Deathknell vs. Avenger

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Deathknell vs. Avenger

Postby Yasden » Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:08 am

Ok...so DK got downgraded. That's fine. Avenger didn't, and it's one of the easiest quests in the game that can be done in one boot. Not to mention it got a complete overhaul that now makes it even MORE uber than before.

I just got raped repeatedly in Acheron because I couldn't get the paladin past few wounds most of the time due to his sword keeping him healed. I mean c'mon...I'm all for the sword having heal and whatnot but does it REALLY need to heal outside of combat? DK only heals off procs during combat and the deathproc, AND it got downgraded statwise to boot.

And for the love of god PLEASE change the quest. It was WAY harder to get when it was in CC than it is now. Seriously.

Deathmagnet
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Postby Cirath » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:44 am

Agree completely. I posted something about this in the object changes forum. It should also be noted that DK quest was made harder when it was downgraded.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:08 am

if you're going to make the holy avenger quest harder, please make the current holy avenger weak and make every paladin have to do the upgrade quest for its current state. IMHO areas really messed up when they let 20+ enchanted khanjaris in game so easily. the weapon is an epic weapon.
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Postby Ensis » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:40 am

Holy crap, who has done avenger quest in one boot?

It is easier than before though, donn why. I liked it better when the balor still had vorpal sword.

Besides, I thought deathknell had sense life infra and a bunch of other stuff.
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Postby Sarkhon » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:01 am

Ensis wrote:Besides, I thought deathknell had sense life infra and a bunch of other stuff.


Ensis, As far as I know, it DOES still have that other stuff. And come on now Yasden, lets be honest here. How many longterm paladins even play this game at the high-end with a paladin as their prime? In other words, how many people does this even effect? Here's a hint: I can count them on one hand. Sure there are twinks who may goof around with Ambrans, but those characters are almost always shortlived and don't really present any balance issues other than perhaps enjoying themself solo.

If anything, the weapon gives people a bit of an incentive to drag a paladin around for extra damage rather than friendship or sympathy. I mean really, when was the last time you saw more than 1 paladin in a high-end group anyways? You don't see me whining about the stacked and overpowered equipment Anti's can wear *coughMUSPMASKcough* because frankly it doesn't make much of a difference one way or another. You guys complain about the hit/dam on the weapon yet ignore the fact that good aligned hitters are forced (on average) to wear LESS dam than evil aligned because of the existing disparity between align restricted eq on quite a few slots.

Let's at least agree that this is more of an Anti vs. Paladin envy issue rather than balance issue and proceed from there. I'm all for making the quest tougher, or even making it a two-tiered quest such as enchanting the current version, but the weapon is perfectly fine as it is. At the worst, it gives some unwanted paladins a means to goof around while they're passed over for yet another zone. It all balances out in the end so just give this issue a rest and let the staff focus on addressing MELEE as a whole rather than an individual weapon for a seldom played class
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Postby Yasden » Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:57 am

My point here is that anti's and paladins need to be balanced opposites. If the weapons are going to be the "definition" of the class, then shouldn't they be the same? I'm really only complaining about the heal proc working outside of combat, nothing more. But as turnabout, shouldn't both weapons be of equal difficulty to obtain and relatively the same stats? It has nothing to do with envy, just found it a little offensive that the proc adjustments made the weapon even more powerful when the stats on the item weren't even touched.

And yes, I've seen the quest done in one boot, several times. Not hard to find the paladin groups.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:58 pm

IMHO the quest should match the reward. That's it. No class comparisons. Right now, Avenger completely owns because it procs holy word. Almost every zone contains a majority of evil aligned mobs.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Stamm » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:05 pm

In my opinion holy and unholy Avengers are an ability that has to be quested for just like resurrect, dragonscales, fire embody.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:45 pm

Imho, as an anti thats played for years and done both quests a number of times. According to cost/reward system laid out by imms, unholy should be FAR superior. The quest for holy is easy. period.

There are countless differences between the classes, too many to name, but the tradeoffs of casting heal on ones self vs misc utility skills that antis get makes em about par.

As for equipment, it's almost even. The number of items that are evil only is truly still a bit higher, but the eq changes have done a decent job of maiming both sides without plaing favorites. Hell, we'll probbably all be wearing SPOB gear anyhow.

Finally If you have any comments/questions/concerns, or just want to compare things, message me or find me online. I'll show you what it's like.

Ultimately, the changes i would like to see to avengers would be this:
Make dice the same on both
Make quest for holy tougher
Remove Farsee from unholy
Decrease holy word proc frequency on Holy.
Done.
Now go make the classes worth a lick, and somethin people actually take to zones on purpose as opposed to being a class that rarely has a spot anywhere.


BTW for all those paladins crying about fairness... look at the mud, how much of it is evil? vs how much is good? I think if nothing else, the exp bonus that is given far outweighs bonuses/penalties vs either alignment that the classes get. I rarely get to use unholy aura, as its a short duration and is only really useful in clouds and sometimes seelie.
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Postby Grimenkhan » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:00 pm

This post is not directed at any of the previous posters directly. But why does this MUD have such a fascination with making all things "equal". Is that what ppl call balanced? Why should the two sword be "equal".

Hell I think the DK sword should be upgraded to match the quest difficulty and save all the time and effort of redoing the HA quests and procs. Its not like there is going to be a group of 15 ants running around smacking all the zones. Screw the point system and make some class defining items truly good. I understand overall some items need DG'd but where did the mentality come from that all things need DG'd or made "equal" somehow. You are talking about classes that are outnumbered by warriors by quite a bit.

Upgrade DK.

Fix Melee.

Blah
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:29 pm

Actually, I'm going to remove myself from this conversation. I don't have a high level anti or a highlevel paladin. I haven't done the avenger quest or the DK quest.
Last edited by Sesexe on Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gura » Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:32 pm

definitely not sesexe. the amount of eq that is evil/good align restricted shouldnt have anything to do with the a reward for an easy quest. blame that on the areas gods.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:06 pm

Sarkhon wrote:How many longterm paladins even play this game at the high-end with a paladin as their prime? In other words, how many people does this even effect? Here's a hint: I can count them on one hand.


So because less people play a paladin as their main their items should be better AND easier to acquire? Well I like that reasoning, that means an upgrade for all evils and their gear and make all quests for them easier.
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Postby Sarkhon » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:45 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
Sarkhon wrote:So because less people play a paladin as their main their items should be better AND easier to acquire? Well I like that reasoning, that means an upgrade for all evils and their gear and make all quests for them easier.


Not in the least. Yasden said something to the effect of Ambran being horribly unbalanced because it heals too often both in and out of combat. My point was simply that even if by that logic it is unbalanced -- which in my opinion it's not -- that it isn't worth bitching and moaning about because it affects so few people in day-to-day zoning. The better thing to hone the staff in on is to fix melee as a whole rather than the semantics of a healing proc which has been on Ambran for what, 10+ years now?

As far as the holy word proccage goes -- it's been reduced numerous times already. I tested it pretty heavily today screwing around with Dartan, and from what I can tell, it's been cut pretty steadily from what its prior rate. Maybe 1-2 procs per average length fight, that's about it. Honestly, I've tested it pretty heavily, and it's absolutely fine as it is.

Lastly, not to derail your little argument about questing difficulty -- because yeah, Ambran isn't too difficult -- but Kern produces quite a few other items other than Deathknell. You can't just compare the two quests straight up and point to stat disparities because it doesn't quite work that way. Perhaps Deathknell's quest should be taken out of Kern entirely so that it can be balanced accordingly from there.

Now where's my friggen paladin only mask that's equivalent to the atrocity you anti's can get in musp? (heavy sarcasm intended)
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Re: Deathknell vs. Avenger

Postby Aldavien » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:48 pm

Yasden wrote:Ok...so DK got downgraded. That's fine. Avenger didn't, and it's one of the easiest quests in the game that can be done in one boot. Not to mention it got a complete overhaul that now makes it even MORE uber than before.

I just got raped repeatedly in Acheron because I couldn't get the paladin past few wounds most of the time due to his sword keeping him healed. I mean c'mon...I'm all for the sword having heal and whatnot but does it REALLY need to heal outside of combat? DK only heals off procs during combat and the deathproc, AND it got downgraded statwise to boot.

And for the love of god PLEASE change the quest. It was WAY harder to get when it was in CC than it is now. Seriously.

Deathmagnet


He doesn't mention that for 50% of said "raping" he had forgotten to rewield his deathknell....:P

The swords procs were dg'd at last boot. I was doing so well due to damage off charge and disarm/not getting proc'd on. Also, not getting the deathproc kept him from being able to pick me off like he was earlier. The downgrade DK got statwise I would call fairly trivial due to keeping sense-life/farsee/infra. From what I have seen of the point system those are worth a bundle in themselves. I'm all for an upgrade to holy avenger quest, but nowhere near as difficult as DK quest. DK quest while tons harder nets more then just the one sword.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:25 pm

Why not remove the stupid ass platemail that nobody wears anyway from the quest. that should fix the "point" problem everyone is whining about. and remove farsee. farsee is stupid on a sword, uber sillyness. Infra/farsee are relatively easy to get elsewhere. sense is kinda a bitch, but whatever. Ultimately i think the complaint of all is that the holy avenger is at least an equal sword, made more powerful by its alignment based abilities, for a CONSIDERABLY easier quest. most people seem to realize that the quest is simple, and do ask for an upgrade. why do we still discuss this? obviously the imms either have read it and are considering it, or have read it and don't give a flying shit.

I think it would do the mud best to lock this thread =P
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Postby Cordan » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:32 pm

I've played some with my avenger in acheron, and if I stand toe to toe and don't flee, a warrior can usually beat me. If I flee and let the avenger heal, then yeah, I'm all set. Proc doesn't matter against some casters I've gone up against, their spells hurt to damn much. I won't even talk about rogues.
Anywho, the heal proc has really only helped me in two ways, acheron and solo cash runs. There have been a few times where the heal proc saved me from death in groups, but not many. Once your spells fall, the heal proc doesn't really help much anyway since your hps start to magically disappear in big fights. OUCH! That really HURT!
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Postby Stamm » Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:08 pm

*nod* Heal proc isn't going to help a great deal in big zones... But it should make an impact in xping (the difference between needing a form of healing or not) and it will help you solo stuff... But then again, paladins already have heal, so it's not introducing something to the class that they don't already have.

Warriors, of course, can't.
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:25 pm

Deathknell and the holy avenger have both morphed throughout the game to become a definitive addition to the class, much like Ress to a cleric, and Inferno to an invoker. As such you have to treat it as an learned skill or ability. That means that every anti or paladin is going to eventually have it no matter what. Continuing on that logic, we also have to apply the weapon in it's relevance to the mud dynamics and the class skills aside from just the weapon.

Ignoring the weapon stats for now, we have to focus on the actuall procs of the weapons, and thier applications to the mud;

Currently and as long as the mud has been in existance, the majority of the fights are done against primarily evil based mobs. Its the way it is, and the way it has always been. I doubt if that will change anytime soon, because that is the way the ad&d universe is set up. It is an outline for the continuous battle against evil.

SO, with that in mind, we also have to realize that the anti and the paladin classes were created to be very similar and close to equal. That may have changed which only the staff can elaborate on, but that obviously was thier original intention.

So continuing;

Paladins-
Get 25% bonus exp against the majority of the mud.
Get a bonus 20 armor against the majority of the mud (PFE)
Get bonus holy word spell from thier sword which works on the majority of the mud.

Anti-
Dosen't get bonuse exp.
Gets a bonus 20 armor against a minority of the mud (PFG)
Gets unholy word spell from thier sword which works on a small minority of the mud.

Lets dig deeper into the procs now.

Unholy avenger-

On Critical hits procs blindeness.
Throughout the fight it can proc a heal which does slightly more then 2x your level in damage to the mob, and heals you approximately 2x your level. If this procs though your actuall attack is canceled, so in average you do NO extra damage. The heal caps out at about 125.
At the end of a fight, if you get the killing blow on a mob greater then 50th level it can proc 5-7 times your level heal on the wieleder (unsure of actuall amount, but its close to full heal)
If you are fighting good aligned mobs, it has a chance to proc unholy word.

Holy Avenger
To save time on meming the holy avenger procs bless and armor, which the anti's have to cast often.
At any time the sword does and can proc heal, fairly regularly. The heal is for about 140 at max. The heal can be done IN or OUT of combat. It does not cancel the attack to proc this heal.
The sword has a damage proc that does good damage, though Im not positive on the exact numbers. The damage proc does not cancel the attack.
The holy avenger procs holy word when engaged with an evil aligned mob. Which is a significant large portion of the mud then good aligned mobs.

*I've heard the holy avenger procs breach, but that I don't know about.


If we consider all these facts, and then add in the fact that the unholy avenger quest is harder, (No matter the rewards, antis will feel the need to do it wether it has extra rewards or not) it becomes fairly obvious that the holy avenger is significantly more powerful then the unholy avenger.
I would like to see this corrected, and I'm not sure the best way, either to modify the holy avenger, or the unholy avenger.

This was all done without analyzing the actual stats, which are close to the same, because deathknell has infra etc, with less dice hit/dam.


Post note:
This is an obvious reason why posting at school isn't a great idea, I have too much time to formulate my thoughts and add them to the paper.
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Postby Karae » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:39 pm

Well I think i've seen my holy avenger breach, but i'm not entirely sure, cause it was on plants, in trollbark, it could have been a failed slice message mebbe? but i've succesfully sliced those same plants though. Dunno.
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Postby Cordan » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:32 pm

If breach is the spell that reduces protective magic on a mob, then yeah, it does proc breach. I've seen it once.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:00 am

Semantics, but: pfgood/pfevil add 10ac, not 20.

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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:38 am

Sorry, in regards to that, I mistakenly added the bonus 10 ac that paladins get when armor/shield/phantom armor is cast on them, just for being those 2 classes.

So your right.. PFG, PFE.. 10 ac,
Armor, etc. bonus 10 ac...


On that note, is my logic faulty? Or does it hold some semblence of order?
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Postby Marforp » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:52 am

Over all great post Gromikazer two things:

Minor point: I'm fairly sure almost all paladins would trade away the proc of armor/bless since it takes away a proc of heal so this advantage of less mem time is really a disadvantage.

Additionally you state:

"Paladins-
Get 25% bonus exp against the majority of the mud.
Get a bonus 20 armor against the majority of the mud (PFE)
Get bonus holy word spell from thier sword which works on the majority of the mud.

Anti-
Dosen't get bonuse exp.
Gets a bonus 20 armor against a minority of the mud (PFG)
Gets unholy word spell from thier sword which works on a small minority of the mud."

1) PFG/PFE = wash
2) Percentage of the mud holy/unholy works on is mostly pointless. Holy/Unholy does not do enough damage to cause either to be invited to groups. However, I will agree that it does make the holy avenger more powerfull then the unholy avenger.
3) As stated by others the heal proc out of battle really only gives the advantages to paladins to solo exp (but remember were only talking about reducing mem times since paladins do get that spell) this is a nice advantage especially when the 25% bonus exp is taken into consideration. However, if one thinks of the typical exp zones these days the anti-paladin can do DS whereas the paladin can not. Additionally, the anti-paladin can do every mob in the 'evil' monestary, but paladins can not. If some of the old exp zones were 'un-nerfed' then this wouldn't be such an important point, but as it is it's HUGE.

IMHO in the end the paladins get a slightly better sword, but the difference is not that significant (don't forget about the addition of infra/sense for anti-paladins). The real question is the difficulty of the quest compared to the rewards and in that equation the other 'prizes' must be considered and I'll let others decide what the final result is.

p.s. The holy avenger is why I played my paladin and I really enjoy him, but the failures of paladins to be invited to real groups is the reason why I'm leveling an invoker.

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Postby moritheil » Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:36 am

My logic runs thus:

1. It has been stated that we do not wish to promote "cookie cutter" characters, that is, everyone wearing amy rings for melee, or eldritch rings for the casters, and wearing starsilver eq, etc, etc.

2. To that end, there is supposedly a wealth of nearly-equivalent eq in the game. It may not do the same stuff, but it's worth about the same in terms of effectiveness, thus making sure there is more than one viable option in terms of eq.


Now, it seems to follow from the above that no class should be defined by a single object. Yet this is not currently the case for Antis and Paladins. Sure, many antis wield other weapons. Many paladins do as well. But there clearly is, in most peoples' minds, a single defining weapon for each of those classes. This is something of an aberration. There is no 'defining spellbook' for mages, no defining shield for warriors. (Sure, the pbone comes to mind, but it was a *common* shield, not the best, and it was also taken out.)

So why is that?
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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:17 am

PFE and PFG is not a wash. PFE has about 80% more practical uses, though overall it is only 10 ac... and I 'belive' a SS or two against evil mobs.

Paladins don't need DS exp, because EVERY evil mob they kill is equivalent.

Holy/Unholy not only works well and does decent damage (your right not great damage) but it has a multitude of side effects, including stunning mobs.

You named two zones, that paladins can't readily do for experience. I could easily name 50 that a paladin can. Complaining about lack of choices for a paladin to do experience garners no respect among the anti community. Antis strive to find a zone with good align to do exp in, oh wait...

Can you think of 'ONE' good aligned mobs experience zone?

Elites in WD come to mind, but I can't think of anything else. I guess its good anti's dont get the same 25% bonus against good aligned mobs eh, or else they would be screwed.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:08 am

I reckon unholy avenger is cake to get just from all the elf collars, they'll prolly slow down in quantity now that easy to get musp necklace has is better in hp so no point to wear 2 collar :9 <- my 2c
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Postby othelil » Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:19 pm

Gromikazer wrote:PFE and PFG is not a wash. PFE has about 80% more practical uses


I don't really understand this argument. Anyone who picked anti understood that would mean they'd be more effective against good mobs, so saying down the road that having the paladin advantage is better is kind of silly. You already made the choice, so you get the protections that come along with it.

This is like saying since holy has more uses than unholy anti's should get another powerful spell in that circle. It just doesn't make sense. You get the spells and protections that come with your class choice and they are equivalent to the spells and protections that go with the opposing class choice. The fact that there are more evil mobs does not mean you should get more on your sword, or in your spells, because honestly you already made the choice that you wanted to be better against good mobs.
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Postby Cirath » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:27 pm

Othelil:

So basically, you are saying that because we rolled a class, whether or not we knew at the time that the mud alignments were set so as to make our abilities next to worthless, that when our sister class gets an upgrade that throws off balance by making them to powerful that we should just nod and say "we deserve that?"

I fail to see your reasoning behind that.
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Postby othelil » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:52 pm

Actually what I'm saying is that saying "holy word" is more powerful than "unholy word" because of mob distribution is silly. You're trying to fix a different problem the wrong way. Holy Word = Unholy Word, and PFG = PFE. The fact that there aren't enough good aligned mobs, or enough good aligned mobs worth doing, is a _different_ problem.

You can't say you deserve more effects on your sword because the mob distribution is off, but you can suggest that we get some more good zones in. The power of the two spells is equivalent, the only reason one has more uses than the other is because there are more evil zones. That, however, is not an issue with the power of the weapons it is an issue with the balance in zone alignments.
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Postby Ensis » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:14 pm

I'm glad Holy avenger got fixed. Dispel magic was stupid, stoneskin was worse, and dispel evil as a direct damage spell was kinda silly too. I've always liked the proc on armor and bless, and heal was nice too. As far as I know, it's just heal as the cleric spell, I don't think I've seen it do more than 100 to me, but I don't have an avenger anymore so it could have changed as well. Breach made it more useful, Holy word made it more offensive, and the new damage proc from what I hear is kinda like dispel evil.

I don't know the exact current stats of Deathknell, I think its 8d4 +5 +4? correct me ANti's. It procs vampiric heal, full heal with deathblow, blindness and unholy word. It has sense life, infravision, and farsee as innates.

If the vampiric heal negates an attack, yea I think that should be fixed. The hitdam should be equal to the holy avenger as should the dice. The main differences I can see, are that the Anti has "better" innates, and the avenger has more spell procs. (aside from the obvious hitdam)

As far as paladin versus anti. Back in the day when we had to fight gnolls and other stupid crap it was a necessity to get the 25% exp bonus. Now, considering the abundance of evil mobs out there, I'm not sure its so necessary. The bonus was put in because paladins LOSE exp for killing anything that isn't evil and/or aggressive. The Anti bonus I guess you could say is being able to kill any mob. Logistically, it makes little sense now because most mobs and most big exp zones are evil. So pallys have more room to run around.

As far as holy word vs unholy word.. theres no way to balance that. It is pound for pound the same spell, and yea it sucks that there aren't enough good mobs to use it on but blame the area makers, or write a zone. Im not trying to sound draconian about it, but it's something I'd accept.

As far as the quest differences. Yea, Holy Avenger IS super easy, if you know everything about it. When I did it I hunted those guys relentlessly, which gets exceedingly more difficult since people like to kill them for sport. But it is a really easy quest. Again, I wish they didn't take the vorpal proc from the Balor, I liked that part.

Unholy avenger from what I've heard is long..its loooong. The item didn't deserve a downgrade for the work they gotta go through to get the sword.

I donno, we could beat the horse to death all day..the question is do we think the imms will do anything about it?
Sarkhon
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Postby Sarkhon » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:24 pm

Cirath wrote:So basically, you are saying that because we rolled a class, whether or not we knew at the time that the mud alignments were set so as to make our abilities next to worthless, that when our sister class gets an upgrade that throws off balance by making them to powerful that we should just nod and say "we deserve that?".


Great, another winning argument. Explain to me, Cirath, how a holy word proc which has already been REDUCED at LEAST 2-3 times in the last few weeks makes a paladin "too powerful" when it, on average, now procs ONCE or TWICE per fight. Perhaps it was too powerful when the changes initially went in (even though it proc'd lag on us for a good two weeks), but the proc rate is now completely in line with a high-end weapon.

Last I checked, most Paladins -- whether zoning or exp'ing -- are killing things quite a few levels above them, so assuming it even proc's a couple times, the spell's side effects (paralyze and the like) just aren't going to be a factor. I suppose a paladin can have a gay old time in Splitshield or Gnolls, but for the most part, you guys are bickering just to bicker over a miniscule amount of damage. If you've got some kind of legitimate point how Paladins are "too powerful" then feel free to make it, but don't resort to the already played out crap of the mud being primarily evil, because it's frankly not gonna cut it.

Increase the quest's difficulty, fine. Increase unholy avenger's hit/dam while removing its sense/infra, fine. But don't put yourself on this ever-evolving pedestal that somehow equates Paladins -- let alone their Avengers -- as the end all, be all, of Melee, because it's an absolute far cry from the truth. As Delmair said (just about the only Anti to give constructive and informed comments, I might add), this thread should be locked ASAP because absolutely nothing is being accomplished by it.
Hyldryn
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:48 pm

About avengers, the paladin one doesn't grant any additional abilities to the paladin. The anti one does, I'd say the major one addresses one of the greater weaknesses to an anti's soloing ability, healing. The unholy is alot more useful to an anti than a holy is to a pal.

If this is about dice and hit/dam.... knock back the holy or bump up the unholy it'll make a 2 or 3 round difference in a solo fight? And a negligible difference in a group fight? whoopie.

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