If this becomes permanent...

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:02 pm

Thilindel wrote:Someone said something to the effect that a human druid wouldn't hang out (group) with a troll. As someone who's never played AD&D, why not? If being a druid is believing in 'balance' then the same logic seems to me that a druid wouldn't hang around a paladin just the same. I think the idea is really good.


Druids wouldn't hang out with trolls because trolls, orcs and goblins are, by nature, very destructive, with very little respect for forests.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:06 pm

Kelemvor wrote:Last night thanuk, when you petitoned that goodie warriors were delegated to being 3w guardians, I and several other gods checked the composition of the groups currently zoning to find out if goodies had really been screwed.

Ok it was 1w, I was just busting balls, and every goodrace warrior over level 40 was standing there. I just thought it was funny. I dunno when you guys started taking me seriously anyway, but its nice to know that once in a while you do.


Kelemvor wrote:At the time you petitioned the evils were zoning without a SINGLE human in thier group. They were all evils, and yet you were complaining about no groups for goodies, though there were 60-70 goodies on. It's possible you should try harder, or lead some groups yourself instead of wasting your time complaining on the boards.


So then they don't really need to be able to group with humans then, since they can obviously get groups themselves! (ok i dont even really mean that, but you had to see it coming)

As for leading some groups for myself, I do that from time to time, but I often get shut down from lack of chanter/cleric. It's also not very convenient to lead as a warrior, particularly one without infravision, but I wouldn't want to waste my time on the boards complaining about that. And I don't even consider it a waste of time really, because I only post on the board from work, and I can't mud from there, so really I'm just wasting the time that other people paid for. So in essence, I do get paid to complain.

And like I said in the first place, this wasn't supposed to be a flame. Much like any other thread I start, it just kinda degenerates into that somewhere along the way. It was really just a question: Will evil race innates and stat modifiers be adjusted, should this change become permanent? I won't be expecting an answer, because you've made fairly clear what that answer will be.
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Postby Marforp » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:07 am

At some level everyone must realize that the long term affect of this change would be different then the long term affect. Good or bad I'll let others decide, but more human druids/invokers/etc... will be created. Are there reasons to be a gnome instead of a human? Sure, but there is also a advantage (a large one if you aren't well known) to create a character that can be grouped with pretty much anyone on the mud.

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Postby Vahok » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:43 am

The only things I have a problem with is the fact that neutrals can group with evils. And the only reason for that is the druid part. Yes, I know there is a small number of human druids, but I think it doesn't fit from a fantasy or RP point of view. Maybe the solution is some sort of warlock or dark druid class for the evils (duegar or orc?)...

Also, the innate thing kinda burns me a touch (Thanuk and others have posted plenty of the reasons why I think this way..) Seems like evils are the far superior races to be but I could be wrong. Mind you, I'm coming from the evil barb perspective so I face some (not all) of the difficulties that troll and ogre warriors face.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:10 am

Any other rangers laughing at this thread? I know I am.

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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:36 am

thanuk wrote:Here's a few highlights from my other posts in the thread, that you obviously didn't read, you lazy, lazy bastard.


I read it, but since it wasn't funny I ignored it. You talking serious is like actors or musicans talking politics. DONT DO IT!

Thanuk wrote:Why are they still innately better characters than goodraces?


Asking for the nerf stick now? Stick to mom jokes and bashing taco bell employees.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:38 am

Ssryth wrote:
Thilindel wrote:Someone said something to the effect that a human druid wouldn't hang out (group) with a troll. As someone who's never played AD&D, why not? If being a druid is believing in 'balance' then the same logic seems to me that a druid wouldn't hang around a paladin just the same. I think the idea is really good.


hmm this got me thinking.. a druid seeks to maintain or restore balance.. if the "good aligned" players were running rampant, then they might well form a temporary alliance with evils to restore balance... and vice versa..


A druid seeks to maintain or restore the balance of nature vs. civilization, not good vs. evil. They simply don't care enough about traditional morality, they're neutral because they're indifferent to it. But they still won't get along with races known for destroying forests, overhunting for food, and killing woodland creatures which basically means all the evil races here except for yuan-ti and illithids.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:00 am

thanuk wrote:Hell, on the flipside, you could tell all those illithids that it was too bad that they sucked compared to druids, but it didn't matter; all the evils would have to group with them anyway because they weren't allowed to group with druids. Now what do you tell them? Sorry your character is inferior to a human druid in every aspect of the game, but uhh, you have really shitty mana and no hit points either, so its okay?


Yes, psis are FAR inferior to druids (hahahahaha what are you smoking)

thanuk wrote:Look, im sorry that you guys were such unbearable pricks that nobody wanted to play with you.


Actually, Turg decided that he needed money more than ANSI, I went to college in Cali (Dartan phone me already o my god), and all the rest of CC are doing SCA stuff all the time (except for Tod, he's plotting to take over the world)

thanuk wrote:But now that you can group with humans, and you're hometowns are nice and fluffy, and you can level to 50 without even leaving the friggin drow city, why do you still have better innates and better stats?


Have you been taking lessons from Sindarin?
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Postby Wobb » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:55 am

It's funny to take a long break and come back to look at this with a fresh eye:

This does nothing to affect game play. Here is the problem: this mud has since opening day been moving towards creating an atmosphere where people are "required" to group in order to achieve certain items.

Enough crap has happened that people have stopped playing and all the warnings people tried to make...have finally come true. And now we are back to goodies being allowed to group with humans.

It's just history repeating itself, soon there will be artifacts, and then there will be a pwipe. If you look at the long term, this is all stuff that has happened before.

Honestly, I don't see one hella difference its gonna make....people are still people, if they want stuff, they will group to get it. One minor change doesn't "make another class useless", its all about choices. Hell, you could let anyone group with anyone and it wouldn't make any difference, except for who decides to walk over whom.

Targsk makes a good point about holding shit over our heads from previous leaders. They are gone....whatever view of evils you have had in your head for the last 2 years is SKEWED. Get over it, I'm tired of reading about it from people who don't ZONE with evils. Yes that means you can't just have an evil to gripe, you have to have laid down yan or gone to Bronze citadel with evils to know WTF i'm talking about.

People look at your game and consider what is going on; its a game, things change, things will never be balanced, get a grip, get a group and stop the griping. Everyone I see whining on these boards has the most and best equipment. You patheticize yourselves.

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Postby Sarell » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:43 am

I can't believe how many people are arguing that evils are weak. You know your kidding yourselves right? And ultravision a hardship?!?!! ROFL....

Anyhow, the point still stands that you are creating a temp fix at the moment to stem a problem that isn't code / game related. It could get way out of hand down the track when the pendullum swings. Um sure there arn't human druids so much now, but I know I woulda made a human over a half elf if when I started had I known I would be able to group with anyone in the game.

Laugh kelemvor, you say there was evil zoning groups and no good ones? NUTS, better make squids and orcs be able to group with good chars for a few weeks?

I think it is still a good step. But at the moment it is only a bonus for evils, and a reduction for some good chars. Apparently some evils who think they will be replaced by humans are getting the sharp end of the stick aswell? I agree with the perception that it needs to be significantly more complicated than the 'oky !good humans can group with evil kthxbye'. Perhaps some possible restrictions;

1 - Group with evil, you are hardcoded outcast, with all the old trimming plus no longer able to group with elf / dorf. Making evil outcast humans more of a go between like old necro and antiplaadins instead of supreme beings.
2 - Neutral Human will not group with underdark races
3 - Introduce feedback for both ultrablast & ultrablast and Ultra/Doom
4 - Make underdark race !well.

....just some ideas to make it more sensible
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Postby belleshel » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:15 pm

I hate bandaids. Outcasting makes more sense then the current move *imho*.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:30 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:Have you been taking lessons from Sindarin?


What are you, like Ragorn's evil twin from an alternate dimension? The retirement home is 2 sections up, in the General Discussion area.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:40 pm

Well, I have to say that I agree that there are some racial modifiers to the evil side that give them a definite advantage. I don' think they're overpowered, but that's the way it shoudl be. Afterall, the immortals were making efforts to ensure that balance was key. With that in mind it doesn't SEEM overpowered for humans to join them because they don't have those modifiers.

However, the only thing that goodies had over evils was numbers and druids (there were other classes, but they didn't seem to present a clear advantage). The druid problem is partially fixed. Are druids more poweful than illithids? I think so, but I also think they're not as destructive as illithids. Transport w/some damage and massive utility (druids) vs transport w/massive damage and some utility (illithids). Makes sense since it seems that druids are more intent on balance than destruction and psis would love to destroy things, but whatever.

The evils were pretty much going on before about how much faster they did zones or how much better they did zones (with no tactics) and they still welcome this change. Then they come back and say that they have no real advantages. It seems to me that this would point to an idea that they must be much better players than the goodies on the opposite side. That seems odd to me.

Why just humans? Seems a troll would be just as likely to BBQ a human as a gnome or elf. Yeah, elf would probably never group with troll, but there have been some pretty evil freak'in evil gnomes and some demeted dwarves and maybe even some twisted elves. the RP arugment doesn't seem to hold up all that awesome. Uneasy alliances can be formed between any two races in the end.

I haven't been around enough since the change to monitor group behavior to say one way or another about the change, but some things seem odd about it.
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Postby Rausrh » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:37 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Druids wouldn't hang out with trolls because trolls, orcs and goblins are, by nature, very destructive, with very little respect for forests.

Of course Trolls live in a primative swamp/swampy forest where as humans 'pave' over vast areas of land and forest to make WD? I think that humans are more destructive in nature to nature than Trolls who live in harmony with nature, as long as that nature isn't a gnome.

...mmm, tasty gnomes...

I think druids should want to hang with trolls more so than Humans.
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trolls

Postby Guw » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:51 pm

As I understand it trolls were the original conservationalists.. the term 'greenie' actually came from the grey-green colouration of a typical trolls skin :)
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Postby Stamm » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:55 pm

Trolls are wildlife :P
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Postby Guw » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:09 pm

If trolls are wildlife..

..druids should protect us!

:)
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Postby Treladian » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:14 am

Rausrh wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Druids wouldn't hang out with trolls because trolls, orcs and goblins are, by nature, very destructive, with very little respect for forests.

Of course Trolls live in a primative swamp/swampy forest where as humans 'pave' over vast areas of land and forest to make WD? I think that humans are more destructive in nature to nature than Trolls who live in harmony with nature, as long as that nature isn't a gnome.

...mmm, tasty gnomes...

I think druids should want to hang with trolls more so than Humans.


Trolls and ogres don't "live in harmony" with nature, they throw the predator-prey balance out of whack. They don't cut down trees for shelter, but they eat everything from grubs to bears and extremely few natural predators can kill them, much less keep their population in check. The monster manual basically describes their lairing and hunting habits as plopping down near a populated area and hunting the inhabitants until they devour every last one. Trolls and ogres basically are a combination of poacher and imported pest to a druid because of this, but much more dangerous than something like a bunch of mussels clogging up riverbeds.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:22 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:Actually, Turg decided that he needed money more than ANSI, I went to college in Cali (Dartan phone me already o my god), and all the rest of CC are doing SCA stuff all the time (except for Tod, he's plotting to take over the world)



Huh? I thought u were in Singapore still. You're in cali now?
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:43 am

Ashiwi and Treladian are both right. And as a druid I hate humans too because of their ways, farms, natureless towns, clear cutting, etc. I associate with humans reluctantly because there aren't enough elves to battle those creatures even worse than humans. Things like the undead that are true abominations. I hope one day to find a way of eliminating the human race from Toril.

Who ever it was comparing ogres to goodie tanks is quite amusing. enlarge ogres can bash giants etc, stuff that no goodie race can. They are far far from tanks. They hit like trucks too, not sure how they compare to rogues for damage but they might be good for that?
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Postby Hyldryn » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:49 am

I thought enlarged+embodied ogres still can't bash giants. Headbutt, maybe.
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Postby Gura » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:48 am

they cant bash giants. headbutt yea...but so can a troll with enlarge and i bet barbarians can too.
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Postby thanuk » Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:09 am

Gura wrote:they cant bash giants. headbutt yea...but so can a troll with enlarge and i bet barbarians can too.


Not giants, but firbolgs.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:11 pm

Probably based on the giants level, if the giant is low enough level ogres can bash it. I have heard people talk about ogres being able to bash races no one else can, not sure which they were referring to. And I expect some support on my human eradication plans, down with humans!
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Postby rylan » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:16 pm

Don't make me help the mob next time it switches to you!
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Postby Gura » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:48 pm

Lilithelle wrote:Probably based on the giants level, if the giant is low enough level ogres can bash it. I have heard people talk about ogres being able to bash races no one else can, not sure which they were referring to. And I expect some support on my human eradication plans, down with humans!
Lil - Elf Powa!


dont think it has anything to do with level. i'd say its more a matter of size. ogres can bash effreeti djinns and janns. prolly a couple more but i bet thats what u heard.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:49 pm

Actually, level does matter when it comes to giant's size. I was able to actually bash a frost giant commoner in jot palace by using enlarge/embody/+height/+weight eq. Now granted they're only level 25, so it makes sense.

I've been watching the banter about druids and neutrality and actually, civilization itself has more of an impact upon the wilderness than any of the evils ever would, in an RP sense. Neutrality isn't just about "the balance" either. There's 3 versions of neutrality...lawful/chaotic/true neutral, and druids aren't ever lawful of any alignment.

If you ever read some of the info on the deities that have druid worshipers, not all of them are true neutral alignment (which is what you guys are thinking they're supposed to be). In fact, there's druids of good, neutral, AND evil alignment. They believe in the preservation of the wilderness, and while some wholeheartedly support the destruction of civilization (Silvanite druids - Chaotic Neutral), there are some who simply hate other forest dwelling demihumans (Malarite druids - Chaotic Evil - hate elves with a passion). Others, in fact, don't care about the woods at all, and in fact seek to keep their part of the "wilderness" intact by maintaining agriculture (Chauntean Druids - Neutral Good).

The same goes for rangers, Treladian. There's neutral/evil rangers as well. Try to look outside the box and realize that the only reason these align restricts were put on rangers/druids were for game balance issues, and that their innates/spells were hardcoded too. Same works for necromancers too, and anyone worth their salt knows there's neutral and good aligned necromancers (a lot of new Kelemvorites, for example).

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Postby moritheil » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:19 pm

Sarkhon wrote:
Yasden wrote:Yeah because holy word does so much damage...ROFL.


Laugh, wasn't it just one week ago that you and the whine brigade (a/k/a the antipaladin "community" of twinked-out alts) were calling for Ambran downgrades because of the unfair damage produced by holy word? It's cute how you guys repeatedly twist the facts to benefit yourselves, and even sadder how some people with influence appear dumb enough to listen. This whole thread makes me sick to my stomach.


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Postby Treladian » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:26 pm

Yasden wrote:The same goes for rangers, Treladian. There's neutral/evil rangers as well. Try to look outside the box and realize that the only reason these align restricts were put on rangers/druids were for game balance issues, and that their innates/spells were hardcoded too. Same works for necromancers too, and anyone worth their salt knows there's neutral and good aligned necromancers (a lot of new Kelemvorites, for example).


Actually, the real reason these align restricts are in is because they existed in 1st and 2nd edition D&D rules. 3rd Edition offers much more freedom of course, but we're ONLY dealing with 2nd edition versions of druids and rangers on this mud.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:50 am

I don't care what 3rd book says, some of those druid ideas are loonie! Druids should protect nature, what humans do is an abomination of nature. Farms are sterile environments where just one kind of plant lives and wild animals and insects are discouraged, except maybe bees. And farm animals are bastardizations of the wild creatures they once were. Yes they accept that good and evil, order and chaos are part of nature. Evil battles good, good battles evil, part of the cosmic order. But they're wise enough to realize that these are struggles that can never be resolved and thus are pointless. As the forces of order and chaos are manifestations of the universe, to embrace one or the other is to deny the other part of the universe.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:17 am

Dalar wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:Actually, Turg decided that he needed money more than ANSI, I went to college in Cali (Dartan phone me already o my god), and all the rest of CC are doing SCA stuff all the time (except for Tod, he's plotting to take over the world)



Huh? I thought u were in Singapore still. You're in cali now?


Been in Cali since September fool! (Don't call me till 2004 tho, no phone here in AZ)
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Postby Yasden » Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:44 am

Sarkhon...dude...what in the hell? You're bringing up another thread that has nothing to do with what we're talking about in an effort to slam the credibility of my statements? Oh and by the by, I think the real whine brigade is all the twinked out paladin alts with their avengers. Just look at the new avenger downgrade thread. :)

You go back and read the deathknell vs. avenger thread and you won't see me complaining about holy word at all. I was complaining about the rate of the avenger heal proc and the difficulty of the quest was all.

If you're not going to post anything constructive besides trying to flame me and totally throwing this thread off-topic, then why bother posting? I post occasionally with my opinion and I try to make constructive ideas instead of just screaming foul when something's not right, so now you're pissed at me because I was actually right about the heal rate being too much? Whatever dude.

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Postby Ambar » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:38 am

I personally don't see a problem for the druids anyway .. i BELIEVE evil leaders will chose a squid over a druid anyway .... the druid cant lead the darkies around like squids do ...

also unsure about this and PLEASE dont take it wrong but the human druids arent as recognized as the elf are ... thus they probably wouldnt zone with evils anyway, exceptions always will be allowed for ...(not that they are any less good they are just not as well known)
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:41 am

As I see it, if this change does become permanent, about 4 things become obvious.

1. No reason to roll a battlechanter. Bards are arguably a better class with their spell list and the fact that almost all psp eq is geared towards mages, and battlechanters cant wear that. As well, human charisma/intelligence is surely superior to orcs.

2. Evils just gained access to druids. That's going to give evils a definite advantage in big fights due to significantly increased area damage, as well as the increased utility AND teleportation (can well/hole/shift all at once to get together etc).

3. Why roll anything but a human caster? Human casters as a combo are decent enough, and at high levels, the increased intelligence/wisdom of elves or gnomes or dorfs or snakes isn't going to make much of a difference when compared to the fact that you have access to all parts of the game, instead of just one half.

4. Why play a paladin except to RP? You're barely wanted in a group, and a warrior is often wanted first. You cant group with half the mud but anti-paladins can. You cant solo more than the average mage can. You're basically Rangers, the second coming.

Anywho, thankfully this is just a Trial change *cough* and will be removed by Monday.*coughcough*
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:09 am

Or this is a try 1.0 to get this working. Just because its not perfect doesn't mean the whole idea should be scrapped. It still seems an aweful lot like sour grapes complaining about what evils get and goods don't.

My only issues with good vs evils in transport spells is that evils can easily get people into clouds and the fire embody fight with scorxariam. Unfortunately both are prime plane but not wellable, yet are shiftable. So to get people in goods have to have them gated to smoke then fish them off smoke. Much slower. And for clouds its not so important an issue,but for the fire embody fight where its a time limited fight and there are lots of full healing mobs you just don't have alot of time to mess around with transportation. But those can be fixed by changing those zones to be non-prime plane, not changing druids or illithids.

I really don't see much of a problem with humans grouping with evils, its not that hard to level up an evil if you want to group with them and not play human. Or level up a 2nd character thats human, I know a level 50 human enchanter so tired of human mem times he's going to the trouble of leveling up an elven enchanter. I usually pick people to group with not by their race but by their personality, but if I did pick people to group with by race I wouldn't group with humans. Whenever I lead zones, they're the last ones to stand up after finishing memming.
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:18 am

Ok, well you have to also keep in mind folks that humans have a history playing on the goodie side. Evils have the disadvantage of not having known all the humans, nor do humans hang out in dk withevils, we hang in waterdeep with goodies. Yes we now have an opption of grouping with evils. but for most part we stick to the goodies.
Despite this im sure humans well spend time with evils. but only when evils need people to fill groups they dont have, cause of course. why bring a human when ya have a much more powerful race you can take. humans = fill space
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Postby Yarash » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:28 am

Ashiwi wrote:...and we already know there were a lot more people playing here when there was a lot more to feel a sense of accomplishment over than there is now in this "kinder, gentler," and much easier version of Sojourn.


To state that the pbase has been declining over the years is correct, but I believe it is incorrect to imply that it is caused by any changes to sojourn's code, areas or staff. This decline in players has been experienced by the entire mud community, not just sojourn.

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Postby Gyrx » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:53 pm

Mitharx wrote:or how much better they did zones (with no tactics)


Just because we do fights balls out and don't use goodie tactics (commonly called twinking) doesn't mean evils don't use tactics.
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Postby Gyrx » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:59 pm

I love this addition, I've already got a level 20ish evil human cleric. But, I see no problem with removing the neutral human part, and making only evil humans groupable with all. Simple because all the balance issues with druids.
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Postby Gura » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:37 pm

shift is not faster than ghetto wells lili.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:46 pm

Gyrx wrote:
Mitharx wrote:or how much better they did zones (with no tactics)


Just because we do fights balls out and don't use goodie tactics (commonly called twinking) doesn't mean evils don't use tactics.


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Postby Lilithelle » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:14 am

Yes shifting is faster for getting people to the fire embody fight, getting back the dead is a complete pain cause they have no prot gas, prot fire, or fly. How it can be faster than the 3 shifts an illithid would need i don't know. Not a problem for getting the group to the zone, its only when people die so mana shouldn't be that much of a factor since they only need to get back one or two dead at a time.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:00 pm

One mans twink is another mans tactic ;)

Anyway, I was just curious as to how evils would feel about grouping with goodies who support the "twinking."

I suppose the bitching about it would go away if they could zone again (with this addition) so I suppose it doesn't matter. And I've seen goodies take pretty much all fights straight on at some time or another. If it's deemed too dangerous with who we have or what's been happening then we try a little strategy. I still think there is no need to apologize for that. Past instances of twinking have led to zone changes and all is good.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27 am

didn't say twink isn't a tactic, but really, those humans we bring along will just have to do it the way do it, or chances are they'll stop coming. I can't really see too many leaders changing the entire way we do most zones to fit those few humans that will zone with evils
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Postby Werg » Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:02 pm

Ok, in response to some of these posts, all I have to say is..... "Are you freaking serious!?"

Some of you people think there is only one reason to play a certain class/race. Ok, so everyone will roll the best overall class/race combo, and there will be no reason to play this or that class/race, yet everybody has different opinions of what that might be. "No reason to play battlechanter anymore, no reason to play goodie warrior anymore, etc. etc." Come on guys. This change wont 'overpower' eitherside, nor will it cause any one class/race to become obsolete. Many people play their class/race for RP reasons, believe it or not. And secondly, there are many zone's a goodie wont be able to go to with an evil group, and vice-versa.

Ok, I'm done.. I'd have more to say but I'm at work...... flame on! :P
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Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:08 pm

I dunno why you guys are still posting here, Kelemvor said they aren't going to change anythig to adjust humans grouping with evilrace(in so many words) so this thread has been handled(pet kossuth). Might as well just let it die:)
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Postby rylan » Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:20 pm

We're at Orange alert.
Continuing to post in this thread means the terrorists win.

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