Underpowered rogues

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Ihazim
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:01 am

Underpowered rogues

Postby Ihazim » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:15 am

i've noticed recently there has been a decline in rogues available to zone, i assume because they dont do enuf damage. What about adding triple or quadruple attack? Or possibly upgrading khanjari dagger? Serious replies please!
Snurgt
Sojourner
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Re: Underpowered rogues

Postby Snurgt » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:19 am

Ihazim wrote: What about adding triple or quadruple attack? Or possibly upgrading khanjari dagger? Serious replies please!


I'd have to agree. I think you're right on the money with this one. Either add more attacks or add more damage to khanjari or other rogue weapons. Either solution would put rogues more in balance with the rest of the melee classes.
Galem
Sojourner
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 6:01 am

Re: Underpowered rogues

Postby Galem » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:37 am

Snurgt wrote:
Ihazim wrote: What about adding triple or quadruple attack? Or possibly upgrading khanjari dagger? Serious replies please!


I'd have to agree. I think you're right on the money with this one. Either add more attacks or add more damage to khanjari or other rogue weapons. Either solution would put rogues more in balance with the rest of the melee classes.


Personally I play a rogue as well and adding more power to a weapon or weapons is not going to help but only does people with those particular weapons. Yes add more power to my dagger woohoo, big deal. You are not trying to solve "The Problem", but only "your problem". You are forgetting those people even newbies that won't get that weapon till way way later in the game. Yes I think adding another attack will be best, but just upgrading a weapon or weapons, bah you are been a cry baby. My 2c
Snurgt
Sojourner
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Re: Underpowered rogues

Postby Snurgt » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:43 am

Galem wrote: Yes I think adding another attack will be best


Thats true, you make a good point. I have to agree, I think adding triple or quadruple attack would be better to bring rogue melee into balance with the other melee classes.
Kaede
Sojourner
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Kaede » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:44 am

Hmm, I dunno. I think adding attacks or improving weapons would make rogues infringe upon the ranger's domain of single target melee damage.

I think we need to look into other things to make rogues more desirable to groups. Some suggestions I'd have would be giving rogues riposte, dimensional fold, and maybe even inferno (this is debatable).
Alomlim
Sojourner
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Alomlim » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:05 am

Kaede's post edited for brevity
I think adding attacks... would make rogues... damage.


Good point Kaede, and well said. The MUD is really coming together on this one; more attacks for rogues is what's needed to get them into groups.

This will nicely solve the oft discussed "melee / caster" balance as a bonus!
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:40 am

Really, I think I have a few rogue-flavor upgrades that would round the class out perfectly:

Add quad attack (this goes without saying)

Give rogues a shadow step ability. Like the shadow dancer PRC from D&D. .. only make it relocate. also, I don't think it should have lag.

Give them back throwing knives. Make them able to use it as an alternative to melee (while tanking) so they can avoid fireshield. Allow them to do this with their wielded daggers so they get procs too.

Give them "Elaborate Parry" - activatable 3x per day acts as stoneskin for damage reduction up to lvl 41, then after 41 it acts as dragonscales.

Give them "Supreme Dodge" - this will allow them to tank almost as good as a mounted paladin.

And finally, give them "Sneaky Healing" At random, this skill will act as a cure potion (light, moderate, critical, heal, full heal) on the target. This represents the rogue's ability to find things that he/she needs on the fly.

That should cover it!

Lost!
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:41 am

Ragorn's plan for bringing Rogues into balance with other melee classes:

- Remove sneak and hide skills, replace with a more generic "stealth" skill. Make stealth a charisma-based applied skill with 16 rounds of lag upon activation. Code so that all mobs with infravision, ultravision, or detect invisibility see through stealth (realism code).

- Remove backstab and circle skills, replace with 3rd edition "Sneak Attack" skill. Require rogue to position himself behind target; that is, one room away (in the direction the party is heading) or on the other side of a mob in a narrow room.

- Give apply poison a chance to poison the rogue, like a fumble. Make the probability something realistic... like 45%. Additionally, give the chance for a critical fumble, simulating what would happen if the rogue dropped the vial of poison and it splashed out all over everyone. In this case, poison the entire party and aggro all mobs in the room on the rogue.

- Require rogues to maintain "chaotic neutral" alignment, all rogue skills only usable between -450 and -425 alignment.

- Add a 5th circle Enchanter spell called "dagger shield" which makes all mobs invulnerable to piercing weapons below +5 enchantment.

- Bring rogue's exp tables more in line with other classes. Like, say, Enchanters.

Perfect balance!
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:26 am

Ragorn wrote:- Bring rogue's exp tables more in line with other classes. Like, say, Enchanters.


Yes! Was group with a level 27-28 rogue tonight with my 25-26 warrior. He was getting 5% a kill to my 1% and I had none of the mobs on trophy.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:55 am

Agree wey, could also give them some sorta pet, like a captive they have, perhaps some sort of grey elf, not sure which class...
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:44 pm

I think what is truly missing from rogues is the Group assassinate ability. This would allow rogues to kill every mob in the room with one attack.

Of course it would only work on mobs that were up to level 62 and it would ignore any fireshield/coldshield.
Cirath
Sojourner
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Cirath » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:04 pm

If you are going to post ridiculous threads like this, can it please be done in general discussion?
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:12 pm

You know what rogues need? They need some way to heal themselves, they need a way to boost their damage by about 50% for a short duration, and they need a way to get a whole bunch of extra attacks every once in a while. I figure it should cost about 100 p.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Snurgt
Sojourner
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Snurgt » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:16 pm

thanuk wrote:I figure it should cost about 100 p.


Truthfully I agree with all of your points. Except!

I think 100 plat is a little outrageous considering the cost of poisons, garrote wires, etc. Maybe 50 plat max. But I think you have some good ideas here, i'd like to here some staff members opinions. I think there are alot of great ideas in this entire thread actually.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:26 pm

Quad attack, ways to heal ourselves, room assassinate...

I already have these skills. Don't you guys read the helpfiles???
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:43 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Quad attack, ways to heal ourselves, room assassinate...

I already have these skills. Don't you guys read the helpfiles???


They finished the khanjari help file?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:04 pm

lower rogue damage, let them be a more utility class then damage, leave that to rangers. give em another interesting skill to play with as a consolation prize.

Pava whispers something to her enchanted khanjari dagger.
The room errupts into a blazing INFERNO!
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:08 pm

Gormal wrote:lower rogue damage, let them be a more utility class then damage, leave that to rangers. give em another interesting skill to play with as a consolation prize.

Pava whispers something to her enchanted khanjari dagger.
The room errupts into a blazing INFERNO!


No melee class needs to have it's damage downed. If you want to upgrade ranger damage thats fine by me, but trying to balance other classes based on current ranger damage, is silly.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:17 pm

I don't think a rogues primary role shouldl be damage. Why do you bring a ranger to a group: Damage.

Rogue = damage, pick lock, sneak/hide, trip, garrote... warriors dont do damage and we're melee too.
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:39 pm

Gormal wrote:Why do you bring a ranger to a group: Damage.


Actually there are only 3 reasons to bring a ranger:
1) You know the leader (or the leader knows of you)
2) You are the leader
3) You can't find anyone else to fill spots

Granted I do think the rangers should be the tops in the way of melee damage, but until melee become a more significant part of the game, its a moot point. I've heard 'we need a: clerics, invoker, enchanter, rogue, illy, shaman, warrior, or even a necro/ele. I have yet to hear we need a ranger;)

Guess my point is that rogue damage isn't overpowering, I don't see a need for it going lower.

Not bitter!
Belle
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:43 pm

Rangers have a permanent spot in seelie and seers groups!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Werg
Sojourner
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 5:01 am
Location: da Swamp
Contact:

Postby Werg » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:32 pm

omg this is turning into a serious thread! Usually it's the other way around.
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:10 pm

Everyone please keep in mind that while we bitch about rogues, we all agree that we'd much rather see invokers get a downgrade.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:15 pm

Gormal wrote:we all agree that we'd much rather see invokers get a downgrade.


No I'd rather see sorcs.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:18 pm

Gormal wrote:Everyone please keep in mind that while we bitch about rogues, we all agree that we'd much rather see invokers get a downgrade.


Actually invokers should be able to blow junk up area wise, probably not as well as they do now. I actually think the biggest problem is all the area's of other classes. Area's should be the invokers 'nich' they probably do too much already, but its all the other area spells that really add up to sku balance.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:21 pm

Rogues need:

Creeping Daggers Skill (rot + doom for 8 rounds. No wait, 16!) that doesn't dispel their Hide!

Summon Shadow Giant skill (55th level giant size wraith form cleric/mage/illusionist/rogue oh yeah and warrior 90%MR 3,000 hp pets. Rogue can summon up to 5 at once!)

Innate Gond's Minigun


There you go! :)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:11 am

Disguise Box

Lets you pull a Metal Gear-like cardboard box over your head, completely baffling all mobs. Allows you to walk through zones with complete impunity.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:15 am

Ragorn wrote:Disguise Box

Lets you pull a Metal Gear-like cardboard box over your head, completely baffling all mobs. Allows you to walk through zones with complete impunity.


But only if you use the box that most fits that zone's theme.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Delmair Aamoren
Sojourner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Contact:

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:43 pm

This thread is a joke, right?














Any thread that starts with the idea of triple or quadruple attack is just plain silly. go back to the uberpowergamermud you came from. rogues, as it is, do more damage than the other melee classes by a large amount by what i can figure. with the change in needs for hitroll, it has allowed them even more damroll and further increase that margin. The problem with rogues is the problem that plagues all of the mud. MELEE. fix this, balance it out, and poof! solution to most melee related dmg/etc problems. This is almost getting as rediculous as the ranger threads!
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:50 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:This thread is a joke, right?


Nope, we are all totally serious.
Delmair Aamoren
Sojourner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Contact:

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:55 pm

Ok, i want whatever you all are smokin then. sounds like some good stuff.
Reyek
Sojourner
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:04 am

Postby Reyek » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:05 pm

Waelos wrote:And finally, give them "Sneaky Healing"


I love this idea, and the name too! I think they should also have "Sneaky Group-Healing" and "Sneaky Inferno". I think with these skills rogues will FINALLY be up to par with other classes like rangers.

-Reyek-
Stamm
Sojourner
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Stamm » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:56 pm

What about a command deceptive manipulation, which enables a rogue to manipulate their dagger so that it appears to be a khanjari, but actually isn't.

So while it would function as a khanjari in all ways, it would only do this to mobs that didn't disbelieve it.

The disbelieve command should be for illusionists only, and because of the nature of it, should cause them to be unable to create illusion spells for 5 game hours.
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:09 pm

Wait, what about triple or quadruple wield? Shouldn't Khanjaris be able to wield other Khanjaris?

Nokie places an enchanted khanjari dagger in the back of a noble palace guard, resulting in some noise and a lot of blood!
An enchanted khanjari dagger places an enchanted khanjari dagger in the back of a noble palace guard, resulting in some noise and a lot of blood!
Nokie places an enchanted khanjari dagger in the back of a noble palace guard, resulting in some noise and a lot of blood!
An enchanted khanjari dagger places an enchanted khanjari dagger in the back of a noble palace guard, resulting in some noise, a lot of blood, and a corpse!
A noble palace guard is dead! R.I.P.
You receive your share of experience.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Ihazim
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ihazim » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:41 pm

box should be added to the disguise list, i agree.
A box of oranges group-says 'crap'

Your skin crawls as you hear a death cry nearby!

A box of oranges stops following you.
A box of oranges consent lost.
Nokie
Sojourner
Posts: 786
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Contact:

Postby Nokie » Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:48 pm

What I find funny is that you can take this thread and change every occurrence of the word 'rogue' with 'ranger' and it ends up looking quite similar to the numerous ranger upgrade threads :)
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:38 pm

methinks someone missed the sarcasm of this thread....
Mitharx
Sojourner
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:01 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, 63129

Postby Mitharx » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:39 am

Maybe rogues should get innate detect sarcasm?
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:19 pm

Personally I think we just need one new skill... the "bling bling flash." Using this skill we could create justified envy and raise our prestige score at the same time. For elves it should be innate, but other races should be able to spam it to raise their skill level in the false hope that they could some day have the bling bling score of the obviously superior elves.
Kossuth
Staff Member - Admin
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Kossuth » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:34 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Personally I think we just need one new skill... the "bling bling flash." Using this skill we could create justified envy and raise our prestige score at the same time. For elves it should be innate, but other races should be able to spam it to raise their skill level in the false hope that they could some day have the bling bling score of the obviously superior elves.


I can't believe you said bling-bling in 2004!
Kossuth -- TorilMUD Administrator

Astine OOC: 'ask not what I do to your mom, ask what my mom will do to you'

Return to “T2 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest