How to promote new leaders claiming/not claiming

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Malia
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How to promote new leaders claiming/not claiming

Postby Malia » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:20 pm

I agree with handouts, and leaders that claim 1 item.

I get so tired of seeing people go to a zone 1x or 2x and get the item because of lucky dice vs actual skill and persistance. I think total times i have been to seelie is over 40 now, i have won 3x total. Yet i still see people go for the first time, and walk out with the item i have tried 40x to get just cuz the dice, not skill, not because they deserve it but just some lousy freakin dice. I do see a problem with grouping with diffrent people all the time cuz it makes handouts alot harder, when you group with the same group all the time handouts are easy and people learn that the more then go with you the better they have of getting an item but you best not expect it on first or second run, also with handouts come handme downs. If i hand you a seelie band, you best damn well hand down what your wearing to someone else that needs it and not keep it for some alt.

second point id like to see more leaders claim items, doesnt have to be best item or even a top item, shit claim a lower item just to sell on auction or hand down to a guildie, but claim something. By doing this i think it will promote more players to learn zones and lead the zones. As it is there are less then a handful of ACTIVE leaders and it seems to be getting smaller not bigger. I know 1 of the reasons i learned jot was so that i could claim the freaking giantbane! (way back when monks were still in game and giantbane was a command proc) All im saying is there has got to be some motivation for people to learn zones and lead. Right now we got very few leaders and a bunch of spoon fed cry babies that think they should win things on thier first run to a zone. Putting together a good group is 10x more work then leading the actual zone =)

On a side note, anyone that wants help learing a zone or wants someone with them that knows the zone to help lead i love helping. Anything that will improve the players as well as the playerbase im all for.
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Postby Malia » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:22 pm

I moved this to its own topic because it needed it I think, any reply you put towards the other you can place here. Any suggestions to promote more leading I'd love to hear about. Keep the flaming down please =)
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Postby belleshel » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:34 pm

Malia wrote:Any suggestions to promote more leading I'd love to hear about.


Smarter players, considerate players. Nothing like watching someone go afk mid-zone, fail to listen to the leader, or think they know a better way to lead mid-zone (sending tells is one thing, arguing over gsay entirely different). Those hassles are what kill the drive to lead, as well as trying to actually get the right class mix for the group.

As for you claiming suggestion, the leaders I go with aren't leading for personal gain, so it doesn't much change anything. If someone wants to claim something thats cool, as long as the entire group knows ahead of time. I don't see that promoting more leaders to step forward, and if it does its the wrong type of leaders.

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Postby Cordan » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:51 pm

Actually, hand out systems are good for those with the solid base of friends who stick together. Like someone pointed out, this can leave newer players out cold a lot of times. This IMHO is not a great thing, because one of the player catching aspects of this mud is getting cool eq.

You honestly can't base chances of getting eq on how many times you've done a zone. People can easily lie about how many times they've done zones. I tried for months to get eldritch rings. I can't begin to count the times i've done TF and the ring is won through bidding by someone who already has 2 eldritch rings on them, when several others including me didn't have them. I've only ever had one of those rings, and i got it trading.

Both systems have draw backs. One is chance, one is friends/connections. As for which a leader should use? I'd prefer chance by bidding.

As for leaders claiming an item, well, this depends. If a leader does TF regularly, and claims the eldritch ring over and over... no. Bad idea. Claiming items should probably follow the following rules:

1. No claiming the best piece from the zone. It's what most people probably are doing the zone for anyways.
2. Announce as you're forming the group "I plan on claiming ****" so that people can decide whether or not to spend the time on the zone. This may hurt group formation, but it's only fair, and people don't get AS pissed.
3. Leaders have option to keep cash. Lots of cash comes from zones, and can be a very good incentive to lead if you grab the cash.
4. If you grab cash, abstain from claiming an item unless cash is poor. Then it doesn't really matter.

Ways to promote leading.

1. Set up a small xp bonus per kill for being head of a group. This could work for zoning or xp if you think about it. But you must have at least one other PC grouped, not just pets. But people will want to learn more zones/xp areas so they can get the little bonus. Might be nice for mages leading zones too. Have to set this just right to be feasible.
2. Ability to choose from almost all items obtained in zone. See rules above.
3. ..........

Hell, can't think of anything else atm. Kinda tough situation....
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Postby belleshel » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 pm

Course we aren't sure what it does but....

A group leader should get a prestige multiplier for any prestige gained in a zone. Only makes sense.
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Postby fotex » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:38 pm

Seems the leader should just ungroup the "undeserving person", if he/she is really that bad in the first place. Claiming eq has the effect of potentially alienating the whole group.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:01 pm

8)

It doesn't matter how much skill someone has- if they are in your zone group, it's probably because you needed them or because they are your friend. Either way, they deserve the item just as much as anyone else- so they should get their chance. I don't do handouts, and unless it's an all Imphras group, I don't follow people who do handouts.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:12 pm

I never liked handouts. I followed a handout leader one time. I was told halfway through the zone "You won't be getting anything this run, but stick with us and you'll get what you want eventually." I guess for some people, that's reassuring. For me, it was like the leader telling me that my 3 hours weren't worth anything. Not even a shot at the item I wanted. I always diced items, and I strongly encouraged people to bid only on items they needed for the character that came to the zone, OR for a 40+ alt. As long as you don't have people bidding on their 9th eldritch ring or bidding on twilight so they can roll up a warrior, it works out pretty fine.

The advantage of dicing for the leader is, the leader gets to see all the bids before making a decision on what to bid on himself. I scored lots of equipment for Ragorn, as well as plenty of stuff in other games just by seeing which items attracted one or no bids, and bidding on them. You won't get the #1 item this way, but the leader can guarantee himself SOMETHING without any possibility of people bitching about it. What are they going to say, "Oh you greedy bitch I wanted that, even though I bid on something else?"

Or the leader can claim an item, I never really had a problem with that either. As long as we all knew up front what he was claiming, it was all good. I'd blow a gasket if we got DONE with the zone and then the leader said "by the way I'm taking surtur" if that's the item I spent my time trying to get. Goes back to how I feel about handouts I guess... everyone should know up front what their chances of getting an item are.
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Postby Malia » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:29 pm

Thanks for keeping this constructive there are some cool code ideas to give incentive for leading.

Bonus exp
Bonus prestige

Just gotta find a way that neither can be just abused in exp groups.

Aslo for claiming items, no i dont think any of the ACTIVE leaders out there are in it for the eq. I dont think any of them would lead TF over and over and constantly claim the ring either. I do think that that it shouldnt even be mentioned at the start just expected, like in the past. I lead tf, this run im gonna keep the armor, or this run im gonna keep the claws, this run im giving the ring to so and so for lich quest. Zoneing isnt about the eq, and claiming isnt about eq, its about spending efort getting a group together, spending time learing the zone, being able to get the right combo of players together, and making it all work. Claiming is about respect for the person that puts in the time and effort to do all those things. It also encourages someone to strive to do the same.

As for the dicing and hands outs it is tough when its not always the same group. I do think i may start handing out some of the smaller items in zones.. to for people that did extra work in zone. Also HANDOUTS MEAN HANDDOWNS. If you chose not to hand down, then i chose not to handout to you. if i catch people afk i may cut there chance of getting an item say... instead of 1-10, you get 1-5
just some thoughts.

So if I say (tank name) north, nothing happens... again (tankname) north nothing happens.. finaly another tank says want me to go? I may just say ok just know on dice that im gonna give first tank that afkd 1-5 instead of 1-10

Also if so and so did Super well in a group, above and beyond what was expected i might give them 1-15 instead of 1-10 to reward it.

Thanks again for all the input and keeping it constructive.
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Postby Dlur » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:42 pm

Back when I used to lead (read: many years ago) I used a hybrid between dicing and handouts. Basically the only people that could bid on an item were those that could use it for their primary and didn't already have a full set. If everyone that was currently grouped had the item then anyone could bid on it. Seems to be the most fair all around, to me anyways.

The main reason why I didn't like leading was if I was going too slow everyone let me know it. If I was going too fast then everyone bitched also. I never really minded if people goofed off as long as nobody got killed during an important part of a zone. I always hate when people go afk mid-zone unless it's pretty important (even when not leading). I generally never have a problem with someone not knowing what they're doing as long as they don't make the same mistake repeatedly.

I think if the MUD is going to have new leaders then the followers need to be more patient with people who are trying to lead for their first times. It's great when you can have a close group of friends follow you for your first few times till you get the hang of leading, but even then they sometimes need to be patient. In talking to some of the better leaders that I've followed as a player they don't even really see themselves as leaders, just more motivators than anything. They always said that they are only as good of leaders as the sum of the people that follow them. And that's likely true to a great extent.
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Postby Stamm » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:06 pm

People lead because they want to lead and they get pleasure from leading. Or they lead because nobody else can.

It doesn't need any special favours or xp benefits, nor should leaders be claiming whatever they want from a zone. Because I'm not going to follow them. Not unless at the start of the zone they -ask- if it's ok if object x is claimed for person y. That happens a fair amount and people are usually happy to help. But the first time someone claims an item without asking at the start of the zone is the last time I will ever group with them.
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Postby Alomlim » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:16 pm

The bonus prestige idea seems innately just; thumb up.
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Postby Stamm » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:20 pm

The bonus xp thing would be abused from word go.

The little level 47 guy in your group would hold the group.

And prestige? Paladins and antis would hold the group.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:06 am

peraps i am missing something, but if there were a prestige bonus, why would paladins or antis hold the group stamm?

*puzzled look*

but i agree with the exp bit. nobody leads for exp anyway, and this is supposed to be a motivator for zoning, the exp bonus would probbably be most seen in exp groups =P
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:48 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:peraps i am missing something, but if there were a prestige bonus, why would paladins or antis hold the group stamm?


Because supposdly their weapon procs are based on prestige.
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Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:27 am

Lol I was totally joking about prestige...
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Postby Lilithelle » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:15 am

Thats a lie and you know it Belleshel, Rylan was never a man.

Unfortunately its too easy to alienate people with handouts. Even penalizing people for bad performance is subjective and possibly biased. I might start giving consideration to people who have failed past bids in future bids so they have a better chance at winning instead of losing over and over again.

My concern about it is that people I only bring occasional might feel like their being penalized. Sometimes people get invited cause they're the only shaman on, or only enchanter, where as people normally take the person in their clique. And why do they not deserve the same shot as anyone else? Its not their fault they don't go their with you regularly. So their one time they get taken to that special zone with spiff eq they want they might feel cheated of their chance at it.

The winner handing down eq can be problematic too, for instance Pava often zones with me but not always as rogue, sometimes cleric or enchanter and usually at my request because we need that class for the group. They're all level 50, they're all used to zone so I don't mind when pava bids on good eq for "alts". At least these main alts, but this can make handing down eq difficult, if Pava is there as an enchanter and bids on a cloak for pava, pava isn't there to hand anything down.

Well its late and about all I can do at this point is ramble so I'll end here, not sure I said anything useful. Though I would like to say I will help people learn to lead and learn zones, always happy to have people with which to share the load :)
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Postby Sarell » Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:16 pm

I tend to disagree. I think there is quite a lot of people leading zones considering the small pbase. Always seems to be a few people in the group who will lead something. Leading is by far the hardest task in a zone group, however I think with it comes a certain prestige if it is done well.

If it ever became the norm for leaders to claim an item when doing zone I don't think it would be an incentive for the kind of leaders most people wan't to follow over and over. I do think there would be more incidents of people bumbling their way through a hard zone killing people over and over then claiming the top items after never having lead something like UF smoothly.

When it comes to getting an item you really wan't I thik there is opportunity within the current playerbase. I definately believe within guilds or interguild / unguilded groups of friends there are people that will form up a group and help people out. Things like faerie dragon, musp quests, quest quest quest I see done like this all the time. I can think of about 10 regular players who I would happily follow into spob knowing that they were keeping a heart item if the right one loaded, however there are a whole lot of people I would turn down on this offer aswell.

The random factor of dicing euipment I think works ou fairly well in most cases. I do agree it is eternally frustrating in others *give me those damn musp scales you bastads!*
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Postby avak » Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:51 pm

I'd just like to add a little from my perspective as a relatively inexperienced zoner.

First of all, Malia mentioned doing a zone 40 times and only winning 3 bids. Obviously, a person who does a zone 40 times has a much, much better chance of winning bids than a player who can only zone occassionally. If you start biasing towards players who zone more then you are certainly penalizing those players who zone infrequently (or infrequently in your circles). Another way you could look at this fairness issue would be to bias your handouts to those more in need of the items. That would, in fact, probably bias things more towards the infrequent zoners. In my mind, that would potentially be equally fair, but equally flawed, as biasing towards sheer trips to the zone.

Secondly, I feel that any attempt to deviate from an essentially random system of bidding is asking for abuse. Perhaps the system works for the evils, I don't know, but if it does I would suggest it is because of a smaller, more regular player base. I think that as an infrequent zoner, I would either be given special attention or be biased against in a subjective system. Neither way would seem very good to me.

And finally, getting into the circles of players that zone regularly is difficult. Its very analagous to getting good credit...it takes credit to make credit, right? So, every time I am asked to zone I work really hard, try to pay attention, log the zone, listen to the leader, blah blah blah...all in hopes that I will make a decent impression and get asked back so that maybe someday I can say I did such and such zone 40 times.

So if you want to make more and better leaders, I would suggest looking at ways to involve as many players as practical. I would also suggest that a random bidding system for zone items is the best way to achieve that.
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Postby Nokie » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:01 pm

Do away with alts and the problem is solved!! :)
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:11 pm

No no! Replace all eq in zones with a whole bunch of tokens, redeemable for stuffed animals... I mean eq... for different numbers of zone specific tokens.
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Postby Malia » Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:27 pm

Really appreciate all the imput will try some diffrent things.. as I lead who knows maybe there is a happy medium. The one thing that really bugs me about dicing is for someone to win an item just to trade it, when 3 others needed it for the person they did the zone with. Seen it happen alot I understand this is how some players get what they need, but it also causes players to never learn zones. I look at some of the newer players, and ask them what zone they got it from to see if they even know and they usualy dont. "I dunno i traded for it" . Its this that I am trying to avoid also. Keep the imput comming.. it does help seeing all perpectives.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:52 am

Nokie wrote:Do away with alts and the problem is solved!! :)


Agree, cos we would all be sitting in WD not able to form a group :P


I definately agree with Malia on the dilemma where people bid high end items just to trade them. I reckon that is a tad harsh in cases where people in the group want to wear the item. While theoretically you can argue that they deserve just as much proportion of the loot whether it be to trade or sell or whatever, for me personally I just don't find as much satisfaction in trading for an item as getting it yourself. When it comes to high end rare load items / avernus stuff bidding to trade is just being mean imho. When people do repeatedly do this, especially for the same items over and over, they just start to not be wanted in zone groups. And while their decision to bid for trades may be morally secure, it is often less hassle for everyone invollved just to stick to the tradtion of zoning for items to wear. Otherwise I spose you would just do spob / seelie over and over and trade that stuff rather than see the world. Whatever takes your fancy.

I like very best the handout system between a close group of friends / guild / clique. I'm pretty sure no guild or group evil / good has the sustained players at the present time to do this successfully however.
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Postby Yarash » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:38 pm

I'm not sure how well this would work, but one way to make zone leading less of a burden would be to split up the tasks. Some tasks that could possibly be assigned to different people might include:

1. Recruiting
2. Leading the group from fight to fight
3. Providing instructions before each fight and after deaths
4. Looting the corpses / distributing items when zone is complete
5. Collecting bids and dicing the loot

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Postby Ihazim » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:45 pm

A leader claiming the item he/she wants is not a way to promote leaders. What would motivate this leader to lead against once their needs are met? As i see it, the majority of leaders right now lead because its something they like to do and there isn't really a problem with the base of leaders around.

If you want more leaders, you need more players and to alienate less of them. Leaders are nothing without their followers 8)
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Postby Yarash » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:52 pm

Sarell wrote:I definately agree with Malia on the dilemma where people bid high end items just to trade them. I reckon that is a tad harsh in cases where people in the group want to wear the item. ... When it comes to high end rare load items / avernus stuff bidding to trade is just being mean imho.


I agree.

And then there are are the rare occasions when people bid on items just to destroy it. I have seen a person bid against someone who needed an item, win it, and then drop the transient item right in front of the group. I have also seen (he bragged about it over gsay) a person eat the iceberry and then shortly after request a gwell. When these things happen, there should be penalties when the person tries to join future zoning groups.

- Mike
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:55 pm

Yarash wrote:I agree.

And then there are are the rare occasions when people bid on items just to destroy it. I have seen a person bid against someone who needed an item, win it, and then drop the transient item right in front of the group. I have also seen (he bragged about it over gsay) a person eat the iceberry and then shortly after request a gwell. When these things happen, there should be penalties when the person tries to join future zoning groups.

- Mike


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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:03 am

We just need people to try leading, sure forming up isn't a whole lot of fun and trying to get people to the zone and doing what their supposed to but after words its very satifying having successfully lead a zone and helped people get some eq they wanted. I usually feel pretty good after I finish a zone :)
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Postby rylan » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:10 am

Except for that Seelie run last night huh lili *ducks*
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Postby Mplor » Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:09 am

A long time ago, the leaders who would group me also typically claimed an item. When Jot was new I wanted skull earrings but every leader needed them too and would claim them each time. So I learned to lead. After a time, I stopped claiming because I felt it was easier to recruit for groups.

IMO the main thing that spawns new leaders is old leaders who don't keep their groups satisfied, perhaps because they get them killed or because they (are perceived to) unfairly distribute loot. Some ppl who used to follow me went on to be great leaders, probably because they felt they could do it better than I did. And most did. :)
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Postby Imis9 » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:09 am

I have to agree with Mplor here. The reason I started leading jot was to acquire a mistweave to call my own. :)
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Postby Malia » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:32 am

snicker, thats 3 leaders right there that started learning all due to jot and trying to aquire items in jot. All 3 of them, i would follow today. Claiming didnt create bad leaders, in these cases. I do think that the Playerbase suported it where as maybe this pbase doesnt. Just as hand outs were fine when you constantly zoned with same group, where as today you always have someone else in group that isnt a usual member. Also intresting that all 3 mentioned the same zone.. Jot! What a loved clasic zone!
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Postby Ihazim » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:26 am

do they lead anymore? :p
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:40 am

I used to lead alot for evils in soj2 and soj3. I was heavily into handouts and handme-downs, and kept a big excel-sheet to keep track of how many zones people had been with me too, how much eq they got, and if they whined etc...

In the end though, I said before the zone-runs if we did it for someone special needing an item, and diced the rest.

Handouts worked fine when 99% of my zonegroups were CC, but with lots of guys you haven't known for several years its more fair to just dice.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Dec 26, 2003 1:32 pm

who is this rareload Jegzed!!!!

*hugs n kisses*

I'm sick of talking to myself on assoc chat!!!!!
Imis9
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Postby Imis9 » Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:19 am

I think Jeg has a good point. We did do some handouts if a regular group member had a NEED of an item and had a streak of losing bids. With the much increased prevalence of alts, this would be a little tougher to do now. Also, on the real eq, meaning not the additional junk let after bidding, selling this eq was discouraged as we'd rather have a regular group member have it rather than sell it.

I have a question though. What zones act as the "new leader" training zones? Back in the day, IC was where new leaders cut their teeth on doing eq. Do zones like this still exist where the new leaders can learn and get decent eq?
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Postby Stamm » Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:37 am

Difficulty there is that nobody really wants to go because they don't need the equipment. Anybody who led IC would feel patronised.
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Postby Hyldryn » Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:31 am

Sometimes people follow not cause they absolutely need the eq, but rather because they are mindnumbingly bored. On a side note, boredom also can foster new leaders.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:48 am

I learned to lead so I could kill Grogu in new and improved ways.

Die, Grogu, die! :twisted:

That and it was the only way my class could actually contribute to a group.

T
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

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Postby jalahon » Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:13 pm

Claiming stuff really isnt my style;I'm convinced that no matter how good or bad my equipment is that I'll still be one of the last to die, and that Beern and Ashod will be the first ;)...although I would truly like to do handdowns sometimes because of deserving/undeserving people.

However, It's sometimes hard to only affect the deserving/undeserving people in your groups. My group demographics change constantly, and although I do have a bunch of regulars, that 13th, 14th and 15th group spot is always filled by a new, unsuspecting face :). I do sometimes restrict bidding during special events, like invasions, to steer bids towards favorability for people who I know could use them for a char they actually play.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:00 am

Y'all better stop complaining and fix it fast, or Ye Olde Harbinger is going to start leading again ;)
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Postby Jhorr » Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:44 am

Of course, the fun thing about leading is that the leader can choose to do things their own way, as Mplor suggested. Dice, handout, whatever. Some conventions are useful so people know what to expect and it's when people's expectations aren't met that they are dissatisfied.

I agree with most here: if you plan on claiming something from a zone, announce it ahead of time.

Ragorn makes a good point that if you dice EQ, as leader you know how the bids are distributed and can bid last, thereby improving your chances of winning something. This is in fact, one of the only privileges of leading. Being the only bidder on something can be like claiming it in effect, but you just don't know which item will be unbid.

Let's face it, we all want the best item in the zone. It was only a short time ago when Mikar took me to Jot and I was excited about the chance to bid on something. Let's not blow it for the up-and-coming folks.
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Imis = liar!

Postby Marforp » Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:13 pm

Bah! How many times did I do tiapet and not even get the shirt? Peh!

Damn those were the good old days!

So am I one of the few who really doesn't give a damn if they get eq? Do the zone enough and eventually you WILL get the item. Sure it may take 40 runs in TF or even 40 runs for tiapet, but it will come. The best thing was getting one bid for each time you had done tia...boy was it hard typing so many numbers AND still losing!

Marforp (a.k.a. Lalokiple / Sasdor)
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Postby Corth » Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:58 pm

Nothing keeps people interested in the mud more than NOT getting the eq they need. Not to say that this justifies claiming... I just don't buy any argument that the claiming of items has a negative effect on the pbase.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: How to promote new leaders claiming/not claiming

Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:38 am

I agree gene.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: How to promote new leaders claiming/not claiming

Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:56 am

Wow, necro much?
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
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Re: How to promote new leaders claiming/not claiming

Postby Gormal » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:52 pm

Brian was always Mori, didn't you know that?

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