Balance Melee?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:49 pm

OK while i was in the shower, and singing Walking on sunshine this morning. oh sorry, you guys probbaly don't want to hear that. I had an Idea about maybe fixing melee.

Well I see it as most warriors wish to tank better w/o spells and do more damage.

So I see a skill like this might help, and give the warrior witch they choice of witch they want to do.
Specailize Offense - All offensive skills like 1h slashing, kick, bash, shield punch, and all that stuff. Do more damage and are easier to hit, eventaully when this skill gets capped out. Say things like shield punch, bash, will stun mobs with a good frequency, making skills more useful. This would be good for Ogre, human, and other warriors that don't have the good agility to tank real well, who could now get real groups cause they deal a good amount of damage, and they stun succesfully and all that crap. Over time this could add a few hit and dam points also.

Specilize Defense - Defensive skills like, dodge, rescue, shieldblock, Parry, and all that crap, would gain a whole lot of ground, make this skills capp out higher up, and also make it where they can tank, a mob with level x when they are level x, w/o spells, really uber leet eq. And over time this skill could possibly lower ones ac by maybe 15 or 20 points.

Now For Pallies, and Antis they coudl gain the skilsl
Specailize Moutned Offensive
Specailize Mounted Deffensive, you know how they would work but more towards mounted skills

Invokers
Specialize Invokation Area - Area spells do more damage, and your single target spells get downgraded
Specialize Invokation Single - Area Spells take the dive, and Single target spells do awhole lot more damage.

With these skills there would still be a use for the Enchanter, for those warriors who want to do specialize offense, and maybe give the enchanter a spell that lets a warrior do more damage, for those who want to choose specialize deffense. THats my ideas, just trying to help.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'
You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'
Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'
You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'

Senosa gets a bright green pillow.
Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:51 pm

Orku, can you make a recording and post a link?
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:55 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Orku, can you make a recording and post a link?


God no, please for the love of all that is holy no.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby Mishre » Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:04 pm

I think that sounds like a reasonable Idea.. might work out well.. although im pretty sure every warrior will want to specialize defense.. but maybe some who want to rp a different type of warrior will choose the offense..
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Postby old depok » Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:22 pm

Missile shield needs to be an 8th circle or better spell, and the duration needs to be about the same as stoneskin. They have archery, let them use it.

I can tell you from the PC perspective this spell doesn't last long at all. No idea why it is infinite on mobs.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:47 pm

Or an even better idea would be to make +hit/dam arrows more available in zones instead of just expensive quests. I'm sure people would be fine with a quiver of 50 3/3 arrows as part of an invasion or something. *shrug*

Also, I posted some ideas at the beginning of this thread, but I guess no one cared to read them. :P
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:21 pm

Ok are some reason why warriors would want to choose specailize offense.

Ok Ogre warriors aren't used for tanking to much, if they did specialize Defense, while a troll warrior did the same thing. We still are going to pick the troll warrior to tank, cause of their agility
Same thing with Human vs. Dwarf/Barb.

Now With Human vs. Dwarf/Barb, If the human Specialized in Offense and while Dwarf/barb specialized in defense, the dwarf/barb would be the ideal goodie tank, and probbaly could still do good amount of damage, that warriors do do now. While the Human if they specialized in Offense he might be able to do some decent damage, maybe more than the tank specialized in Defense, and while say he still has good defensive skills but no where compared to the dawrf/barb(cause of specialization) could possibly save someone and last a few rounds. And Warriors are supposed to be uber tanks compared to rangers/dires.

Also give the warrior a chance not to specialize in anything. If he wants to walk the middle path.

Same with the voker specialization.

So this wouldn't totaly get rid of the Enchanters your roles would just depend on witch/what warrior specialized in. Maybe give Enchanters Specialize Enchantment Offense/Defense.

Defensive skills would include stone/dscales/blur and spells liek that making the more powerful and last longer.
Offensive spells would be like Feeb/PWB/Haste make these do better also

Also I think spell power should be downed just a little bit, melee skills upgraded just a tad like dodge, shieldblock and such.

We dno't need more classes, we just need more dievrisification in the classes we have, so you coudl have two enchanters in the group and both of them have to seperate abilities, same with warriors, and invokers.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



Senosa gets a bright green pillow.

Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:22 pm

Orku wrote:OK while i was in the shower, and singing Walking on sunshine this morning. oh sorry, you guys probbaly don't want to hear that. I had an Idea about maybe fixing melee.


I like the idea of specialization, but the implementation must ensure that one of the choices isn't a weak choice. So an offense specialist has to be capable of doing enough damage or have special abilities that make one a compelling choice over a defensive specialist, and vice-versa.
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Postby Mishre » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:27 pm

< 1033h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
A fire giant warrior barely slashes you.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
A fire giant elite barely slashes you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite's attack glances off your shield, but finds it's mark!
A fire giant elite barely slashes you.
A fire giant elite barely slashes you.
A fire giant elite barely slashes you.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant elite!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Grehjan barely slashes you.
You parry Grehjan's lunge at you.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from Grehjan!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Grehjan blocks your futile attempt with his shield!
Grehjan dodges your futile attack.

< 649h/1034H 127v/127V >

The fire giant rips you twenty feet off the ground with one massive hand and shakes you about before slamming you back down to the earth.

< 650h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior barely slashes you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
Your dragon scales melt back into your regular flesh.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant elite!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You gasp in pain from Grehjan's awesome slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Grehjan rises to his feet.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
< 187h/1034H 127v/127V >

Your body warms as Nekler's god heals some of your wounds.

< 278h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You partially deflect a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You block a fire giant warrior's attack with your shield!
A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
Your vision spins into darkness as your head falls towards the ground.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...


I dunno.. i just edited it so the only things showing were things that i did or the mobs did to me.. keep in mind i was fully spelled... and dscales was the only thing that dropped before i died... so.. what do you think.. did everything happen as it should have? or should my skills have been able to save me for that 1 more round so they cuold have full healed me/threw another scale on me? or perhaps i just sux ;)

oh, and this is what my defenseive skills look like:
rescue (master) (93)
dodge (above average) (60)
riposte (very good) (91)
defense (very good) (85)
shieldblock (master) (94)
parry (master) (94)
Last edited by Mishre on Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:29 pm

Elseenas wrote:
Orku wrote:OK while i was in the shower, and singing Walking on sunshine this morning. oh sorry, you guys probbaly don't want to hear that. I had an Idea about maybe fixing melee.


I like the idea of specialization, but the implementation must ensure that one of the choices isn't a weak choice. So an offense specialist has to be capable of doing enough damage or have special abilities that make one a compelling choice over a defensive specialist, and vice-versa.


Ok if a warrior specialized in offense he would be the ideal bashing/shieldpunching/kicking/headbutting monster machien. WIth Bash Shield Punch, and Headbutt, become more and more useful when the skill goes up and they start landing more and more stuns. Kick would deal alot more damage too. Also they woudl deal alot more damage with 1hand, and even more with 2hand. So if you have a Defenisve specialized Warrior and A Offensive Specialized Warrior in same zone group with Unbashable Casters, the defenisve war could take all the htis and what not, but the Offenisve warrior could stop the unbashable caster from casting by using kick, headbutt, and shieldpunch. But they would all do the same amoutn of damage and what not. Say Headbutt has the most succesfull Stun % and does decent Damage but doesn't land as often. While Shield Punch has a nice successful stun % but doesn't do that much damage, and while kick has a low stun % but does alot of damage.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



Senosa gets a bright green pillow.

Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:31 pm

Ashiwi do you want a video or just audio?
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



Senosa gets a bright green pillow.

Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:39 pm

Ive got a 50th troll with max skills, and a 50th drow enchanter.

As a tank, I can solo a 55th level warrior. Just as long as it cant track me, and I have to use snazzy proc weapons that give me mage like abilities. Read : BLIND. Potions also help. With armor spell, a vit potion, a few stone skin potions (they exists guys, explore more) and lucky blinds I can solo the duergar warmaster in one run. And this is a long run. Usually takes two or three cuz of hard crits. And before my hit/dam/ac got totally nerfed.

As an enchanter, I can kill innummerably more mobs than grorrak could ever hope of doing. I can certaintly kill the duergar warmaster faster than gro, even with memouts. (tho never in one run). But I always figured that a master of the arcane arts might just be a little more powerful than a slathering troll warrior, no matter how big he is, so long as Im patient and I use my brains well. And it took longer to lvl to 50. And I CANT get hit. If i live, I just wont heal.

Tanking skills, tho, arent so black and white. Spelled Daggaz tanks some mobs better than unspelled Grorrak, like !tracking ship mobs which I was soloing from 36th onwards. But high lvl mobs seem to crit me way more often than I notice on gro (not just a YIKES hit, but a hit that makes it clean thru scales -a crit). I always assumed that drow just had some kind of coded vulnerability to hard physical attack, compared to trolls, due to size diff. Hope so, it would make sense.

All in all, warriors need to do more damage, takes WAY too long to solo anything. They should also be able to gain/keep some spell like abilities thru hard to find/get/quest items with procs/mods. MD longsword is a good example, wish the invis cloak worked. Dodge notch definitely needs to be raised. But I dont think they should ever do as much damage as vokers, or have uber spell abilities like enchanters etc. Warrior skills definitely need to play more into it too, tho. Elven/drow warriors outta avoid blows far better than they do now, and WAY better than a troll or barbarian, and this should have more effect in big fights than gross hps. Trolls should hit harder, have more hps, but need to be healed more often. Drow should need far less healing, but need it fast when they do. As it is now, drow war is a joke compared to troll war in a zone group; its all about being the best meatshield, hps and saves.

And I dont think its so strange that a blurred/scaled -100 ac 100 agi drow enchanter can avoid the attacks of a blinded/rayed/stumbled/fumbled mob better than a great big unspelled troll warrior. A warrior *is* just a physical fighter after all (and i doubt trolls or barbarians ever become the samuri some people imagine them to be). Besides, it's hard to get your enchanter to that level, and its very risky while trying to get the mobs under your power, and its still risky cuz -100 ac meant very few hps, even before eq changes, so I often get my head lopped off despite my troubles.

Btw feeblemind is a long, long, long cry from bash. You dont know this, because you only see it in a big group with 14 other people backing you up with heals and killing the mob too fast for it to cast again, which it can.

One last thing, everything I said is a one-on-one fight. Daggaz dies so fast its not funny if I fight just two highlvl mobs. Two, three rounds, tops, and all the spells drop at once. And I die instantly. Gro definitely tanks multi mobs WAY better than that.
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:58 pm

Orku wrote:Ok if a warrior specialized in offense he would be the ideal bashing/shieldpunching/kicking/headbutting monster machien. WIth Bash Shield Punch, and Headbutt, become more and more useful when the skill goes up and they start landing more and more stuns.


So the questions then become:

* Are these going to be useful in most zones?
* Will these be valuable enough to offset the loss of defensive ability?
* Is there some optimum ratio between them and the defensive specialists?
* How much worse off should they be in comparison?


So if you have a Defenisve specialized Warrior and A Offensive Specialized Warrior in same zone group with Unbashable Casters, the defenisve war could take all the htis and what not, but the Offenisve warrior could stop the unbashable caster from casting by using kick, headbutt, and shieldpunch. But they would all do the same amoutn of damage and what not. Say Headbutt has the most succesfull Stun % and does decent Damage but doesn't land as often. While Shield Punch has a nice successful stun % but doesn't do that much damage, and while kick has a low stun % but does alot of damage.


That's a balanced way of approaching it, though I think you will find that unless Kick does a lot of damage--enough to make it compelling--people are just going to focus on Shield Punch exclusively since it has a good chance of stunning and a better chance of landing. Kick will very rarely get used unless it does a lot of damage, and then only in certain situations.

Headbutt is a bit harder to balance in there. People are going to use these skills predominantly based on the stun% (hence why kick will be eschewed), so just take the odds of landing and multiple them by the stun%. If it turns out to be higher than Shield Punch, people will use it exclusive. If it turns out to be lower than Shield Punch, then Shield Punch is going to get the main body of use.

If you want people to use headbutt when it has a low chance of landing (even with a nice stun% and damage) it either has to do enough damage to make it worth people's while to use (and with a low chance of landing it makes the damage needed that much higher) or it has to have a chance of causing something more dramatic than simply stun.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:09 pm

grorrakk wrote:As it is now, drow war is a joke compared to troll war in a zone group


I think you are somewhat shortchanging elf-type warriors there.
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Postby Lenefir » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:05 pm

Mishre wrote:< 650h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior barely slashes you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
Your dragon scales melt back into your regular flesh.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant elite!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You gasp in pain from Grehjan's awesome slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Grehjan rises to his feet.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
< 187h/1034H 127v/127V >

Your body warms as Nekler's god heals some of your wounds.

< 278h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You partially deflect a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You block a fire giant warrior's attack with your shield!
A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
Your vision spins into darkness as your head falls towards the ground.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...

You want to compare fast deaths?

< 547h/572H 123v/123V >
< P: std >
A fire giant warrior lumbers in from the east.

< 546h/572H 123v/123V >
< P: std >
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!

< 439h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: small wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
Time speeds up suddenly!

< 439h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: small wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
You snap into visibility.
You miss a fire giant warrior with your hit.
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
A fire giant warrior slashes you very hard.
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!

< 181h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > st
A gnomish merchant clambers to his feet.
A gnomish merchant, looking very frustrated, packs up his book.
You are already standing.

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
cast 'dragonscales' me
Adana ASSOC:: 'trying to figure out what this group is up to'

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > You start chanting...

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
A gnomish merchant starts casting a spell.

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: dragonscales *

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
Your upper body is disconnected from your legs as a fire giant warrior slashes you.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The world spins faster, and is that 'The Anvil Chorus?'
You abort your spell before its done!

*** Welcome to Toril ***


*shrug*
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"
--Futurama
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:11 pm

uhm, why didnt you flee?:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:53 pm

Video with surround sound!
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:18 pm

Honestly i Haven't though threw of how these specialize skills woudl really work, its been an ongiong process.

But I do see specialize offense.
The Offensive skills, and and doing more damage i see makes up for the lack of defensive skills.

Specializing in one or the other doesn't mean you lose the oppisite skills you have now, the ones you specialize in are just awhole lot better.

So a Specialized Offensive warrior would not benifit from spells like haste as much, but more from dscales/blur that kinda thing, while a defensive tank wouldn't benifit to much from dscales/blur(even though they would still help alot) but would benifit more from haste.
But the Defensive Warrior with dscales/blur/displace and all that stuff is definately going to be a much better than an offensive warrior with those same spells, but the offesnive warrior with haste, will deal alot more damage than the defesive warrior with haste.

So your not loosing anything, your just upgrading one part, its the warriors choice to either upgrade his defense or his offense, each brings its own perks.

AS for zoningable a warrior now is being able to go zoning, so why would a warrior with the same skills, only better offense not be, he wouldn't be my first choice of tank, but he coudl still tank. He could be backup tank, or primary basher/sp/hb/kick whatever. So i still think he would be zonable.

Ratio I'm not exatcly sure, it would be something figured out till later, i haven't thaught that far, i'm just trying to bring another solution to the table.

I think the upgraded offesnive would deffinately make up for it. So they wouldn't be worse off.


I'm not sure how bash/shieldpunch/headbutt/kick would work. Yet but there are several people out there that could probbaly figure it.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



Senosa gets a bright green pillow.

Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:37 am

Sesexe wrote:Othelil, could you please try summarizing?


Probably should, so I'll snip most of the quotes and get to it.

Apparently I came off as far more anti-warrior than I wanted to. I'm not anti-warrior or anti-warrior upgrades. My point in the long winded post was only that we need to maintain the balance. In my opinion, dragon scales should be better at damage absorption than a tank. I think that's natural. Thanuk disagrees.

I do, however, agree (and I said this, if not well or clearly) that tanks should be able to tank better. I also think they shouldn't be completely reliant on mages. Just about the only thing I'm disputing is that a tank's natural abilities should surpass the most powerful defensive spells in the game. Narrow the gap, fine, but don't kill it.

I agree with almost everything you said, Sesexe, so I'll just quote a couple things I want to comment on.


Sesexe wrote:His point is dragonscales makes a warrior tank 10x's better. He wants it to be only 3-5x's better. Right now a warrior isn't even in the race with dragonscales. It's a blow out.


And that's just it, I'm all for the gap being narrowed. But if you read back Thanuk comments that a warrior should be a blowout against dragonscales, and I'm against that, not against an upgrade. Because I was too lazy to quote Thanuk, I'll quote Stamm instead:

Stamm wrote:Yes, he wants defensive skills to work better than spellups. And what's wrong with that?


They should probably not work as well, and tanks should tank better, but I think spells should stay on top of tanks. My opinion.

Bring on the upgrade, just make sure you maintain a balance.


Sesexe wrote:Play a warrior on a different mud, and then play one here. You'll notice a dramatic difference in tanking abilities. If 90% of muds with warriors tank better in zoning conditions then on Toril, then 'logically' something is wrong.


The comparison isn't valid. I've played a warrior on a different mud, but the problem is on that mud silly spells like dragon scales, blur, displace, etc, didn't exist. Poof, gone. And there goes the problem. Stone skin existed, but it was a very rare and powerful spell that took only eight hits to knock down and more than a minute (at the very least) to get one of them back. It's apples and oranges. Different mud environments have different rules, we have to determine how we want ours to be. If we want to switch to far less spells and far more tanking, fine, but that's a choice. (BTW, the heroes on that MUD were clerics - number of heals in the group practically determined the power)


Sesexe wrote:Skills do fail. Skills will always fail. They have that percentage just as spells have a chance to fail by the mob making a saving throw. What is different between the two is that the mage only need succeed once because in most cases their effect is perm or significantly longer then that applied by a skill. Unlike spells, skills have heftier limitations as they cannot be applied to specific mob types. Spells as a whole have a dramatically less target limitation. And again you imply the warriors want to be better then what mage enchantments can give them, this isn't what I have gathered.


My point was actually that at some point there are no more spells, forgetting completely save percentages. Skills are always available, that's the point. 100% of the time dragonscales, no matter how many times you've "cast" it. And in regards to the last, what I have gathered is that that is indeed what Thanuk wants.


Sesexe wrote:
Thanuk wrote:A rogue should do a ton of damage. Melee cant area, so no single target spell should do more damage than a rogue can do in the casting time.


It is my pesonal belief that this should be the case. If a voker should not equal a rogue in total single target damage at the end of 10 rounds of combat. I do feel the voker should do more damage in one attack spell, compared to 1 round of damage by the rogue, but in the end, the rogue should be doing more overall damage. This is not the case. I have a rogue, and I have a voker. The voker blows the rogue out of the water in terms of total damage and speed to output it. I personally feel the rogue melee should be evolved to where his damage increases round after round, stacking up and increasing constantly.


I have almost no problem with what you said, but the idea that a rogue can do force missile damage in one round (casting time, like Thanuk said) just throws the balance completely out of whack the other way. We need to make sure that we maintain the balance, not just toss it the other way. That's been the whole point of my post all along.


Sesexe wrote:I can mem damage in every slot. I've yet to be in a circumstance where I ran out of offensive to cast. I always had some left. Running out of area damage, yes that happens. But running out of damage as a whole. No. If fights took longer, this might be an issue. As it stands now, no.


I run out of (useful) damage all the time :-D But then again, I don't have nearly the arsenal invokers do, maybe _that's_ part of the problem? Hehe.


Sesexe wrote:Sorry, I can't understand what you've said here. Can you rephrase it a little more clearly?


I hope I have =)


Sesexe wrote:Hrmm.. going by everything else you've said and your stands, you've been pretty much against any form of damage upgrade to rangers or rogues. Contradiction.


I'm not against upgrades, I'm in favor of upgrades (and potentially matching downgrades). But I think you need to be careful how far you take it, that's all. Don't obsolete invokers or anyone else in favor of trying to unobsolete melee. [period]


Sesexe wrote:A nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't address the problem of when the spells fade the warrior still bites the big one with record speed.


I know, and most of my ideas were focused on this. My idea was not about upgrading tanks, it was just a thought on how we could alter current spells to work better for tanks than anyone else. I think they're valid suggestions of how the spells could be changes so that they don't work for everyone quite as well.


That's all for now, folks.
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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:41 am

thanuk wrote:Othilel,


I have played a warrior here since sojourn 1. In that time, our role has gone from tanking to damage to tanking to damage to tanking to damage to tanking. So don't tell me what my role is, because you don't know it.


Otherwise, play a warrior. Go roll one. Play it up till level 50. Then go tank a hard zone. Then, when blur runs out and you die from 1 shot through your -100 ac, 99 defensive skills, and 1400 hps, explain to me that its okay, because a mage studied really hard how to figure out how to cast dragonscales, so something he can mem in 28 seconds should be more important than the skills and hps and armor that took you months to acquire.

Till then, blow it out your ass, because you have no right to even join this discussion. It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Bad enough you make a fool of yourself, but you talk down to me like im some kind of idiot while doing so? I'd just erase that post if I were you, and save a little face.


Elitism, snobbery, and an inability to articulate arguments in the face of criticism are hardly going to help anyone in promoting change (and laying poor flamebait certainly doesn't help either). We're all entitled to our opinions, and newer players give equally valid opinions as older players, simply different perspectives. If you're so caught up in your "I've been here longer than you" mentality that you can't see that, that is sad. Just as you've done things I haven't, Thanuk, I've done things you haven't. This is what we call perspective, and each person bringing something unique to the table.
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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:56 am

thanuk]
Many people seem confused about what im looking for. Somehow you got the impression that I want to without spells be able to walk into 2nd gatehouse in jot, type hitall, and have a bunch of dead giants on the ground and not a scratch on me.
[/quote]

We're understandably confused because you're not stating your case well. How about this quote?


[quote="thanuk wrote:
No Omrec, the idea that one spell, be it dragonscales or stone, could be more effective at stopping melee damage then my entire arsenal of defensive abilities is the rediculous one. Unfortunately, it's also the one in effect right now.


That right there says either spells need to suck (unbalancing in my opinion) or melee skills should be better than them (also unbalancing). You just never sounded like you enjoyed the idea of middle ground, you've always been about extreme extreme extreme.


thanuk wrote:Downing some of the damage on mage spells would help too, again not a ton, just like a 10% reduction would level the playing field quite a bit. Now you're gonna tell me that I can rescue and tank, so I shouldn't be able to do damage as well. To which i reply, there are many caster classes that can summon tanks that can rescue, as pets. They can still do damage while their pets tank, so why can't i?


I'm with you on this (believe it or not). I just want to preserve a reasonable order (not necessarily the current one) of who does more damage than who and over what durations.


thanuk wrote:Defensively is where the problems lie. Sure enchanters are all about defense. That doesn't mean warriors have to sit around useless without them so the enchanters can feel needed. The effectiveness of protection spells needs to be lowered, and the effectiveness of defensive skills need to be raised. Cutting blur is a great idea, omrec, i like it. Let warrior skills pick up the slack for that. Then give enchanters an 8th circle spell that works like a single target ancestral shield, and protects the person its casted on from spell damage instead of melee damage. Enchanters are all about protection, yet they have no spells to protect anyone from magic beyond globe, is that really right? And at 8th circle, they won't be able to cast it on the whole group, so it doesn't take away from shaman's ancestral shield.


Also agree with all of this (if enchanters are saying ditch blur, I'm hard pressed to fight it), and I certainly never said warriors should sit around useless without enchanters. But they shouldn't become an insane fighting force either. The people resisting you aren't resisting upgrades, because I think we all acknowledge those need to happen. We're just resisting sweeping changes that just flip the balance to the other side of the fence again.

thanuk wrote:You really don't have to rewrite the whole mud from scratch to fix these problems. A little here and a little there adds up to balance. The last step, however, is to get you guys to stop FLAGGING EVERY FRIGGIN MOB AS A WARRIOR. Every highlevel zone is full of cleric warriors, mage warriors, and mage cleric warriors. Its absurd. If a mob's gonna be multiclassed between a mage and a warrior, then it should be one of the harder fights in the zone, not every idiot guard in the whole place. Warriorcleric and clericmage are reasonable, but warriormage has to be a harder flag to come by, or else melee will never be useful because every single mob in the game has maxed defensive skills.


DEFINITELY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE! Please, could we have a bit of differentiation between mobs? Stop flagging them warriors - mages _should_ be more susceptible to melee than most mobs, just like warriors should be more susceptible to magic than most mobs (ok, still in my opinion). Not flagging every mob warrior would certainly help with enhancing that difference.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:15 am

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tuga » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:29 pm

Just an idea I had while driving home from work ;)

Why cant we have hit/dam be like hps??

So a human rogue would have more hit/dam than a human warrior, human warrior have more than human cleric and human cleric have more than human mage and these supposing that all have 100 str and dex

Maybe it would lift offensive Melee a few ;)

For the defensive part I already stated my opinion on this thread

Cheerz
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:05 pm

...Not worth it.
Last edited by thanuk on Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:11 pm

othelil wrote:We're understandably confused because you're not stating your case well. How about this quote?


thanuk wrote:No Omrec, the idea that one spell, be it dragonscales or stone, could be more effective at stopping melee damage then my entire arsenal of defensive abilities is the rediculous one. Unfortunately, it's also the one in effect right now.


That right there says either spells need to suck (unbalancing in my opinion) or melee skills should be better than them (also unbalancing). You just never sounded like you enjoyed the idea of middle ground, you've always been about extreme extreme extreme.


There are currently 3 highlevel defensive spells. Blur, dragonscales, and displace. You think that any one of these spells, on their own, should be more effective than the entire defensive arsenal of a level 50 warrior. I say that a level 50 warrior with maxed defensive skills should be more effective at defending himself than a mage with any one of these spells individually. A combination of two or more is a different story. But we never discussed combinations, because you refuse to consider that a warrior should be able to defend himself better than a dragonscaled mage. Your idea of middle ground is a little better than they are now, but still completely useless without spells. That's not middle ground, that's not even a change worth making. Have you ever even played a warrior passed level 25 on this mud?
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:25 pm

thanuk wrote:There are currently 3 highlevel defensive spells. Blur, dragonscales, and displace. You think that any one of these spells, on their own, should be more effective than the entire defensive arsenal of a level 50 warrior. I say that a level 50 warrior with maxed defensive skills should be more effective at defending himself than a mage with any one of these spells individually. A combination of two or more is a different story. But we never discussed combinations, because you refuse to consider that a warrior should be able to defend himself better than a dragonscaled mage. Your idea of middle ground is a little better than they are now, but still completely useless without spells. That's not middle ground, that's not even a change worth making. Have you ever even played a warrior passed level 25 on this mud?


You misunderstand me. I think that no warrior should have skills that are better than those spells are _now_. I think that would be too powerful. But if we weaken the spells or change them and buff up the skills and warriors surpass one spell on its own, that's fine. But you have to admit if a warrior's defensive skills were better than even just dragonscales... come on, gimme a break? Perm dragonscales as it is now would be godly.
Last edited by othelil on Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:31 pm

othelil wrote:You misunderstand me. I think that no warrior should have skills that are better than those spells are _now_. I think that would be too powerful. But if we weaken the spells or change them and buff up the skills and warriors surpass one spell on its own, that's fine.


Ok so basically, after 50 posts of arguing, you agree with what I said in my first post. Thanks.
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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:42 pm

thanuk wrote:Ok so basically, after 50 posts of arguing, you agree with what I said in my first post. Thanks.


My entire argument in the first post I made, though long winded, was I was against what I just said I'm against. I never once in that entire post said I'm against upgrades or downgrades, simply against either when they are too large (or too small) relative to other classes. I'm just against throwing the balance off. That is all. I think more careful consideration than has been paid by the "Hell yeah upgrade us!!!" troup needs to be paid to what happens to the flipside, but melee certainly needs attention.

Here's the basic premise. You want warriors' skills to be better than dragonscales. You agree that that can't happen as dragonscales now. Your solution is to downgrade dragonscales and upgrade warriors. But what happens to enchanters? I still believe dragonscales should be a very powerful spell, if not _quite_ as powerful, but I feel like your argument in the long run is going to be destructive to at the very least enchanters, possibly other support classes whose primary purpose is to provide these types of spells that you want to weaken.

With melee damage up and spell effects down, you don't see a problem with balance? I just see a lot of potential for the whole thing to flip on its head all over again. That is my complaint.

And for the record, I still think dragonscales should absorb damage better, that's the nature of the spell. I _definitely_ think a warrior should outtank a blurred or displaced mage, however. I also think a warrior should tank better spelled up than any other class spelled up (ie, skills should factor into spell effects, weird but nice and worthwhile - some easy ways to do this were outlined in my original post). But dragonscales are supposed to be the end-all-be-all of damage reduction and I think that for the limited duration of the spell a mage should be able to stand up to one mob fairly well.

But I also think that the second the thing wears off the mage should get slaughtered just as nicely as he does now, and a warrior shouldn't. A warrior should be able to stand his own without the spell for a reasonable duration, I _agree_ with this. Just stop trying to destroy an enchanter's role in the process of your upgrades. Kill the spell's _duration_ if you want to weaken it and with upgraded skills it will still be true that only warriors can tank, all without making dragonscales useless. Alternatively, alter it as I said before. Either way, the spell would be more of a damage sponge then, and the bulk of the reduction would come from skills.

And at any rate, please don't misquote me. Even in my original post my argument was that the idea that a warrior by himself was more powerful than anyone spelled up by the assemblage of several of the most powerful mages in the world was ludicrous. The only spell I argued (and still do), is dragonscales, and other than that my argument settled around combinations. Making dragonscales useless is not the solution, it will just mean more deaths all around because right now it helps protect support classes in large fights inbetween rescues. I die in exactly one round without a rescue, so trust me, I like dragonscales as a support spell.
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Postby Mishre » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:08 pm

Lenefir wrote:
Mishre wrote:< 650h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior barely slashes you.
A fire giant warrior misses you with his slash.
You parry a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
Your dragon scales melt back into your regular flesh.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant elite!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
You parry a fire giant elite's lunge at you.
A fire giant elite enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You dodge Grehjan's vicious attack.
You gasp in pain from Grehjan's awesome slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
Grehjan rises to his feet.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
Your attack glances off Grehjan's shield, but find it's mark!
You barely pierce Grehjan.
< 187h/1034H 127v/127V >

Your body warms as Nekler's god heals some of your wounds.

< 278h/1034H 127v/127V >
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You partially deflect a fire giant warrior's lunge at you.
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
You block a fire giant warrior's attack with your shield!
A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
Your vision spins into darkness as your head falls towards the ground.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...

You want to compare fast deaths?

< 547h/572H 123v/123V >
< P: std >
A fire giant warrior lumbers in from the east.

< 546h/572H 123v/123V >
< P: std >
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!

< 439h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: small wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
Time speeds up suddenly!

< 439h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: small wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
You snap into visibility.
You miss a fire giant warrior with your hit.
A fire giant warrior's attack only grazes you as you dodge aside!
A fire giant warrior slashes you very hard.
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You stagger from a fearsome slash from a fire giant warrior!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A fire giant warrior enshrouds you in a mist of blood with his deadly slash!
OUCH! That really did HURT!

< 181h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > st
A gnomish merchant clambers to his feet.
A gnomish merchant, looking very frustrated, packs up his book.
You are already standing.

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
cast 'dragonscales' me
Adana ASSOC:: 'trying to figure out what this group is up to'

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > You start chanting...

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
A gnomish merchant starts casting a spell.

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: dragonscales *

< 182h/572H 123v/123V >
< T: Lenefir TC: nasty wounds E: fire EC: excellent P: std > A fire giant warrior half kills you with his mighty slash!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
Your upper body is disconnected from your legs as a fire giant warrior slashes you.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The world spins faster, and is that 'The Anvil Chorus?'
You abort your spell before its done!

*** Welcome to Toril ***


*shrug*




hehe.. sorry.. the point i was trying to make is should a warrior die in 3 rounds with 1k hps and fully spelled? is that the way the designers think it should be? or are my defensive skills not good enough? death happens sure and i don't have a problem with it.. its just that i was thinknig this might have to do with this discussion because it has something to do with melee balance.. i just feel that probably the biggest help in a circumstance like that would be me having 94 dodge.. (the same as my parry/shieldblock skills).. so i might have lived the rest of the round for my cleric to finish his full heal.. bleh.. oh well..i probably just suck bad ;)
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Postby Orku » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:10 pm

Othelil maybe this will help out. What we want is to tank better w/o dscales, Right now we can't tank worth a hoot really w/o dscales, blur, or displace. And once one of these spells drop, we are pretty much toast. We just want to be able to Tank Better, we are not wanting to downgraded dscales(or maybe its just I instead of we).

So basicly what we want?
Tank better thank we tank now(!spell up). Making us last say 5 rounds more w/o dscales then 1 round w/o it.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:41 pm

btw, homeland's solution to casters "twinking" everything was to add a half round of lag to the beginning of every offensive spell while not engaged. also, stoneskin only reduced damage by 80% so this made it difficult to solo.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:07 pm

I don't play warrior much. Got a lvl 50 though.

Warriors was insane before the changes with partial shieldblock. At that time we could fight way too much, almost everything got blocked or dodged

I think however the change with partial block is good. But, mabye it would be worth turning some of those knobs that control this part of the game.

An idea could be
-less full blocks
-more partial blocks
-partial blocks better
-no partial dodges
-more full dodges
-defense skill works against crit.

The guy that complains because he dies to 6 giants+ is not an issue imho.

The change that made fighting more than 1 mob hard is a good change.

On the evil side then I would rather have specialize 1h and 2h than offense and defense. then all trolls would do 1h and ogre 2h. Thats not really a balance issue though, just +style.

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Postby othelil » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:26 pm

Orku wrote:Othelil maybe this will help out. What we want is to tank better w/o dscales, Right now we can't tank worth a hoot really w/o dscales, blur, or displace. And once one of these spells drop, we are pretty much toast. We just want to be able to Tank Better, we are not wanting to downgraded dscales(or maybe its just I instead of we).

So basicly what we want?
Tank better thank we tank now(!spell up). Making us last say 5 rounds more w/o dscales then 1 round w/o it.


I've got no issues whatsoever with what you're asking for an wholeheartedly support it! More power to the meat shields :)

Not everyone is on the same page though. What you've mentioned above, though, go for it!
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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:42 pm

*poke shev*

Since ur opinion is the only one that counts, what do YOU think?
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You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

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Postby Uzzel » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:15 am

Jegzed wrote:Re: Areandon

I was enchanter in soj2 and in soj3.. First one to level a drow enchanter to 50 in both incarnation, and first evilrace to ever get dragonscales.

I loved playing enchanter and keeping players protected when I played hardcore.

BUT

its obvious that enchanters are a MAJOR part of the balance problem.

We can live without scales, blur, stone.... Just increase effect of stumble/fumble and similar spells..



How terrible lies :P.

You was the first drow enc at 50th in both s2 and s3.

But the first to get evilrace to get dragonscale was a Yuan-ti, named Sslarris and you should know that!!
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Postby Gura » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:36 am

sslarris who?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:58 pm

Poke Shev
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:02 pm

Where's my link???
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:41 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Where's my link???


http://www.ashiwisnudewebcam.com you mean this one?

or

http://www.thanuksmomgummingcyric.com that one?
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Postby Orku » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:07 am

been to downhearted to sing in the shower.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'

You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'

Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'

You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'



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Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:34 pm

So anyway, what's going on with melee? Are there any updates or ideas the gods are kicking around? Does Shev read this post or are his fingers too brittle to type? I know how old age can really hurt your typing :)
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Postby Sarell » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:57 am

my level 42 shaman tanks better than my lvl 50 warrior with max skills, that is a problem

tanks cant tank lying down and everything bashes. it is absolutely stupid that I have to b reduced to 10 inches tall to be a good warrior. Make defense dodge bash. As wasw said initially the mobs bashing was meant to stop people form twinking everything with casters, instead they just reduce and tanks are completely nerfed.
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Just a little thought

Postby Daten » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:57 am

If you don't play a melee class, stfu, this means you izi, yer not a bad guy, but you don't know what the fuck yer talking about, seriously. I read through this entire set of posts, and 1 thing kept ringing true, yer lack of ANY REAL KNOWLEDGE about melee. Now, you'll prolly come back with a statement about you playing a melee class. That would be the stupidest thing to do, because if you said that, we'd all laugh horribly, because how on earth could you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about melee, yet play a melee class? Seriously people, if you don't have anything to contribute, shut yer yaps, don't post here saying other people are wrong. If you have yer own ideas, go for it, but don't write a longwinded, asinine post about how someone else is wrong, especially the mullet. He's a jackass, we all know it, but he does know what he's talking about quite often, he has also played here for quite awhile. I've avoided making any posts about balance etc here...mainly because most of what I'd say has already been said. Izi, I feel I speak for MANY of us melee people when I say, just stop posting about things you don't know about. Thanks, gnite.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:38 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:40 pm

Sesexe wrote:Sesexe's Computer Analogy on Melee:


You lost me at Computer.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:49 pm

Sesexe wrote:Weapon One: If warrior types get upgraded, most of the mobs in the game get upgraded. This causes a downgrade to all casters because the power level of casters relative to !casters has decreased. Translation = It's good that most the mobs are warrior mobs.

Not necessarily. One problem with warriors is that we do no damage at all. But I think we all know that warrior mobs do plenty of damage. The reason for this discrepancy is because the mobs get huge dice/damroll statted into them, making them hit like trucks. Whereas I walk around with less than 30 damroll and a 1d7 longsword most of the time. By upgrading weapon dice, you can increase the damage output of all melee characters, exponentially if you want, and the only mobs which will be affected by this change are the mobs who wield those weapons. The only potential objection people may have is that you are upgrading equipment, not characters. But my answer to that is that if you are a serious melee character, you have long since accepted the fact that your character's power is primarily based on your equipment anyway, and you're skills are only facilitated by your equipment allowing you to live long enough to actually use them.

Sesexe wrote:Weapon Two: Increases the auto-abilities only of warriors does not = an upgrade to the class because their power level relative to mob warriors will not increase but instead remain equal. Translation = Warriors need their rolls expanded, not just their auto-skills (useable by mobs just as easily) increased.

Ahh but it's still an upgrade, because our power level compared to any mob not flagged warrior will increase(even though those are few and far between these days).
Sesexe wrote:Weapon Three: To upgrade warriors and melee, the rolls and abilities of the classes must be expanded upon themselves, not simply taking away from existing classes to add to their own. Translation = Taking from another to add to yourself dos not increase the whole unit.

PC power as a whole, as compared to mob power as whole, is close to balanced. PC's have a slight edge. This makes the game easier, some people also beleive it makes it more fun, because nobody enjoys getting their ass beat over and over. If you upgrade melee and don't downgrade casters at the same time, you throw off that balance. There is no room to make mobs more powerful to compensate. Therefore, you must redistribute the PC power between the classes differently, while keeping the total at the same level. That basically means you have to downgrade mages to upgrade melee.
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Postby Zen » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:00 pm

Some suggestions for Melee I have.

1) Reduce the numerical effectiveness of defensive spells while increasing the effectiveness of defensive skills for all classes by the same amount. As long as the changes are applied evenly this should mean that the overall damage to mages defensive is not as severe as the reduction to their spells.

2) Increase Melee damage. Melee damage should be the source for single target damage. Invokers can area and will always be needed against wraith type mobs. Increasing melee damage output isn't going to make invokers go away or stop going to zones. Invokers are king, relax.

3) Re-evaluate melee skill & class combinations with an emphasis on skill/class combinations that do not require the sacrifice of a class' primary role in a group. Giving rangers trip instead of bash and reducing a warriors dependance on shieldblock would help to increase their use in combat without sacrificing their essential roles.

4) Add skills and abilities to melee classes designed to add variety. Currently we have a vast amount of spell variety, and very little melee variety. Currently, hitters and tanks both look for the same sorts of items and numbers to increase their surviability and ability to contribute. Balacing diversity will make melee classes more enjoyable as a whole. Some personal suggestions for that would be giving rangers the ability to specialize in archery or melee, rogues to specialize in thier choice of 1handed weapons, paladins/antipaladins to specialize in their choice of 2handed weapons would add some interest. I might also suggest giving Warriors, (Anti)Paladins and Rangers a toughness skill to reduce damage (With varying, appropriate skill caps) If a toughness skill was added along with specialization, warriors could be given the ability to specialize in toughness or in any weapon they wished.

5) Add more massive damage melee skills. The often mentioned pommel strike, for rangers and (Anti)Paladins would be a welcome addition that is similar in function to headbutt and circle.

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Postby Tasan » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:44 am

Gah... stop talking about rangers actually using swords already.

old depok wrote:Missile shield needs to be an 8th circle or better spell, and the duration needs to be about the same as stoneskin. They have archery, let them use it.

I can tell you from the PC perspective this spell doesn't last long at all. No idea why it is infinite on mobs.


Missile shield 8th circle... ok. Duration(isn't infinite)... wouldn't be a problem if...

Yasden wrote: Or an even better idea would be to make +hit/dam arrows more available in zones instead of just expensive quests. I'm sure people would be fine with a quiver of 50 3/3 arrows as part of an invasion or something.


The problem isn't how many are available, it's the time/effort vs. effectiveness.

Earlier this wipe I set out to be one of the best players of my class. Because of this, I found several ways to obtain better arrows. Do I still have those arrows? No. Will I continue to try and get those arrows? No.

Reason: I've lost 90% of my arrows to crashes/mobs that went unkilled, and for me, the time spent accumulating those arrows is better spent leveling an invoker, who does more damage in the first place.

Fix arrow loss. I don't care how you do it, just do it.

Tweak the archery knob upwards a tad.

If I can't arch and do as much damage as an invoker can to a single target, what's the point? Just delete the class and get it over with.

I won't comment on any other classes because I don't have the expertise.

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:12 am

Izisayyin wrote:A warrior can still do plenty more without stone/scales than my illithid, so perhaps my perspective is skewed. To me, (and perhaps not so much to others), bash, rescue, etc, make a HUGE difference. I can not survive without a warrior doing these things.


You can do all of those things (stone/bash/stun) AND heal. :\
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:20 am

Dizzin wrote:Although, frankly, I'd much rather you just removed rangers and/or invokers. I think that would get rid of about 90% of the whining.


No.
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