Why humans being able to group with evils is not a big deal

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Why humans being able to group with evils is not a big deal

Postby Yarash » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:05 pm

Before I get to the point, I'd like to state that my own opinion is that humans don't belong in evilrace groups. However, that they are able to do it now does not bother me at all.

The reason humans being able to group with evils is not a big deal is handouts. There are not very many people who do not want to bid on equipment in zones. Offhand I can only think of two people, Nitania and Nilan. When humans who haven't played the evil side start grouping with evils, I am predicting right now that one of two things will happen:
Option A: Evils will handout the loot to their evil friends. The humans will stop grouping with evils.
Option B: Evil zone leaders will be less evil and adopt the goodie dice system.

I'm leaning more towards option A with my prediction, but who knows. If it isn't clear now, my point is that if the handout system isn't abandoned in groups with humans, the humans will probably tend to stay with their own kind.

Before everyone rushes to reply, I hereby acknowledge that there are evil zone leaders who dice loot.

- Mike
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Re: Why humans being able to group with evils is not a big d

Postby Gyrx » Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:39 pm

This is not a flame directed at anyone, just an explanation.

Yarash wrote:Option A: Evils will handout the loot to their evil friends. The humans will stop grouping with evils.


I'm going to comment on this little statement. Statements like this insult the work of all the major leaders and players on the evil side for the last 2+ years. People who read these comments and are uninformed on how the evil handout system truly works receive a very wrong interpretation on the system.

So, evil leaders simply hand out the loot to their evil friends, eh? And then that action forces all the goodies that tried evil to go back to the goodie side with some major sob story on how they never got things their first couple runs because other, more established players, who had done the zone with that leader over 20 times and still needed the item got it instead of them. Wa wa wa. Or how they thought they did such an awesome uber-l33t job, when the rest of hte group thought they sucked monkey poo, they should be given mad l00t, but instead were neglected.

Here's a scenario for you. Say said level 50 evil/neutral human is active on the goodie side, and will rarely zone with evils or if he does zone will bail out any second his guild or friends call. Say for some reason he's taken to SPOB and does his job as good as some other evil. By the evil handout system most people follow is the human going to get the gold item? Helllllll no, why? Because if that goodie gets it it's going to disappear and not benefit the evils.

See, to me and most leaders, we don't give a damn if you're friend or not. We just want to know that the spanky items we get are going to be active and benefit the evil population. The same goes if some well known evil that's everyones best buddy comes out of retirement for a couple zones, is he going to get the gold item? He's helped the evil population tons in the past! But, said retired person is going to disappear again, and the item won't help the evil population. Guarentee he won't get the item.

Now, if anyone is going to go and say that people stop playing evils because they don't get items becuase the evil's system hates them, they can just stfu. If you are somewhat active and perform your job well, you're gonna get the items. If you stop by once in a blue moon or think you did ok, when really you sucked and 10 other people in the group performed twice as well as you, then you're not going to get items :)

If anyone says otherwise, fact is you're a liar because this is how the system goes :)
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Postby Xolan » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm

Then there's ppl like me. I play a plethera of evil aligned/human chars. I could give a rats ass about eq one way or another, I just like the option of grouping with anyone of my choosing. There are a lot of good players on both side of Toril and I've had nothing but fun groupin with evils.. so what if I dont get something in zone, just pwning with evil race is fun enough.

*tip*
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Postby Shevarash » Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:27 pm

It occurs to me that the 'evil population' might be better helped not by handing out a piece of equipment to someone active, but inspiring somebody that's not so active to keep playing, by demonstrating that they, too, can be rewarded for their work.

Example: You hand out that nice SPOB item to an evil who plays constantly...what real difference does that make to the evil population? +1 dam? +5hp?

You bid it out and somebody new to the evils wins it, hey - they are now proud to wear that item, inspired to win more, and also feel indebted to help the people who lost the bid win one.

And if they don't win it, at least they know they had the chance, and they'll try again. That's what its all about - equal opportunity to be rewarded for your work. Anything less feels like discrimination and elitism. I'm not even going to point out the parallels to the real world, they should be obvious.


Just food for thought, and my opinion as a player - not a Forger. :)
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:05 pm

As along as I get all the loot its fine.
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:24 pm

I've barely seen the handout system since Turg poofed. I personally never much cared for it because whenever I was handed something, I felt guilty for getting it, even if I deserved it. I thought that whoever else I was in contention with at least deserved a shot. The upside to handouts is of course that hand-downs are more expected and therefore more people get eq. And hence the people who, dare I say, *deserve* the top end eq first, get it, and other people in the group still get decent eq instead of losing a dice and getting nothing.

That being said, whenever I lead, I dice, for that's just struck me as more fair. Plus nowadays there's a lot of times I dont like to hand down since, thanks to Mielikki and other area wanks, almost every mid-high item around is now a fugging quest item.

What's missing from Evils right now is people that actually enjoy leading and do it decently. Yesterday we had a really decent set of people on. Hell, there were 5 36+ evilrace clerics. But no one likes to herd the cats together and choose a real zone to do. And of course.. muspel and seelie were already done and ttf was in the process.. so there's 3/4 of the zones in the game all gone by the time enough evils turned up.
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Postby Stamm » Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:22 pm

I've worked with the handout system before, and at that time I much prefered it to the bidding system.... why?

Because I'd do 5-6 zones and only be able to use one item, I'd get that item. With the way bids are you have to bid in each zone, or bid for a guildie or a friend because the chances of you getting the one item you want are pretty small. Add to that, nobody values anything but the top item for a slot.

Handouts need a strong confident leader though, and one who isn't selfish. Because there will always be favouritism whines, leader worried about taking an item for themselves, worried about someone else getting the item, etc.

With no equipment leaving the game it's inevitable that people will only be able to use one or two items from a zone. And if you want zones to contain less quest items, then expect less quests. And I see no reason to go around calling the hard working staff here wanks. I do see enough reason to call you a whining bitch though.

I'd like to apologise for goodies doing zones too, perhaps we should check with evils first in case there's a miracle and you lot get your act together and want to do a zone, it'd be just selfish of us to do the zone if you might be able to do it sometime in a boot.

And yes there are only 4 zones on Toril.

Forget manscorpions, cave city, brass, clouds, air plane, fire plane, Meilech, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Myth Drannor, Avernus, BC, etc.
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Re: Why humans being able to group with evils is not a big d

Postby Teyaha » Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:47 pm

Gyrx wrote:This is not a flame directed at anyone, just an explanation.

Yarash wrote:Option A: Evils will handout the loot to their evil friends. The humans will stop grouping with evils.


I'm going to comment on this little statement. Statements like this insult the work of all the major leaders and players on the evil side for the last 2+ years. People who read these comments and are uninformed on how the evil handout system truly works receive a very wrong interpretation on the system.

So, evil leaders simply hand out the loot to their evil friends, eh? And then that action forces all the goodies that tried evil to go back to the goodie side with some major sob story on how they never got things their first couple runs because other, more established players, who had done the zone with that leader over 20 times and still needed the item got it instead of them. Wa wa wa. Or how they thought they did such an awesome uber-l33t job, when the rest of hte group thought they sucked monkey poo, they should be given mad l00t, but instead were neglected.

Here's a scenario for you. Say said level 50 evil/neutral human is active on the goodie side, and will rarely zone with evils or if he does zone will bail out any second his guild or friends call. Say for some reason he's taken to SPOB and does his job as good as some other evil. By the evil handout system most people follow is the human going to get the gold item? Helllllll no, why? Because if that goodie gets it it's going to disappear and not benefit the evils.

See, to me and most leaders, we don't give a damn if you're friend or not. We just want to know that the spanky items we get are going to be active and benefit the evil population. The same goes if some well known evil that's everyones best buddy comes out of retirement for a couple zones, is he going to get the gold item? He's helped the evil population tons in the past! But, said retired person is going to disappear again, and the item won't help the evil population. Guarentee he won't get the item.

Now, if anyone is going to go and say that people stop playing evils because they don't get items becuase the evil's system hates them, they can just stfu. If you are somewhat active and perform your job well, you're gonna get the items. If you stop by once in a blue moon or think you did ok, when really you sucked and 10 other people in the group performed twice as well as you, then you're not going to get items :)

If anyone says otherwise, fact is you're a liar because this is how the system goes :)


and i cry bullshit!

my 4th time out zoning after wipe as teyaha. we did brass and a few other zones. they did the hand out system.

i was wearing still lowbie and newbie gear at 41. had no hp rings. amey ring went out..no big deal i wanted the ellie ring. ellie ring went out to someoone with spider ring.

ok so im thinking since im the only one in the group without hp rings as a caster, i'll get that hand-me-down

nope. went to someone else for their ALT!!!

that's BULLSHIT, and you know it.

it was that night my BBS tirades about the hypocrisy in the hand out system started, and i still stand by that. who is worthy is being determined by a human, and there is no such thing as an unbiased human anywhere on this planet.

the only fair system is a restricted to class dice system, as you cant complain about true randomness. i have never complained openly about any dicing (sure, you grumble to yourself when you dont win something you really want, but everyone does that inside) because as shev pointed out, a new guy winning a neat ring or something may inspire longterm loyalty because they now realize instantly one of the rewards of all that time invested, all that lost xp and all that bickering about afk people.

i have never gone afk in a zone. i was a very good chanter as many people have said. i followed ossis's lead to the letter. many of the new chanters complain about what spell they will or will not cast in a zone (i only do that when doing xp cause it can be painful to cast that much on my hands in rl) when i never did. i'm still here. i still pull out teyaha when she's needed even if it's just to xp some random noobie that i dont even know.

but i didnt deserve that P.O.S. spider ring i guess.
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Postby Stamm » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:01 pm

That's completely true Tehaya...

However... :)

I believe there are people who can distribute items fairly.

And I also believe that an imperfect handout system is better than a perfect bid system. Simply because if nearly all of the items to go where they would be best used, then that's better than them being distributed randomly. Of course the problems start when you have a group of 15 people, and out of the zone they only need 1 item each, and they are all interested in 2 of 10 items. And then again when you've got an alt and you want to get some equiipment for him, you'll find it very difficult, because there's always some level 41 dude zoning with crap gear on. Regardless if you have a ranger alt you'd like to equip but you never get to take him zoning because your cleric is always needed. And if you do get the item instead of the level 41 dude, you'll get all sorts of nastiness and ill feeling.

The only real time that handouts work is when everybody could use several items from a zone, which is only going to happen with a group of half naked people, or after a pwipe.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:59 pm

If the elemental ring were diced off and you lost it, you wouldn't have gotten the spider ring anyway.
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Postby Yasden » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:22 pm

I used to do handout/handdown on all zone eq, and then dice any rares that we'd gotten. However, when the playerbase declined and evil zoning became a rarity, I had to be fair to all the new folk we had with us and dice everything. I still put stipulations on a few things (like not bidding Surtur/Twilight unless you have a 40+ char that can use), but for the most part everything is free-for-all, and 95% of the time people do the right thing and bid only stuff they can use. A lot of the high end "leet" folks only bid on the stuff needed for quests anymore, since most ofthe eq they need is either off Muspel invasion or some other high end zone that gets done once every 6 months.

For the very reason Shev mentioned, this was why I opted for this method. I would rather dice eq and keep the new folks/goodie converts playing with us because they had an equal chance to win something as an evil as they did a goodie (and for the most part a lot of them win a lot more often as their evils). Now, if it was just a bunch of my guildies or a small group of friends I can see doing handouts, but with our new players that are slowly coming in, we have to accomodate them too.

Deathmagnet

Added: Teyaha, hope you haven't ever been upset with me or my methods.
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:46 am

This is long, so you probably won't wanna read it.

First, Shevie:

I did exactly what you said, for three months in fact (wasn't always bids, but handing a spanky item to a newew player because they did a good job often brings more pride to that person then winning a bid finally after 10 tries). I did many clouds run, when clouds was worth doing, bringing newbies over and over and over, teaching them the ropes. Since the beginning of summer I never once claimed an item for myself from a zone, and in fact only bid 1x, and that's because the entire group told me to have it since i've been trying to get one all wipe. I distributed a vast amount of badass eq to new people, taught them how to play, everything. They just had to show that they'd show up every so often and had a good attitude. Problem is, less then six months later, how many of those people are still active? A big whoppin one.

Is this because evils were mean, and rude, and bla bla bla? Newp, just people have lives, they get bored, etc. Many times people get things too quickly, they get spoiled, and get bored quite easily (or fed up when they don't get the biggest badass quests handed to them within a day).

Just saying, i've exercised that system shevie, and while it worked short term, it failed long term (more then 4+ months, which isn't very long term). I hope they come back, because I had a lot of fun with them, but we'll see.

To Teyaha:

Now i've never really had a beef with you. I've always stood up for you, invited you along, etc. So don't go all flamie on me etc, i'm just saying what's already been said bud.

In regards to not getting an item from a zone that only takes 30-60 minutes after FOUR tries, heh, that makes me laugh. So you didn't get it after four tries? Sure, that sucks, but chances are there were a lot more to the situation then just that. It's only four tries man, now if it had been eight or more, then I can see a complaint. Took me 11 runs to get my first diamondine. You don't even wanna know how many loki invasion trips it took for a surtur. What about wrist razors? HAH. Or my second amethyst? Shit, it took me easily over 30 fireplane runs to get my first (and i still only have one) flaming earring.

What about gut bag? Dang man, i STILL don't have a silvery sack. Point is, there's reasons for all of these. And while me just stating those facts makes the situation look pretty shitty, in all actually most of them are quite understandable (while still annoying).

What if the leader had promised that person in previous runs next time they came they'd get ellie ring, maybe they each had done the zone 20x each? Hell, if you do brass with me 30 times and you want a third ellie ring, so it can go on your alt, and you don't get eq that often, i'm going to give it to you over someone who's only done it four times. Yes it's important to get new recruits, but if the only 5-10 people that stay true to evils quit, then there's nothing left to recruit people for.

If it had been a bid situation instead Teyaha, it would have been very unlikely you would have gotten the ellie ring. I've gotten screwed over sooooo bad by the bid system. OMG so bad :p

What i've tried to say here is, what I said in my first post was not bullshit, it all held true. People just don't know the whole situation.
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:09 am

I think handouts worked well back earlier in the wipe when everyone needed the items from the zones. Now with a lot people equipping alts and getting quest items, bidding works better since the particular piece of eq isn't as much of a necessity as it was when our eq sucked. At least thats how I see it, since the people I group with are considerate of others about eq and stuff, and we'll give our bids to the person who actually does need something.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:31 am

Ragorn wrote:If the elemental ring were diced off and you lost it, you wouldn't have gotten the spider ring anyway.



true, but the point of the handout system is that theunused gear is handed down...it's a hand out/hand down system.

or it was at wipe anyway. if we had diced i would have had a chance at the ring. i didnt expect to get anything, but would have been nice to have had a CHANCE at it.

to gyrx...

lemme quote myself for ya..


oh and if amount of trips are what justify an item to you, then i should have an old twilight. i went on over 10 jot invasions with my warrior on toril, and i only ever bid on twilight. never did win it. at least 6 of those trips the twilight went to a caster. 50 cc trips = no ebony as a warrior. the only time i got any eq this wipe was when turg lead, or when sok lead. turg is the only one anybody can trust to do unbiased hand outs.

my 4th time out zoning after wipe as teyaha. we did brass and a few other zones. they did the hand out system.


it was more than just one zone. was a few hours of zoning actually, about 5 or 6 hours if i remember...

i do know the whole situation. i'm not some new to evils this month player. and i've been screwed over by dicing..or have i?

how is it being screwed if it's a fair chance and you lost? do you cry because you didnt in the lottery after buying a ticket every week?

no you dont, but at least you had an equal chance. in handouts you have no chance because your individual worth is determined by yet another human being...who's opinions are influenced not only by his/her experiences withyou, but also by what his or her other friends think of you.

handouts are still biased, and i still cry bullshit when someone tries to claim they are not regardless of whatever your perceived justfication is.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:44 am

Handouts are biased... towards players that actually would use or deserve an item. I did handouts as a goodie leader for a bit, and I found some people hate the system and some love it.

If you don't have a group of people that zone together regularly, handouts look bad because the 3-4 people who aren't regulars don't see rewards as often.

Personally, I liked to reward people for effort in a zone. I handed out warlord crown to single enchanter. Were people pissed? Maybe, but everyone seemed ok w/ this since they were all back zoning the next day.

Dicing bothers the hell out of me because it promotes even more hoarding. If 5 guild members all bid on 1 item for 1 person in group, they are more likely to win it and snub the 1 person who might actually need it anyhow.

But that's just my opinion.

T
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Postby Malia » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:46 am

I agree with handouts, and leaders that claim 1 item.

I get so tired of seeing people go to a zone 1x or 2x and get the item because of lucky dice vs actual skill and persistance. I think total times i have been to seelie is over 40 now, i have won 3x total. Yet i still see people go for the first time, and walk out with the item i have tried 40x to get just cuz the dice, not skill, not because they deserve it but just some lousy freakin dice. I do see a problem with grouping with diffrent people all the time cuz it makes handouts alot harder, when you group with the same group all the time handouts are easy and people learn that the more then go with you the better they have of getting an item but you best not expect it on first or second run, also with handouts come handme downs. If i hand you a seelie band, you best damn well hand down what your wearing to someone else that needs it and not keep it for some alt.

second point id like to see more leaders claim items, doesnt have to be best item or even a top item, shit claim a lower item just to sell on auction or hand down to a guildie, but claim something. By doing this i think it will promote more players to learn zones and lead the zones. As it is there are less then a handful of ACTIVE leaders and it seems to be getting smaller not bigger. I know 1 of the reasons i learned jot was so that i could claim the freaking giantbane! (way back when monks were still in game and giantbane was a command proc) All im saying is there has got to be some motivation for people to learn zones and lead. Right now we got very few leaders and a bunch of spoon fed cry babies that think they should win things on thier first run to a zone. Putting together a good group is 10x more work then leading the actual zone =)

On a side note, anyone that wants help learing a zone or wants someone with them that knows the zone to help lead i love helping. Anything that will improve the players as well as the playerbase im all for.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:46 am

Tasan wrote:
Dicing bothers the hell out of me because it promotes even more hoarding. If 5 guild members all bid on 1 item for 1 person in group, they are more likely to win it and snub the 1 person who might actually need it anyhow.

But that's just my opinion.

T


how is that different from the leader being from the same guild and also NOT giving the item to the person that most needs it anyhow?

that logic is flawed.
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Postby Yarash » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:29 pm

Malia wrote:second point id like to see more leaders claim items... By doing this i think it will promote more players to learn zones and lead the zones. As it is there are less then a handful of ACTIVE leaders and it seems to be getting smaller not bigger. ...All im saying is there has got to be some motivation for people to learn zones and lead.


I have noticed this as well. When I think back a year ago, I observed much more zoning than what is happening now. The older leaders are getting burned out I believe.

I don't think claiming is necessary though. I would argue that for most items, most players could easily gather together friends and guild members to help acquire the item. I have gone to zones to help friends (both guildies and non guildies) get a specific item, and my friends have done the same for me. If a friend needs my help getting something, and the time investment is not unreasonable, I'm totally down for that, and I think most sojourners are like that.

It should also be noted that there are two kinds of claims, the advanced notice claim and the surprise claim. Advanced notice claims let people know what is going on when they are deciding to join the group. I have never heard a complaint when this happens. Surprise claims happen when the leader notifies the group of the claim after the zone has been completed. This is the claim that I have heard complaints about. I think that zone leaders should try to avoid this type of claiming.

It doesn't happen enough to be an issue though. Personally, I can only remember three instances of items being claimed in groups I was in, two while playing a goodrace char and another as an evilrace char.

As far as benefits for zone leaders, there aren't many. There is one significant benefit though. If dicing is involved, the leader can better decide what to bid on. Any item that doesn't have bids is available for the leader to simply take as their bid. This is a big advantage, though not nearly enough to make up for the troubles of leading I think.

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Postby Sesexe » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:00 pm

Clarification: Hand-out does not necessarily mean Hand-down.

Handout causes more bickering and disagreement then dicing. (Why so many Evil Leaders stopped leading, it’s their call so they take it personal when any unhappiness arises or is directed at them.)

No matter how miniscule the chance, say because of organized bidding against you, dicing still leaves you with a visible and acknowledged chance to win. (Regardless of the odds stacked against you. Handouts remove this visible and acknowledged chance.)

Hand-out method kills trade, because it promotes a balanced set of eq as you level up. (With no obviously under-powered EQ slots sticking out, or overpowered items, you don’t feel a need to trade to balance yourself out. There becomes no need for so-so high-end items.)

Dicing method promotes trade, as players who won high-level items they can’t use can now trade them for high-level items they can use. (Ever try trading a bunch of so-so high end items for a elite item you need? You need elite gear to get elite gear.)


Advice to anyone zoning with evils at anytime: Ask the Leader how he/she is going to handle the equipment split from the zone they are going to lead before you do the zone, even if you think you know how they do it. (If the split is that important to you, then asking this simple question isn’t a big deal. I ask it, and I know how each leader does what for the most part in Evils, but sometimes they change.) Log the conversation. Date and Time stamp it. They don’t hold true to their word when the split comes around. Post the split and what they said earlier on the BBS to show everyone how full of shit they are. (I’d really be surprised if even one log shows up.)
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:24 pm

Sesexe wrote:
Dicing method promotes trade, as players who won high-level items they can’t use can now trade them for high-level items they can use. (Ever try trading a bunch of so-so high end items for a elite item you need? You need elite gear to get elite gear.)


This might be just a matter of opinion, but I don't think this is such a good thing. I think eq trading is one of the most self-defeating aspects of this game, for a number of reasons. First of all, by trading for equipment, you no longer have to get that equipment, and thus zones go undone. You have taken away the very goal you have within this game.

Trading also promotes hoarding, as well as promoting bidding for eq you cant use. Players winning high-end eq that they cant use is not a good thing. Regardless of whether they intend to trade it, or use it for an alt, or give it to their girlfriend, who cares. Nothing breeds contempt like doing musp invasion and watching the bracer go to the invoker.

The dicing method also detracts any sort of extra effort in a zone. The rogue who is afk the entire zone and just has an assist trigger gets the same chance of winning as the enchanter who kept all 3 tanks stoned, bandaged 4 people back from mort mid-fight, landed the silence and prevented a spank, etc etc. Any reason to put in extra effort falls on pride rather than being reward motivated. And while this is fine if you are in a group with the same people all the time, in mercenary leads which are more common these days it creates issues. At least when you hand out there's the possibility that the leader will notice and reward extra effort.

I personally hate the dicing method, if for no other reason than the dice hate me. When I get eq, its usually because I have done the zone so many times that i eventually have to win, either because everyone else in the group already got one and has stopped bidding on the item, or because you are bound to win 1 of 40 dice rolls. The other time I get eq is when a leader finally says enough is enough we are just going to give it to him. So I think ideally the handout method is better, but dicing is often necessary when you have a group of people who don't normally run together, and don't care about the other members of the group.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:07 pm

Handouts increase ptimes.
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:13 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:Handouts increase ptimes.


Says the retired player:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:14 pm

thanuk wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:Handouts increase ptimes.


Says the retired player:)


Have you seen a long operatic "goodbye" post from me? ;)
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"



Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:18 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Have you seen a long operatic "goodbye" post from me? ;)


No, but that's not your style either:) If you ever leave, I'd be looking for more of a Scarface from Half Baked exit...

F**k you, f**k you, f**k you, you're cool, and f**k you, I'm out.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:18 pm

thanuk wrote:F**k you, f**k you, f**k you, you're cool, and f**k you, I'm out.


Best quote ever.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
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Postby belleshel » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:25 pm

Sesexe wrote:Dicing method promotes trade, as players who won high-level items they can’t use can now trade them for high-level items they can use. (Ever try trading a bunch of so-so high end items for a elite item you need? You need elite gear to get elite gear.)


This is perhaps the biggest drawback to dicing. Promoting trade is not a good thing. The worst thing is watching a tough item that folks in a group need, get posted up for trade (sometime right after the zone ends). The fastest way to a 'elite' set is to always bid the most valuable item, then trade it for things you need. There is something horribly wrong with that.

Handouts works in some cases, but doesn't work in the current situation Toril finds itself in. Restricted bids is the fairest way I know of for the current mud.
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Postby Malia » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:54 pm

I started a seperate thread on bidding and dicing and claiming.. use that and let this thread go back to its intent.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:14 am

Sesexe wrote:Clarification: Hand-out does not necessarily mean Hand-down.



it sure as hell did. ask turg, krolb, or any of the older evils. my rl friend drabyl was outcast sorc on toril. he told me how it all goes. then this wipe i met up with krolb and turg and they said the same things.

it was always hand out, hand down until about a year after wipe when most of the old skool evils disappeared.

you were not zoning in the beginning.

thanuk said trading promotes hoarding. true, in a way. however there are people who hoard like it's the end of the world and havent traded a piece - ever.

you will never see restricted bids become popular, simply because people ARE greedy. that warrior wants to be able to bid on that spanky hp ring that's !warrior for his alt too, especially since he/she has been playing here for however many years and has zoned so much he/she figures he/she deserves it...even though he/she runs entirley with triggers having the leader send him tells to 'bash <mobname>' through the whole zone because he's afk the entire time....

letting a human being determine who's the most worthy will always be a flawed system, because there is no such thing as a truly unbiased human being.
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Postby Salen » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:30 am

Wait... evils haven't been doing hand-me-down?

I coulda sworn that's how it used to be also.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:53 am

it was that way salen for a while. when the old skool guys started to disappear the handing down stopped.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:35 pm

I think it was just because you were unliked Teyaha. Every group I've been in doing a hand out has also handed down.

Never really grouped with you in game that I can recall, but if you piss and moan like you do on the board its no wonder you didn't get anything. It was a hint, get lost.
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Postby Cordan » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:56 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:I think it was just because you were unliked Teyaha. Every group I've been in doing a hand out has also handed down.

Never really grouped with you in game that I can recall, but if you piss and moan like you do on the board its no wonder you didn't get anything. It was a hint, get lost.


Must.... resist....... temptation.......
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Postby Stamm » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:13 pm

Anybody who moans and whines should fit right in with the evils :P

Joking!

Merry Christmas evils!
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Postby Ihazim » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 am

I feel like a leader claiming eq alienates a group, even if it's stated beforehand. And on another note if this becomes a common occurance, that leader gains a reputation and which can't be avoided unless you change the entire trend to 1 the claiming of 1 item. Which i think is what this post attempts to do. I don't see things changing though, most of the leaders right now are those that enjoy to lead.

Also, if a leader claims an item he needs, what will drive them to lead the same zone? In my opinion it doesn't promote consistent long time leaders and instead it's only a short term solution to something i dont believe is a problem right now.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:44 am

now, children ... don't make me get the paddle out ... o wait some of you would like that ...


Teyaha keep in mind that with as few regular posters as we have, certain names will stick out more ... you might need to let your skin grow a little thicker so critcisms in the form of jokes will roll off a little more ... rememebr that Myn has only been playing again a few months after a long hiatus ....

I personally have never had any issue with you but I have mentioned in the past the fact you bring 9/10's of the feedback you get upon yourself....
We have only grouped a few times, but certain things stick out ... I remember the infamous god-run jot trip where you were the only scaler at lvl 46 ... I rememebr ad-naseum complaining about your carpel tunnel and how hard a job you had ...

Later on I rememebr xp groups where you refused to stone the tank on mage fights cause the stones would fall faster on shielded mobs (true but damn)

You have LONG complained about your lack of winnings in splits, and to be quite frank, there may have been some truth in what Myn said .. Leaders may have taken you to zones because of a lack of other enchanters, and your performance may have been sub-standard....

I have since rolled an enchanter and seen that it is NOT that big a deal to haste/globe/blur/scale a bunch of people all alone (i have OFTEN been the solo scaler and my chanter is ONLY lvl 48 now) spam glances and some good aliases and your job is made SOO much easier ...

I duly apologize for the personal note here, it has long been a point of contention of mine that i dont like personal flames ... and i find my patience has become worn and here i am jumping ont he flame bandwagon ....

anyway ...

-Jennifer

and err there is a post missing cause this was an answer to one :(
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:34 am

Teyaha wrote:it sure as hell did. ask turg, krolb, or any of the older evils. my rl friend drabyl was outcast sorc on toril. he told me how it all goes. then this wipe i met up with krolb and turg and they said the same things.


That's nice that Drabyl was your friend on the original Toril those many years ago, but I wasn't aware he has ever lead zones as an evil in this version of the MUD. So you'll pardon me if I don't understand the relevance. You'll also note that I'm speaking in the present and also pointing out that Hand-outs = Hand-downs is not a 100% certainty. I’ve zoned a lot with Turg and Krolb, on this version of the MUD, and they didn’t do Hand-downs with every one of their Hand-outs.

Teyaha wrote:it was always hand out, hand down until about a year after wipe when most of the old skool evils disappeared.


All the old school evils didn’t all disappear after the first year. A lot left, yes, but not all. Your two examples leaders listed above we still here, who unlike yourself, were very active well beyond the first year. The hand-down method decreased in frequency not because of the leaders, but because of the numerous alt characters each evilrace player had. This is also when we saw the first decline in the hand-out method starting. It got very hard to hand people EQ to alts above primary players just because they played a necessary class. The leaders were being continually subjected to mountains of complaints from players.

Teyaha wrote:you were not zoning in the beginning.


I’m not sure what you mean by ‘beginning’, but I’ll be fair and admit that for the first 9 months I wasn’t zoning regularly under other leaders. I have since tho. With each year that’s gone by I’ve been increasingly more active in zone groups. Considering I’m speaking in present and active terms, about a group of players who now populate the current majority of active Evilrace players, times have changed.

This isn’t the CC dominated Evils of old anymore.

I only wish you could one day forget what happened to you almost 3 years ago; try and develop a new fresher perspective; give different folks and different minds a fair chance instead of continually flaming them about things that don’t apply to the majority of the individuals involved.

*shrugs*
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:15 am

Sesexe wrote:
Teyaha wrote:it sure as hell did. ask turg, krolb, or any of the older evils. my rl friend drabyl was outcast sorc on toril. he told me how it all goes. then this wipe i met up with krolb and turg and they said the same things.


That's nice that Drabyl was your friend on the original Toril those many years ago, but I wasn't aware he has ever lead zones as an evil in this version of the MUD. So you'll pardon me if I don't understand the relevance. You'll also note that I'm speaking in the present and also pointing out that Hand-outs = Hand-downs is not a 100% certainty. I’ve zoned a lot with Turg and Krolb, on this version of the MUD, and they didn’t do Hand-downs with every one of their Hand-outs.


because the hand-out and hand down system was dominant when kanthas lead the evils. and drabyl was outcast...2+2=?

Sesexe wrote:
Teyaha wrote:it was always hand out, hand down until about a year after wipe when most of the old skool evils disappeared.


All the old school evils didn’t all disappear after the first year. A lot left, yes, but not all. Your two examples leaders listed above we still here, who unlike yourself, were very active well beyond the first year. The hand-down method decreased in frequency not because of the leaders, but because of the numerous alt characters each evilrace player had. This is also when we saw the first decline in the hand-out method starting. It got very hard to hand people EQ to alts above primary players just because they played a necessary class. The leaders were being continually subjected to mountains of complaints from players.


because it's as unfair as open bidding. i've always said that restricting the first round of any bids to the classes that can use the item is the most fair, and keeps those with good dice-karma from winning everything while those with no dice-karma win nothing.

and i had no choice to not be active a year after the mud opened. unlike many of you, i dont get to sit on my ass at work and mud while i work. RL does occaisonally rear it's ugly head and take over. quite a few old skool evils disappeared months after opening...who was that first level 50 orc shaman? cant remember her name...there were alot of them. even drabyl who came back as an ogre and lur who came back as an illusionist. a lot of the old evils andold outcasts disappeared before i did.

Sesexe wrote:
Teyaha wrote:you were not zoning in the beginning.


I’m not sure what you mean by ‘beginning’, but I’ll be fair and admit that for the first 9 months I wasn’t zoning regularly under other leaders. I have since tho. With each year that’s gone by I’ve been increasingly more active in zone groups. Considering I’m speaking in present and active terms, about a group of players who now populate the current majority of active Evilrace players, times have changed.

This isn’t the CC dominated Evils of old anymore.

I only wish you could one day forget what happened to you almost 3 years ago; try and develop a new fresher perspective; give different folks and different minds a fair chance instead of continually flaming them about things that don’t apply to the majority of the individuals involved.

*shrugs*


cc wasnt around at the beginning either, and honestly OD was just as dominant. but that's irrelevant.

i have gone to great lengths to try to fit in after i came back about 9 months ago. i have a job that has me getting home at 7pm pst, so most of you are halfway through zones when i'm just getting through the door. i simply cant zone like i used to.

and i have a fresher perspective. getting old and trying other forms of entertainment can do that. the problem is assholes like myzz bringing the old shit back up...dont expect me to roll over and take it because i simply cant. i've taken a lot of shit from a lot of people here and i'm still here. if that's not proof enough that i'm in it for the long haul then i dont know what is.

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