Your Biggest Beefs With the Current EQ Situation

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dizzin
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Your Biggest Beefs With the Current EQ Situation

Postby Dizzin » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:09 pm

Well, now that my rage at many of these extremely questionable changes has played itself out, I can at least pretend that I want to offer constructive help. And since it's apparently bad ju-ju to post this sorta thing in the objects forum, I'll just do it here!

So let's hear it from all of you. Let the staff know what our biggest problems with these changes are. Not specific items, just general trends that we've noticed that you find to be the most unpopular.

I'll start.

1. High-end quests.

Quests in general seem to have taken a hit, but the longer and more difficult ones like Conquest eq, dscale robes, muspel/oakvale epic quests took it right up the rump. And the Avernus area quest still isn't worth its pain. Silver bands also require a lot more work than sylphs, and apparently only warrant ac for it. In my opinion, the quest point system needs to be seriously revamped. Spob robes should NOT end up being superior to dscale robes.

2. Zone disparity.

Before the changes, we were complaining that the hardest zones in the games were giving rewards barely improved over the most mediocre of zones. Now the hardest zones in the game are giving *worse* rewards than the mediocre zones. BC/Avernus eq got downgraded while demi/SG gets upgraded? And then there are other zones where the eq isn't upgraded, but it isn't d/graded nearly enough, Like ET and Jot. Of course.. some items from there WERE upgraded too.. *cough*

3. Muspelheim invasion.

Heh. Nearly every item from here is now tops for its slot. And some of the items are massively more powerful than the others. Anyone remember the time it loaded 5 boots in a row? It's not that rare, and it's not that difficult. Deserves maybe 1-2 top items in the game, not 10.

4. Melee romping.

I'll be honest, I'm a mage at heart and prefer mages to melee in any situation. But even I am shocked at the fact that hit/dam/damage dice took a beating. I thought this was supposed to be the first step to balancing melee, not to pushing it out of existence.


Okies, that's most of what I've got. Hopefully the staff will take a look at this and reconsider much of it.
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Postby rylan » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:18 pm

The biggest problem I see with the changes is that while the new eq stat system may work well for individual zones, it doesn't take into account how eq ends up being compared against items from _other_ zones... so you have some items that seems out of wack because something from a widely thought to be easier zone is as good or better. For example, loki ringmail has same hps as starsilver plate, and more hps than low cut ebon dress, and both of those fights are commonly known as a lot harder than loki.... but apparently the point system allowed the items to come out like that.
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Postby Pheten » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:21 pm

I think I would not be nearly as bothered by all the changes that were made if for every shocking "omg look how they ruined that item" there was a "omg look at this item that had shitty stats and is now hella better as it should of been all along!" (cough BRONZE CITADEL cough) but honestly out of all my equipment on both of my characters I had 2 items actually get a noticeable increase in stats, one honestly was just a shift in stats.
First was elfskin boots went from ac2 15hps 2dam, to ac15 6hps 2dam, which I like more.
Second which makes no sense is cloak of render fur got bumped up to ac8 2dam 6maxcon, making it one badass neckpiece.. when it isnt that hard to get.

-phet
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Postby Wobb » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:29 pm

Note, read this entire message before you react to it.

I'm still waiting for someone to just say "april fools!".

This entire shift makes absolutely NO sense. I walk away with the feeling that this game is now run by people who do not play the game, but only admin it. Or if they do play it, they are playing with the ub3r elite, and have no understanding of the general populous. I hope this is not the case. I don't know any of you upstairs, and now I feel like that is a big mistake, I should have put more time in learning who was in control before I spent the countless hours playing this game, and what their intentions, beliefs and gaming philosophies were. This is not a flame, this is a wake up call. I appreciate all your hard work, appreciate mine. Change whatever you want, but leave equipment alone.

Specifics:

1. Equipment defines the game. Nothing else does. People base every motion, every action, and every zone attempt based on equipment. Example, I need to get the cloak of rhemoraz scales for fire prot so I can do brass to get an amethyst ring so I can have enough hitpoints to do tiamat. Every action builds upon the other.

If you take the very essence that defines the game and all its purpose and change it mid-stream, you seriously screw up the balance that did exist.

If you are concerned about people getting overpowered, fine, let them. Let them get overpowered, and bored, and move on. That is part of any game. Thanuk cited "no one dies anymore", well maybe you don't die anymore, but I do. And now I get to die a lot more. And gee, I still get to wait 20 mintues for res affects, and gee I still get to piss around doing hours of mindless exp to make up for said death.

Remember how many people quit when res quest got changed? Wonder how many this will drive away...

2. Formulae for deciding what eq got downgraded and how much.

As I understand it, the formulae were roughly:

If a rogue can sneak/hide through a zone, get folded to and then the mob gets twinked without doing any other fights -- then the eq is less worthy of good stats then another piece that cannot be twinked.

Ok, so the gods proposal is go through 10,000 pieces of equipment and start downgrading them? HELLO???? Would it not have been better to simply prevent such twinkage? Wouldn't it have been fewer changes to put things in place like you did with the JOT tree and add a few mobs to prevent it? Hell I would have agreed to more fights in a heart-beat than to make half of my eq junk.

3. Balance, the unachievable

If someone can convince me that all these changes DO balance the game, then perhaps it would be better to have made these changes when you are able to FULLY implement it. I can assume nothing other than warriors are very soon going to get some MAJOR upgrades in their tanking and damage ability. Given this assumption, why not make these changes when you are ready to make the changes to tanking?

Look, sometimes less is more as in, less change. If the complaint was "no new zones could be balanced or offer better eq", the answer isn't necessarily to downgrade everything.

Why not pwipe? Or equipment-wipe? If there was a better time to do it, now would be it. I'm one person, this is one suggestion, lets put our minds together and find something other than THIS equipment downgrade solution.

Balance: The idea was to limit groups to 15, the idea was to force people to group together more by making invokers and enchanters and nerfing warriors without spells, the idea was to never have a pwipe on sojourn, the idea was to make things better, and now the idea is this equipment change.

I fail to see where any of this has made the game better, or achieved any kind of balance.

Suggestion (as stated in my other post), start conferring with mortals. Let the discussions be open. Hear this feedback before you start doing changes.

If 90% of the warriors in the game would have told you "ARE YOU INSANE 1DAM AND 8 HPS ON WRIST RAZOR???" before you made the change, clearly that would have been time well spent. All of the eq that got upgraded, is owned by people who are already uber. I got a few upgraded items, and I would rather they were downgraded at the expense of my other items being restored to usefulness.

These are things I never thought I would have to say. Equipment is sacred. If you need to clear stuff up, fine, pwipe, add more mobs, prevent twinking....but dont make all my stuff crap.

Wobb
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:54 pm

My biggest beef with the equipment changes is... the amount of seriously twisted bitching everybody's doing about them. The staff went to the trouble to set up a forum for us so that they could get feedback, analyze the situation and make appropriate adjustments, but there are sooooo many people acting like it's some big, personal slap in the face to them and their little worlds will never be able to recover from the atrocity. Time and patience, time and patience, time and patience.

Try a little tenderness.

Love makes the world go 'round.

Rose-colored glasses paint everybody a pretty pink.

Bright as the sun, I wanna have some fun, come and gimme some of that yum-yum chocolate chip, honey-dipped, can I get a scoop? Baby, take a ride in my coupe. You make me wanna shoop.

It's neither as serious, nor as bad, as it may seem.
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Postby Todrael » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:18 pm

Anything that doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable.
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Postby Branthur » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:18 pm

Agreed Ashiwi...the entire POINT behind us having the Object Changes forum is to discuss what is good and bad about the system..to talk about what needs to be possibly changed.._not_ to just piss and moan how your piece of equipment that has 3 prots has a few less hitpoints than something else. :roll:

Of _course_ there are some problems...if there wasn't going to be expected problems, would we have that forum up right now to begin with???
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:38 pm

Ashiwi wrote:My biggest beef with the equipment changes is... the amount of seriously twisted bitching everybody's doing about them. The staff went to the trouble to set up a forum for us so that they could get feedback, analyze the situation and make appropriate adjustments, but there are sooooo many people acting like it's some big, personal slap in the face to them and their little worlds will never be able to recover from the atrocity. Time and patience, time and patience, time and patience.

Try a little tenderness.

Love makes the world go 'round.

Rose-colored glasses paint everybody a pretty pink.

Bright as the sun, I wanna have some fun, come and gimme some of that yum-yum chocolate chip, honey-dipped, can I get a scoop? Baby, take a ride in my coupe. You make me wanna shoop.

It's neither as serious, nor as bad, as it may seem.


You give Ashiwi a Love Muffin! Isn't it cool how da ladies don't reply like the guys? Yay Ashiwi! Keepin da lovin 'Doioioing' strong :)
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Postby thanuk » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:50 pm

Thilindel wrote:
You give Ashiwi a Love Muffin! Isn't it cool how da ladies don't reply like the guys? Yay Ashiwi! Keepin da lovin 'Doioioing' strong :)



Ashiwi is a guy in rl.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:57 pm

Sesexe kicks the soap box out from under Ashiwi!
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Ashiwi.

*** Welcome to Toril ***

0) Leave a complaint for a Time.
1) Enter a gripe of Toril.
2) See who is currently playing god.
3) Read the MUD bitching.
4) Change your equipment stats randomly.
5) Enter your complaint.
6) Delete this post to write another whine.

Make your choice:1

TorilMUD : the EQ Nerfer Welcomes You!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WELCOME HOME, FRIED YOUR GEAR AGAIN.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Welcome to EQlessMUD. We are on new a crack dose, and a new colorful world
is open before us..dude, and will be nerfing everything but your pfile over the
next day or two, so the areas monkies can fix any game balance problems that
have been going on for the last ten years apparently. As soon as any stats are proven
stable we will begin introducing new code that's waiting in the wings to change
them all to something completely different! Our new hostname is:
torilmud.org 9999,
should be working within a few god days. Happy CHATing, and please be patient
while we work out any issues with our dope dealer. Thanks!

Welcome to TorilMUD

Retrieving rented items from storage...

Sesexe says, 'Oopsie!'
Sesexe comforts the corpse of Ashiwi... right into the gutter with Barney the purple dinosaur.
Nelson points and says, "Ha HAH!'


Gawd that felt good to flog the widdle wabbit. Mmmmmmmm
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:12 pm

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Heh, I laughed so hard I snorted, and I'm at work!

And Thanuk, you should know damned well I'm not a guy IRL, if I were I would have posted a MUCH sexier picture of me! I wouldn't go calling you a chick IRL, even if you do like dressing like Britney Spears... and your mom tries to dress like Madonna. That's one kiss I hope they DON'T show over and over.
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:17 pm

=^)

Yeah, I figure there's no point in getting mad about it. But there is great fun to be had in making fun of the absurdity of it all.

Thanks tho Ashiwi, I needed that. And you were just TOO f'n happy. =^)

SHMOOCHES
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'

Targsk group-says 'sexedse'

mount dragon

You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.

You have learned something new about mount!
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:08 am

Ashiwi wrote:And Thanuk, you should know damned well I'm not a guy IRL


Damn 'nuk you hittin' that too? You get all the poon.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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My 0xBEEF

Postby shalath » Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:13 am

I don't have a problem with the changes, being a newbie (been here for about 6 weeks now) it doesn't really affect me all that much. However, what really gets me is this:

I've collected some EQ I like. Nothing "uber", some really nice stuff, from presents, shrewd trading and the few zones I've had the privilege to visit. Some of it gets nuked for the overall good of the game, and that's fine - I've been here 6 weeks, I can't possibly know what's needed for the overall good of the game. So I start collecting again, visit a zone or two (lvl 46 now with scale, more popular in zones!), buy some pieces of EQ to replace what got downgraded...and then things change again, and some of the new stuff I got gets nerfed :-(

So, please, could you do all this stuff in one go? Or at least post something ON THE MUD that things are going to change again? Ok, so there's this Web Based bulletin board to discuss changes, but not everyone has the time to read through everything here. The bulleting boards on the mud are used to inform people of changes to the mud, right?

Quite frankly, I'm not interested in reading through people's complaints as to why this piece of EQ is now worse than that piece of EQ. I'm a newbie. There are many others like me. You're trying to encourage newbies to join. Please post important information ("don't spend money on EQ now, things are still likey to change" is important to newbies!) where newbies can read it easily, on the boards on the mud!

Sorry for the rant, I rarely rant but this is a rant ;-)

-shalath

<extra rant>Oh and while I'm at it, whichever idiot suggested downgrading Enchanter spells - have you thought about the fact that the whole reason we chanters have them and you tanks don't, but we chanters don't have AC100, 1.5K+hitpoints, and bash, while you do, is so that we need each other? This game is about fighting in groups. Sure, some soloing is fun, but why masturbate when you can be part of an orgy? </extra rant>
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Re: My 0xBEEF

Postby Ambar » Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:40 pm

shalath wrote: Sure, some soloing is fun, but why masturbate when you can be part of an orgy? </extra rant>




buahahaha sorry hadda quote that


buahahha
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
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Postby Tuga » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:51 am

Can I get into the orgy too?

Cheerz
Tuga the Sunless Troll
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unbalanced eq changes

Postby Celor » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:14 pm

i dunno.. imo these eq changes are not balanced at all.. i was one of the people looking forward to these changes.. not cuz i was hoping to get all upgraded stuff.. but cuz i was hoping it would balance the game.. but all it did so far is make 99% of the people weaker than they were.. and the remaining 1% of the people stronger.. the 1% of the people being the people with all the highly rare and extremely hard to get eq that was upgraded.. basically the people that didnt need it.. now i'm not saying upgrade everyone elses eq so they even out everyone.. those high end people earned their eq fair and square.. but i dont believe that pretty much everyone should be nerfed..

a simple example.. lustrous ring - quest. not very hard.. but involving rares wandering around scorps which can be dangerous at times.. were downgraded.. while white gemstones.. probably the most common hit/dam ring in the game was kept the same.. i cant understand the logic in that.. yeah i know crypts CAN be hard at times.. many groups have spanked trying to search out that damn exit.. but come on.. its relatively easy.. not to mention ugly! and its not even a quest..

i dunno.. i'm still going through my new eq stats so i'm sure there are many others.. but this all just doesnt make sense to me.. i think that maybe we should all discuss eq changes before they're implemented.. like start a thread discussing what zones are hard enough to upgrade or easy enough to downgrade.. what quests are worthy of upgrade or downgrade.. etc.. maybe get some input from the players who are actually playing this mud..

one last thing.. in general that i see with my char.. hit/dam got hit hard.. melee is useless enough already.. i thought we were supposed to make it more equal??

ok thats enough bitching for now
i just work up :)
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:50 pm

A couple of points...

1. The eq with hit/dam and hp seemed to take the biggest hit on the downgrade. This causes more problems then it fixed. Caster hp took a downgrade but so did the majority of melee eq. The problem originally was casters had tons of hp, but lowering it all does solve this. My warrior took a bigger hp loss then my caster. Does that seem right? So now even the downgraded casters still have more hps then the downgraded warriors..

2. Eq zones which had decent eq spread across the board took a major hit. Zones where you have slug through junk to get something decent (ET, FP for example) either stayed the same or got an upgrade. I personally don't think zoners enjoy battling a medicore zone for a longer time for a 1 in 15 shot at something worthwile. Some fixes are either move the eq around (fang belt style) or keep/upgrade the old stats on these longer, harder zones. (BC)

3. Quest eq. I don't think I really have to comment much here. Time, items used in these quests is not equaling the rewards. Period.

4. Lowbie eq. I don't think this stuff should have took a major hit as it did. Were TG earrings easy to get? Yes. Did many high level players wear them? No. Does the change hurt the true newbies we are encouraging to play here now? Yes. I realize the mud has evolved over the many years, but why does it seem like everyone wants it to be as difficult as many of us had it? To me, it seems like a sitution of "I had it hard, so should you." Do we take the attitude with our children?

5. Prot eq. Of course tons of it is available across the board. I do agree it should have been rolled back bit. But now, it seems all the decent prot eq just got stuck on mid level items. Ice bears boots which I sold ages ago, now have pff and pfc. Higher level I had now does not. If the purpose of rolling back the prots is so everyone does not have them, I think that mission failed. Mid level players now have the prots, and the high level players will take little time to get these prots again. I just think forcing me to do a quest again, for the simple fact of needing a prot with decent stats, is silly and unneeded.

6. Weapons in general. Yes, everyone seemed to have a proccing weapon. The only question is simple. Now, do all classes have an equal chance to get a decent proccing weapon? Thinking of examples such as crypts mace and priest classes. And did it really matter that everyone had a proccing weapon. Leave people their toys, gave newer players something to gasp and wonder at. The high level players still all have multiple proccing weapons. So if 80% of the mud had a proccing weapon, now only 75% do. Pointless change imo.

7. Two handed weapons. Little to comment here except now it seems big badass swords aren't so badass anymore. These items weren't unbalancing anyways, so why change them? Warriors rarely used them (diminished skills such as shieldblock, etc.), pure hitters dual anyways, and many classes such as casters couldn't use them period.

I was trying to figure out the main reasons for the changes period. And in my humble opinion, these new changes solved nothing. A point system in a flawed system is going expose those flaws further. If the problem zones were ones like Brass, vault, etc and I think those zones should have been looked at case by case. Like a justice system, does everyone get the same punishment? No, a judge or jury decides the verdict on a case by case basis. If amy are overpowered, look at the amys. But ripping apart the whole zones eq should not have been the answer.

Like any video game, sports contest or really anything in life, things have to move upward. We are not "downgrading" our cars and going back to ones made in the 1980's. Of course, zones will always get outdated. Progress foward will do that. Downgrading eq as whole is a step in the wrong direction.

P.S. I do however really thank the admin for trying new ideas. How many eggs had to be broken to make the perfect omlette?
Meatshield
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:03 pm

why does prot eq need to be scaled back? The reason everyone put it in like gang busters is because every frikin corner you turn your staring into the tail of a dragon.

When they take out half the dragons in the game i'll support a scale back on prots. Until then, leave the god damn prot eq alone.

do it for the bags man
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:01 pm

DARTAN
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:23 am

Dalar wrote:DARTAN


Normally I don't agree with Dartan, but he's got a point here.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:34 pm

Mitharx wrote:
Dalar wrote:DARTAN


Normally I don't agree with Dartan, but he's got a point here.


I <3 Dartan
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:19 pm

8)

Why does Dartan remind me of Matt Daemon from Team America?

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