If this becomes permanent...

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
thanuk
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If this becomes permanent...

Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:43 pm

First I wanna commend you guys upstairs for addressing a problem with the mud in a swift and direct manner. Opening up neutral/evil humans to group with evilraces will definately have an immediate impact on their ability to group and zone. I'm sure you also realize that un-screwing the evils screws a whole lot of the rest of us, although we on the goodie side are somewhat less screwed than evils were previously, we're screwed none the less.

But now we gotta have a little talk. With humans able to go either way, you end up with a number of races/classes that are severely underpowered. You basically end up with two teams:

Team goodie: Barbarians, dwarves, grey elves, bastards(aka half-elfs), gnomes, halflings, good aligned humans
Team baddie: Ogres, trolls, drow elves, duergar dwarves, illithids, orcs, yuan-ti.

If neutral/evil humans are now allowed to group with either side, it opens up a whole new world of balance issues. The only advantage team goodie has over anyone on team baddie is established characters. For every good race, there exists an evil race who can play the same class and be better off in doing so, right from the start, except for paladins, but who cares about paladins. This used to be justified in that evils were #1 harder, and #2 had less people to group with. Those justifications no longer stand. So what about grey elves and mountain dwarves? What about barbarians and gnomes and halflings?

What do I, an evil aligned barbarian have to offer a group? I get less hps than a troll, I have lower natural agility. I cannot regen. I do not have infravision. Any eq that used to grant me infravision has been nerfed to shit. Mobs do not just unendingly cast cloud anymore, which weakens the negative impact of fire weakness on trolls. So basically there's nothing; there's nothing I can do that a troll can't do better. I used to be okay with that, because other people couldn't group with trolls; I was their best option by default. That is no longer the case, at least for now. And I have the funny feeling that this change is going to stick, maybe not permanently, but longer than the 5 day trial period.

Hopefully its obvious where this is going. Are you going to tone down the racial modifiers on the evil side? Lower the effectiveness of their innate abilities? Do something to compensate for the fact that a barbarian warrior, or a grey elf rogue, or good aligned human cleric is completely underpowered and hold no advantage over other race/class combos? Or should I fire up the statbot and start rolling a troll?

This is not supposed to be a flame. I'm sure this stuff crossed your mind when you were considering making this change, I'd just like to know what thoughts you had that made you say "It'll be fine, lets go ahead and do it".
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:59 pm

Well, here's my take on the situation.

First, the evil pbase is not large enough for this to seriously impact goodies zoning opportunities. It just isn't. This change gives them the option to round out their groups with human subs who are inferior to any evilrace option for the same class but nobody plays them.

What you, an evil barbarian warrior have to offer is the ability to tank for any group that wants a non-evilrace, non-human character along. The majority of the goodie population right now consists of demi-humans, or team goodie as you called it. This change isn't going to suddenly shift the zoning balance over to the evil side. There's still an enormous population of good-race characters who will need sucke... er tanks to die for them.
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Postby rylan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:40 pm

Thanuk, want to group with a good aligned human cleric? :P
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Postby rylan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:41 pm

feh double post
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:51 pm

rylan wrote:Thanuk, want to group with a good aligned human cleric? :P


We getting AoB back together?:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:56 pm

I thought about it once, then decided forming/running a guild was too much work for what I wanted from a game :P
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Postby Gromikazer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:11 pm

I don't know, I think people are declaring doomsday, when I feel that this is a perfectly fine adjustment.

Let the change go for a few days, I don't think this will hurt anyone.
Gromikazer Terrorforge - 50th Duergar Warrior
Gamorakul - 49th Duergar Elementalist
Direb - 41st Orc Dire Raider
Gokal - 46th Orc Shaman
Lipopple - 40th Gnome Illusionist
Talkryn - 41st Human Anti-Paladin

Games dont make people violent, lag does.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:13 pm

Gromikazer wrote:I don't know, I think people are declaring doomsday, when I feel that this is a perfectly fine adjustment.

Let the change go for a few days, I don't think this will hurt anyone.


Its amazing how people who benefit from things see them differently from those who lose out because of them, eh?:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:14 pm

does anything really compensate for having a cloud go off once in a while and hitting your tanks for 1200 damage?

If I could choose between barbarian or dwarven tanks and troll tanks, I'd take barbs and dwarves. The reason evils don't have anything but troll tanks is yuanti lost 4 slots and had human hps and agility, duegar are ultra, drow are ultra, and no ogre seems to be able to figure out how to dress like a tank.

oh and the biggest potential balance issue I can see is the HUMAN DRUID.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:17 pm

oh, and before this, only YUAN TI could be illusionists.

sometimes, being yuan sucks when it comes to bidding gear and the only thing the group has is earrings, boots and leggings.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:29 pm

i cant decided if i like it or not...

good: evil players can play again

good: theres a reason to play a human

bad: theres even less reason to be good aligned

?: evils have access to doom and the druid aresnal of spells. I'm thinking mostly about area spells and feedback, but im sure there is more.

?: i always felt evils was a place for the misfits and the people who enjoy being the underdogs ect... I feel like something significant was lost in this artificial increase of the evil pbase.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:35 pm

i dont remember seeing too many human druids. mostly half elves and elves.

edit: someone just rolled a level 1 human druid
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Postby Cirath » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:13 pm

I am failing to see how losing a few humans to an evilrace group will have any impact at all on goodrace groups. Its no different than if they joined a different goodrace group.

Maybe that's just me.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:16 pm

Well, before this happened, at any given time you were lucky to have enough people on to run 2 zone groups at the same time. The classes I always ended up looking for were enchanters and clerics. The classes evils bitch about not having? Enchanters and clerics. So if 2 groups are running, and one of them is evil....
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:11 am

btw you can't really tell anything in 5 days. evils have always been cyclical. sure theres gonna be a whole lot of activity for the next week but i would sure think hard about whether there was real change or benefit and how much was just excitement and christmas vacation.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Sarell » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:28 pm

Evils getting more access to player base is good. Getting three entire extra classes is out of line. Perhaps make it evil humans only so druids can't group with squid? Also consider making you auto flagged outcast if you do group with evil? Really must hurt the poor fools who made half elfs :P

As it currently stands this makes evils coded as MUCH more powerful than goodies imho. Which already was the case. What would happen when the player numbers do pick up, which is what I think torilmud was trying to achieve?
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:40 pm

That's one of my biggest concerns. We don't really need "temporary" bandages, because if the staff decides to alter it down the road, the uproar is going to be ridiculous. If we're trying to get new players in, we don't want to break them in on such a balance-breaking system, then yank it out from under their feet, because all it's going to do is drive them right back out again. What we need is a system that can stay in place permanently, yet doesn't so thoroughly disrupt the point of balance that we've worked so hard to achieve so far as this and doesn't completely discriminate against one small minority in the mud the way this does.

I'd be more apt to go for the "all or nothing" method than I would this. I do have to repeat, though, that I believe the mud would be much better off if it returned to a stricter system, than this eternal cycle of "dumbing down." It's a lot easier to feel like you've accomplished something when everybody knows how difficult the accomplishment was, and we already know there were a lot more people playing here when there was a lot more to feel a sense of accomplishment over than there is now in this "kinder, gentler," and much easier version of Sojourn.
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:57 pm

I like the change, I wish I could deny evils druids but it just seems too much like sour grapes. Something might need to be done about druid areas for balance sake but i don't begrudge them druid spells(except in a selfish way i try to ignore :P ). Good had a couple more classes for a while, evils can have more classes for a while. Maybe paladins could use a bit of a tanking upgrade, if APs and paladin are similar powerwise who'd play paladins when AP can group with goods and evils. Wouldn't hurt to make paladins better tanks of evil aligned mobs so people might actually seek them out for groups instead of just taking them if there aren't enough warriors on. And yes there aren't many human druids but if this becomes permanent i'm sure evils will level up a few for some of the unique spells druids can provide.
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:09 pm

Can human druids use evils are moonwell targets?
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Postby Ruxur » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:44 pm

Ashiwi wrote: I do have to repeat, though, that I believe the mud would be much better off if it returned to a stricter system, than this eternal cycle of "dumbing down." It's a lot easier to feel like you've accomplished something when everybody knows how difficult the accomplishment was, and we already know there were a lot more people playing here when there was a lot more to feel a sense of accomplishment over than there is now in this "kinder, gentler," and much easier version of Sojourn.


sigh i miss the hard ass staff :-P

someone has to keep you twinks in line
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'
Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'
Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'
Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:22 pm

hrm.

who's gonna take an ap over a troll or ogre?


this onlyreally hurts our drow and duergar community, as their most oft rolled classes (chanter/mentalist/cleric) will just be sitting around the fountain like last night..i seen one 46 chanter sitting at the fountain for god knows how long while an evil zoning group was formed around 6 humans...one of those being a chanter.

this could be bad...it could be good. i'd vote for something that's not so open to everybod.
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Postby Werg » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:34 pm

I don't think anybody understands how this works.... ok lemme see if I can help.


Oh, I'm just sitting here at the fountain, no evils on, and nothing to do... Oh wait, NOW I can group with some evil aligned goodies so I wont be bored out of my mind.

nuff said....
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Postby Cordan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:47 pm

I don't think it will make that big of a difference at all personally. And i'm speaking from a "nonaffected" standpoint.

The biggest benefit is to evil aligned humans.

Evil Humans - They can now group with ANYONE. (big change)

Evils - Can group with evils and evil humans (little change)

Good aligned - can now group with.... good races (no change)

Sure, evils might steal a evil aligned human ench, cleric, illus, or nuetral druid every once in a while.... but how often?

Yeah, I don't think nuetral align should be allowed with this. Druids grouping with trolls? Uh, yeah.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:12 pm

Yeah, because there's so many human druids running around. *ROLL*

Seriously guys, do a "who human sort" and then you ask all of them if they're neutral or evil. Any paladins or rangers are automatically exempt. The only guarantees are liches, necros, anti's, and druids. I seriously doubt you'll see but maybe 1 or 2 druids ever come along (and those would be as a result of this change) that are human.

For the most part this was done to help with our lack of spellcaster classes such as clerics, elementalists, illusionists, and enchanters. And for the most part that is all we've had in our groups since this change. We haven't even done a MAJOR zone yet (unless you count me leading Oakvale last night), so people are spouting off when none of us have even seen the direct results.

Nuk, you're whining about being a tank. You realize we can ONLY group with humans right? That means any group that has ANYTHING but humans would have to take you (my condolences) or a dwarf tank. That means probably 99.9999999% of all goodie groups to come. I seriously doubt there will ever be a full human group with 2 troll tanks. You're being irrational about this.

Why don't you guys let us do a few actual zones with humans and let the imms decide if it's too imbalancing or not...seriously.

Deathmagnet

P.S. The only 2 methods of transportation that are working across the board are rifts and evil portals. Nothing else (goodie portals, wormhole, moonwell, shift, fold, assist) will be working until next boot, according to Shevarash. And yes, res works. :P
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Postby Gyrx » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:20 pm

Teyaha wrote:hrm.

who's gonna take an ap over a troll or ogre?


lots of people :p
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:02 pm

Yasden wrote:Yeah, because there's so many human druids running around. *ROLL*

Give it two weeks, and you'll see them coming out of the woodwork, just like any other class that gets a huge upgrade as the result of a change.
Yasden wrote:Seriously guys, do a "who human sort" and then you ask all of them if they're neutral or evil. Any paladins or rangers are automatically exempt. The only guarantees are liches, necros, anti's, and druids. I seriously doubt you'll see but maybe 1 or 2 druids ever come along (and those would be as a result of this change) that are human.

You'll find that 90% of humans are neutral, so they can avoid holy and unholy word. The remaining 10% only stay that way for RP reasons, or are just dumb like Rylan.
Yasden wrote:For the most part this was done to help with our lack of spellcaster classes such as clerics, elementalists, illusionists, and enchanters. And for the most part that is all we've had in our groups since this change. We haven't even done a MAJOR zone yet (unless you count me leading Oakvale last night), so people are spouting off when none of us have even seen the direct results.

I was on at 11:30 pm eastern last night. I did a who 40 warrior sort. There was 8 level 40 or higher warriors on, 4 were trolls(yourself, gura, 2 guys I dont know too well), 2 were barbarians(me and moltok), 2 were dwarves(stamm and crumar). Then i did a who ungrouped sort and there were 4...2 dwarves, and 2 barbarians. That's pretty direct. Why was that the case? Because there was only 1 goodrace enchanter on who had dragonscales, and he was grouped with you guys.
Yasden wrote:Nuk, you're whining about being a tank. You realize we can ONLY group with humans right? That means any group that has ANYTHING but humans would have to take you (my condolences) or a dwarf tank. That means probably 99.9999999% of all goodie groups to come. I seriously doubt there will ever be a full human group with 2 troll tanks. You're being irrational about this.

#1 you shouldn't offer your condolences, as after seeing your afk skills in zones i think you should roll a cleric.

#2 its not about being a tank, its about having to share enchanters and clerics with evilrace groups. Now im the enchanter, and i say hrm...i can group with the goodies or the evils. The evils have better stats, more powerful characters, they mem faster, their tanks have better hps and agility. The goodies mem slower, die easier, and have less powerful characters. Who should I pick to group with? That's not a real hard question.

#3 I'm not "whining about being a tank" you pussy. My complaint, as it were, is that evilrace characters still have superior racial benefits, along the lines of innates and stat modifiers, but they no longer have any of the drawbacks that used to justify those racial benefits. It's bullshit, and you know it is, you just benefit from it so you don't want them to change it. I can understand that, but it still doesn't change the point. Everybody around here bitches about this being a "cookie cutter mud". Then you go and make it so that one race is so far superior to every other race at a given class, that it would be stupid to play another race because you would be at a severe disadvantage.

At least when evils and goods were separate, you had the whole "hardships of evil" sob story to explain away why trolls have better con, agility, and natural regen. You could tell people it was okay that a yuan-ti cleric will pray spells faster than every other race in the game, because they have to live in a hard hometown and would have less players to play with. Hell, on the flipside, you could tell all those illithids that it was too bad that they sucked compared to druids, but it didn't matter; all the evils would have to group with them anyway because they weren't allowed to group with druids. Now what do you tell them? Sorry your character is inferior to a human druid in every aspect of the game, but uhh, you have really shitty mana and no hit points either, so its okay?

Look, im sorry that you guys were such unbearable pricks that nobody wanted to play with you. It sucks. They want to make it easy on you guys, give you humans to fill in for all the people you scared away with your squabbling and bullshit? Great. I hope you have a great time zoning again. But now that you can group with humans, and you're hometowns are nice and fluffy, and you can level to 50 without even leaving the friggin drow city, why do you still have better innates and better stats? What is so hard about being an evilrace character these days that they deserve to be better at everything?

There is nothing; all your weaknesses have been nerfed to make your side more "user friendly". Well that's terrific for you. But now that being an evil is just as easy as being a goodie, there's no justification that your characters have superior stats and innates. None whatsoever. And I just want to know if that is going to be addressed, or if it's tough shit for the rest of us, who now have inferior characters just because we weren't big enough dicks to make everyone stop wanting to group with us. If that's the case, then i'll just start being a real asshole, until nobody wants to group with me and they upgrade my race/class combo as well.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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perrrrfect!

Postby Abbayarra » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:04 pm

Now my all evil human group on Saturday night can group with evils as well!(we have a cleric and an enchanter)
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Postby Yasden » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:30 pm

thanuk wrote:Give it two weeks, and you'll see them coming out of the woodwork, just like any other class that gets a huge upgrade as the result of a change.

Right, I'm sure Gordex and Verarb are just going to start playing again because of this.
thanuk wrote:You'll find that 90% of humans are neutral, so they can avoid holy and unholy word. The remaining 10% only stay that way for RP reasons, or are just dumb like Rylan.

Yeah because holy word does so much damage...ROFL.
thanuk wrote:I was on at 11:30 pm eastern last night. I did a who 40 warrior sort. There was 8 level 40 or higher warriors on, 4 were trolls(yourself, gura, 2 guys I dont know too well), 2 were barbarians(me and moltok), 2 were dwarves(stamm and crumar). Then i did a who ungrouped sort and there were 4...2 dwarves, and 2 barbarians. That's pretty direct. Why was that the case? Because there was only 1 goodrace enchanter on who had dragonscales, and he was grouped with you guys.

I didn't know Qazap and Vikaz were human...we only had 1 human with us last night, and he has a scaler alt. That what you're talking about?
thanuk wrote:#1 you shouldn't offer your condolences, as after seeing your afk skills in zones i think you should roll a cleric.

God forbid some of us have a RL and have to deal with kids and a WOMAN. What race cleric should I roll? Human? >:)
thanuk wrote:#2 its not about being a tank, its about having to share enchanters and clerics with evilrace groups. Now im the enchanter, and i say hrm...i can group with the goodies or the evils. The evils have better stats, more powerful characters, they mem faster, their tanks have better hps and agility. The goodies mem slower, die easier, and have less powerful characters. Who should I pick to group with? That's not a real hard question.

There's plenty of clerics and enchanters to go around. I've seen you guys have 3 full groups going simultaneously, so don't feed me that crap. Having innates and bonuses doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't ever zone. It's not like we go around stealing your zones (waits for the ancient SPoB incident comment).
thanuk wrote:#3 I'm not "whining about being a tank" you pussy. My complaint, as it were, is that evilrace characters still have superior racial benefits, along the lines of innates and stat modifiers, but they no longer have any of the drawbacks that used to justify those racial benefits. It's bullshit, and you know it is, you just benefit from it so you don't want them to change it. I can understand that, but it still doesn't change the point. Everybody around here bitches about this being a "cookie cutter mud". Then you go and make it so that one race is so far superior to every other race at a given class, that it would be stupid to play another race because you would be at a severe disadvantage.

See my last comment. Try rolling an ogre warrior and leveling him up and compare. Not that much difference, since we both know warrior damage sucks.
thanuk wrote:At least when evils and goods were separate, you had the whole "hardships of evil" sob story to explain away why trolls have better con, agility, and natural regen. You could tell people it was okay that a yuan-ti cleric will pray spells faster than every other race in the game, because they have to live in a hard hometown and would have less players to play with. Hell, on the flipside, you could tell all those illithids that it was too bad that they sucked compared to druids, but it didn't matter; all the evils would have to group with them anyway because they weren't allowed to group with druids. Now what do you tell them? Sorry your character is inferior to a human druid in every aspect of the game, but uhh, you have really shitty mana and no hit points either, so its okay?

You obviously have no clue how fast squids recover mana.
thanuk wrote:Look, im sorry that you guys were such unbearable pricks that nobody wanted to play with you. It sucks. They want to make it easy on you guys, give you humans to fill in for all the people you scared away with your squabbling and bullshit? Great. I hope you have a great time zoning again. But now that you can group with humans, and you're hometowns are nice and fluffy, and you can level to 50 without even leaving the friggin drow city, why do you still have better innates and better stats? What is so hard about being an evilrace character these days that they deserve to be better at everything?

There is nothing; all your weaknesses have been nerfed to make your side more "user friendly". Well that's terrific for you. But now that being an evil is just as easy as being a goodie, there's no justification that your characters have superior stats and innates. None whatsoever. And I just want to know if that is going to be addressed, or if it's tough shit for the rest of us, who now have inferior characters just because we weren't big enough dicks to make everyone stop wanting to group with us. If that's the case, then i'll just start being a real asshole, until nobody wants to group with me and they upgrade my race/class combo as well.

Don't blame me for actions of a few others. Not all of us are assholes. And you can't level to 50 in DK unless you're REALLY bored. It's only good for newbie/mid level. Every evil who wants to level to 50 hits the exact same spots goodies do: DS, Smoke, Ship, Tower.

And I've heard squabbling on the goodie side too, hell a LOT more of it in fact. I don't get how you can use this as a valid argument for anything. There's bad apples on both sides and you know it. What bugs me is that most goodies still hang this "Cherzra was a dick, Lazz too" over our heads when one is banned and the other one logs on maybe once every six months. Life goes on, and we've moved on past that. If you don't like someone's attitude you gotta put up with it on the evil side, because frankly it's that or do nothing but sit in DK. Seriously dude, roll up an evil or a human and zone with us. It's NOT as bad as you think.

Deathmagnet
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:45 pm

But he does make a good point about how you guys don't really have to face all the hardships you used to, so there's not much reason for you to be that different from goodraces.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:51 pm

Yasden wrote:Yeah because holy word does so much damage...ROFL.

Ok so bust out your goodie, and then go do SF with 2 dwarves to tank for you. When you get to the last room, and they both drop dead in a round, you can come tell me about all the damage that holy word doesn't do.

thanuk wrote:I was on at 11:30 pm eastern last night. I did a who 40 warrior sort. There was 8 level 40 or higher warriors on, 4 were trolls(yourself, gura, 2 guys I dont know too well), 2 were barbarians(me and moltok), 2 were dwarves(stamm and crumar). Then i did a who ungrouped sort and there were 4...2 dwarves, and 2 barbarians. That's pretty direct. Why was that the case? Because there was only 1 goodrace enchanter on who had dragonscales, and he was grouped with you guys.

I didn't know Qazap and Vikaz were human...we only had 1 human with us last night, and he has a scaler alt. That what you're talking about?
[/quote]
There, I bolded out the word goodrace for you. Its like shouting at an immigrant i know, but go read it again.
Yasden wrote:
thanuk wrote:#1 you shouldn't offer your condolences, as after seeing your afk skills in zones i think you should roll a cleric.

God forbid some of us have a RL and have to deal with kids and a WOMAN. What race cleric should I roll? Human? >:)

Hey man, I don't care if you AFK, I'm uberl33t so I can cover for you. But you know what they say about people in glass houses...(aside from that they should f**k with the lights off)
Yasden wrote:
thanuk wrote:#2 its not about being a tank, its about having to share enchanters and clerics with evilrace groups. Now im the enchanter, and i say hrm...i can group with the goodies or the evils. The evils have better stats, more powerful characters, they mem faster, their tanks have better hps and agility. The goodies mem slower, die easier, and have less powerful characters. Who should I pick to group with? That's not a real hard question.

There's plenty of clerics and enchanters to go around. I've seen you guys have 3 full groups going simultaneously, so don't feed me that crap. Having innates and bonuses doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't ever zone. It's not like we go around stealing your zones (waits for the ancient SPoB incident comment).

No, no there isn't. There hasn't been for a while. I dunno when the last time you saw 3 full groups going at once, because last time I saw that was sojourn 3. And like I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, I'm all for you guys being able to zone. I just don't think you should be given better tools for it than us when you no longer have any disadvantages.
Yasden wrote:
thanuk wrote:#3 I'm not "whining about being a tank" you pussy. My complaint, as it were, is that evilrace characters still have superior racial benefits, along the lines of innates and stat modifiers, but they no longer have any of the drawbacks that used to justify those racial benefits. It's bullshit, and you know it is, you just benefit from it so you don't want them to change it. I can understand that, but it still doesn't change the point. Everybody around here bitches about this being a "cookie cutter mud". Then you go and make it so that one race is so far superior to every other race at a given class, that it would be stupid to play another race because you would be at a severe disadvantage.

See my last comment. Try rolling an ogre warrior and leveling him up and compare. Not that much difference, since we both know warrior damage sucks.

Well that's the point, now isn't it? Now you can zone. So the racial benefits do matter.
Yasden wrote:Don't blame me for actions of a few others. Not all of us are assholes. And you can't level to 50 in DK unless you're REALLY bored. It's only good for newbie/mid level. Every evil who wants to level to 50 hits the exact same spots goodies do: DS, Smoke, Ship, Tower.

And I've heard squabbling on the goodie side too, hell a LOT more of it in fact. I don't get how you can use this as a valid argument for anything. There's bad apples on both sides and you know it. What bugs me is that most goodies still hang this "Cherzra was a dick, Lazz too" over our heads when one is banned and the other one logs on maybe once every six months. Life goes on, and we've moved on past that. If you don't like someone's attitude you gotta put up with it on the evil side, because frankly it's that or do nothing but sit in DK. Seriously dude, roll up an evil or a human and zone with us. It's NOT as bad as you think.

Deathmagnet


Hey guess what? It's not my fault that Cherzra was an asshole either. But I'm the one being punished for it. And whatever squabbling you heard on the goodie side, it was never enough to drive away so many people that we can no longer play without borrowing evilrace characters, so there must be some kind of difference.

You know what else? I don't want to roll up an evil human and group with you, any more than you guys wanted to roll up goodies and group with us. And you shouldn't have had to do that, which is why this change happened. But I shouldn't have to do it either, which is why i think they should downgrade your racial benefits, and level the playing field between the two sides.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ensis » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:54 pm

Evils have always been more powerful than goodies. They've had better stat adjustments, better innates, etc. If everyone was playing for sheer power, truthfully they should be evils. I think the only huge detriment to this decision is the fact that Yuan-ti's are losing their purpose as the Evilraces only option to illusionist. Maybe you coders could look into making them a lot more badass..their description plays them up to be pretty buff, and i don't think the innates represent.

(can't remember which way it went, think its all neutral/evil humans can group with evilrace rite? if so keep readin, if not i suck)

As far as humans being able to share? How many humans do you see out there? Anti's and Human druids, and Human bards are the only thing that pose a threat of upsetting any balance, the question is, do they really? Would the evils forsake a PSI because there was a druid with moonwell? I don't think so. A bard is cool, but the battlechanter isn't going to lose his job over it. Anti's will be a fun addition for them.

I think if anything this will give more motivation to playing humans. How many human's do you see playing any class besides those their relegated to?.. I think the majority of the human population is anti/pally, with a few rangers rounding up the mix.

Guess we'll have to see how it goes, i think its cool though. Good for evil pbase, good for the entirety of the pbase, and could change the demographic from all but human to more humans.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:56 pm

Thanuk, enough sour grapes. Would your panties be in less of a bind if you could group with me too?

Are you griping because goodies can group with evils? Or because only certain goodies can group with evils? Or are you just griping to gripe?
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:05 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:Thanuk, enough sour grapes. Would your panties be in less of a bind if you could group with me too?

Are you griping because goodies can group with evils? Or because only certain goodies can group with evils? Or are you just griping to gripe?


No, not at all. I think its good that humans can group with evilraces, because you guys cant zone without it. Here's a few highlights from my other posts in the thread, that you obviously didn't read, you lazy, lazy bastard.

Thanuk wrote:For every good race, there exists an evil race who can play the same class and be better off in doing so, right from the start, except for paladins, but who cares about paladins. This used to be justified in that evils were #1 harder, and #2 had less people to group with. Those justifications no longer stand.

Are you going to tone down the racial modifiers on the evil side? Lower the effectiveness of their innate abilities? Do something to compensate for the fact that a barbarian warrior, or a grey elf rogue, or good aligned human cleric is completely underpowered and hold no advantage over other race/class combos? Or should I fire up the statbot and start rolling a troll?


Thanuk wrote:But now that you can group with humans, and you're hometowns are nice and fluffy, and you can level to 50 without even leaving the friggin drow city, why do you still have better innates and better stats? What is so hard about being an evilrace character these days that they deserve to be better at everything?


So in case that didn't make it abundantly clear, one more time:

The complaint is that evilraces are innately better characters then goodraces playing the same class. This was intentionally developed as part of the mud, and has never been a secret. The justification for it has always been that evil races were harder to play. Evil races are no longer harder to play. Why are they still innately better characters than goodraces?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Cordan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:11 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I'm reading, if the mud were to remove all racial/align grouping restrictions, then the pbase would drastically swing towards evil races because they are innately and naturally stronger?
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Postby Yasden » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:15 pm

Ultravision - Illithids, Drow, Duergar
Double Fire Damage - Trolls
Missing EQ slots - Yuan-ti
Average (human) stats - Orcs

Which means only ogres would have no weaknesses. Oh wait, they're stupid as hell which means their shamans suck for INT/WIS. I have one.

These are serious disadvantages. Sure trolls can tank somethin wicked but if someone doesn't silence the mentalist or druid mob we get owned in 1 spell.

Dayblind can only be countered with a few spells (from classes which we have hardly any of - elementalists/illusionists/enchanters), or illithids (another rarity). And it's still a pain moving groups through daylight with a squid leading them. Not to mention having to mem out during fights.

Yuan-ti missing several eq slots means a lot less options for maxint/wis and hps...not to mention prot eq.

Orcs only have a few options for classes, and average human stats.

Ogres may have the best str/con, but they flat-out suck as tanks and shamans both, unless you're out for the hps or melee damage.

I'm not gonna argue about this anymore because you're hell-bent on trying to bring a good thing down when we haven't even had a chance to try it on for size.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:21 pm

Yasden wrote:
I'm not gonna argue about this anymore because you're hell-bent on trying to bring a good thing down when we haven't even had a chance to try it on for size.


Wtf are you talking about? I haven't said anything about changing back. Are you just assuming what my argument is about without reading it?
Last edited by thanuk on Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Cordan
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Postby Cordan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:21 pm

Yasden wrote:Which means only ogres would have no weaknesses. Oh wait, they're stupid as hell which means their shamans suck for INT/WIS. I have one.


Ogre warrior regen. They weren't lying about having patience with this. Sheesh.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:35 pm

This does have to do with the change, because you wouldn't have bitched about innates otherwise. An evil playerbase of 15-20 (at any given time)versus 75 goodies doesn't really seem like a complete upset of the balance to me.

Let's stop arguing about it on here. Send me a tell you wanker. :P
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:41 pm

Yasden wrote:This does have to do with the change, because you wouldn't have bitched about innates otherwise. An evil playerbase of 15-20 (at any given time)versus 75 goodies doesn't really seem like a complete upset of the balance to me.

Let's stop arguing about it on here. Send me a tell you wanker. :P


But I want everyone to be able to watch me pwn you over and over:(

Anyway, yeah, one more time so nobody is confused. I think the change was good. I just think there's a little more to it than just saying "Okay you can group with humans now"
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby icecillam » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:58 pm

thanuk wrote:The complaint is that evilraces are innately better characters then goodraces playing the same class. This was intentionally developed as part of the mud, and has never been a secret. The justification for it has always been that evil races were harder to play. Evil races are no longer harder to play. Why are they still innately better characters than goodraces?


Err, are the random paladin groups agro to evil goodraced char?
Does the stuff in scourn jump you also? What about cp? When was the last time you walked through vines?

I'm sure there are little things i've forgotten also, that involve creating a corpse if your just trying to get from point a to b.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:00 pm

Someone said something to the effect that a human druid wouldn't hang out (group) with a troll. As someone who's never played AD&D, why not? If being a druid is believing in 'balance' then the same logic seems to me that a druid wouldn't hang around a paladin just the same. I think the idea is really good.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:03 pm

icecillam wrote:
Err, are the random paladin groups agro to evil goodraced char?

They're aggro to me.
icecillam wrote:Does the stuff in scourn jump you also? What about cp? When was the last time you walked through vines?

Yes. No. 2 days ago.
icecillam wrote:I'm sure there are little things i've forgotten also, that involve creating a corpse if your just trying to get from point a to b.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:15 pm

thanuk wrote:
icecillam wrote:I'm sure there are little things i've forgotten also, that involve creating a corpse if your just trying to get from point a to b.


Taken a stroll through TB lately? Times, they are a'changin'.
Guw
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GH assassin

Postby Guw » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:31 pm

One of my favourite corpse generators is the rare load assassin than pops in Gloomhaven occasionally.

Damn he can create a pile of corpses fast!
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Postby Kelemvor » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:35 pm

Last night thanuk, when you petitoned that goodie warriors were delegated to being 3w guardians, I and several other gods checked the composition of the groups currently zoning to find out if goodies had really been screwed.


At the time you petitioned the evils were zoning without a SINGLE human in thier group. They were all evils, and yet you were complaining about no groups for goodies, though there were 60-70 goodies on. It's possible you should try harder, or lead some groups yourself instead of wasting your time complaining on the boards.
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Postby Ssryth » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:38 pm

Thilindel wrote:Someone said something to the effect that a human druid wouldn't hang out (group) with a troll. As someone who's never played AD&D, why not? If being a druid is believing in 'balance' then the same logic seems to me that a druid wouldn't hang around a paladin just the same. I think the idea is really good.


hmm this got me thinking.. a druid seeks to maintain or restore balance.. if the "good aligned" players were running rampant, then they might well form a temporary alliance with evils to restore balance... and vice versa..

uhm reiterating some points.. this change is good in general for the evil populus, but i suspect it will spell the downfall for snake casters - illus/necros/liches .. mentalists are still way cool :D. Given that all human necros/liches are evil, what's the reason to play a snake now? (5 eq slots + better base hp VS slightly better mem times)

Ssryth.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:43 pm

Just a random question:

Uh, when was the last time you've seen a mob cloud?

I think I've eaten 1 maybe 2 in the last 10 zones I've run in. Why? mobs are sandblasting, ,thunderbolting, prising, etc.

This whole "oh woah is me, I'm a troll and take more fire damage" is a load of crap =P Mobs just don't cloud like they used to so this extra fire damage stuff rarely comes into play.

Anyway, I don't care either way. Unless we get more people playing on a whole it dont matter what happens. If we could add elves take double damage from fire and get troll innates, I'd be all for it. Hell, I'd take it even with my 428 hps. Thats how often I see a cloud =P

Lost
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:45 pm

drow vs grey i choose grey unless im a warrior then id choose drow cept drow are ultra so i choose gray

duegar vs dwarf i choose dwarf cept duegar get innate invis and strength which would be nice for dragging except they are blind and a cleric/war cant heal or rescue when they are blind so i choose dwarf

ogre vs barbarian vs dwarf. as a tank dwarf or barbarian as a hitter rogue. As a shaman barbarian or orc unless i was a big solor then i might choose ogre for the doorbash and being harder to bash.. then again those mem times really suck.

troll vs barbarian vs dwarf. barbarian or dwarf unless its my first char and i just wanted to get to 50 as fast as possible.

but you know like stats really matter. folks gonna group whomever they like and that has always been the case. if you dont get groups maybe you should look at the real reason.

All the evil races have strenghts and weaknesses except for orcs. I would say that most evil races are very powerful in certain situations and very limited in others. The thing is players stack the odds in their favor and use as many of their strenghts as possible without exposing their weaknesses. For every situation where they are "more powerful" there is a situation where they are very limited.

It would be funny to open the grouping up all the way and in 1 year look back and see what really happened. I think you would see a lot less evil race characters particularly of the ultra variety.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Sarkhon » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:51 pm

Yasden wrote:Yeah because holy word does so much damage...ROFL.


Laugh, wasn't it just one week ago that you and the whine brigade (a/k/a the antipaladin "community" of twinked-out alts) were calling for Ambran downgrades because of the unfair damage produced by holy word? It's cute how you guys repeatedly twist the facts to benefit yourselves, and even sadder how some people with influence appear dumb enough to listen. This whole thread makes me sick to my stomach.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:01 pm

Waelos wrote:Just a random question:

Uh, when was the last time you've seen a mob cloud?

I think I've eaten 1 maybe 2 in the last 10 zones I've run in. Why? mobs are sandblasting, ,thunderbolting, prising, etc.

This whole "oh woah is me, I'm a troll and take more fire damage" is a load of crap =P Mobs just don't cloud like they used to so this extra fire damage stuff rarely comes into play.


ya cloud doesnt get cast as often, but heres the thing, why take a whole group of tanks with the same weakness. I'd much rather have consistent performance than every once in a while have 3 tanks die cuz a cloud went off. I'd rather not even see 1 tank die. Evil groups work like this, cloud goes off, 2 fulls on the main tank 1 troll dies, seconed cloud goes off all the trolls die except the main tank cuz he gets 2 more fulls.

Waelos wrote:Anyway, I don't care either way. Unless we get more people playing on a whole it dont matter what happens. If we could add elves take double damage from fire and get troll innates, I'd be all for it. Hell, I'd take it even with my 428 hps. Thats how often I see a cloud =P

Lost


lol. thats funny. you would die every time an area went off. I vote we give waelos his wish.

also, i think its important to realize the mud is heavy on the spell prevention side. If you actually had to eat spells as a zone group more often without the luxury of fleeing, you'd see the weaknesses more clearly.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!

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