warrior have similar hitpoints. So, I guess orc warrior should just be removed from the character roller, since it would be useless to have one instead of pumped up dire.

If you upgrade or add traditional warrior skills to other classes (rangers, paladins, dires, antis) the only thing that is accomplished is hurting the warrior class. Warriors suck as is (yes, rescue does not effect soloing, warriors are proof) and giving everybody and their mother their skills makes it worse. Examples...why take a warrior to brass when you can take a mounted paladin (plus Avenger, don't get me started on that..) with basically the same skills? Oh no, the paladin only has 95 rescue, can't take him! Why take an extra troll warrior to ET when you can take another dire who can rescue just as well, deals better damage, can lure and has some spells?

Upgrading a melee class with warrior skills = killing a warrior niche.
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Postby Vahok » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:08 am

kosaj wrote:and oh ya. if warrior want damage. 2H with haste and headbutt > archery

also Pets rescue better than dire/ranger


Oh yeah, if a warrior wants to really cripple his skills (no shieldblock, lessened bash ability), he sure can up his damage. And archery isn't just for damage, it's luring as well (helping take away a rogue's niche)
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:08 am

Was gonna do a similar reply, but I'm just gonna agree with Vahok for simplicity.
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Postby kosaj » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:34 am

Vahok wrote:Bottom line, dires are hitters, NOT tanks. It is a shame your skills are handicapped while mounted, but some are increased mounted I'd be willing to wager. In a fight, a dire must choose between dual wielding, archery or tanking with limited skills (mounted or not). A warrior's only two major functions are bashing and rescuing. Should a dire get all the benefits of a warrior, and none of the disadvantages? Not 100% on this one, but also I'd imagine an orc raider and orc warrior have similar hitpoints. So, I guess orc warrior should just be removed from the character roller, since it would be useless to have one instead of pumped up dire.

If you upgrade or add traditional warrior skills to other classes (rangers, paladins, dires, antis) the only thing that is accomplished is hurting the warrior class. Warriors suck as is (yes, rescue does not effect soloing, warriors are proof) and giving everybody and their mother their skills makes it worse. Examples...why take a warrior to brass when you can take a mounted paladin (plus Avenger, don't get me started on that..) with basically the same skills? Oh no, the paladin only has 95 rescue, can't take him! Why take an extra troll warrior to ET when you can take another dire who can rescue just as well, deals better damage, can lure and has some spells?

Upgrading a melee class with warrior skills = killing a warrior niche.


Who can say Dire/Ranger is hitter anymore? rogue pally/anti does more than Dire/Ranger. If D/R is a hitter why god gave tank skills as same as paladin/Anti has? Yes. D/R has Same tanking ablity with P/A but Much worse rescue ability than A/P. What Tanking ability stands for?

Rescue is Warriors proof and pride? Warriors pride comes from saving Casters. NOT for From Rescue. If there are 3 warriors 1 ranger and 4 mobs switched sametime. ranger has to just watch? If you Bring someone for damage/lure/bash. you must take a Rogue.
If D/R or pets rescue casters. You gonna blame them? or You gonna blame all pets(spirits.elementals.undeads) since pets has 90+ rescue already? that pets rescue hurt warriors?

If D/R has 90+ rescue, that hurts warriors? Why you think so? Most of zone contains Lotcha npc casters. Think if there are 4 rangers tank and no warriors. who gonna bash npc casters? bash w/o mount? Tanking without mounted same as rogue tanking.

Thats why Ranger is hard to get in zone group. since most of ppl think as you.

So what will happens if D/R has 90+ rescue? 3 warriors 1 dire/1 rogue is good form too as like as 4 warriors and 1 rogue(rogue also useful for holding zone in case spank and scout picklock)
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Postby kosaj » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:45 am

Vahok wrote:
kosaj wrote:and oh ya. if warrior want damage. 2H with haste and headbutt > archery

also Pets rescue better than dire/ranger


Oh yeah, if a warrior wants to really cripple his skills (no shieldblock, lessened bash ability), he sure can up his damage. And archery isn't just for damage, it's luring as well (helping take away a rogue's niche)


Rofl. who take away who's niche? If rogue take away a D/R's niche. since archery is design for that.. IF LURE ALSO ROGUE JOB. WHATS DIRE JOB FOR GROUP? NO TANK NO RESCUE NO LURE NO DAMAGE?
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Postby Vahok » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:26 am

Alright...let's try this again...

Rescue is Warriors proof and pride? Warriors pride comes from saving Casters -- You answered your own question, what skill do you think saves casters?
If there are 3 warriors 1 ranger and 4 mobs switched sametime. ranger has to just watch? -- No, the ranger should be attempting to rescue, still doing damage, and if he fails, life goes on.

If D/R or pets rescue casters. You gonna blame them? or You gonna blame all pets(spirits.elementals.undeads) since pets has 90+ rescue already? that pets rescue hurt warriors? --- Yes, pet rescue hurts warriors. Takes our only real job away. Do I mind when it happens? No. Would I think warriors be better off without such good pet rescue? Yes. Also goes back to why casters can solo, and warriors can't do jackshit....
Most of zone contains Lotcha npc casters. Think if there are 4 rangers tank and no warriors. who gonna bash npc casters? bash w/o mount? --- last time I checked, rangers can still bash. If mobs aren't bashable, then the warrior is on rescue duty I suppose. Plus with the many spells, skills (trip, garotte), bash is barely even a "needed" warrior skill. So hell, give the whole mud bash...

Thats why Ranger is hard to get in zone group. since most of ppl think as you. --- no, good skilled rangers still get groups. And until melee is balanced, rangers will still have a problem getting groups. Remember, rangers are hitters as well, not tanks. Why take a ranger when invoker does the job better?

Rofl. who take away who's niche? If rogue take away a D/R's niche. since archery is design for that.. IF LURE ALSO ROGUE JOB. WHATS DIRE JOB FOR GROUP? NO TANK NO RESCUE NO LURE NO DAMAGE? -- I think I've told ya what a dire's job should be, but in case you missed it, lemme point it again. Damage (yes, melee sucks...), backup tanking in a pinch (MT dies), archery for luring and damage, handy utility spells (or you don't like bark?), and casting disruption (bash).
If D/R is a hitter why god gave tank skills as same as paladin/Anti has? -- saving the best for last! You have the skills because you are a melee class. And judging by your posts, would you prefer having no tanking ability at all? Just because a warrior has dual wield doesn't mean he can do shit with it. But it is nice to have, just like your tanking skills are.

*resumes beating my skull to the wall.....*
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Postby kosaj » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:37 am

Ok. This is Answer

Rescue is Warriors proof and pride? Warriors pride comes from saving Casters -- You answered your own question, what skill do you think saves casters?

Saving casters with everything whatever possible.(pet or D/R/A/P) NOT only Warrior's Rescue. Is it ok letting Casters die for warrior pride?



If there are 3 warriors 1 ranger and 4 mobs switched sametime. ranger has to just watch? -- No, the ranger should be attempting to rescue, still doing damage, and if he fails, life goes on.

Attempt rescue with 90+ is Much helpful for with 50. Thats what group members Whats. Why Only warrior have to rescue casters? D/R rescue hurting Warrior?? Casters your Group. They wont die for your pride.



If D/R or pets rescue casters. You gonna blame them? or You gonna blame all pets(spirits.elementals.undeads) since pets has 90+ rescue already? that pets rescue hurt warriors? --- Yes, pet rescue hurts warriors. Takes our only real job away. Do I mind when it happens? No. Would I think warriors be better off without such good pet rescue? Yes. Also goes back to why casters can solo, and warriors can't do jackshit....

I've asked lotcha warriors about that. ALL i've asked warriors answer was NOt really hurt. If you feel bad From that. there is something wrong to ya.


Most of zone contains Lotcha npc casters. Think if there are 4 rangers tank and no warriors. who gonna bash npc casters? bash w/o mount? --- last time I checked, rangers can still bash. If mobs aren't bashable, then the warrior is on rescue duty I suppose. Plus with the many spells, skills (trip, garotte), bash is barely even a "needed" warrior skill. So hell, give the whole mud bash...

Bashing + Tanking for D/R is so Lame. D/R tanker go down real quick. YOu cant image? as i said D/R tanking w/o Mount same as Rogue tanking. 4 rangers tanking+bashing without warriors cant be exist. there is no classes can replace warrior for Tanking+bashing except P/A. but Still prefer to get warrior. Since warriors better tankers than P/A



Thats why Ranger is hard to get in zone group. since most of ppl think as you. ---

no, good skilled rangers still get groups. And until melee is balanced, rangers will still have a problem getting groups. Remember, rangers are hitters as well, not tanks. Why take a ranger when invoker does the job better?

Only good skilled rangers can get group? What about newbies? you gonna suggest to go roll another classes? rangers must be Stucked at 1w untill melee is balanced? If D/R goes real hitter. dont need mounted combat.dodge.parry and defend, like Old monk did. Those skills wasnt up before. just God rasied and added.


Rofl. who take away who's niche? If rogue take away a D/R's niche. since archery is design for that.. IF LURE ALSO ROGUE JOB. WHATS DIRE JOB FOR GROUP? NO TANK NO RESCUE NO LURE NO DAMAGE? --
I think I've told ya what a dire's job should be, but in case you missed it, lemme point it again. Damage (yes, melee sucks...), backup tanking in a pinch (MT dies), archery for luring and damage, handy utility spells (or you don't like bark?), and casting disruption (bash).

have you tested archery damage? Yes i did. hasted rogue melee damage with poison,assassinate,circle,extra free hits(with ruby dagger) >>> archery. Also dont forget Missile shield(3rd circle and 1 npc mage can caster their whole group and duration very long), rogue can lure,warrior best tanker+basher, rogue can trip, garrot, backup tanking in pinch? What the hell D/R failed to rescue in time in pinch? 50 rescue means you can fail to rescue for like 10 rounds. and about D/R bash. with 200 lbs shield D/R fails to bash sometime. but i dont care. coz thats rare happens.


All of those job for warrior/rogue i dont see anyroom for D/R with that reason? Thats why Ranger stucked at 1w? aint that true?



If D/R is a hitter why god gave tank skills as same as paladin/Anti has? -- saving the best for last!

You have the skills because you are a melee class. And judging by your posts, would you prefer having no tanking ability at all?
Just because a warrior has dual wield doesn't mean he can do shit with it. But it is nice to have, just like your tanking skills are.

ranger wasnt melee before? and rogue aint melee now? God gave those skills because they want to be D/R as backup tank. There is no reason If they want D/R stands as hitters. D/R dual wield does same hits as warrior does w/o haste. only 1 more hits with haste. rogue 7 more hits than warriors with 2 ruby daggers. suppose Giving tank ability to hitter aint strange? If not Why monk hadnt that?



For one point D/R cant be main tank. they cant mount if they got embodiment. Warriors better tank skills. more hps. for all reason warriors Main. this is Tactics. When 5 mobs switches in one round or warriors has bash lag or some kind lag at the moment. with 3 warriors 1 D/R 1 rogue.

backup tanks rescue casters. Warriors rescue casters first as soon as possible, then after All casters are ok. Warriors must rescue backup tankers. backup tanks Cant tank that last long, and he/she going to down. You Still think that hurt warriors? Im not sure whats good side's tactics. but Evils do that. and all agree and hope D/R gets better rescue skill. Why backup tankers/pet rescue hurt warriors? You can and have to rescue those backup tankers. thats Real pride.

3 warriors 1 D/R 1 rogue.

1 round 5 mobs on 4 casters. 2 of 5 mobs on 1 healer.

if warriors only rescue.

2 round 3 mobs on warriors, one or 2 casters down.(suppose caster cant tank long).

if D/R and pet assist rescue.

2 round 3 mobs on warriors, 1 on D/R 1 on pet. (no one down)

3 round 5 mobs on warriors(warriors rescued D/R and pet)


Mobs can switch to casters in 2~3 rounds also. So warrior must choose to rescue who first.

This is Team work. only Warrior rescue is so lame. you shouldnt feel bad of team working


Im pretty sure. God just gave Tank ability but forgot to change about rescue.
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Postby Pheten » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:36 pm

Wow that entire last post just made totally no sense to me, I had flashbacks from the dialogue of all your base are belong to us.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:12 pm

Agree pheten. That makes absolutely no sense. Its called grammar, it helps.

Anyway, what you seem to be saying is that rangers and dires should be able to rescue as well as warriors. Fine. Then warriors get archery, vig spells, bark, and max dual wield. We also get mounted combat with a high max, outdoor sneak, and track. Then we can all just be the same class.

Rescue is for warriors. Paladins and antis get it because they are warriors with some cleric ability, and they sacrifice some of their warrior skills for it.

Rangers are like warrior/rogue/druids, they get a little bit of each and lose the best parts of all of them for the utility the combination brings. You dont get 99 rescue and moonwell and assassinate, thats not how it works. I could see raising ranger rescue cap to like 70, but not any higher than that.
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Postby Harras » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:14 pm

I just started playing here but after I heard how poorly rangers can help in groups, I just went with warrior. Are the raider class skills like that too?
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Postby Cruk » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:34 pm

Welcome to the mud Harras :lol:
Sorry I got off topic, but play something you enjoy. And yes rangers suck at getting groups.
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Postby Gura » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:04 pm

kosaj ill give u a hint...just drop it. dires are perfectly fine even though there mounted combat skill gets too high.
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Postby Iyachtu » Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:58 am

See, this is the type of thing that always happens to me. Someone will post about how they think their class is lacking in some way, and along the way in the conversation I stumble across something that got broken.

Dire Raiders are NOT supposed to tank as well as they do right now. When the defensive skill revision was done, one check in the code didn't get moved into the new version. Dires are not supposed to be anywhere near as good at mount block as they currently are. They're supposed to receive the full offensive benefits of mounted combat, but not the full defensive benefits.
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Postby Waelos » Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:13 am

I think what Kosaj is trying to say is that why give tanking abilities to a class that can't rescue well enough to put them into play during a zone group.

I can see the logic. Lets not be so mean to folks who's native language is not English. . .I know it can be frustrating trying to understand what they're saying, but hey, they're playing here too =)

Anyway. . .My advice is. . .don't rescue. Casters rarely treat rangers as tanks anyway and recuing is just asking to die most times. Unless you're pretty sure your sacrifice is gonna save the day, pretend ya dont have rescue. . .or, make some secret arrangements with your friendly neighborhood enchanter/elementalist/shaman to get a stone on the side ;)

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Postby Ssryth » Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:08 am

Hmmmm I think dires were fine the way they are - they are not meant to be primary rescuers nor primary tanks.
Like one of the responses stated.. in a pinch they can rescue someone when there are more switches in a round than warriors, but they only need to tank long enough to be in turn rescued by one of the primary tanks.
Dires were meant to be jack of all trades.. and in their current form they are.. being able to sneak in some but not all cases, successfully rescueing in some but not all cases ;) ... makes life interesting.. and most of all fun to play! :D

Ssryth.

ps. oh.. bring back strafe archery ! :D

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