vital strike for greys broken?

[Ihazim]

grey elves never vital. It's also listed under an intelligence skill yet it notches slowly and never lands! Can this be looked at?

[Cirath]

It's the same for humans. Yet dwarves, who supposedly have lower int than both hit it regularly. If it is str based can it please be moved to the str section, and if it is in fact int based then it needs to be looked at desperately.

[Yayaril]

8)

It's based on criticals. So if you critical a lot, like a dwarf, then you get a lot of chances to vital strike. If you critical relatively few times, like a grey, then you don't get a lot of chances to vital strike. My main beouf is that for some reason, critical hits are based on strength. I thought getting a critical hit meant you hit some particularly vital spot- sounds dexterity based.

[Eilistraee]

I looked at this skill, and it seems to be working correctly. The rate of progression is indeed intelligence based, but the helpfile explains what is happening with vital strike and your observations as such. :)

[Cirath]

My main beouf is that for some reason, critical hits are based on strength. I thought getting a critical hit meant you hit some particularly vital spot- sounds dexterity based.

I can see it being strength based, but I can also see it being dex based, or int based, all depending on your method of fighting. As it stands right now, I vital .1% of my hits, thats 1 in 1000 hits. Any way you look at it that is quite low. As I understand it, greys, halflings, and gnomes all have it the same way.

Maybe it can be looked at one of these days and reconsidered.

[Ashiwi]

vital strike (master) (95)

It definitely notches, although it does tend to notch very slowly, yes. I can go through a day or more never seeing a vital strike, then get several in a row. It seems awfully low, but it's not like we'll waste away if it's not upped.

[Waelos]

Please up vital strike to 50%.

Also, give rogues triple and quadruple attack.

Lost.

[mynazzaraxxsyn]

Please up vital strike to 50%.

Also, give rogues triple and quadruple attack.

Lost.

Bitter much?

[Malia]

Its just the ranger chant 'Whine Whine Whine Whine... Whine Whine Whine Whine'

I agree the ranger class sucks ass but find a more constructive way of making suggestions instead of just whining about everyone else.

[Waelos]

Whine about everyone else? Well, I guess that statement would be true since just about everyone and their mothers has a rogue ;) Otherwise, I am afaid you're pretty much wrong Malia. I don't complain about everyone else, or much else. There is a severe balance issue with rogues, we all know it, but nothing is being done. When I see a post complaining about the frequency of an ability of a class that has an overabundance of ability, skill, etc, it begs for a response.

Sure this post wasn't at all constructive, but I've made quite a generous number of suggestions for balance and class changes. *shrug* I've played the good little soldier. You know that. If you want to call me out on something Mal, feel free, but this isn't the issue. Dismiss it as rangerwhining if you want, but no one can deny that things are out of whack.

Anyway, have a super day!

Lost

[Malia]

How is a rogue unbalanced.. just curious.. and dont go into pvp cuz we dont have pkill on this mud and anything that happens on chaos doesnt even count.. so go ahead and tell me how they are unbalanced.

[Jegzed]

Rogues are unbalanced, and some of the reasons are.

1) They got sneak/hide, which throws entire zones out of wack.
2) They got assassinate, which is a cheesy ass skill, which works way too often and makes fights easier.
3) They outdamage rangers and dires by a silly amount in combat, and are usually much sturdier.

[Ashiwi]

Rogues are unbalanced, and some of the reasons are.

1) They got sneak/hide, which throws entire zones out of wack.
2) They got assassinate, which is a cheesy ass skill, which works way too often and makes fights easier.
3) They outdamage rangers and dires by a silly amount in combat, and are usually much sturdier.

1) Well if we couldn't be folded to, it wouldn't be a problem half the time. I've always been a fan of making the heart of most zones !tele in all ways, with only one or two rooms as exceptions,which people could use to tele from in bad situations... any elf worth their salt could get you where you want to go without a rogue's help. Hell, with spam and a little luck, most of the mud could walk into the heart of MD.

2) It also fails more than you seem to think, and is unusable on a great deal of higher level mobs. This skill has gotten me killed more than zoning has.

3) Last time somebody checked Wey still outdamaged me. As for sturdiness... that's a racial choice, because there's no way in hell I'm gonna be considered sturdier than any ranger with my diminutive little hitpoints and paltry AC. Heck, I wear a lot of decent AC gear, and still can't approach the protection a ranger does, but that's just the way it goes.

I'm not complaining, and I'm not saying the rogue class isn't a little overpowered... if it's used that way. The seriously twinky aspect of rogues is only overpowered when you combine it with a tele class which can get the entire group past the obstacles in a zone, the same obstacles which give value to the rewards the zone offers. We already know that caster classes are going to kick rogues' butts, hands down, when it comes to soloing stuff, and don't I keep hearing how melee can't compete with casters on the damage dealt in a zone? We're part of melee, even though we're sitting closer to the long end of that stick than other melee classes, and my damage is never going to compete with an invoker's damage, or any caster that can cast area spells. We're not hurting, but we're far from the best damage dealers in the game.

Feh, this argument is going to just keep coming up, just like the arguments that every other class is overpowered/underpowered/not what people want it to be. There are a lot of things in this game that I wish I could do, but I realize that as a rogue I will never be able to accomplish them, unlike certain other classes. There are some things I can do better than some other classes, but there's very little I can do that Inama can't.... VERY little. In fact, she doesn't really need me for anything besides picking the occasional lock. Actually, it's kind of depressing how little she needs me. ::sniffle::

Rogues are one of the few classes that people are happy with. Their exp tables are too lenient compared to other classes, which makes them easier to level, which gives even the people who don't have the patience for exp a taste of what the high levels are like. You want a class that everybody and their mother would have one of? Go ahead and lower caster class exp tables and see what happens.

Personally I think it should be even harder to max rogue skills, and that their exp tables should be a little more daunting than they are. I think major para poison should be non-existant, or at the very least a major quest, but non-existant would be preferable. I think there should be a chance of poisoning yourself when applying poison, although maybe not a 45% chance at high skill levels ::whap Rags::. I think mobs should have a chance of seeing you when you're sneaking through their room, and that you shouldn't be able to sit around and spam sneak in order to practice it. I think mobs should have a chance at tracking us when we're sneaking and hidden, if they're aggro us, but we should be given a new skill which would allow us to cover our tracks if successful, so even when the skill is maxed the mobs would have a small chance of finding us and kicking our asses (not like that fiasco when the whole code surrounding hide and sneak was changed so drastically). I think more zones should be !tele, because it's not just the rogues that can sneak past all the mobs, but not the entire zone because zones you can't get out of once you get into them are just annoying (there's a room in UM2 that burns constantly... you go inside it and you take damage every round... what a great option for a teleportable room).

There's a lot of little fixes that could be made to the rogue class without ruining the skills that make the class so enjoyable.

Or you could just remove the rogue class entirely and give casters the "knock" and "disarm traps" spells.

[Malia]

sneak/hide is good for 2 thing cr and learning zone layout. Besides that any elf can sneak through mobs if you know the zone. I have done muspel umpteen times without a rogue, including invasion with an illu and a grey elf.. *roll* not my fault you rolled someone without sneak, or that you dont go lead the zone and learn it better.

Assassinate is a useful skill, but we are the only form of assassin on this this mud, its 1x per 24 rl min. Success rate is alot lower then most think, all you see and remember are the successes. You dont see then 4 other tries during zone that we fail, or the times solo that we fail, get bashed, and die, then solo our cr cuz we are too embarassed to say we got smote skill practicing.

Only reason they out damage you is totaly eq based, wey is one of the top equiped rangers, i think i have a decently equiped rogue for strictly damage, and hes gonna out damage me every time. He gets more average attacks, he has better average dice on weapons, and has more damage overall then me. Rogues usualy out damage ranger/tanks because we chose not to worry bout ac and hp where as tanks need both and alot of rangers chose to wear both. i zone with 510 hp ac -35 usualy and 0 ss -4 sv br So that i can increase my damage.

A good rogue is strickly skill based, both actualy player skill, and the actual skill abilities. Where as, most other class are eq dependant a rogue is not.

Only thing i see as being overpowered is our exp tables. I measured this with a lvl 49 Elementalist trying to get 50, where as i am already 50. We were both at 82% mark. I was 31% into my next lvl before she got lvl. so i got 49% to her 18% I think tink that is a bit wacked.

[thanuk]

Only thing i see as being overpowered is our exp tables. I measured this with a lvl 49 Elementalist trying to get 50, where as i am already 50. We were both at 82% mark. I was 31% into my next lvl before she got lvl. so i got 49% to her 18% I think tink that is a bit wacked.

Dude, comeon now:) You have a weapon that heals you. You have 2 separate skills to stop casting. You do the most melee damage in the game, barring one ranger with a bag full of the elitist eq this game has to offer. You have a skill that avoids area spell damage. You can avoid any mob that is aggro to you. You can attempt to instakill a level 50 mob once every half hour. You can walk around aggro highlevel zones with total impunity.

IMO, give trip to rangers, lose garrote and evade, or give evade to all melee classes, and lower its effectivenes(and can't work if you are tanking anything). hide/sneak is what it is, up to the zone writers to deal with it as they see fit. Assassinate should be 1/week instead of 1/day, but make it more successful when you have it maxed out, like 90% success rate at max skill. Lower the cap on disarm. Rogues have a good niche. They're scouts, they do alot of damage, they have good utility, can't tank very well. Its all the extra stuff you have on top of that that makes them overpowered.

[Yayaril]

8)

What do you mean we can't tank, Thanuk? I tanked roots and vault. The vault run had no stoner, too.

[Malia]

Judging the rogue by his eq isnt fair. Just because i have this weapon that does this or that item that does that isnt fair to judge the class itself on. SO what if I personly outdamage most melee, dude i got 0 ss and -4 sv br. spells usualy kick my ass and dragons chew me up and spit me out.. I have 510 hp zonin.. you are normaly around 1200+ I chose to get my damage as high as i could where others might chose to wear ac or ss over that spot where i chose to wear damage. Rangers as well can chose to wear the damage instead of wearing the ac and ss. This is all mute point because this is all eq basded and anyone is gonna hit harder with better eq. Shevy also said that more epic weapons were comming in.

Rogues have Evade, Rangers have Natural blessing which also increases hit/dam so they can wear even more damage and still hit.

Rogues avoiding mobs that are aggr to us - well druid and rangers both have pwt which is usuable in alot of areas. Its alot harder to get sneak/hide up then you think with an aggr mob tracking you. All 3 can sneak through most zones no problem if you know the zone. Both druids and Rangers can trans via plants if they chose to use it to get out of a zone where as i gotta walk my ass out.

Assassinate i covered earlier, roll a rogue get it to lvl 40 and use assassinate before you flame it. All most people see are the successes. They dont see the 4 tries before that earlier in the zone that we failed or the times we try to practice and fail, get bashed and die, then go cr and not say shit cuz we are embarassed we died doing skill practices. It takes MONTHS to notch this skill. I make like 20 attempts a day and havent notched in a month. My assassinate is at 87 and ya'll know how much I play. Nuf said.

You can walk around aggro highlevel zones with total impunity - 1) it takes alot to notch sneak/hide to 95 (yes you can sit there and bot it, but you get caged or deleted or lvl docked if you do, so why risk it) 2) its not 100% and can make for really tough cr. 3)any elf can do just about the same thing if you know the zone. I dont know how many times i asked lil if she wanted me to sneak into something, she goes nope, im already there.. 4) this is one of the cool rogue skills that define rogues.

I said earlier that i think Rangers are underpowered, i sure as heck dont look for a ranger to fill a slot, most of the timeunless i know ya i usualy go 13 or 14 in a group instead of filling it with a ranger. There are a ton of ideas for rangers to get upgraded. I can add my own thoughts but shrug not on this thread. Exept for the exp on rogues i think they are a well rounded class that most others should be brought into par with instead of downgrading melee further.

[Ambar]

he kept braggin he'd get 63 before i'd hit 50 :P it was close, too!

*hugs Pava*

[thanuk]

Judging a rogue by eq is completely fair. You have to judge every melee class by eq, because eq is their baseline. I need a shield to bash, a sword to parry, a weapon to disarm. You need a dagger to backstab, a wire to garrote, well you get where im going with this.

BTW I know you didn't just compare evade to nature's blessing:) Maybe PWT and evade are on the same level, but nature's blessing is nothing important.

Anyway, I hear where you're coming from on assassinate. That's why I said you should be able to use it less often but it should land most of the time when you do.

Otherwise your defending points i agree with you on. Sneak/hide is what it is, I personally think elf sneak is alot cheesier than rogue hide/sneak, but I got a grey elf and an elvenkind so im not gonna start complaining now. I see no reason to lower a rogues damage output either, considering its all single target damage and therefore a drop in the bucket compared to area spells. All of those fit your niche, and they work. Hell even the khanjari is what it is, I'd rather see it stay the same so the jokes can live on then to have it downgraded. Its just the other stuff rogues get on top of those niche skills that are unbalancing.

Stopping casting. Avoiding area damage. Do rogues really need to have these abilities on top of everything listed above? I don't think so. Well, maybe avoiding area damage, but they shouldn't have the market cornered on it. Give it to rangers as well. Hell give it to warriors too, but throw a low cap on it like 50 or so, maybe it saves us once in a blue moon. Take trip away from rogues, give it to rangers, take bash away from rangers(what ranger wears a shield?). Lose garrote entirely. Even if all that stuff happened, rogues would still be badass. But as they are now, they do everything you could want from melee aside from tanking. That doesn't leave much for rangers to do except hold the pop at the zone edge.

[Malia]

Id rather see an upgrade to rangers in itself, then downgrading one to upgraing another.. gonna start a thread on constructive idead for rangers.. cuz we all know they need some love

[belleshel]

well druid and rangers both have pwt which is usuable in alot of areas. Both druids and Rangers can trans via plants if they chose to use it to get out of a zone where as i gotta walk my ass out.

Just to clear this up;) TVP only works from nature room to nature room in the same zone. There are very few zones where this comes in handy. Basically it can save you a little time in some small zones on prime. Or luring in Jot/Muspel. Very limited in where it can be used.